Jesus Camp

[Cade]

Be afraid...........be very afraid.............these are the people who run the planet.

[BigC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_EKHK1C2IE

[BigC]

It's easy to pick the most extreme example of idiocy within a religion and ridicule it. These are the people that think the world is 6000 years old!

 

I'd like to think that even most Christians would find the brainwashing of these young children abhorent.

 

I'm a firm believer that you should teach your children how to think, not what to think.

[Stewart MacD]

Think yourselves lucky. We in Sydney have the so-called "World Youth Day" with Benny from Bavaria and a cast of thousands, in July. Expecting a couple of hundred thousand visitors. There are winter school hols then and thousands of them are being put up in the various religiously inclined schools - we've got 2 across the road - one boys' and one girls'. Trains are bad enough at the best of times.

The taxpayer is putting up to 95m $A (45m sovs) for this "brainwash them while they're young" farce. City streets are being closed and the main racecourse commandeered for a Papal mass in front of 4-500,000..

 

I'm off to Malaysia in July - was unsure before, but definitely going now!

[Cade]

I did like the wee bit at the end of that programme.

 

The big famous Pastor who advises GW Bush has been arrested for methamphetamine abuse and paying for gay sex.

 

And the Jesus Camp has been shut down because parents were becoming concerned.

 

Result. 2-0 to the Devil.

[The Doctor]

I was going to leave this well alone, embarrassed as I was, but I can't get my thoughts on it out of my head.

 

Firstly; we're not all like that, thanks BigC, your post was spot on.

 

Within any people group there are extremists, this programme focussed on one particular strand of Christians, not even Evangelicals, not even Fundamentalists, although I suppose you could categorise them as such. They were Charismatic, Pentecostal, Fundamentalist Evangelicals. Even that ridiculous definition doesn't put them in a small enough box really.

 

It's a bit like within the Jambo family, there are those Jambos who lament the passing of Hello Hello, and there are those who would want nothing to do with it. There are those who would associate themselves with St Pauli and those who would associate themselves with the BNP.

 

Remember those delightful 'christians' from Westboro Baptist http://www.godhatesamerica.com/ (don't click on it, it just encourages them). They would absolutely hate the Christians featured in Jesus Camp, they wouldn't go in for the Spiritual Gifts (praying in tounges, being 'slain in the Spirit' where people get prayed for and fall over, prophesy), they would have no time for the outreach stuff, like the wee girl giving that young woman at the bowling alley a Christian leaflet.

 

It's funny when we watch these people, we think dangerous, extremist, religious nutters. It's natural for us to lump them in together and yet they would both say that they couldn't be more different.

 

What's been playing on my mind though is not the extreme theology of some US Christians, almost by definition any theology taken to an extreme becomes a nonsense, it's what and how I teach my kids.

 

I was pretty distressed by the indoctrination on display in Jesus Camp. Kids of five should not be being emotionally manipulated, brought to tears of regret and fear over issues like abortion and sin.

 

But I teach my kids about sin and have since they were a similar age. (I have three boys of 10,8 and 1) My kids have always come to church with us, they have been sent to Sunday School, taught Christian songs, bible verses, bible stories and rewarded for doing well. I've taken them to Christian holiday clubs where they've had more of the same, been challenged about following Jesus, been told about creation (not a 6,000 year old earth and not outwith the context of evolution) been told about Jesus' death on a cross.

 

I have prayed with my children and allowed other people to pray with them. They are 100% God aware.

 

Am I guilty of similar, if less extreme, indoctrination?

 

This is what's been playing on my mind since I watched the show. It's a heavy issue to deal with and one that as a responsible parent I have to know the answer to.

 

I am sure that I am not indoctrinating them. There is a major difference between teaching and indoctrinating. It throws up another fundamental question about where faith sits in my life and in my ideals*, but first and foremost I believe God wants us to decide for ourselves, to think for ourselves.

 

I think if that's where I'm starting from, encouraging my kids to make their own decision, when they're ready, when they're sure, then it can't be indoctrination. That's why I haven't had my kids baptised, I hope one day they'll want that for themselves, but I don't believe it's my choice to make.

 

I hope in teaching them about God, in teaching them the bible, I'm empowering them to decide for themselves.

 

I was pretty appalled by what I saw in that movie, those kids were not being empowered, they were being manipulated. I hope that's quite different to how I'm bringing up my kids and I hope that they never experience hysteria and manipulation on that kind of level.

 

 

*The other question is one over whether my choice, my free will, is greater than God's will for my life. If God wants me to do something, become a missionary say and I say no, am I more powerful than God? If God is truly omnipotent, is free will an illusion? Also, if I put my choice first in my life I'm putting God's will in second place, traditionally Christians frown on this sort of thing. The answer is that my will should be in line with God's of course, but then that kind of makes free will moot. It's not easy being a Christian despite what some people think!

[wibble]

I was going to leave this well alone, embarrassed as I was, but I can't get my thoughts on it out of my head.

 

Firstly; we're not all like that, thanks BigC, your post was spot on.

 

Within any people group there are extremists, this programme focussed on one particular strand of Christians, not even Evangelicals, not even Fundamentalists, although I suppose you could categorise them as such. They were Charismatic, Pentecostal, Fundamentalist Evangelicals. Even that ridiculous definition doesn't put them in a small enough box really.

 

It's a bit like within the Jambo family, there are those Jambos who lament the passing of Hello Hello, and there are those who would want nothing to do with it. There are those who would associate themselves with St Pauli and those who would associate themselves with the BNP.

 

Remember those delightful 'christians' from Westboro Baptist http://www.godhatesamerica.com/ (don't click on it, it just encourages them). They would absolutely hate the Christians featured in Jesus Camp, they wouldn't go in for the Spiritual Gifts (praying in tounges, being 'slain in the Spirit' where people get prayed for and fall over, prophesy), they would have no time for the outreach stuff, like the wee girl giving that young woman at the bowling alley a Christian leaflet.

