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Incredible Daily Record Article

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Guest JamboRobbo
with regards to "reaping what their players have sown.":

 

why aren't Motherwell "reaping what their players have sown" with cheats like David Clarkson. Why aren't Kilmarnock "reaping what their players have sown" with cheats like Colin Nish?

 

Probably cause they're not as big clubs. Not so often on TV. Not highlighted as much. So it takes more to earn a reputation.

 

Like it or not, we have this reputation. Whether it's deserved or not we could argue all day, but it makes little difference.

 

Regardless of whether it's deserved, we have the reputation. It's up to us to change it somehow.

 

Best way I can see is by being whiter than white.

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Commander Harris
Probably cause they're not as big clubs. Not so often on TV. Not highlighted as much. So it takes more to earn a reputation.

 

Like it or not, we have this reputation. Whether it's deserved or not we could argue all day, but it makes little difference.

 

Regardless of whether it's deserved, we have the reputation. It's up to us to change it somehow.

 

Best way I can see is by being whiter than white.

 

what about that wee club in glasgow with their cheat Nakamura?

 

I agree that we have a reputation and that is what we have to sort out but we are no worse than any other club in the league therefore I have to wonder why Hearts are singled out in the way they are.

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Lovecraft
what about that wee club in glasgow with their cheat Nakamura?

 

I agree that we have a reputation and that is what we have to sort out but we are no worse than any other club in the league therefore I have to wonder why Hearts are singled out in the way they are.

 

Because Scotland is a very racist country.

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Guest JamboRobbo
what about that wee club in glasgow with their cheat Nakamura?

 

Thats a fair point, but rightly or wrongly, I'd say he has a reputation more as a great player/free kick taker than diver.

 

I agree that we have a reputation and that is what we have to sort out but we are no worse than any other club in the league therefore I have to wonder why Hearts are singled out in the way they are.

 

I'd say that we were worse than most other teams (in terms of discipline, as much from the boardroom/management as the actual players), hence why we earned ourselves the reputation we currently have.

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Guest JamboRobbo
Because Scotland is a very racist country.

 

Am I the only one seeing the irony of branding a nation "racist"

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Coco
Thats a fair point, but rightly or wrongly, I'd say he has a reputation more as a great player/free kick taker than diver.

 

 

 

I'd say that we were worse than most other teams (in terms of discipline, as much from the boardroom/management as the actual players), hence why we earned ourselves the reputation we currently have.

 

I think we have some regular divers, but probably no more than any other team.

 

I don't think any other team is so riven with indiscipline from boardroom to pitch - and that means that the referees don't give our players the benefit of the doubt.

 

Our response should be to tighten up our discipline - give the referees no opportunity to punish us.

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We_are_the_Hearts
I think we have some regular divers, but probably no more than any other team.

 

I don't think any other team is so riven with indiscipline from boardroom to pitch - and that means that the referees don't give our players the benefit of the doubt.

 

Our response should be to tighten up our discipline - give the referees no opportunity to punish us.

 

I agree but from playing football I know it is very hard when you feel things are going against you. 50/50 decisions you can accept but blatant cheating is another thing. Saturday was borderline but there is defo evidence of our Liths getting no protection from officials, in fact Miko would need to get taken out in the box by an AK47 to get a penalty.

 

Elliott (Killy) and Stewart (Utd) have been serious acts of indiscipline and these sort of things need stamped out.

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the general
I'm sure David Mcarthy used to write about Hearts for the EEN. About time that biased officials were exposed in the weegie press.

 

you remember correctly I have met him a few times on pre season tours and the like - he is a good lad and ,I think, a Falkirk fan

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cobbyshambles

i thought i'd never read an article in a glasgow paper saying they felt bad for miko being a victim of bad refereeing!

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rossi_1983
If you seen the huge grin on Clarks face as he left the field to the chorus of "boos", he was loving it. That made my mnd up as to Clarks ability and it didnt include icompetance.

 

You could see from his argument with Chesney, that Clark was wanting to be the centre of attention

 

Should be reprimanded by the SFA for it, but that ain't ever gonna happen

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JamboAl
Thats a fair point, but rightly or wrongly, I'd say he has a reputation more as a great player/free kick taker than diver.

