Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[michael_bolton]

I don't have a vote, but if I did I'd struggle to find a reason to vote anything other than yes.

 

Even the UK government have given up on the idea that Scotland wouldn't be a prosperous country.

We'd be able to escape from what is a pretty nasty political landscape in the remainder of the UK.

We'd be a country running itself and making decisions based on the needs of the people in the country.

We'd obviously be allowed to join the EU and NATO. For all the current posturing, the idea that we wouldn't (with our resources and geographical location) is utterly ludicrous.

 

Clearly, there are things to be ironed out. The currency issue remains to be resolved, for example. But that would be overcome as it would be in the interests of Scotland as well as the rest of the UK to get it sorted quickly. Most of the other obstacles put in the way seem quite trivial, to be honest.

 

I just don't see what we lose from a yes vote. We gain control over our own affairs and escape from a larger neighbour which seems to be heading in a different direction from us. It just seems for the best.

 

But I don't have a vote, so never mind...

[Adam Murray]

It's a No vote for me, although I am open to change. The Union has been good for me though, left school with not too many qualifications but have never been out of work, mortgage almost paid off, holiday in Cyprus every year, long weekends to wherever every month, so a decent standard of living for me and my family, do I want to risk that on what might be?

I am a very passionate Scotsman but I am also very proud to be British and it's weird but, the only people who I have come across who have told me I cannot be both, are Scottish Nationalists, who are good friends though, so we're not going to fall out over it.

Probably like a lot of people, I'm a bit bored with the whole politics of it all, politicians wouldn't mislead people to suit their own agenda now, would they? Although this thread has been great and very insightful. Maybe Scotland could achieve so much more, maybe, but it has already achieved so much as part of a Union.

[Alba gu Brath]

Canny top this one. We need to hear more from Cameron. And the debate an aw. He doesn't get off that lightly.

 

http://youtu.be/9dPfskOrsWg

[TheMaganator]

Anyone see Flint vs Ewing on the news last night on the matter of where Scotland & rUK will get their power:

Flint "Scotland gets 33% of energy from nuclear and the plans of the SNP are to close that down"

Ewing "no, that's totally wrong"

 

Just another innocent porky pie, of course. But that doesn't matter, so long as they get what they want, of course.

 

 

[TheMaganator]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/tory-s-hadrian-s-wall-pro-union-torch-protest-plan-1-3296462

 

Well this should be interesting...

Rory Stewart is one of the most intelligent & talented individuals of his generation. Have you ever heard him speak?

 

Sure, some people will write him off because he went to a private school, but I urge you to listen to this man. Truly a credit to Scotland.

 

As for this handholding stuff, well, I've signed up, but I'm not convinced

[Boaby Ewing]

 

Anyone see Flint vs Ewing on the news last night on the matter of where Scotland & rUK will get their power:

Flint "Scotland gets 33% of energy from nuclear and the plans of the SNP are to close that down"

Ewing "no, that's totally wrong"

 

Just another innocent porky pie, of course. But that doesn't matter, so long as they get what they want, of course.

 

 

Er, naw. There's a big difference between phasing something out and just shutting it down.

[Brian Whittaker's Tache]

Rory Stewart is one of the most intelligent & talented individuals of his generation. Have you ever heard him speak?

 

Sure, some people will write him off because he went to a private school, but I urge you to listen to this man. Truly a credit to Scotland.

 

As for this handholding stuff, well, I've signed up, but I'm not convinced

 

Not that smart. For starters Hardian's Wall in nowhere near the border for his "Hands Across the Border" Secondly great symbolism to hold a Better Together stunt on a site that was built by the Southern oppressors to keep us Northern folk in check.Thirdly, How do you hold hands and bear torches? Where's that extra hand coming from? Fourthly as Hadrian's Wall is a designated UNESCO World Heritage Site I hope that they get the necessary permissions to hold such a gathering on the site.

 

I'll give ?100 to FoH if that ever actually happens.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Brian Whittakers Tache

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

Maybe it's like being called English when you are in America "Oh you're from England"? Not really offensive just annoying. As for "on you go" well, thanks very much dont mind if I do!

 

A couple of Welts in those articles. I'm all for folk having their say but FFS!

 

That happens to me occasionally over here. I just say I'm not and ask them what part of New Zealand they're from.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

Ah, but will it? Again, we live on a tiny wee island. The idea that we won't cooperate very closely on defence issues is a bit unlikely imo.

A weak spot affects them almost as much as it affects us and vice versa. They won't want that, either will we. Common sense will apply.