 

It's funny when we watch these people, we think dangerous, extremist, religious nutters. It's natural for us to lump them in together and yet they would both say that they couldn't be more different.

 

What's been playing on my mind though is not the extreme theology of some US Christians, almost by definition any theology taken to an extreme becomes a nonsense, it's what and how I teach my kids.

 

I was pretty distressed by the indoctrination on display in Jesus Camp. Kids of five should not be being emotionally manipulated, brought to tears of regret and fear over issues like abortion and sin.

 

But I teach my kids about sin and have since they were a similar age. (I have three boys of 10,8 and 1) My kids have always come to church with us, they have been sent to Sunday School, taught Christian songs, bible verses, bible stories and rewarded for doing well. I've taken them to Christian holiday clubs where they've had more of the same, been challenged about following Jesus, been told about creation (not a 6,000 year old earth and not outwith the context of evolution) been told about Jesus' death on a cross.

 

I have prayed with my children and allowed other people to pray with them. They are 100% God aware.

 

Am I guilty of similar, if less extreme, indoctrination?

 

This is what's been playing on my mind since I watched the show. It's a heavy issue to deal with and one that as a responsible parent I have to know the answer to.

 

I am sure that I am not indoctrinating them. There is a major difference between teaching and indoctrinating. It throws up another fundamental question about where faith sits in my life and in my ideals*, but first and foremost I believe God wants us to decide for ourselves, to think for ourselves.

 

I think if that's where I'm starting from, encouraging my kids to make their own decision, when they're ready, when they're sure, then it can't be indoctrination. That's why I haven't had my kids baptised, I hope one day they'll want that for themselves, but I don't believe it's my choice to make.

 

I hope in teaching them about God, in teaching them the bible, I'm empowering them to decide for themselves.

 

I was pretty appalled by what I saw in that movie, those kids were not being empowered, they were being manipulated. I hope that's quite different to how I'm bringing up my kids and I hope that they never experience hysteria and manipulation on that kind of level.

 

 

*The other question is one over whether my choice, my free will, is greater than God's will for my life. If God wants me to do something, become a missionary say and I say no, am I more powerful than God? If God is truly omnipotent, is free will an illusion? Also, if I put my choice first in my life I'm putting God's will in second place, traditionally Christians frown on this sort of thing. The answer is that my will should be in line with God's of course, but then that kind of makes free will moot. It's not easy being a Christian despite what some people think!

 

......... you may not be quite as mad, but you still believe in an all powerful being who sits back and watches while the people you say he loves knock the crapola out of each other in wars, get washed away in Tsunami's etc etc. Your whole belief system is at odds with the facts. If you can't see that YOU TOO have been brainwashed by those who taught you, then you should seek professional help to break the psychological cage that has been created for you.

 

There is no God.

 

There is no heaven or afterlife.

 

You are NOT special - just another gob of protein on an accidental planet.

 

You are a cult member - plain and simple.

[felix]

Within any people group there are extremists, this programme focussed on one particular strand of Christians, not even Evangelicals, not even Fundamentalists, although I suppose you could categorise them as such. They were Charismatic, Pentecostal, Fundamentalist Evangelicals. Even that ridiculous definition doesn't put them in a small enough box really.

Wouldn't dismiss them that easily....pentecostals are the fastest growing christian faith and if "Jesus Camp" was typical - that's very worrying.

Remember those delightful 'christians' from Westboro Baptist http://www.godhatesamerica.com/ (don't click on it, it just encourages them).

Definately a minority side-show to be ignored.

It's funny when we watch these people, we think dangerous, extremist, religious nutters.

And rightly so.Constant references throughout the programme to war and islam.

Of course The US now goes to war "in Gods name" and watching pentecostal evengelists in action, it's easy to understand why.

I have prayed with my children and allowed other people to pray with them. They are 100% God aware.

Am I guilty of similar, if less extreme, indoctrination?

Yes.

I am sure that I am not indoctrinating them.

Everyone indoctrinates their kids, whether it's with notions of good & bad, santa claus or which team to follow...the difference with Jesus camp is the message is taken too far. You can make children believe anything -abortion is something best left to later life .

There is a major difference between teaching and indoctrinating..

Reckon it's a fine line with children...why not also teach your kids about Allah, Jah and Buddah for example ? That would be teaching.

You're focussing on the Christian doctrine; that's indoctrination in my eyes.

*The other question is one over whether my choice, my free will, is greater than God's will for my life. If God wants me to do something, become a missionary say and I say no, am I more powerful than God? If God is truly omnipotent, is free will an illusion? Also, if I put my choice first in my life I'm putting God's will in second place, traditionally Christians frown on this sort of thing. The answer is that my will should be in line with God's of course, but then that kind of makes free will moot. It's not easy being a Christian despite what some people think!

My views collide with yours in this respect.....The belief that some greater force has designs on your life strikes me as dangerous. If more people accepted we only get one chance and everyone is directly responsible for their actions; the world would be a better place imho.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

Go on the mado god botherers!

[The Doctor]

......... you may not be quite as mad, but you still believe in an all powerful being who sits back and watches while the people you say he loves knock the crapola out of each other in wars, get washed away in Tsunami's etc etc. Your whole belief system is at odds with the facts. If you can't see that YOU TOO have been brainwashed by those who taught you, then you should seek professional help to break the psychological cage that has been created for you.

 

There is no God.

 

There is no heaven or afterlife.

 

You are NOT special - just another gob of protein on an accidental planet.

 

You are a cult member - plain and simple.

 

I seem to have touched a nerve.

 

All you've done here is reduced my points to a simplistic and insulting series of meaningless soundbites. What exactly was the point of your post?

[The Doctor]

Wouldn't dismiss them that easily....pentecostals are the fastest growing christian faith and if "Jesus Camp" was typical - that's very worrying.