 

 

 

I'd say that we were worse than most other teams (in terms of discipline, as much from the boardroom/management as the actual players), hence why we earned ourselves the reputation we currently have.

 

 

You clearly have difficulties in your mind (obsession?) that even when the Board/management have nothing to do with an issue you must introduce it somehow. Certainly discipline can be laid at their door but that was NOT an issue on Saturday.

 

The fact is that when an incident takes place on the field, a referee should make a fair and rational judgment on that incident and that incident alone. He should have no preconceived ideas nor an agenda against players, the Board or management. If he cannot do that he should not be refereeing.

 

BTW I am not talking about mistakes as refs make them like anyone else. I am talking about the persistent, continual situation with refs and HMFC which prompted a weegie based journalist (if the Record has any) to make comments which, although made following Saturday's game, clearly referred to previous history as well. Even a Hubs supporter could read and understand that without trying to blame Romanov (keep that for another thread).

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Guest JamboRobbo
You clearly have difficulties in your mind (obsession?) that even when the Board/management have nothing to do with an issue you must introduce it somehow. Certainly discipline can be laid at their door but that was NOT an issue on Saturday.

 

So calling refs cheats on the official site had nothing to do with it? Repeatedly appealing decisions, even questioning the integrity of the refs? Managers being sent from the stand for complaining. You don't think that has affected our reputation at all? Thats the sort of stuff I was referring to.

 

Having a different opinion does not mean I have any problems with my mind thank you very much.

 

You clearly have an issue with me though (obsession?), as you're always have a go

 

The fact is that when an incident takes place on the field, a referee should make a fair and rational judgment on that incident and that incident alone. He should have no preconceived ideas nor an agenda against players, the Board or management. If he cannot do that he should not be refereeing.

 

BTW I am not talking about mistakes as refs make them like anyone else. I am talking about the persistent, continual situation with refs and HMFC which prompted a weegie based journalist (if the Record has any) to make comments which, although made following Saturday's game, clearly referred to previous history as well. Even a Hubs supporter could read and understand that without trying to blame Romanov (keep that for another thread).

 

So, basically you're suggesting we take the "change human nature" approach that I suggested above (i.e. somehow get refs to not subconciously take their preconceptions into account when making a split second decision).

 

Good luck with that one.

 

I think we'd be better taking an approach that has a possibility of success.

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Seymour M Hersh
thats the crux of it. We have a reputation. We earned it. (hence "reap what you sow").

 

It's up to us to rid ourselves of our reputation (by being whiter than white).

 

Either that, or we can try to change human nature (ie stop refs subconciously taking into account their preconceptions when interpreting things ).

 

I think ridding ourselves of our reputation would be the easier of the two options.[/QUOTE]

 

Bollox.

 

Ok we know Miko dived against Scotland. No-one has really defended it. But remember O'cokeheid dived in the very same game (just not as well) but it's conveniently forgotten. As for Velicka it happened right in fronto of me (incident v falkirk) and I think there was more to avoiding a possible head butt than diving to get the ***** sent off. He jumped straight back to his feet and did not pressure the ref for the red card. They appear (meeja) intent to tell one side of the story against us. That's my issue with them.

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Guest JamboRobbo
thats the crux of it. We have a reputation. We earned it. (hence "reap what you sow").

 

It's up to us to rid ourselves of our reputation (by being whiter than white).

 

Either that' date=' or we can try to change human nature (ie stop refs subconciously taking into account their preconceptions when interpreting things ).

 

[b']I think ridding ourselves of our reputation would be the easier of the two options.[/[/b]QUOTE]

 

Bollox.

 

Ok we know Miko dived against Scotland. No-one has really defended it. But remember O'cokeheid dived in the very same game (just not as well) but it's conveniently forgotten. As for Velicka it happened right in fronto of me (incident v falkirk) and I think there was more to avoiding a possible head butt than diving to get the ***** sent off. He jumped straight back to his feet and did not pressure the ref for the red card. They appear (meeja) intent to tell one side of the story against us. That's my issue with them.

 

Seymour, I tried to respond, but had trouble working out what you think is bollox, and what you're actual point is. I can only guess you wrote that in a rush or something.