 

Having our own embassies (or even just our own representation, many countries share embassies as far as I'm aware, UK included) would only be a good thing as far as I can tell.

 

Yes, and how many times have joint exercises been carried out with the Irish military?

 

(kidding incidentally - Scotland being in NATO will make a big difference)

[Alba gu Brath]

Rory Stewart is one of the most intelligent & talented individuals of his generation. Have you ever heard him speak?

 

Sure, some people will write him off because he went to a private school, but I urge you to listen to this man. Truly a credit to Scotland.

 

As for this handholding stuff, well, I've signed up, but I'm not convinced

 

This is the problem with private schools. Not the ex-pupils themselves but the fact that some of them get places simply on account of their accent and school tie. Even if they're as thick as pigshit.

 

Our Rory's Hadrian's Wall stunt is as daft and geographically flimsy at Farage's Aberdeen election press conference in Edinburgh. Oh, forgot about his three hands bull - just which school taught him biology?

Edited February 7, 2014 by Alba gu Brath

[TheMaganator]

 

 

This is the problem with private schools. Not the ex-pupils themselves but the fact that some of them get places simply on account of their accent and school tie. Even if they're as thick as pigshit.

 

Our Rory's Hadrian's Wall stunt is as daft and geographically flimsy at Farage's Aberdeen election press conference in Edinburgh.

This may be true for some. But read about this guy

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rory_Stewart

 

We all get places because of our backgrounds - whether it be an apprenticeship with our mate's dads company or a recommendation into a position in a political party.

 

It's not just a problem with private schools

 

[luckydug]

This may be true for some. But read about this guy

 

http://en.m.wikipedi...ki/Rory_Stewart

 

We all get places because of our backgrounds - whether it be an apprenticeship with our mate's dads company or a recommendation into a position in a political party.

 

It's not just a problem with private schools

 

 

No we don't.

Perhaps you and your chums did though.

[modedit]

[TheMaganator]

 

 

 

No we don't.

Perhaps you and your chums did though.

[modedit]

clearly didn't understand the point made there then.

 

Really, you've never had preferential treatment in any aspect of life because of someone you know?

 

But we're moving away from the point - that Stewart is a credit to Scotland

[Alba gu Brath]

This may be true for some. But read about this guy

 

http://en.m.wikipedi...ki/Rory_Stewart

 

We all get places because of our backgrounds - whether it be an apprenticeship with our mate's dads company or a recommendation into a position in a political party.

 

It's not just a problem with private schools

 

Aye, but there's places and there's places.

 

[modedit]

[GrimUpNorth]

I know some who think Holyrood is an engine which furthers central belt agendas and spends most money there - looking at how long we've taken to improve the A9 since 1999 they may have a point. Also, the UK gave into the EU on these matters to get into the EU, or the EEC as it was. We'll never ever know what a Scottish government would've done to get into the EU. However, if independent little will alter to the Common Fisheries Policy to return that industry to what it was.

 

Your first sentence is spot on, I live as far north as you can get and that's exactly how I feel.

[Alba gu Brath]

If you thought a debate between Salmond and Cameron would be attractive....

I'm sure it's metaphorical btw.

 

 

[Alba gu Brath]

And a bit closer to home for poor Dave:

 

[redm]

Anyone see Flint vs Ewing on the news last night on the matter of where Scotland & rUK will get their power:

Flint "Scotland gets 33% of energy from nuclear and the plans of the SNP are to close that down"

Ewing "no, that's totally wrong"

 

Just another innocent porky pie, of course. But that doesn't matter, so long as they get what they want, of course.

 

 

If only it was that simple! It's not a case of closing them down, it's about phasing them out (as per their original decommissioning plans) and replacing the electricity they provide via alternative sources.

It's not uncommon for operators to try and extend their life well beyond the original decommission date to the point where they're pretty old and unreliable. That's bad from perspectives of safety, environment and productivity/reliability.

 

Not only that, both building and closing nuclear power stations is outrageously expensive. Westminster promised no further subsidies for nuclear and then committed 50billion for a new station down south to EDF. Sellafield cost between 65 and 70 billion to decommission and a recent programme of wider decommissioning cost us another 50 billion there too. This is money from the public purse which could be used for renewables subsidies instead and for a country like ours where the majority are against nuclear and pro-renewables that's understandably a big problem. It's an insane amount of money.