Definately a minority side-show to be ignored.

 

And rightly so.Constant references throughout the programme to war and islam.

Of course The US now goes to war "in Gods name" and watching pentecostal evengelists in action, it's easy to understand why.

Yes.

 

Everyone indoctrinates their kids, whether it's with notions of good & bad, santa claus or which team to follow...the difference with Jesus camp is the message is taken too far. You can make children believe anything -abortion is something best left to later life .Reckon it's a fine line with children...why not also teach your kids about Allah, Jah and Buddah for example ? That would be teaching.

You're focussing on the Christian doctrine; that's indoctrination in my eyes.

 

My views collide with yours in this respect.....The belief that some greater force has designs on your life strikes me as dangerous. If more people accepted we only get one chance and everyone is directly responsible for their actions; the world would be a better place imho.

 

Thanks for your pov Das.

 

Just a few things, I know quite a few 'Pentecostals', I don't know anybody who would carry on the way that the folk in Jesus Camp did. In fact there is much in my own belief system that would put me in the Pentecostal camp. I believe in Spiritual Gifts for example.

 

I don't think Pentecostals are the big threat per se, My point was really that there are nutters in every people group, labelling one group in entirety is really dangerous.

 

I would happily teach my kids about Allah, in fact there's very little difference in how I see Allah and God, it's the approach that makes a difference, it's how we relate to that god. Jah, I'd be more reticent about, I would view Rastafarianism as a cult, worship of a man and so on. Buddhism I'd have no problem with, in context, as man's wisdom. The thing for me is that these faiths only give partial answers.

 

Somebody asked me "If you'd been born in Pakistan would you have been a Muslim"?

I think yes, but I wouldn't have been satisfied as I don't believe Islam satisfies and provides the way that Christianity does.

 

Your last paragraph has me confused Das, I don't understand how believing that God has a plan for your life contradicts personal responsibility in any way. I fully agree with you, that I have one chance, that I am directly responsible for my actions and that I should do what I can to make the world a better place. That's what the bible teaches.

[Craig R]

It's easy to pick the most extreme example of idiocy within a religion and ridicule it. These are the people that think the world is 6000 years old!

 

I'd like to think that even most Christians would find the brainwashing of these young children abhorent.

 

I'm a firm believer that you should teach your children how to think, not what to think.

 

Agreed. Until they start to think something really stupid, then you have to get them telt.

[Debtor]

The God of the bible can be misused in much the same way all other things can be abused. However if you only watch extreme programmes, which are limited in their reach, and base your opinions on these you are the loser.

Your understanding of Scottish football is not based on what you read in the 'Record' and your knowledge of Heart of Midlothian is not based on what you read on JKB! It comes from a wider experience of those things.

If you are happy, and some are, to allow this programme to control your thinking that is your affair. But preaching to the converted helps no-one.

[I.J]

Jesus Camp?

 

I know he wore a dress, but I wouldn't go that far.

 

[wibble]

I seem to have touched a nerve.

 

All you've done here is reduced my points to a simplistic and insulting series of meaningless soundbites. What exactly was the point of your post?

 

 

 

You have tried in your OP to distance yourself from the lunatics in the TV programme, but my point is that you are similarly deluded and little separates you from them. Belief in divine entities/beings puts you all in

the same basket IMO.

[The Doctor]

You have tried in your OP to distance yourself from the lunatics in the TV programme, but my point is that you are similarly deluded and little separates you from them. Belief in divine entities/beings puts you all in

the same basket IMO.

 

That attitude's about smart as saying that all Muslims are terrorists or all football fans are hooligans.

 

It's lazy, it's ignorant, it's prejudiced and it's judgemental.

 

Have you ever thought that it might be a smarter idea to get to know someone before calling them deluded, virtually a lunatic?

[wibble]

That attitude's about smart as saying that all Muslims are terrorists or all football fans are hooligans.

 

It's lazy, it's ignorant, it's prejudiced and it's judgemental.

 

Have you ever thought that it might be a smarter idea to get to know someone before calling them deluded, virtually a lunatic?

 

Many of the points you have made in this thread are slagging off other forms of Christianity, Rastas etc.

 

All I am saying is that a person who believes in god and spends his time talking in tongues is not in any position to think of others as deluded or liken them to a cult.

 

You say you have taught your children about God. I hope you have only taught them the things that you can prove. ie:nothing at all.

 

In my opinion teaching kids that any god exists is brainwashing - nothing less.

[Commander Harris]

is teaching kids that God doesn't exist brainwashing them too?

 

do you apply the same criteria of only teaching them "things you can prove"?

[wibble]

is teaching kids that God doesn't exist brainwashing them too?

 

do you apply the same criteria of only teaching them "things you can prove"?

 

You can teach them that there are loonies who believe in all powerful entities, you can take them along to point and laugh at some clown talking in tongues and fainting all over the shop and then you can let them make up their own minds.

 

 

Mostly I'll be teaching my kids science, maths, english and how to see though a big pile of bull****.

[Walter Payton]

You can teach them that there are loonies who believe in all powerful entities, you can take them along to point and laugh at some clown talking in tongues and fainting all over the shop and then you can let them make up their own minds.

 

 

Mostly I'll be teaching my kids science, maths, english and how to see though a big pile of bull****.

 

Could you then teach them to respect people you don't necessarily agree with or is it too late by then?

[jamboinglasgow]

You can teach them that there are loonies who believe in all powerful entities, you can take them along to point and laugh at some clown talking in tongues and fainting all over the shop and then you can let them make up their own minds.

 

 

Mostly I'll be teaching my kids science, maths, english and how to see though a big pile of bull****.

 

 

wow, that is ignorent. I am christian and proud, yet I will teach my children science, maths and ENglish as well as giving them an understanding of the religion I follow. I will never say you have to follow this. I have no problems with aethists except people like Dawkins who arguments are simply sentiatialist rather than well argued.