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Gambo

Talking of the Record, did anyone read the plum who phoned the hotline?

 

"We should have won 10-0 and not lost to the that lot. But again the goalie lost us the points" :confused:

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Dunk-Section G

I don't know why more hasnt been made of Velicka's booking. It was so clear that it wasnt a dive. I am not sure it was a penalty either, but there was not even a hint of simulation from The Razor.

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Jambo66
Or maybe it's because they aren't Hearts fans, and look at things without maroon blinkers on.

 

I watched the game in the pub on Saturday and there were several Hibs fans there as well. Even they could not believe some of the decisions made in their favour. I have read several posts over the past few weeks where posters have commented on neutrals watching our games and being amazed at how biased the referees are being against us.

 

You do not need maroon blinkers to see what is happening. The so-called reputation we have for being divers is wholly unjustified and has been built up by the media and, most shamefully, by people like Yogi (long before the Velicka incident). Mowbray and Collins perpetuate the myth by talking about us being a "physical" team or a "pub" team.

 

We have players who dive, but there is no evidence that I have seen to suggest that we are more guilty of it than others. I give you Morais, Zemmama, Naismith, Burke, Nakamura - the list goes on and on. There were 4 specific instances at Tynecastle on Saturday where Lithuanian players were brought down. On each occasion, no foul was awarded. On one of them, Velicka received a yellow card. One of the tackles in particular, deserved a yellow card.

 

Referees are allowing themselves to be influenced by factors other than the incident taking place in front of them. If they are simply incompetent, then why are the decisions always going against us? Two of the games where I have been incensed by the refereeing performance are Saturday's game and the home game against Falkirk earlier in the season. We won both of those games and yet, I remember as much about the refereeing performances as I do about the games themselves. That suggests a deep malaise in the game.

 

I firmly believe that the standard of refereeing as a whole in Scotland is dismal, but worse than that, referees appear to be compounding that as far as we are concerned. For me, that is cheating.

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Guest JamboRobbo
I watched the game in the pub on Saturday

 

That comment wasn't referring to the game on Saturday.....

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Tazio

And every game there is a report on the refs performance from a refereeing supervisor in the stands.

 

A refereeing supervisor who is either a ref or an ex ref.

 

A spiralling circle of incompetence.

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loveofthegame

Very sensible and spot on article IMO.

 

How refreshing! Now lets hope somebody somewhere takes note!

 

.....

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Jambo66
That comment wasn't referring to the game on Saturday.....

 

Sorry. Is this thread not about an article in the Record about the referee's performance on Saturday and by implication, past performances?

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Jambo66
And every game there is a report on the refs performance from a refereeing supervisor in the stands.

 

A refereeing supervisor who is either a ref or an ex ref.

 

A spiralling circle of incompetence.

 

I have heard from a former footballer, that since these reports were introduced, every referee in the SPL has received pass marks for his performances.

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maltese jambo
Wow, positive Hearts story in the Daily Ranger :eek:

 

"His central defensive partnership of Karapidis and skipper Berra is developing into the solid unit that might not yet be Pressley-Webster but if given time could be."

 

Based on one game playing together with absolutly nothing to do.

 

Poor article.

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Guest JamboRobbo
Sorry. Is this thread not about an article in the Record about the referee's performance on Saturday and by implication, past performances?

 

 

Aye - the thread is. But my point which you quoted and replied to about blinkers wasn't! My point was a reply to a specific point Gambo made (which WASN'T about Saturday.)

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Mr Sifter
By being whiter than white.

 

Then we'll get reports like this one in the paper today. Before you know it, we'll have a reputation for being hard done by.

 

Then suddenly, we'll be the ones who have preconceptions going in our favour rather than against us.

 

Exactly the same process as got us in this position in the first place.

 

So we conciously embarked on a "blacker than black" crusade, to get ourselvs into the ituation we are in now?

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The Merse

Holey moley.

 

I read the first few paragraphs and was about to get the pitchforks out but then it turns into a positive Hearts story.

 

There does seem to be a bit more emphasis on the fact that refs are giving us nothing, Barry Anderson has pointed it out a few times recently and now this today, keep them coming and we might actually get a penalty in 2008 after all.

