Malaysian Airlines plane down over Ukraine/Russia border [SEE ADMIN WARNING ABOUT PICS/VIDS]

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

No I'm happy to respond to the discussion. I am allowed to.

 

So everyone here thinks there is no such thing as personal culpability, so that everything bad that happens to them is someone elses fault.

 

On the logical extension that all the passengers are therefore to blame - its slighlty different. If the passengers were told that this flight was going to overfly Ukraine, and that there was a war on, but everything should be OK, do you think they would have boarded?

 

Seriously - to the people that are flaming me on this thread - if you had been told the route was going directly over a war zone, with protagonists having access to sophisticated military technology, would you still have boarded the plane?

 

Based on your flaming me, you will all have to answer Yes, in which case you would all have died. Myself, I would most definately not have boarded that plane.

Yes, I would have boarded the plane with that info.

[deesidejambo]

Your waiting to cross at a set of traffic lights, the green light comes on so you begin to cross - a drunk driver runs a red light and runs you over. Is it your fault for crossing the road?

 

 

No, but you have culpable if you didn't look before stepping on the road. Just because the green man is on doesn't mean there is no danger. In other words there is still a need for you to personally assess the risk before you cross, green man or not.

[deesidejambo]

Yes, I would have boarded the plane with that info.

 

Then you would be dead. Thats the risk you took, which is fine - we all have to make these decisions,but you are therefore personally culpable.

[Deevers]

 

 

No I'm happy to respond to the discussion. I am allowed to.

 

So everyone here thinks there is no such thing as personal culpability, so that everything bad that happens to them is someone elses fault.

 

On the logical extension that all the passengers are therefore to blame - its slighlty different. If the passengers were told that this flight was going to overfly Ukraine, and that there was a war on, but everything should be OK, do you think they would have boarded?

 

Seriously - to the people that are flaming me on this thread - if you had been told the route was going directly over a war zone, with protagonists having access to sophisticated military technology, would you still have boarded the plane?

 

Based on your flaming me, you will all have to answer Yes, in which case you would all have died. Myself, I would most definately not have boarded that plane.

There are other areas in the world where conflicts are going on that civilian airlines regularly fly over. There had been no warning to actively avoid this area. Neither the Captain nor the airline are culpable in this regard. Only he who fired the missile, he who gave the order, and he who supplied this particular weapon are responsible for this outrageous act. Edited July 18, 2014 by Deevers

[Ibrahim Tall]

 

 

No, but you have culpable if you didn't look before stepping on the road. Just because the green man is on doesn't mean there is no danger. In other words there is still a need for you to personally assess the risk before you cross, green man or not.

 

Green was on and you do look, as it was for the pilot. Every instrument available to him would have shown nothing until it was too late, as would any report given to him prior to the flight. As far as anyone was aware they were flying to high for any weaponry used.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Ibrahim Tall

[Guest GhostHunter]

Anyway...back on topic..

 

All but 4 passengers nationalities have been identified, so far, no Americans...it's interesting to note that Sky News reported yesterday that 23 were on board.

[Ibrahim Tall]

Anyway...back on topic..

 

All but 4 passengers nationalities have been identified, so far, no Americans...it's interesting to note that Sky News reported yesterday that 23 were on board.

 

Noticed that too, multiple news agencies did but now none do and no explanation why.

[ArcticJambo]

Correct. So, again, from their perspective, they have made a mistake. That is agreed. Mistakes happen in war. Everyone knows this.

 

So again, the captain, knowing that this was a war zone, and knowing that mistakes happen in wars, chose to fly directly over it.

 

This accident could have simply been avoided by not flying over a war zone in the first place.

 

Sorry if this simple truth is not acceptable to you on this thread but it is correct nevertherless.

Based on the info they had, 33,000 feet was a safe cruising height.

 

That info was, tragically, wrong.

 

I feel sorry for Malaysian Airlines in this. Apportioning blame to them is ridiculous.

That would be enough for me to take a diversion, to be honest. And if fighter jets, a logical step to reasonably expect SAM's?

 

Correct, and this is what I think Sydney was referring to with his earlier comment about 'f-ups'. Making assumptions from this I then went on to emphasize about the need for risk management, meaning real-time risk management. The risks could and should have been minimized in this instance, by avoiding the area completely. Prices rise and fall all the time dependent upon differing variables. If it s explained to me that a flightpath cannot be used for whatever reason (safety for eg.) and the costs will have to increase accordingly then I don't have a problem with that whatsoever.