 

People also have the idiotic view that science and religion dont mix, well how come so many major scientists are actully religous? Think creationism is a problem and it is stupid way for people follow. My view on the creation in the bible is that days is not a 24hr period but 7 periods of times e.g. billions of years.

 

As for the bible camp, I think it is a terrible thing to have. It is brainwashing and gives the rest of creationaty a bad name. Think though people look at religion through it's fundamentalists and extremists.

[turnkey1874]

Originally Posted by MelbourneJambo View Post

You can teach them that there are loonies who believe in all powerful entities, you can take them along to point and laugh at some clown talking in tongues and fainting all over the shop and then you can let them make up their own minds.

 

Mostly I'll be teaching my kids science, maths, english and how to see though a big pile of bull****.

 

I have to disagree with you bud: I'm a physicist with a first class honours degree in Physics and I am a Christian. I don't see any problem with science and a belief in God.

 

Eternity: smoking or non-smoking

[Bigsmak]

As someone who is not a believer I actually have no problem with kids being taught about the Bible and God. The Christian Religion has formed the basis of our country's Legal system and basic moral code and therefore is a must in a modern well balanced education system.

 

All that I would ask is that the kids are given both sides of the argument and that they be allowed to choose for themselves.

 

Brainwashing by any means is not a good thing and for someone to say to child that their own belief is 100% true is not a good thing, whether it be believing in God or not. I think the best approach would be to say; "I believe in this or that, feel free to ask questions and make your own mind up!"

[Jamie_the_Jambo]

If I believed in fairies at the bottom of the garden you'd say I was mad.

Your god delusion is exactly the same.

 

If you thought about it for more than a minute the idea of a god becomes more and more proposterous.

 

Incidently the fairies in my garden are made of stone. They ARE REAL.

 

Jamie

[Benzinho]

wow, that is ignorent. I am christian and proud, yet I will teach my children science, maths and ENglish as well as giving them an understanding of the religion I follow. I will never say you have to follow this. I have no problems with aethists except people like Dawkins who arguments are simply sentiatialist rather than well argued.

 

People also have the idiotic view that science and religion dont mix, well how come so many major scientists are actully religous? Think creationism is a problem and it is stupid way for people follow. My view on the creation in the bible is that days is not a 24hr period but 7 periods of times e.g. billions of years.

As for the bible camp, I think it is a terrible thing to have. It is brainwashing and gives the rest of creationaty a bad name. Think though people look at religion through it's fundamentalists and extremists.

 

Got to pick you up on a couple of things (highlighted above) there. I'm not quite sure how you can claim that Richard Dawkins arguments aren't well argued. I take it you haven't read any of his stuff, in particular The God Delusion? If he has been sensationalist at any point, it's more than likely because he's recognised that seems to be the only way to get heard in the mainstream media these days, i.e. he who shouts loudest.

 

As for your argument regarding the 7 days of creation that strikes me as twisting the bible to suit your own ends which is exactly the same as the people mentioned in this thread, albeit your interpretation is not in any way harmful. If it wasn't 7 days, why didn't the bible say that? If what you say is true that means God had one hell of a rest on the 7th 'day'. Lazy git!

 

Is it blasphemy to call God a lazy git?

[jamboinglasgow]

Got to pick you up on a couple of things (highlighted above) there. I'm not quite sure how you can claim that Richard Dawkins arguments aren't well argued. I take it you haven't read any of his stuff, in particular The God Delusion? If he has been sensationalist at any point, it's more than likely because he's recognised that seems to be the only way to get heard in the mainstream media these days, i.e. he who shouts loudest.

 

As for your argument regarding the 7 days of creation that strikes me as twisting the bible to suit your own ends which is exactly the same as the people mentioned in this thread, albeit your interpretation is not in any way harmful. If it wasn't 7 days, why didn't the bible say that? If what you say is true that means God had one hell of a rest on the 7th 'day'. Lazy git!

 

Is it blasphemy to call God a lazy git?

 

Yes I have not read Dawkins but read plenty of articles (from Christians and aethists) which heavily criticise him and his methods.

 

Its not twisting the bible. THe orginal hebrew bible had seven periods but when translated it was written as days.

[jamboinglasgow]

As someone who is not a believer I actually have no problem with kids being taught about the Bible and God. The Christian Religion has formed the basis of our country's Legal system and basic moral code and therefore is a must in a modern well balanced education system.

 

All that I would ask is that the kids are given both sides of the argument and that they be allowed to choose for themselves.

 

Brainwashing by any means is not a good thing and for someone to say to child that their own belief is 100% true is not a good thing, whether it be believing in God or not. I think the best approach would be to say; "I believe in this or that, feel free to ask questions and make your own mind up!"

 

Think you are 100% correct. I studied the Scottish Enlightenment and they had the great ideal of enlightened thinking where you dont accept what you are told by a proffesor/religous cleric/etc but question it, investigate yourself and then come to a conclusion based on your findings. This may be the same as what the person told you but you have created your basis for it. Many key thinkers of the time studied religion and many of those were church of scotland ministers. David Hume was more aethistic than the others (though he can not be called an aethist like people would think of today.)

 

Think that should be the same for children today. They are shown the sides and have to come to their own thought through investigation of their own.

[Debtor]

The only problem with folks reasoning capability is the folk themselves.

Bias, and limited ability enter into it.

The heart is deceitful for all of us!

[Benzinho]

Yes I have not read Dawkins but read plenty of articles (from Christians and aethists) which heavily criticise him and his methods.

 

Its not twisting the bible. THe orginal hebrew bible had seven periods but when translated it was written as days.

 

Fair enough, wasn't aware of the translation from Hebrew part so that would certainly make more sense although it does support my point that God was a bit of a lazy git, 'resting' for billions of years!