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Guest JamboRobbo
So we conciously embarked on a "blacker than black" crusade, to get ourselvs into the ituation we are in now?

 

Well, I don't know if we conciously chose to do it or not, maybe it was an accident.

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JamboAl
So calling refs cheats on the official site had nothing to do with it? Repeatedly appealing decisions, even questioning the integrity of the refs? Managers being sent from the stand for complaining. You don't think that has affected our reputation at all? Thats the sort of stuff I was referring to.

 

Having a different opinion does not mean I have any problems with my mind thank you very much.

 

You clearly have an issue with me though (obsession?), as you're always have a go

 

 

 

So, basically you're suggesting we take the "change human nature" approach that I suggested above (i.e. somehow get refs to not subconciously take their preconceptions into account when making a split second decision).

 

Good luck with that one.

 

I think we'd be better taking an approach that has a possibility of success.

 

I am suggesting you have a serious, serious problem in your mind re Romanaov.

Weegie refs were always against us, even pre-Romanov, and things were substantially exacerbated in the Miko/Davies game BEFORE Romanov said anything about cheating. All your rubbish about human nature and your preconception idiocy only adds to the fact that our refs are not up to doing the job they are PAID to do. That being so, let's get in refs from other countries. I'm only asking for a ref to officiate without fear or favour and to be appointed on the basis of neutrality (no Glasgow refs with Glasgow teams), not to defeat human nature. Is that too much to ask?

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Guest JamboRobbo
I am suggesting you have a serious, serious problem in your mind re Romanaov.

Weegie refs were always against us, even pre-Romanov, and things were substantially exacerbated in the Miko/Davies game BEFORE Romanov said anything about cheating. All your rubbish about human nature and your preconception idiocy only adds to the fact that our refs are not up to doing the job they are PAID to do. That being so, let's get in refs from other countries. I'm only asking for a ref to officiate without fear or favour and to be appointed on the basis of neutrality (no Glasgow refs with Glasgow teams), not to defeat human nature. Is that too much to ask?

 

okay doke.:booze:

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The Merse
Well, I don't know if we conciously chose to do it or not, maybe it was an accident.

 

We certainly haven't helped ourselves with some of the stunts pulled on and off the pitch.

 

Doesn't justify what we've had to put up with but we really haven't helped the situation.

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naeclue

I am pleasantly surprised to see the press finally flag what is happening to us. I'd hope they go on and emphasize the diving that takes place from so many "gid Scottish laddies" rather than just "cheatin' foreigners", but I'm not holding my breath on that.

 

Maybe the tide is turning, albeit slowly, amongst our squad and the press. The sfa next? Surely not....

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rdewar42

The only way forward for us, that I can see, is the " whiter than white" approach.

 

Even that makes me uneasy,as it will surely put us at a disadvantage in what is supposed to be a contact sport, if we have to temper every tackle lest it be construed as unfair.

 

Referees are too liberal with cards these days.

 

In the past, before cards were introduced, Bobby Parker, Dave Mackay, John Cumming etc., played the game just as hard. Bookings were rare, and sendings-off almost unknown.( The O.F., however, were still favoured).

 

Nowadays we receive bookings for celebrating a goal; taking a free-kick before the ref. is ready; kicking the ball away; wearing jewellery; and even falling down when we are fouled. Acts that other teams get away with. We see the evidence every week.

 

I remember a rugby referee supervisor saying that he instructs his charges to the effect that they are the 31st most important person on the field of play.

 

Would that football referees would adopt that approach.

 

They feel the need to act like deranged school masters who are a huge part of the spectacle. They're not. We pay to watch a contest between teams of professional footballers. Referees are only a necessary adjuct to that, and should not be such a large part of the game.

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Auld Reekin'

"...despite what Hearts fans think there are no corrupt officials operating in our game. Flawed? Certainly. But they don't cheat."

 

Well, right enough, Dallas has now retired, but is Andy Davis still plying his dubious trade?

 

:cussing::banghead2::sterb003::sterb032::gangsta:

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Setter

Sit up and pay attention SFA / SPL!!!!!!