 

Meanwhile there's electricity reform and reduction in subsidies for large scale commercial renewables leading to uncertainty for developers and operators therefore risk margins shoot up and they slow down. If they slow down, we don't build new wind/wave/tidal/hydro and we fall further and further behind our targets. Security of supply becomes a potential issue and at worst, the lights go off. That's the very short version of that story.

Edited February 7, 2014 by redm

[redm]

This may be true for some. But read about this guy

 

http://en.m.wikipedi...ki/Rory_Stewart

 

We all get places because of our backgrounds - whether it be an apprenticeship with our mate's dads company or a recommendation into a position in a political party.

 

It's not just a problem with private schools

 

There's a considerable difference between the 'normal' fee paying schools of Edinburgh and the privileged toff factories of Eton, Harrow and maybe even Fettes. Those places are churning out the goons who are quite literally born into power of one sort or another, whether that be purely through the circles in which they mix or the opportunities which come their way. A completely different world and a whole other level of privilege.

Edited February 7, 2014 by redm

[TheMaganator]

 

 

There's a considerable difference between the 'normal' fee paying schools of Edinburgh and the privileged toff factories of Eton, Harrow and maybe even Fettes. Those places are churning out the goons who are quite literally born into power of one sort or another, whether that be purely through the circles in which they mix or the opportunities which come their way. A completely different world and a whole other level of privilege.

There'll be many that dismiss you as a toff though, Redm, just because you went to a private school. They'll say you got a leg up and a help in life because of your school tie.

 

Sure, many will have an easier route to power then others, but just because they went to a good school, worked hard and got into a good university, doesn't make them less able.

[billco98]

On a lighter note, I received the following take on the Referendum from a pal:

If Scotland gains its independence after the forthcoming referendum, the remainder of the United Kingdom will be known as the Former United Kingdom.... (F.U.K.).

In a bid to discourage Scots from voting 'Yes' in the referendum, it is claimed that Lib Dems have now begun a campaign with the slogan:

"Please Vote No For ######'s Sake!"

They feel that the voters will be able to relate to this, particularly those in Glasgow. !

[TheMaganator]

On a lighter note, I received the following take on the Referendum from a pal:

If Scotland gains its independence after the forthcoming referendum, the remainder of the United Kingdom will be known as the Former United Kingdom.... (F.U.K.).

In a bid to discourage Scots from voting 'Yes' in the referendum, it is claimed that Lib Dems have now begun a campaign with the slogan:

"Please Vote No For ######'s Sake!"

They feel that the voters will be able to relate to this, particularly those in Glasgow. !

 

Back on topic - the EU will be publishing it's legal advice on Scotland's fast tracked membership in a few weeks.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-eu-to-outline-legal-advice-1-3298316

Interesting times

 

[redm]

There'll be many that dismiss you as a toff though, Redm, just because you went to a private school. They'll say you got a leg up and a help in life because of your school tie.

 

Sure, many will have an easier route to power then others, but just because they went to a good school, worked hard and got into a good university, doesn't make them less able.

 

I can quite honestly say that not one person has ever said that to me in my whole life.

Although I'm under no illusions that having a good school's name on my UCAS form probably helped with the universities I chose to apply with.

Since then? Not a thing.

 

I've had mates take the pee when I said things like 'refectory' instead of 'cafeteria or canteen', or explained how not doing homework brought out the fear of god in me. But it has never ever been a consideration in my professional life. Then again, I didn't go to a proper toff school and I didn't join a proper toff industry or go into politics.

 

This is going off topic but I will say this, you do seem to have a wee hang-up with things relating to your schooling. You mention it a lot. It sounds like your experiences are maybe a little different from many of the rest of us. I don't mean that in a catty way either btw.

 

So....yeah...er, will fee paying schools keep charitable status in an independent Scotland?

[TheMaganator]

 

 

I can quite honestly say that not one person has ever said that to me in my whole life.

Although I'm under no illusions that having a good school's name on my UCAS form probably helped with the universities I chose to apply with.

Since then? Not a thing.

 

I've had mates take the pee when I said things like 'refectory' instead of 'cafeteria or canteen', or explained how not doing homework brought out the fear of god in me. But it has never ever been a consideration in my professional life. Then again, I didn't go to a proper toff school and I didn't join a proper toff industry or go into politics.

 

This is going off topic but I will say this, you do seem to have a wee hang-up with things relating to your schooling. You mention it a lot. It sounds like your experiences are maybe a little different from many of the rest of us. I don't mean that in a catty way either btw.

 

So....yeah...er, will fee paying schools keep charitable status in an independent Scotland?