 

I've also read plenty of criticsm of Dawkins, some legitimate and some not but surely it would only be fair to actually read his stuff and make your own mind up, much the same as you would argue for the bible I'm sure.

 

I would tend to agree with Bigsmak as well. My parents sent me to sunday school when I was younger but when they felt I was old enough to make my own decision on whether I believed in or agreed with it they did not force me to continue going.

 

I'm basically an atheist but my wife is religious (in as much as she has a particular religion and believes in God but doesn't go to church much) and when we have kids she will probably want to send them to sunday school. I have no problem with this as long as she's happy to let them make their own mind up when they're old enough.

[turnkey1874]

Got to pick you up on a couple of things (highlighted above) there. I'm not quite sure how you can claim that Richard Dawkins arguments aren't well argued. I take it you haven't read any of his stuff, in particular The God Delusion? If he has been sensationalist at any point, it's more than likely because he's recognised that seems to be the only way to get heard in the mainstream media these days, i.e. he who shouts loudest.

 

As for your argument regarding the 7 days of creation that strikes me as twisting the bible to suit your own ends which is exactly the same as the people mentioned in this thread, albeit your interpretation is not in any way harmful. If it wasn't 7 days, why didn't the bible say that? If what you say is true that means God had one hell of a rest on the 7th 'day'. Lazy git!

 

Is it blasphemy to call God a lazy git?

 

I have to disagree with you bud: The Bible does say it was a normal day, it says that the "evening and morning" where the first day so it was not a period of time going into millions of years. The original Hebrew does not support what you say m8. Six days of creation is not a problem for me at all.

[jamboinglasgow]

I have to disagree with you bud: The Bible does say it was a normal day, it says that the "evening and morning" where the first day so it was not a period of time going into millions of years. The original Hebrew does not support what you say m8. Six days of creation is not a problem for me at all.

 

just so your not crucifying the wrong guy (pardon the expression) it was actully me that made that claim.

[felix]

wow, that is ignorent. I am christian and proud, yet I will teach my children science, maths and ENglish

maybe stick to science & maths and get someone in for the english

[wibble]

I love the way that christians concede ground wherever their religion falls flat on it's face, but twist and turn to keep the delusion alive.

 

It's a tribute to the strength of the brainwashing process they have been through to make them so resilient. I especially like the "Hundreds of scientists are religious arguement", this has never been shown as a fact and you'll find that close to none of the good ones are.

 

I hope when the lights go out and the big fella is not there waiting for you that you don't get too upset.

 

The damage done in the name of god, allah and whomever else you keep as an imaginary friend is disgusting.

 

When wars are fought, civil rights denied and political decisions made because of a very vocal group of niggling zealots I get angry.

 

When the president of America and the Prime Ministers of Britain and Australia start praying together I get very angry.

 

When organised religions get tax concessions to help make them some of the most powerful organisations on the planet I get angry.

 

When child abuse is covered up by those organisations and governments turn a blind eye, I get angry.

 

When all of these things happen and no christians stand up and say it's wrong I lose respect for all of you. You are part of the problem.

[The Doctor]

I love the way that christians concede ground wherever their religion falls flat on it's face, but twist and turn to keep the delusion alive.

 

It's a tribute to the strength of the brainwashing process they have been through to make them so resilient. I especially like the "Hundreds of scientists are religious arguement", this has never been shown as a fact and you'll find that close to none of the good ones are.

I've never used this line in my life, but I know a retired Chemistry Professor from Edinburgh Uni who's a Christian, so I definitely will from now on. To be honest I've never really considered a schism between science and faith so it's never been particularly relevant to me. Still if the best you can come up with is that current scientific theory suggests that there's no supreme being, fair play to you, well done.

 

I hope when the lights go out and the big fella is not there waiting for you that you don't get too upset. More patronising, meaningless rubbish.

 

The damage done in the name of god, allah and whomever else you keep as an imaginary friend is disgusting.

Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, how many million people killed between them in the name of which deity exactly? This is another lie wheeled out by brainwashed Dawkinsists, but it really doesn't stand up to close analysis.

 

When wars are fought, civil rights denied and political decisions made because of a very vocal group of niggling zealots I get angry.

China, a Marxist regime where religion has been quashed for almost a century, banned and illegal in most cases. They've got a great track on civil liberties right? You don't half talk rubbish.

 

When the president of America and the Prime Ministers of Britain and Australia start praying together I get very angry.

Why angry? Surely if they have a shared faith it's a good thing to share such a deep and meaningful connection. Actually I don't care what they do together. I don't care for Bush or Blair, I think they are both liars and conmen, all style and no substance. The world will hopefully be a safer and happier place come November when the Republicans get booted out of the White House. I have no opinion on your Aussie PM, sorry.

 

When organised religions get tax concessions to help make them some of the most powerful organisations on the planet I get angry.

Agreed, but I worry that you have a lot of anger. I arranged today to have my bins emptied for free because my work is linked to the church, does that make you angry on behalf of all the council tax payers of Edinburgh?

 

When child abuse is covered up by those organisations and governments turn a blind eye, I get angry.

I agree absolutely, but it's got nothing to do with Jesus. These abusers are not followers of Jesus. To be a follower of Jesus, you have to do the things He did. They are not then Christians.

 

When all of these things happen and no christians stand up and say it's wrong I lose respect for all of you. You are part of the problem.

I do what I can. I don't stand back, I work very hard, for little financial reward to make a difference, a real and practical difference in the lives of marginalized and isolated people. I am a missionary in the city centre of Edinburgh, I work amongst drug addicts and alcoholics, the mentally ill and the poor. The homeless and destitute.

Don't you dare say that I do nothing to say that injustice is wrong.

I don't need your respect, I don't seek your respect, I don't expect your respect, but don't you dare suggest that I'm part of a problem.

 

You have no idea who I am or what I do, but then you've really shown yourself up to be ignorant throughout this thread

.

[wibble]

You don't deny this statement ....