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Gizmo
So calling refs cheats on the official site had nothing to do with it? Repeatedly appealing decisions, even questioning the integrity of the refs? Managers being sent from the stand for complaining. You don't think that has affected our reputation at all? Thats the sort of stuff I was referring to.

 

Having a different opinion does not mean I have any problems with my mind thank you very much.

 

You clearly have an issue with me though (obsession?), as you're always have a go

 

 

 

So, basically you're suggesting we take the "change human nature" approach that I suggested above (i.e. somehow get refs to not subconciously take their preconceptions into account when making a split second decision).

 

Good luck with that one.

 

I think we'd be better taking an approach that has a possibility of success.

 

Here it is in a nutshell:

 

1) Referees claim they are impartial and honest.

 

2) We disagree having been on the end of two high-profile cases of dodgy refereeing.

 

3) Referees prove our point by treating us even worse than before - a point which has been picked up by three seperate journalists in the last 2 weeks.

 

We didn't do anything contentious on Saturday yet we were still subject to some disgraceful decisions.

 

If referees were 1) impartial and honest, then it wouldn't matter a jot what we said, would it?

 

Honest and impartial my arse.

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Guest JamboRobbo
Here it is in a nutshell:

 

1) Referees claim they are impartial and honest.

 

2) We disagree having been on the end of two high-profile cases of dodgy refereeing.

 

3) Referees prove our point by treating us even worse than before - a point which has been picked up by three seperate journalists in the last 2 weeks.

 

We didn't do anything contentious on Saturday yet we were still subject to some disgraceful decisions.

 

If referees were 1) impartial and honest, then it wouldn't matter a jot what we said, would it?

 

Honest and impartial my arse.

 

Indeed. So what do you think's gonna happen next week, now that the harshness of how Hearts players were treated has been flagged up in the media?

 

Do you think we might possibly start to get a wee benefit of the doubt?

 

And if we continue to "not do anything contentious", do you think it might get better and better as the weeks go by?

 

Or the other approach is we grump and moan and kick up a fuss at every little decision. I think we may have tried that approach already, and witnessed the results.......

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bean counter

 

Or the other approach is we grump and moan and kick up a fuss at every little decision. I think we may have tried that approach already, and witnessed the results.......

 

The grump and moan approach has been tried and tested by the OF over many many years and it has produced the required results for them as we are seeing now.

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Guest JamboRobbo
The grump and moan approach has been tried and tested by the OF over many many years and it has produced the required results for them as we are seeing now.

 

Good point. We should just disguise ourselves as the OF and all our problems will be solved. :laugh:

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N User

I have to disagree.

This was no "Clark only had a split second to think about it". Clark was out for the Lithuanians.

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colinmaroon

It's really hard to believe - or -

 

well, no it's not!!!

 

 

At last our "paranoia" is being proved to be anything but!!!

 

And the only thing still to come out is that there's more to it than a couple of dives from Lithuanians!!!

 

As I've said elsewhere, it's being going on since Leveingate, worsened after Davisgate and then Vlad's (justifiable but unwise, as the owner of the club, tirade) and to that you can then add Miko and Velicka!!!

 

And who is the champion of the now thoroughly discredited stance that we're all paranoid and that there isn't an agenda?

 

The champion of all things anti-Vlad - even when Vlad is proved right for once -

 

Step up to the plate and take a bow JR!!!

 

 

 

 

.............

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colinmaroon
The grump and moan approach has been tried and tested by the OF over many many years and it has produced the required results for them as we are seeing now.

 

The only reason that the papers have highlighted this is because of the stooshie created on JKB!!!

 

You stick to grumping and moaning about Vlad, and leave the serious business to those who care and can see that the refs ARE NOT playing the game!!!

 

 

 

 

..................

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Guest JamboRobbo

And who is the champion of the now thoroughly discredited stance that we're all paranoid and that there isn't an agenda?

 

The champion of all things anti-Vlad - even when Vlad is proved right for once -

 

Step up to the plate and take a bow JR!!!

.............

 

I don't know what you're pinning on my now colinmaroon, but I've said all along, get our house in order, and let others worry about theirs.