All fair enough.

 

Not got a hang up - I just think it disgusting that people are comfortable judging people because they went to a private school and dismissing their views because, you know, what do they know. Reverse that & dismiss somebody who went to a poorly performing state school in a poor area and people would, quite rightly, be disgusted. And I only raise it in this thread because Massie & Stewart are often framed and pigeonholed by some on here because of their accent & schooling.

 

But, yes, we are way off topic

[Gorgiewave]

I went to Watson's and I haven't got a job or made a penny or got anything from it at all other than good friends, a warm welcome and self-confidence. My first job, in a call centre I got through my step-sister, the only time I've had anything handed to me like that.

 

As before, people dont choose the circumstances into which they're born, their genes, their parents, the time or the place. Goung to Eton or Oxford is not a sin. Judging people by things they can't control is unfair. Play the policy not the man.

[redm]

All fair enough.

 

Not got a hang up - I just think it disgusting that people are comfortable judging people because they went to a private school and dismissing their views because, you know, what do they know. Reverse that & dismiss somebody who went to a poorly performing state school in a poor area and people would, quite rightly, be disgusted. And I only raise it in this thread because Massie & Stewart are often framed and pigeonholed by some on here because of their accent & schooling.

 

But, yes, we are way off topic

 

I was coming back to either re-word or delete that, came across a little differently than I intended. No offence meant there.

[dc-jambo]

[modedit]

[redm]

I went to Watson's and I haven't got a job or made a penny or got anything from it at all other than good friends, a warm welcome and self-confidence. My first job, in a call centre I got through my step-sister, the only time I've had anything handed to me like that.

 

As before, people dont choose the circumstances into which they're born, their genes, their parents, the time or the place. Goung to Eton or Oxford is not a sin. Judging people by things they can't control is unfair. Play the policy not the man.

 

I was really at the beginning of a wider rant about the rich and privileged holding all the positions of power, how they have the bulk of the money too and why that's a bad thing in terms of trying to create and more fair and equal society. Conservative party being a case in point. My view of the Uk and Westminster fits very well into that. I feel like that distance between normal working people and those who call the shots is just far far too much at the moment, nor can I see that changing in the UK anytime soon.

 

I've never felt further away from Westminster. Basically.

[TheMaganator]

[modedit]

 

Assuming you mean me, can you point me towards where I was defending nuclear power?

[GrimUpNorth]

Don't know if anyone listened to Jeremy Vine this afternoon, there was a discussion on the referendum. I've noticed it a lot and one of the last callers on the show again touched on it, re the Empire and colonies etc. There seems to be a complete arrogance and re-writing of history going on with some from the Yes side, it's as if no Scots were involved in the empire, and that Scotland didn't benefit from it. Half the East India Company were Scots, a third of the colony governor-generals between 1850 and 1939 were Scots, the first PM of Canada was born in Glasgow, and so on. We were just as complicit (if thats your view of it) as the rUK was.

 

Same with Iraq, "us Scots would never stand for it" apparently. We helped vote in Blair in 97, and again in 01, and again AFTER the invasion in 05. We only ditched them for the same reasons as England did, Gordon Brown and the Economy. We also had Salmond declare we'd have been part of any possible strike on Syria under NATO should it have happened and if we were independent.

 

The above is no reason to vote either way in my mind, just an observation.

 

I still maintain I'm undecided as re September, if the vote were tomorrow I'd vote no, but I can certainly be persuaded to vote yes. Reason for my no stance right now is I don't see the necessity, I'd like to see what further devolved powers we may get. I see the future being more closer ties with as many countries around the world outside/inside the UK as possible, I think we'd be better within a United Kingdom and the EU. I think we'd be better in partnership with rUK rather than competing against them. I'm really not fussed on a few quid either way.

 

One other point why I'd vote no, I'd rather the UK as a whole improved rather than just Scotland. I live in the far North, I have far more in common with Geordies, Mancs, Scousers etc than I do with some rich oil folk in Aberdeen or some rich bankers in Edinburgh. If Scotland really were going to be a much better off and fairer country (I don't agree, but do see it a lot from the yes side) then I'd rather we didn't ditch the folk I've mentioned above, and tried to improve from within as a whole instead of separating us along nationalist lines. Galloway made the point last night on QT about how we need more people from lower socio-economic groups involved in politics and how to get more younger folk out voting. That's what's needed to improve imo and we don't need constitutional reform for that.