 

"I love the way that christians concede ground wherever their religion falls flat on it's face, but twist and turn to keep the delusion alive. "

 

 

Why not?

 

You also don't say what you've done about fellow christians who cover-up abuse? Surely a true christian would do what Jesus would have. According to legend he wasn't afraid of a barney and he would have kicked some ass, instead you nurse the broken victims . Jesus would be ashamed of you (if he had ever existed).

 

Your overall demeanour in this thread doesn't strike me as very "christian". I may well be on the attack, but you are supposed to win me over with compassion and understanding. So far you have called me every abusive name under the sun.

 

Your real enemies are those within your own group who use the banner of christianity to perpetrate crimes against children and others in the name of your god. Stand up to those people and I show you some respect. Until then you get tarred with the same brush. Dishing up soup to a few jakies doesn't cut it in my book.

[IMA MAROON]

Think you are 100% correct. I studied the Scottish Enlightenment and they had the great ideal of enlightened thinking where you dont accept what you are told by a proffesor/religous cleric/etc but question it, investigate yourself and then come to a conclusion based on your findings. This may be the same as what the person told you but you have created your basis for it. Many key thinkers of the time studied religion and many of those were church of scotland ministers. David Hume was more aethistic than the others (though he can not be called an aethist like people would think of today.)

 

Think that should be the same for children today. They are shown the sides and have to come to their own thought through investigation of their own.

 

 

That seems to me to be normal.

 

 

But I teach my kids about sin and have since they were a similar age. (I have three boys of 10,8 and 1) My kids have always come to church with us, they have been sent to Sunday School, taught Christian songs, bible verses, bible stories and rewarded for doing well. I've taken them to Christian holiday clubs where they've had more of the same, been challenged about following Jesus, been told about creation (not a 6,000 year old earth and not outwith the context of evolution) been told about Jesus' death on a cross.

 

I have prayed with my children and allowed other people to pray with them. They are 100% God aware.

 

Am I guilty of similar, if less extreme, indoctrination?

 

I am sure that I am not indoctrinating them. There is a major difference between teaching and indoctrinating. It throws up another fundamental question about where faith sits in my life and in my ideals*, but first and foremost I believe God wants us to decide for ourselves, to think for ourselves.

 

I think if that's where I'm starting from, encouraging my kids to make their own decision, when they're ready, when they're sure, then it can't be indoctrination. That's why I haven't had my kids baptised, I hope one day they'll want that for themselves, but I don't believe it's my choice to make.

 

I hope in teaching them about God, in teaching them the bible, I'm empowering them to decide for themselves.

 

Teaching them your truths are the whole truth and nothing but?

[The Doctor]

You don't deny this statement ....

 

"I love the way that christians concede ground wherever their religion falls flat on it's face, but twist and turn to keep the delusion alive. "

 

 

Why not?

The statement itself is fundamentally flawed, my faith is not a delusion and it's never fallen flat on it's face. It's more meaningless rhetoric from you.

 

You also don't say what you've done about fellow christians who cover-up abuse? Surely a true christian would do what Jesus would have. According to legend he wasn't afraid of a barney and he would have kicked some ass, instead you nurse the broken victims . Jesus would be ashamed of you (if he had ever existed).

I've already told you, these are not Christians. You're beginning to sound like one of the B J K brigade. Systematic abuse goes on within many institutions, the Catholic church does not have a monopoly on it. It's disgusting in every case, it's abhorrent where ever and however it happens, but it has no more to do with me and my faith as it has to do with you and your lack of faith. As for your line about nurse broken victims, what patronising nonsense.

 

Your overall demeanour in this thread doesn't strike me as very "christian". I may well be on the attack, but you are supposed to win me over with compassion and understanding. So far you have called me every abusive name under the sun.

Tell me how you expect a Christian to respond? You have absolutely no understanding of my faith and yet you happily tell me how to act. Does this also not contradict what you've said in your previous paragraph? Do I kick ass or do I act compassionately? I have not called you a single abusive name. I questioned your attitude (I said your attitude was ignorant and lazy) and said much of what you have written about Christianity is rubbish, but where have called you an abusive name?

 

Your real enemies are those within your own group who use the banner of christianity to perpetrate crimes against children and others in the name of your god. Stand up to those people and I show you some respect. Until then you get tarred with the same brush. Dishing up soup to a few jakies doesn't cut it in my book.

I told you already I don't want, need or expect your respect.

I will do what I am called to do, you don't tell me how to live my life as a Christian, that would be ridiculous. You have no idea who I am, or what I do, yet you dismiss it at a stroke. Do you really think that this attitude is going to impress anyone?

You tell me who my real enemies are, "within my own group", what group? I've already told you that they are not Christians. Where are these people? You tell me to stand up to them. Do you really think I would be involved in a cover up of child abuse? Are you suggesting that I would become complicit in such activity? How can I not be offended by that?

I don't know and have never known a single person within my church or any church I have been involved in who has been involved in child abuse. How is it suddenly my responsibility?

In the UK in the last year there has been a paedophile ring exposed in a children's home on Jersey. Am I responsible for that too, because I feel just as connected to that as I do to abusers who work within Christian circles.

.

[maltese jambo]

......... you may not be quite as mad, but you still believe in an all powerful being who sits back and watches while the people you say he loves knock the crapola out of each other in wars, get washed away in Tsunami's etc etc. Your whole belief system is at odds with the facts. If you can't see that YOU TOO have been brainwashed by those who taught you, then you should seek professional help to break the psychological cage that has been created for you.

 

There is no God.

 

There is no heaven or afterlife.

 

You are NOT special - just another gob of protein on an accidental planet.

 

You are a cult member - plain and simple.

 

Thats indoctranation. Blatent disregard for other opinions.

 

Personally i dont see anything wrong with abiding by Christian beliefs, which predominantly are based on being peaceful, loving and forgiveness and you should really at least respect others beliefs.