 

I'm actually a wee bitty shocked at the airline industry over these past two high profile incidents.

[Isaac Clarke]

[Sharpie]

The thread is a bit hard to read with so many diverse opinions, and most of us agree some really in an effort to be funny, stupid posts With regard to the location of the plane at the time of attack, some of the news stations are reporting that it left on a course that is being followed by all the planes flying this route. This particular aircraft apparently deviated from the route by something like 300 kilometres north to avoid bad weather. Not an unusual practise but fatal and a bit different in the circumstances considering the situation on the ground. As far as conceiving on my own behalf a strong opinion on what has, will, or won't transpire, with the constant changes of opinion by those correpondents supposedly in the know, any such opinion on my part would be strictly opinion based on insubstantial facts.

[ArcticJambo]

Thats most likely the case now, but only because the risk they were taking has tragically materialised and mitigations will be put in place.

 

Sorry if its unacceptable to all on this thread, but they did knowingly take a risk.

 

I'd say you are half right. They, being the airline industry and the government advisory bodies, did take a risk that could have been foreseen, and thus avoided. Your theory is correct but your target of blame is not.

Edited July 18, 2014 by ArcticJambo

[Jabba]

Is it not the case that some airlines were already avoiding the area?

 

Pretty sure I've heard that today. If so it lends some weight to deeside's initial point. Not the rest though, that was all very silly.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gregory House M.D.]

Its simple - its a war zone.

 

In war zones planes are attacked.

 

The MAS pilot would have been aware it was a war zone.

 

Why was he flying directly over it?

 

The real blame here is on MAS- the rebels did not intend to bring down a passenger plane. From their perspective it was a tragic mistake and not deliberate.

 

The MAS Captain however should have known better than to route over this area.

 

 

Do a bit of googling before you posy stuff this ill informed FFS.

[Craig Gordons Gloves]

Leaving aside the blame game etc, this has given me the shivers. I fly alot and at least once a year we fly with the kids back to Scotland. I can't imagine sitting quietly watching a movie/reading/sleeping only for your plane to be hit by something and you have around a minute of abject terror knowing you're going to die and those you're flying with will too. Terrifying, absolutely terrifying.

[Jamboy81]

Leaving aside the blame game etc, this has given me the shivers. I fly alot and at least once a year we fly with the kids back to Scotland. I can't imagine sitting quietly watching a movie/reading/sleeping only for your plane to be hit by something and you have around a minute of abject terror knowing you're going to die and those you're flying with will too. Terrifying, absolutely terrifying.

 

By the grace of god you hope most of them were killed quickly by the initial impact. It's always worse when it's kids too. I really feel for the relatives watching their kids bodies lying there and their passports being looted by a bunch of russian tramps.

 

Likewise I do travel alot and always felt safe up to now. However my faith in the airline industry has been shaken recently. I also really feel for Malaysian in all of this. Through no falt of their own this will hit the business and affect jobs.

 

As for the morons blaming the pilot... words fail me

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Putin calls for Ukraine ceasefire

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/malaysia-airlines-crash-putin-ukraine-ceasefire-russia-flight-mh17

 

Bit late you weasel-faced prick.

[Don Dan]

 

Putin calls for Ukraine ceasefire

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/malaysia-airlines-crash-putin-ukraine-ceasefire-russia-flight-mh17

 

Bit late you weasel-faced prick.

 

I'll 2nd that.

[chuck677]

Its simple - its a war zone.

 

In war zones planes are attacked.

 

The MAS pilot would have been aware it was a war zone.

 

Why was he flying directly over it?

 

The real blame here is on MAS- the rebels did not intend to bring down a passenger plane. From their perspective it was a tragic mistake and not deliberate.

 

The MAS Captain however should have known better than to route over this area.

A new statement from Malaysia Airlines says:

MH17?s flight plan was approved by Eurocontrol, who are solely responsible for determining civil aircraft flight paths over European airspace. Eurocontrol is the air navigation service provider for Europe and is governed under ICAO rules.

The route over Ukrainian airspace where the incident occurred is commonly used for Europe to Asia flights. A flight from a different carrier was on the same route at the time of the MH17 incident, as were a number of other flights from other carriers in the days and weeks before. Eurocontrol maintains records of all flights across European airspace, including those across Ukraine.

In April, the International Civil Aviation Organization identified an area over the Crimean peninsula as risky. At no point did MH17 fly into, or request to fly into, this area. At all times, MH17 was in airspace approved by the ICAO.