 

Couple of questions for those who are more clued up than I am, this has probably been mentioned and discussed above, I know next to nothing on economics etc, why are nearly all of those on the NO side poo-pooing a currency union, what is it we are in right now ? If we were to enter a currency union how is it any different to what we have right now ?

 

Also, how could we go about removing Trident right now without independence ? Why hasn't this been attempted before ? Why don't the rUK call their bluff and offer to take it ?

 

Forgotten the third question I had, it'll come back to me.

 

And fwiw seeing as he's in the spotlight today, if there are to be a series of debates rather than just the one, Cameron should be up here as part of one. Everything surrounding his speech today was embarrassing, including Salmond's "fearty" response. Like school children at times. Was listening to a lot of it on the radio and found myself shouting at both of them to shut up.

[redm]

[modedit]

 

See my post above, Exactly the point I was making, although the cost of Hinkley Point was meant to be around 14 billion the total comes to 50 billion to cover guaranteed levy. Scandal isn't even the right word, especially when you consider that it'll cost tens of billions again to decommission - and that's before you think about environmental damage or nuclear waste.

[Gorgiewave]

redm, but the SNP have not brought about any significant transfer of power to local communities. Oil and banking will be central to the New Scotland. Please read Tom Gallagher's book "The Illusion of Freedom" before voting.

[TheMaganator]

Don't know if anyone listened to Jeremy Vine this afternoon, there was a discussion on the referendum. I've noticed it a lot and one of the last callers on the show again touched on it, re the Empire and colonies etc. There seems to be a complete arrogance and re-writing of history going on with some from the Yes side, it's as if no Scots were involved in the empire, and that Scotland didn't benefit from it. Half the East India Company were Scots, a third of the colony governor-generals between 1850 and 1939 were Scots, the first PM of Canada was born in Glasgow, and so on. We were just as complicit (if thats your view of it) as the rUK was.

 

Same with Iraq, "us Scots would never stand for it" apparently. We helped vote in Blair in 97, and again in 01, and again AFTER the invasion in 05. We only ditched them for the same reasons as England did, Gordon Brown and the Economy. We also had Salmond declare we'd have been part of any possible strike on Syria under NATO should it have happened and if we were independent.

 

The above is no reason to vote either way in my mind, just an observation.

 

I still maintain I'm undecided as re September, if the vote were tomorrow I'd vote no, but I can certainly be persuaded to vote yes. Reason for my no stance right now is I don't see the necessity, I'd like to see what further devolved powers we may get. I see the future being more closer ties with as many countries around the world outside/inside the UK as possible, I think we'd be better within a United Kingdom and the EU. I think we'd be better in partnership with rUK rather than competing against them. I'm really not fussed on a few quid either way.

 

One other point why I'd vote no, I'd rather the UK as a whole improved rather than just Scotland. I live in the far North, I have far more in common with Geordies, Mancs, Scousers etc than I do with some rich oil folk in Aberdeen or some rich bankers in Edinburgh. If Scotland really were going to be a much better off and fairer country (I don't agree, but do see it a lot from the yes side) then I'd rather we didn't ditch the folk I've mentioned above, and tried to improve from within as a whole instead of separating us along nationalist lines. Galloway made the point last night on QT about how we need more people from lower socio-economic groups involved in politics and how to get more younger folk out voting. That's what's needed to improve imo and we don't need constitutional reform for that.

 

Couple of questions for those who are more clued up than I am, this has probably been mentioned and discussed above, I know next to nothing on economics etc, why are nearly all of those on the NO side poo-pooing a currency union, what is it we are in right now ? If we were to enter a currency union how is it any different to what we have right now ?

 

Also, how could we go about removing Trident right now without independence ? Why hasn't this been attempted before ? Why don't the rUK call their bluff and offer to take it ?

 

Forgotten the third question I had, it'll come back to me.

 

And fwiw seeing as he's in the spotlight today, if there are to be a series of debates rather than just the one, Cameron should be up here as part of one. Everything surrounding his speech today was embarrassing, including Salmond's "fearty" response. Like school children at times. Was listening to a lot of it on the radio and found myself shouting at both of them to shut up.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/scottish-independence-snps-currency-union-plan-contradictory-moral-hazard-1435551

On your first question - we'd have to tie ourselves to the fiscal position of the UK. We'd a foreign country making up 10% of a union. We'll have little say in how it operates.

The above article & many more explain it better than me if you do a quick google search on 'Scottish currency union'

 

 

Trident will be in Scottish waters for decades even after a yes vote. Even if NATO allows is to move it we can't just untie the thing & push it south. There'll have to be a base set up in RUK to house it which won't be a quick process.