[wibble]

.

 

I presume your religion is the most important thing in your life along with your family?

 

You acknowledge that the Catholic Church parade themselves as Christians and besmirch the name of christians with their behaviours, but you sit back and allow it to happen.

 

I've read the bible, I know how Jesus turned over the money lenders, I can guess what he would expect YOU, a dedicated christian, to do to a bunch of child molesters who claim to have a monopoly on christianity.

 

Serious question. What do YOU think Jesus would expect you to do?

 

Please also tell me the name of your church so I can do some more reading.

[jambovambo]

......... you may not be quite as mad, but you still believe in an all powerful being who sits back and watches while the people you say he loves knock the crapola out of each other in wars, get washed away in Tsunami's etc etc. Your whole belief system is at odds with the facts. If you can't see that YOU TOO have been brainwashed by those who taught you, then you should seek professional help to break the psychological cage that has been created for you.

 

There is no God.

 

There is no heaven or afterlife.

 

You are NOT special - just another gob of protein on an accidental planet.

 

You are a cult member - plain and simple.

 

 

Heh - I like the cut of your jib ...

[rustyboy]

organized religion to me is just the weirdest thing, i think the idea of a creator is something that will always be with us, but to believe in a man made religion just seems weird to me. It's just an excuse to control people and have power, children should definately be allowed to make up their own minds as they get older, just think how much more peaceful the world would be if people grew up without following seperate paths. the zeitgeist movie that is on the web is a real eye opener, the first part is about religion, powerfull scary stuff. would love to hear a christians view on that movie!

[Debtor]

organized religion to me is just the weirdest thing, i think the idea of a creator is something that will always be with us, but to believe in a man made religion just seems weird to me. It's just an excuse to control people and have power, children should definately be allowed to make up their own minds as they get older, just think how much more peaceful the world would be if people grew up without following seperate paths. the zeitgeist movie that is on the web is a real eye opener, the first part is about religion, powerfull scary stuff. would love to hear a christians view on that movie!

 

Two points.

 

It's just an excuse to control people and have power

 

How much power is controlled by Christians in comparison to say TV or any newspaper? Who wants the power over a church of about 50 people?

 

 

just think how much more peaceful the world would be if people grew up without following seperate paths

 

You seem to misunderstand human nature I think. Nothing in past history indicates that would bring peace. Trouble comes from the human heart - nowhere else!

[wibble]

Two points.

 

It's just an excuse to control people and have power

 

How much power is controlled by Christians in comparison to say TV or any newspaper? Who wants the power over a church of about 50 people?

 

 

 

You must be completely oblivious to what goes on around you. The catholic child molesting church is the biggest single property owner in the world. It has more wealth and power than you could possibly imagine.

 

mod delete

[Debtor]

You must be completely oblivious to what goes on around you. The catholic child molesting church is the biggest single property owner in the world. It has more wealth and power than you could possibly imagine.

 

mod delete.

 

 

 

Thank you for your reasoned reply.

However I was replying to 'rustyboy' and not referring to you - but do feel free to ignorantly jump in because you are more important than the other man.

 

As to the Catholic church you know more about them and the 'child molesting' than I do. I know nothing about the RC church so that organisation you can discuss with them. However if there are such events in that large organisation I suggest just as many similar happen in other places, not just the RC church.

 

Wealth does not mean it has 'power' over people. No church has power over a Christian, the choice is always with the individual. If you think otherwise you are clearly misinformed. Although possibly the Melbourne heat is making you so touchy. Have you anything you wish to tell us about your past experiences? We are all willing to pray to the living God (Jesus Christ)for you. Just ask.

[Bigsmak]

You must be completely oblivious to what goes on around you. The catholic child molesting church is the biggest single property owner in the world. It has more wealth and power than you could possibly imagine.

 

 

The Catholic Church is the biggest company in the world. Bigger than General Motors or Shell for example. If you take into account the prime city centre real estate that it owns. Along with all the gold, jewels, works of art etc that it has been "given" over the years.

 

However,

 

I would not call them a child molesting organisation as that is libel and you should retract it before it gets you in trouble. You cannot say that every Catholic is a child molester. Yes, there have been some high profile cases in the media surrounding this but it's not limited to the Catholic Church remember, there are instances of it all over the world. What about the modelling industry, you'll see more underage abuse there than anywhere else.

[BigC]

Jeez, this thread's taking things to extremes.

 

MJ, while I'm on your side of the fence, you can't just insult people into agreeing with you.

 

I've got two things I'd like to bring up with The Doctor (in a much nicer tone).

 

Firstly, is teaching your children about god indoctrination?

 

I would say that children need to be taught about all religions. Anyone that doesn't understand what diiferent religions teach is not going to have much understanding of the world around them.

 

The key issue is it shouldn't be forced. If you tell your kids that they must pray, you are inoctrinating them. If you show them how you pray and ask them if they want to join in, I don't think you can be accused of anything too sinister. (Although I don't agree it's a productive use of time, they're you're kids and it's your time, so it's your decision).

 

You believe in your god and you want the best for your children, so telling them about god would seems like a sensible thing to do, because you want your children to accept god because of your believe that it will allow them to go to heaven.

 

The one thing that worries me is that belief in a supernatural creator allows you to then believe in other supernatural things like ghosts, angels and faries etc, because you've opened up the door to irrationality and closed the door on logic. To accept god (in my opinion of course), you have to ignore the evidence that suggests that all religions are man made - and there is overwhelming evidence that all religions are man made.

 

The second thing I'd like to bring up is the Stalin/Hitler thing.

 

This is an old argument that's trotted out again and again to try and taint people with no belief in god, by associating them with evil people who may or may not have shared some of their beliefs.

 

It's utter nonsense.

 

Firstly, Hitler was a Roman Catholic, and many Nazi soldiers wore this belt buckle:

 

 

"Gott mit uns" means "God is with us".