[Don Dan]

Just listening to SKY News and there is a guy saying that there is an App for your mobile phone that when you hold it up and point it at the plane flying above you it identifies that plane and tells it's say BA111 Plane type and is flying to New York. Amazing technology if it's as accurate as that. Maybe all baddies should be issued with this technology so as no more "mistakes" are made.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Dannie Boy

[chuck677]

Just listening to SKY News and there is a guy saying that there is an App for your mobile phone that when you hold it up and point it at the plane flying above you it identifies that plane and tells it's say BA111 Plane type and is flying to New York. Amazing technology if it's as accurate as that. Maybe all baddies should be issued with this technology so as no more "mistakes" are made.

 

Its hard to believe they could have mistaken it. Check out http://www.flightradar24.com/

[Zico]

Putin calls for Ukraine ceasefire

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/malaysia-airlines-crash-putin-ukraine-ceasefire-russia-flight-mh17

 

Bit late you weasel-faced prick.

What a ***** he is. I can't remember the last thing that made me as angry; absolutely despicable. The rest of the world can't sit back and ignore the Ukraine now.

[Guest GhostHunter]

Jesus Christ.

 

80 children on the plane.

 

FFS

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1303294/eighty-children-on-doomed-passenger-plane

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Sky News Newsdesk ?@SkyNewsBreak 2m

 

More

Russian ambassador to the United Nations Vitaly Churkin says Russia places all blame for the #MH17 crash on the Ukrainian government

 

Let's bomb these feckers

[hughesie27]

Just listening to SKY News and there is a guy saying that there is an App for your mobile phone that when you hold it up and point it at the plane flying above you it identifies that plane and tells it's say BA111 Plane type and is flying to New York. Amazing technology if it's as accurate as that. Maybe all baddies should be issued with this technology so as no more "mistakes" are made.

 

All commercial airlines appear on a free app that anybody can download. It is really accurate too.

[Guest C00l K1d]

Not that anyone dieing isn't a tragedy... but 80 kids :(

 

Just think 80 kids won't be able to live a life because some ******* daftys are fighting over who owns a bit of land.

 

Ridiculous.

[bertracoon]

Or what? No need to threaten. just put me on your ignore list. Thanks.

 

No threat from me pal.

 

Just trying to stop you digging this extraordinary hole you seem intent on digging. Don't think I've ever been quite so flabbergasted at someone's opinion in my entire life.

[Mikey1874]

When Lockerbie occurred, did the US invade Iran or Syria, the perpetrators? No, they framed a Libyan for political reasons. In a similar fashion, the maximum political capital will be extracted from Russia in the aftermath of this event.

 

And did anyone establish and hold accountable those who shot down the Iranian passanger jet a few months earlier? - the event widely believed to have been "avenged" by Lockerbie. Another 300 or so innocents killed and familes still grieving.

[Sten Guns]

Pilots fault?

 

[ToYouToMe]

Black box flight recorders still missing it seems.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Norm]

Pilots fault?

 

 

Yup. Biggles should have seen it coming. That's why nobody is shocked it happened.

 

 

No, wait.....

[graygo]

Black box flight recorders still missing it seems.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

I thought they had found one?

[Currahee!]

Just listening to SKY News and there is a guy saying that there is an App for your mobile phone that when you hold it up and point it at the plane flying above you it identifies that plane and tells it's say BA111 Plane type and is flying to New York. Amazing technology if it's as accurate as that. Maybe all baddies should be issued with this technology so as no more "mistakes" are made.

 

Yes I've got that app and had it for a few years.

 

I find it hard to believe whoever shot the plane down didn't know it was a passenger plane.

[Guest GhostHunter]

Obama confirms one American on flight...

[Siphiwe Tshabalala]

Hope whoever is responsible gets what is coming to them.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Hope whoever is responsible gets what is coming to them.

 

Putin should be arrested.

[Adam Murray]

Just out of curiosity, how many fighter planes have been shot down in this area since the unrest started

[Boab]

What a ***** he is. I can't remember the last thing that made me as angry; absolutely despicable. The rest of the world can't sit back and ignore the Ukraine now.

 

Check the Gaza/Israel situation......the world will do just that...make some noises and then sit back.....it is the nature of things.

[Sharpie]

Obama confirms one American on flight...