 

 

You're right that the debate debacle is getting ridiculous - Salmond needs to just shut up about it. It's not going to happen. There's not a single Yes voter that's be swayed by Cameron. The Yes camp want it for tactical reasons - so Salmond can bash the Tories.

[TheMaganator]

redm, but the SNP have not brought about any significant transfer of power to local communities. Oil and banking will be central to the New Scotland. Please read Tom Gallagher's book "The Illusion of Freedom" before voting.

Very true - the exact opposite in fact.

 

Just look at police Scotland as a beacon of how they operate.

[redm]

Don't know if anyone listened to Jeremy Vine this afternoon, there was a discussion on the referendum. I've noticed it a lot and one of the last callers on the show again touched on it, re the Empire and colonies etc. There seems to be a complete arrogance and re-writing of history going on with some from the Yes side, it's as if no Scots were involved in the empire, and that Scotland didn't benefit from it. Half the East India Company were Scots, a third of the colony governor-generals between 1850 and 1939 were Scots, the first PM of Canada was born in Glasgow, and so on. We were just as complicit (if thats your view of it) as the rUK was.

 

Same with Iraq, "us Scots would never stand for it" apparently. We helped vote in Blair in 97, and again in 01, and again AFTER the invasion in 05. We only ditched them for the same reasons as England did, Gordon Brown and the Economy. We also had Salmond declare we'd have been part of any possible strike on Syria under NATO should it have happened and if we were independent.

 

The above is no reason to vote either way in my mind, just an observation.

 

Not sureI have anything to say here, it's not the sort of discussion I generally hear from the Yes voters I discuss things with. Jeremy Vine does attract the characters though.

 

I still maintain I'm undecided as re September, if the vote were tomorrow I'd vote no, but I can certainly be persuaded to vote yes. Reason for my no stance right now is I don't see the necessity, I'd like to see what further devolved powers we may get. I see the future being more closer ties with as many countries around the world outside/inside the UK as possible, I think we'd be better within a United Kingdom and the EU. I think we'd be better in partnership with rUK rather than competing against them. I'm really not fussed on a few quid either way.

 

If there were any devolved powers worth having they'd have mentioned it by now, but they haven't. They refuse to say anything at all about what the alternative to independence might be and that worries me. If there was something to sell to us, they would have sold it by now. As for competing, what kind of thing do you mean? What sort of competition?

 

One other point why I'd vote no, I'd rather the UK as a whole improved rather than just Scotland. I live in the far North, I have far more in common with Geordies, Mancs, Scousers etc than I do with some rich oil folk in Aberdeen or some rich bankers in Edinburgh. If Scotland really were going to be a much better off and fairer country (I don't agree, but do see it a lot from the yes side) then I'd rather we didn't ditch the folk I've mentioned above, and tried to improve from within as a whole instead of separating us along nationalist lines. Galloway made the point last night on QT about how we need more people from lower socio-economic groups involved in politics and how to get more younger folk out voting. That's what's needed to improve imo and we don't need constitutional reform for that.

 

I don't feel like I'm abandoning them because it makes no difference to them if we're around or not really. Staying isn't going to help them any more than leaving will. And if I genuinely believed there was any chance of change on that scale I wouldn't be anywhere near as enthusiastic as I am about independence. We can't do anything to influence change when we only represent 9% of the total at Westminster. Doesn't work out so badly when there's a government who make some decisions that reflect our own priorities but when you have a government who take decisions that feel so far removed from the views held in this part of the country, it's just too much. All of the things that we could use to make a difference are in their hands - we just have to sit by and watch basically.

 

Couple of questions for those who are more clued up than I am, this has probably been mentioned and discussed above, I know next to nothing on economics etc, why are nearly all of those on the NO side poo-pooing a currency union, what is it we are in right now ? If we were to enter a currency union how is it any different to what we have right now ?

 

I'm no economics whizz but basically their suggestion (from what I understand) is that because the pound is controlled by Bank of England and BOE are central bank of UK that this in some way dilutes independence and if it's diluted then it's not worth having anyway. Which is weird. What they never mention is that any sort of currency issues or financial instability is the last thing Westminster wants and it's just as much in their interests as it is in ours to proceed on this issue with great care and common sense. We have little to no influence over anything as it stands, I'm not clear what we'd be losing but this isn't an area I understand in any sort of detail!

