Dean Winchester Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Is that an official quote? If so it is disgusting and distasteful on the day of this atrocity. Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk Paraphrased I think. Russian President Vladimir Putin: "This tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on this land, if the military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine. "And, certainly, the state over whose territory this occurred bears responsibility for this awful tragedy." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 You could say that about pretty much anything. For all we know the UK could have the biggest military capability in the world. I'd say that's pretty unlikely though. It's fairly standard to form an opinion based on the facts available to you. I get what you are saying but we are talking the USA here. I'd hazard a guess and say they are quite powerful and a formidable force for anyone to take on. What gets me the most is people who run to the internet to get stuck into them. There's some right idiots in this country who continually belittle their own or their allies but they'd be the first to look for help and hide behind the ones they slag off if we ever did get to the nitty gritty of war. Almost gloating about other countries power as if they are proud of it. Puzzling stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToYouToMe Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I get what you are saying but we are talking the USA here. I'd hazard a guess and say they are quite powerful and a formidable force for anyone to take on. What gets me the most is people who run to the internet to get stuck into them. There's some right idiots in this country who continually belittle their own or their allies but they'd be the first to look for help and hide behind the ones they slag off if we ever did get to the nitty gritty of war. Almost gloating about other countries power as if they are proud of it. Puzzling stuff? The same types no doubt who think Tommy Sheridan and George Galloway are intellectual giants. Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambos_1874 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 For those doubting the military strength of the US compared to Russia, please see here: http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.asp?form=form&country1=united-states-of-america&country2=russia&Submit=Compare+Countries Porbably not particularly accurate but it puts things in to persepective. Back on topic, this is absolutely shocking news. I hope those responsible are located and punished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabba Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 People presuming to know what action any nations will take want to give it a rest. Also, point scoring and bickering on a topic like this, get a ******* grip of yourselves. John Kerry has already released a statement saying that if it was Russian backed separatists then this could see the US supplying Ukraine with military hardware to defend themselves and that would "just be the start". None of us have any idea how far this could go, there's no way that anyone can rule out more nations becoming involved in the conflict. Fingers crossed that doesn't happen. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I'm not going to drag this off topic but I'd suggest people have very good arguments for not being all that keen on the view that the USA are the worlds leading light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 When Lockerbie occurred, did the US invade Iran or Syria, the perpetrators? No, they framed a Libyan for political reasons. In a similar fashion, the maximum political capital will be extracted from Russia in the aftermath of this event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabba Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 When Lockerbie occurred, did the US invade Iran or Syria, the perpetrators? No, they framed a Libyan for political reasons. In a similar fashion, the maximum political capital will be extracted from Russia in the aftermath of this event. Hopefully so. If those tweets from the former Russian agent are genuine then I bet he disappears in the near future. He's probably just forced Russia to pull out of Ukraine and cost them billions. Let's hope that's the way it goes. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 These are different times. In some ways more unpredictable. They were different times as well, y'know. Just saying. From a geopolitical and strategic perspective, what's your sense of why I posted what I posted? And in what way does the fact that 2014 is different to 1983 matter in that context? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Seems at the moment that it is straight forward, Russia has been arming the rebels, and to help them sent these anti-air missiles to shoot down Ukraine military planes, this has been successful. Today the rebels shot down what they thought was a Ukraine military plane but was a commercial airliner. There will be much sabre rattling over the coming weeks, the West blaming Russia for arming the rebels with such weapons and calling for them to end their support. Russia will call this unfortunate and regrettable, but says the rebels have the right to defend themselves against Ukraine's unjust government, they will call for the rebels to ensure such a tragedy will never happen again. US and Europe will increase sanctions, Russia will retaliate with similar diplomatic actions. But nothing huge will happen. Airliners actually have a history of getting shot down near tense areas and its quite common. Think the US shot down an Iranian airliner in the late 80s early 90s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydney Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 There is a big medical conference in Melbourne this week, and some of the people on the plane were heading to it. We've lost some fantastic medical minds in this incident - one fo the world's leading researchers into HIV has been confirmed as dead. I am more angry about this event than I have been about anything for a long time. It will be another case of **** ups causing this. No one wanted to shoot down a Malaysian Airlines plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabba Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 There is a big medical conference in Melbourne this week, and some of the people on the plane were heading to it. We've lost some fantastic medical minds in this incident - one fo the world's leading researchers into HIV has been confirmed as dead. I am more angry about this event than I have been about anything for a long time. It will be another case of **** ups causing this. No one wanted to shoot down a Malaysian Airlines plane. They reckon there were a lot of AIDS and HIV specialists on board. A huge loss for medical advancement if true. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Cue some tinfoil wearer claiming that the cure for AIDS has been killed off by the CIA/shape shifting lizards/Bilderbergers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peebo Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 There really are some remarkably clueless posts on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 You've got 300 civilian deaths caused by a bunch of pro-Russian Ukrainian terrorists. I reckon the help the Ukraine has been looking for in wiping these guys out will not be shortcoming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Malatov Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 The New York Times has released audio clips that Ukarine apparently intercepted from the separatists. http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/europe/100000003007434/intercepted-audio-of-ukraine-separatists.html?smid=tw-nytimesworld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabba Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) Heard the translations on the radio this morning on my way to work (in WA). A major was on the scene and passing on messages that they had shot down a passenger plane and not an enemy plane. There's seemingly no doubt who it was or that they were unaware it was civilian. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited July 18, 2014 by Jabba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 God knows where this is going to go. One thing's for sure though - time to kick the shit out of Putin. He's had it coming for years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Seems at the moment that it is straight forward, Russia has been arming the rebels, and to help them sent these anti-air missiles to shoot down Ukraine military planes, this has been successful. Today the rebels shot down what they thought was a Ukraine military plane but was a commercial airliner. There will be much sabre rattling over the coming weeks, the West blaming Russia for arming the rebels with such weapons and calling for them to end their support. Russia will call this unfortunate and regrettable, but says the rebels have the right to defend themselves against Ukraine's unjust government, they will call for the rebels to ensure such a tragedy will never happen again. US and Europe will increase sanctions, Russia will retaliate with similar diplomatic actions. But nothing huge will happen. Airliners actually have a history of getting shot down near tense areas and its quite common. Think the US shot down an Iranian airliner in the late 80s early 90s. IIRC Europe has no sanctions in place to increase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim Tall Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) This isn't actually even the first time a passenger planes been shot down over/near Ukraine. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 For the record I'm not linking the two, just stating a fact. Edited July 18, 2014 by Ibrahim Tall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paolo Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 It is amazing how many people on here seem to know what happened, know who is to blame, and know what should or will happen next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 IIRC Europe has no sanctions in place to increase. The EU have just put sanctions on Russia over the last few days, I'm pretty sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 IIRC Europe has no sanctions in place to increase. Exactly. Germany drives Europe and Germany needs Russian gas - so no EU sanctions. Interesting to see what happens next on that front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToYouToMe Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Exactly. Germany drives Europe and Germany needs Russian gas - so no EU sanctions. Interesting to see what happens next on that front. Well Germany needs to diversify and quickly. Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarlos Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 People presuming to know what action any nations will take want to give it a rest. Also, point scoring and bickering on a topic like this, get a ******* grip of yourselves. John Kerry has already released a statement saying that if it was Russian backed separatists then this could see the US supplying Ukraine with military hardware to defend themselves and that would "just be the start". None of us have any idea how far this could go, there's no way that anyone can rule out more nations becoming involved in the conflict. Fingers crossed that doesn't happen. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Why shouldn't people discuss and debate the ramifications? This is a forum after all. Of course we shouldn't resort to point scoring and bickering but it seems like you're suggesting we shouldn't be speculating at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticJambo Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 There is a big medical conference in Melbourne this week, and some of the people on the plane were heading to it. We've lost some fantastic medical minds in this incident - one fo the world's leading researchers into HIV has been confirmed as dead. I am more angry about this event than I have been about anything for a long time. It will be another case of **** ups causing this. No one wanted to shoot down a Malaysian Airlines plane. This is what grinds on me. We, as in the general public, lay-folks are essentially in the hands of experts who should know better. Why are commercial airlines for example being allowed to fly over such a volatile airspace irrespective of ceiling height. Why is it even possible for a tracking system to be turned off on a 300 million dollar plane. Far more money needs to be invested in systems analysis and risk management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMA MAROON Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 You've got 300 civilian deaths caused by a bunch of pro-Russian Ukrainian terrorists. I reckon the help the Ukraine has been looking for in wiping these guys out will not be shortcoming. An eye for an eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GhostHunter Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Why are all the reports now not confirming if any Americans were on board ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Nips Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Why are all the reports now not confirming if any Americans were on board ? I noticed that on the BBC report. BBC also saying: "Pictures have emerged showing a convoy of pro-Russian militants allegedly transporting the Buk surface-to-air system to the location from which it supposedly shot down the Malaysian airliner. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabba Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Why shouldn't people discuss and debate the ramifications? This is a forum after all. Of course we shouldn't resort to point scoring and bickering but it seems like you're suggesting we shouldn't be speculating at all. That's not what I was suggesting. My point was aimed at people dismissing certain courses of action out of hand and thinking they know for sure how it will pan out. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All roads lead to Gorgie Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Well Germany needs to diversify and quickly. Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk Flying over Germany recently I was surprised by the number of wind farms, so I think they are moving in that direction but gas still drives their economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) Well Germany needs to diversify and quickly. Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk They won't - they will do exactly what's in Germany's best interests and will bully the rest of Europe into falling in line with them. The EU having been on of the main instigators in the Ukraine crisis have been prominent in their failure to take any really meaningful action to curb the Russians expansionist ambitions there. There can only really be one reason for their rather feeble behaviour and that is Germany's reliance on Russian natural gas. Edited July 18, 2014 by Deevers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 It is amazing how many people on here seem to know what happened, know who is to blame, and know what should or will happen next. I think most people are capable of adding 2 and 2, that's all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart MacD Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I hope the US (at least McCain and Kerry) doesn't start tut-tutting at countries who supply sophisticated weaponry to non-governmental organisations (or to nasty governments). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Now reported that a couple of Newcastle Utd fans on way to New Zealand to support the club have died on this flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All roads lead to Gorgie Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 The claim that the black boxes have been sent to Russia worries me. Next we will hear they are so damaged that no data can be recovered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart MacD Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I wonder how long it will take before the Australians agitate for the next World Cup to be stripped from Russia, just so their woefully own underdeveloped football infrastructure can host it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabba Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 The claim that the black boxes have been sent to Russia worries me. Next we will hear they are so damaged that no data can be recovered. That's a horrendous attempt at covering up the facts. The US were demanding the crash site remain untouched for an independent inquiry. That's the polar opposite. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 They won't - they will do exactly what's in Germany's best interests and will bully the rest of Europe into falling in line with them. The EU having been on of the main instigators in the Ukraine crisis have been prominent in their failure to take any really meaningful action to curb the Russians expansionist ambitions there. There can only really be one reason for their rather feeble behaviour and that is Germany's reliance on Russian natural gas. They won't - they will do exactly what's in Germany's best interests and will bully the rest of Europe into falling in line with them. The EU having been on of the main instigators in the Ukraine crisis have been prominent in their failure to take any really meaningful action to curb the Russians expansionist ambitions there. There can only really be one reason for their rather feeble behaviour and that is Germany's reliance on Russian natural gas. But if the Germans "run" the EU, why would the EU get so involved in the Ukraine in the first place, thus antagonising Russia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All roads lead to Gorgie Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 That's a horrendous attempt at covering up the facts. The US were demanding the crash site remain untouched for an independent inquiry. That's the polar opposite. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Not confirmed but if true proves the rebels are in closed cahoots with the Russian authorities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 But if the Germans "run" the EU, why would the EU get so involved in the Ukraine in the first place, thus antagonising Russia? All about expansionism and markets Boris. The EU encouraged Ukraine to start the process of becoming part of it little thinking that it would have the consequences that it did have. The Russians have become alarmed at the EU knocking on their door and "stealing" what they see as their area of influence. This was always going to have unpleasant consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Say What Again Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 That's a horrendous attempt at covering up the facts. The US were demanding the crash site remain untouched for an independent inquiry. That's the polar opposite. Had the crash happened on US soil, and Russia demanded the crash site remain untouched, do you think American would have complied and not touched the black box? I can't see it myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Russia now claiming that there was radar activity from a Ukrainian BUK missile system, supposedly. It wisnae me honest officer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Had the crash happened on US soil, and Russia demanded the crash site remain untouched, do you think American would have complied and not touched the black box? I can't see it myself. The problem arises in what is done with the Black Box and if it is handed over to the air investigators without having been interfered with. Time will tell if the box has been tampered with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabba Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Had the crash happened on US soil, and Russia demanded the crash site remain untouched, do you think American would have complied and not touched the black box? I can't see it myself. Not for a minute mate. Doesn't make it any more acceptable though. I heard reports of them picking through the wreckage pretty much as soon as they arrived on the scene. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 We should be bombing the Kremlin by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 We should be bombing the Kremlin by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 This. Dis. Dat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Not for a minute mate. Doesn't make it any more acceptable though. I heard reports of them picking through the wreckage pretty much as soon as they arrived on the scene. No doubt looting any of the valuables they could find! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewis2006 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I wonder how long it will take before the Australians agitate for the next World Cup to be stripped from Russia, just so their woefully own underdeveloped football infrastructure can host it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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