 

The point is, Hitler wasn't christianity's fault and it wasn't the fault of Atheism. Hitler was the fault of all the people who supported him, all those who didn't stand up to him soon enough, and most importantly Hitler was Hitler's fault.

 

Stalin, most probably was an Atheist. But he didn't do what he did because he was an Atheist. He did them because he was evil. There are evil Atheists just as there are evil Christians.

 

To suggest that a lack of belief leads to evil is just wrong.

[maltese jambo]

You must be completely oblivious to what goes on around you. The catholic child molesting church is the biggest single property owner in the world. It has more wealth and power than you could possibly imagine.

 

mod delete.

 

typical materialism....everything comes down to money for you doesn't it?

[wibble]

Bigsmak

 

You are of course right. This thread has descended into garbage - mostly because of me, but I can't help it, people with imaginary friends do my head in.

 

I should also retract my description of the catholic church. They dont condone child abuse at all, in fact they have done so much to stop it that I should probably consider making a donation to them this year. Will have to think about that.

 

BigC

 

I haven't tried to insult anyone into agreeing with me. These christians are beyond reasoned arguement or they wouldn't believe what they do. IMO they have genuinely been truly brainwashed. Feeling the way they do in their ecstatic state is just the same as any other cult member. I've always had to wonder what size a cult has to be before it can avoid tax and lambast anyone who questions it's motives.

 

Debtor

 

This is an open thread, so if I want to laugh at your deranged viewpoint then I am free to do so. You said that churches have no power. They have more power than governments for sure. They have you by the cahoonas for a start.

 

Maltese Jambo

 

Everything comes down to money for me does it? Have you even read the thread? The point made was that churches have no power. My point was that the catholic church has plenty of power. They ask you to confess so that they know your weaknesses, they demand money from their devotees and they flaunt their wealth in ornate clothing, grand buildings and trinkets of all sorts. Meanwhile in countries that they have completely indoctrinated and control government (like Brazil for example) their "people" live in poverty while the church continues to skim off more and more wealth.

 

 

 

Anyway, I've probably abused all the godsheep enough for now so I'll leave this thread alone.

 

The paint on my pentagram has dried and it's time for bit of ritual sacrifice - now where did I put that goat?

[The Doctor]

BigC,

 

Thanks for your gracious and considered reply, we have had many discussions here and whilst we will probably never reconcile our beliefs, I think I am right in saying that the debates have always been conducted with dignity and have never descended into personal abuse. I am grateful to you for that.

 

On your first point I agree almost in entirety with what you've said. I haven't told my kids that they must do anything, pray, believe, anything. (With the exception of attending church, they are too young to be left on their own in the house on a Sunday morning) You are obviously right in your presumption that I hope that my kids do become Christians, but it will be their decision. They also know about other religions and are taught to respect them, they are even taught, at home and school something of the beliefs of those religions (specifically Islam and Buddhism, much of Judaism is closely linked to Christian theology anyway). Not to the same degree as Christianity obviously, but I think it would be unreasonable to expect that.

 

I disagree on your last point about the belief in a supernatural God opening their minds to other supernatural phenomenon (imagined or otherwise). The bible and Christian teaching is very clear that that we (Christians) are to test everything (experiences, teaching, understanding) against scripture. Christianity is not as blind a faith as you might expect. I am called to be discerning, in some ways suspicious. The bible puts it that we should be wise as serpents, gentle as doves.

 

On your second point, I mostly agree with you too. The suggestion was that religion and Christianity in particular was responsible for most wars, I totally refute that and cited Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot merely as examples of evil dictators not inspired by faith (I believe). Hitler's Catholicism was lost amongst his interest in the occult and at best might have been considered at one time a nominal Catholic, but he was never a Christian. I found a quote attributed to Goebbels, "The F?hrer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay."

 

Since Augustine inaugurated the concept of state Christianity there has been a difficult and unrealistic relationship with state and Christian belief. There is no such thing as a Christian country or a Christian state, so the Nazi's having 'God is with us' on their belt buckles is meaningless. Unlike the other two major world monotheistic religions Christianity is personal, it is a personal choice. You are not born a Christian as you are a Jew or a Muslim. The state cannot make you a Christian just because you belong to it. It doesn't work and it will never work because Christian theology doesn't work that way.

 

I wasn't trying to suggest either that atheists or agnostics are evil per se. Not at all. Some of the most moral and upstanding, even good, people I know fall into these categories and I accept that there are evil people from every walk of life, even evil Christians (I don't always act the way I would like to, I'm not sure you would call me evil, but I remain, in my vernacular, sinful) I also fully accept that Stalin was evil because he was evil, not because he was an atheist.

 

Thanks again BigC, your opinions are always appreciated and thought provoking.

 

 

MJ, to answer one of your questions, I belong to Stirling Baptist Church. They have a website http://www.stirlingbaptist.org/ you can even download sermons. I can recommend the series preached in March which dealt with the foundations of Christian faith http://www.stirlingbaptist.org/index.cfm?objectid=70249A1F-FF85-B16D-33ADABF1C18E4DCE

(If you can be bothered it might be particularly interesting to you BigC, believe it or not, you crossed my mind when I heard the creation sermon preached)

[jamboinglasgow]

You must be completely oblivious to what goes on around you. The catholic child molesting church is the biggest single property owner in the world. It has more wealth and power than you could possibly imagine.

 

mod delete.

 

I may be church of scotland but even I find this a stupid point. Yes the catholic church tried to sweep the child molestations under the carpet which was wrong but it does not mean that the catholic church molestes children. I mean say it was (and this is probably over the number) but 0.1% of priests who molested children. Well if a country had the same number you would not call the country a child molesting country. As 99.9% dont moleste.

 

Yes the catholic church should of handled the situation better but I agree with the Doctor in that those who commit these acts cannot call themselves christian as it is against the ideals of the church.