 

Also, how could we go about removing Trident right now without independence ? Why hasn't this been attempted before ? Why don't the rUK call their bluff and offer to take it ?

 

I don't think there's anywhere else suitable for it as it stands, nor could they really find the money to relocate it. Mostly though, they don't want to move it. It's where it is because they decided that if we were attacked and Trident was targeted, that was the best place for it to be because the associated impact/loss of life would be considered acceptable. They've stuck it up here because they don't want it anywhere near them

 

Forgotten the third question I had, it'll come back to me.

 

And fwiw seeing as he's in the spotlight today, if there are to be a series of debates rather than just the one, Cameron should be up here as part of one. Everything surrounding his speech today was embarrassing, including Salmond's "fearty" response. Like school children at times. Was listening to a lot of it on the radio and found myself shouting at both of them to shut up.

 

I was shocked by just how badly he handled today. That speech was terrible. A real gift for the yes campaign and what sort of comms professionals would not only let him make that daft speech but also let him do it from behind a Glasgow Cal branded podium in LONDON? Nuts! He pretty much said that losing Scotland would be a considerable loss, kind of goes against the whole 'subsidised alcoholics, idiots and junkies' theme. So much for not having the resources to stand on our own two feet.

Edited February 8, 2014 by redm

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

I look forward to having an Independence Day to celebrate, just like the Indian side of my family. Also it is sad when I talk to my Polish workmate about how much happier she is, now that her country is not run by others.

 

We can be such a cowardly, cowed and backward wee country sometimes.

[redm]

redm, but the SNP have not brought about any significant transfer of power to local communities. Oil and banking will be central to the New Scotland. Please read Tom Gallagher's book "The Illusion of Freedom" before voting.

 

What sort of power or empowerment do you mean?

Are we talking delegated powers to local authorities, social empowerment?

[redm]

Very true - the exact opposite in fact.

 

Just look at police Scotland as a beacon of how they operate.

 

I admit I've not yet been impressed by Police Scotland.

In some ways I can understand why consultation brought about streamlining of the various forces but initial impressions haven't been great.

I'm willing to give it time though, see what happens. Local authorities have been given a greater role in reviewing the efficacy of the police service so that might be useful.

[GrimUpNorth]

Redm, Maganator, thanks for the replies. I dunno if I'm being ridiculously stupid here or what, but are we in a similar currency union right now ? How would it differ ?

 

Another quick question while I'm on, how much canvassing is going on around Scotland at the moment ? Up here I haven't heard or seen anything from anyone, no leaflets through the door, nobody on the high street or stalls anywhere, no phone calls etc.

[Felix Lighter]

redm, but the SNP have not brought about any significant transfer of power to local communities. Oil and banking will be central to the New Scotland. Please read Tom Gallagher's book "The Illusion of Freedom" before voting.

 

Any chance you could provide a synopsis of the authors opinion on banking in 'New Scotland'?Also, would it be correct to assume 'New Scotland' is the authors way of describing Scotland after a Yes result?

[SE16 3LN]

I look forward to having an Independence Day to celebrate, just like the Indian side of my family. Also it is sad when I talk to my Polish workmate about how much happier she is, now that her country is not run by others.

 

We can be such a cowardly, cowed and backward wee country sometimes.

I love this reasoning. Polish people were tortured and executed in their thousands by Germans and Soviets for decades. They had no vote and no say in the way their country was run. Scotland has had Prime Minister's and cabinet minister's, politicians elected at all levels of Government by Scots and non Scots alike. We had two referendum on whether we wanted our own parliament and now have a referendum on independence. There were also governments in Westminster that were only there because of the Scottish Labour vote. A magnificent nation, with magnificent people who thankfully never had to endure what the Poles endured. It will continue to be a brilliant country whether the vote is yes or no.

[redm]

I love this reasoning. Polish people were tortured and executed in their thousands by Germans and Soviets for decades. They had no vote and no say in the way their country was run. Scotland has had Prime Minister's and cabinet minister's, politicians elected at all levels of Government by Scots and non Scots alike. We had two referendum on whether we wanted our own parliament and now have a referendum on independence. There were also governments in Westminster that were only there because of the Scottish Labour vote. A magnificent nation, with magnificent people who thankfully never had to endure what the Poles endured. It will continue to be a brilliant country whether the vote is yes or no.

 

I can mostly say the same. A great country and I'm proud that it's my home but if I'm being entirely honest I have to admit that if we don't take this chance to do things for ourselves I'm going to feel a bit ashamed. I don't like that prospect, but denying ourselves self-determination doesn't fit with the expectations others will have of Scotland.