 

One passenger checked in with an American passport. It has also been suggested that there may be more Americans who checked in with another Country's passport. Where available I believe since in many highjackings Americans were sought out, if they qualified many now U.S citizens would use the other passport available to them for application.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

 

 

Check the Gaza/Israel situation......the world will do just that...make some noises and then sit back.....it is the nature of things.

The carpet must be some height.

[Bridge of Djoum]

No I'm happy to respond to the discussion. I am allowed to.

 

So everyone here thinks there is no such thing as personal culpability, so that everything bad that happens to them is someone elses fault.

 

On the logical extension that all the passengers are therefore to blame - its slighlty different. If the passengers were told that this flight was going to overfly Ukraine, and that there was a war on, but everything should be OK, do you think they would have boarded?

 

Seriously - to the people that are flaming me on this thread - if you had been told the route was going directly over a war zone, with protagonists having access to sophisticated military technology, would you still have boarded the plane?

 

Based on your flaming me, you will all have to answer Yes, in which case you would all have died. Myself, I would most definately not have boarded that plane.

 

You quite simply have no idea what you're talking about.

 

I could substantiate, but its just not worth the bother.

[Jamboy81]

Do airline captains have the authority to decline a specified flight path? I know they can decline a landing clearance if they prefer another approach.

[ToYouToMe]

 

Then you would be dead. Thats the risk you took, which is fine - we all have to make these decisions,but you are therefore personally culpable.

 

 

Utter tripe.

 

 

So if I am told that there is a 1 in 2000000 chance that while walking down my street a car driven by a drunk driver may mount the pavement and hit me and I decide to toddle down to the local shop for a bag of Monster Munch, and am hit by said drunk in said car, I am personally culpable?

 

 

I am to blame? (You do realise that is what culpable means? Do you? )

 

Not the idiot driving the car while inebriated? But me? I am to blame.

 

No criminal charges for the drunk driver.

 

Instead the police announce that the person they were looking for in connection with the incident is deceased.....

 

All because I decided to do a normal everyday thing which carried a miniscule risk of danger?

 

As I said, utter tripe. Ludicrous and embarrassing.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Edited July 19, 2014 by ToYouToMe

[Norm]

 

 

 

Utter tripe.

 

 

So if I am told that there is a 1 in 2000000 chance that while walking down my street a car driven by a drunk driver may mount the pavement and hit me and I decide to toddle down to the local shop for a bag of Monster Munch, and am hit by said drunk in said car, I am personally culpable?

 

 

I am to blame? (You do realise that is what culpable means? Do you? )

 

Not the idiot driving the car while inebriated? But me? I am to blame.

 

No criminal charges for the drunk driver.

 

Instead the police announce that the person they were looking for in connection with the incident is deceased.....

 

All because I decided to do a normal everyday thing which carried a miniscule risk of danger?

 

As I said, utter tripe. Ludicrous and embarrassing.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

You're spot on but personally, I reckon you're wasting your breath (Is it still wasting your breath on the internet? Wasting your typing finger? I don't know).

 

He's just not going to get it.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Normthebarman

[ArcticJambo]

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-malaysia-airlines-was-flying-over-a-war-zone-2014-7

[Guest GhostHunter]

I have a feeling that this is going to escalate very quickly...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28383625

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I have a feeling that this is going to escalate very quickly...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-28383625

 

So it should.

[Boaby Ewing]

There's a video doing the rounds that allegedly shows the plane coming down with one engine ablaze. It's still unconfirmed, and the footage is very shaky, but if it's real it suggests the plane didn't blow up or break-up immediately. Poor *******s.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Dexter
Removed

[Guest GhostHunter]

DDLN - I've removed it, people can google it if they want, not entirely convinced it's from Thursday, but whatever, not good.

[Gorgiewave]

Dave, we were threatened with an immediate ban. I'd ask permission in advance.

[Paolo]

Can I say, I do think deeside Jambo is getting a hard time.

 

I think he has been careless in how he has expressed his view, and I do think the only person(s) responsible is whoever pulled the trigger. I am not going to jump on the bandwagon though, and point fingers yet, unlike the British press.

 

I do think there is a case to look at the decison making process that led to airlines flying this route, and the authorities for determining that it was safe. Answers could show it was not an incorrect decision. It could, though, reduce any future risk, if the answers show the criteria for a safe route perhaps needs reviewed. Aviation regulations and flight routes should, and are regularly reviewed, based on various risks that may exist at the time.

 

We can't blame them for the tragedy in any way, as there is no evidence procedure was not followed, but we can ask questions about the decisions made, and the procedure.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Simon Says