 

You've listed above some of the many things we've done wrong to help make our current bed which we're having to lie in. If we now do the right things as we did at the weekend, (and IMO that means being whiter than white, due to the reputation we've earned ourselves) the rest will take care of itself.

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bean counter
The only reason that the papers have highlighted this is because of the stooshie created on JKB!!!

 

You stick to grumping and moaning about Vlad, and leave the serious business to those who care and can see that the refs ARE NOT playing the game!!!

 

 

 

 

..................

 

Bit Harsh............ when have I grumped and moaned about Vlad ?

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Gizmo
Indeed. So what do you think's gonna happen next week, now that the harshness of how Hearts players were treated has been flagged up in the media?

 

Do you think we might possibly start to get a wee benefit of the doubt?

 

And if we continue to "not do anything contentious", do you think it might get better and better as the weeks go by?

 

Or the other approach is we grump and moan and kick up a fuss at every little decision. I think we may have tried that approach already, and witnessed the results.......

 

Thing is, we didn't do anything wrong on Saturday yet we got a player booked for being fouled. For how long do you think we should bend over and take it dry? A week. A month. A season?

 

This has been going on for over a season and I wager that, should you take the criminally unfair decisions out of the equation, our discipline is no worse than other teams.

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N User

You've also got to look at our games and see the reaction of the players to the shocking decisions.

Calum Elliot's red card may have been stupid a few weeks back, but how many times was he fouled with no free-kick before he lost the plot and got the first booking?

Or if he played for another team, would he have been given another foul before being sent off?

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Guest JamboRobbo
Thing is, we didn't do anything wrong on Saturday yet we got a player booked for being fouled.

 

Agreed. But thats the situation as it is, and it ain't gonna dissapear overnight.

 

For how long do you think we should bend over and take it dry? A week. A month. A season?

 

I reckon things will improve in line with how the relationship improves. It's really up to us to build that relationship if we want things to improve. I'd imagine if we are whiter than white for the next few weeks/months, it won't take long for our reputation to change.

 

This has been going on for over a season and I wager that, should you take the criminally unfair decisions out of the equation, our discipline is no worse than other teams.

 

Think we'll have to agree to differ on that part. our discipline has been very poor for a couple of years. that has come from the top and filtered it's way down IMO.

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Chris Benoit

Can't remember the name of the journalist but the Daily Star reporter has mentioned the bias against us from referee's at least 4/5 times this season and hinted that there is a vendetta from refs against Hearts.

The main point i want to say is so far this season i've sean at least 4 players booked for "simulation" against hearts and the only Hearts player i can recall getting booked was Audrey (not 100% sure as i was listening to game involved on radio) now i'm sure if i'm wrong someone will correct me but does this not show that in this respect we have been "whiter than white" and we don't have as big a problem with diving as others would like us to believe!

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neave

"Velicka's previous"

 

Erm, what 'previous'? I really do despise the xenophobic stereotypes our foreign players get.

 

Fair enough, Mikoliunas has a bit of a reputation and Chesney has gone down in the past but is improving.

 

Ksanavicius, Ivaskevicius, Barasa, Jankauskas, Kancelskis, Pilibaitus etc didn't/don't dive, though, so the 'diving' thing is completely unacceptable. It's reached the stage where we're being hacked down and the referee is automatically telling us to get up.

 

Hibs and Rangers are shocking but do you hear anything from the press about them?

 

Do you ****.

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Brian Dundas
Can't remember the name of the journalist but the Daily Star reporter has mentioned the bias against us from referee's at least 4/5 times this season and hinted that there is a vendetta from refs against Hearts.

The main point i want to say is so far this season i've sean at least 4 players booked for "simulation" against hearts and the only Hearts player i can recall getting booked was Audrey (not 100% sure as i was listening to game involved on radio) now i'm sure if i'm wrong someone will correct me but does this not show that in this respect we have been "whiter than white" and we don't have as big a problem with diving as others would like us to believe!

 

Audrey got booked at Parkhead in the CIS game for being persistently fouled in the penalty area. I'm sure the commentators would have said it was for simulation but the referee new that 3 penalty shouts would have been hard to ignore!!

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brux
haha... bizarre m.o.m. award tho.

 

Not sure what you mean by that, he had a good game.

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