 

Listening to colleagues of mine from other EU countries is tough, they're fully expecting us to march on out in September, grab our chance by the scruff of the neck and take control. No messing about. They think that's what and who we are.

 

I hate the idea of anyone pitying us.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Redm, Maganator, thanks for the replies. I dunno if I'm being ridiculously stupid here or what, but are we in a similar currency union right now ? How would it differ ?

 

At the moment, the Scottish government is given a block grant by Westminster to spend how it sees fit. It can also vary some taxes, such as the basic level of income tax, or local taxes like the council tax.The overall macroeconomic framework is in Westminster's remit, and the currency is controlled by the Bank of England whose responsibility is to control the inflation target (and print funny money to save banks ).

 

Now, in an independent Scotland, Scotland can set all the taxes it wants to, set government spending at whatever level it is and run whatever surplus or deficit on the public finances it wishes. The Scottish electorate would vote accordingly.

 

In a currency union, however, Scotland would be unable to do that. Indeed, Scotland would have to move in line with Westminster because (i) Scotland is one tenth roughly of the currency zone, meaning it has very little leverage in economic direction and (ii) if it didn't, speculators would move capital away from Scotland (on the assumption Scotland would run a bigger fiscal deficit which left of centre governments tend to get associated with more) to the rest of the UK, leaving Scotland in a situation with a capital shortage and the Bank of England being lender of last resort.

 

To overcome this scenario, a strict fiscal pact must be adhered to within the zone, meaning that a "sovereign" government can be forced to either raise taxes or cut spending against its will, even if the electorate did not vote for it. It also creates more investor uncertainty, with investors demanding a higher interest rate for lending governments money. This is why it is an issue for the rest of the UK.

 

Scotland can, of course, use sterling if it wishes outside of a currency zone. It then runs the risk, however, of running out of sterling and not being able to pay its bills.

 

So a separate Scottish currency makes much more sense. In the initial stages, to "prove" Scotland's fiscal rectitude, it would make sense to peg the currency to sterling at a 1:1 exchange rate and a new Scottish Central Bank work with the Bank of England to preserve that rate. This allows for breaking of the link if there was some sort of economic shock (e.g. a spike in the price of oil which would drive up the Scottish pound relative to sterling and make Scottish goods in the rest of the UK relatively more uncompetitive to domestic goods). Then after a period of time (5 years say), the Scottish Central Bank could float the Scottish pound and allow it to find its own level.

 

A currency zone keeps taxpayers in the rest of the UK on the hook to bail out a Scottish government and vice versa. How would Scots feel if they had to pony up for Barclays going tits up, for example, in an independent Scotland? Similarly, if Westminster went to war against someone in the Middle East and borrowed more, how would Scots feel about that as their government responded in kind to maintain the fiscal pact?

Edited February 8, 2014 by Geoff Kilpatrick

[Coco]

 

Back on topic - the EU will be publishing it's legal advice on Scotland's fast tracked membership in a few weeks.

http://m.scotsman.co...dvice-1-3298316

Interesting times

 

There might be a difference between the European Parliament publishing its legal advice and a definitive EU position?

[The Real Maroonblood]

I thought Cameron's speech was very rousing.

Not really it was a lot of s***e and gave me the boak.

 

[jack D and coke]

I love this reasoning. Polish people were tortured and executed in their thousands by Germans and Soviets for decades. They had no vote and no say in the way their country was run. Scotland has had Prime Minister's and cabinet minister's, politicians elected at all levels of Government by Scots and non Scots alike. We had two referendum on whether we wanted our own parliament and now have a referendum on independence. There were also governments in Westminster that were only there because of the Scottish Labour vote. A magnificent nation, with magnificent people who thankfully never had to endure what the Poles endured. It will continue to be a brilliant country whether the vote is yes or no.

It's has been proved that no Scottish vote has ever determined to who gets into power. If I can find the piece I'll post it. It just so happens that anytime labour has made it it's been the English vote that has sealed it regardless.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

I spent the night in the garden with a torch and a shotgun in case one of Cameron's conscripts came to my door to try and convince me that as a Scottish voter, I should listen to them and their wise English/Welsh/N Irish advice on the future of my land. Tomorrow I'm building a trebuchet to defend my street... I confess that I decided a trebuchet was better than a giant crossbow, purely because it sounds a bit foreign and that would piss Cameron and Farage off the most.

[dc-jambo]

Redm, Maganator, thanks for the replies. I dunno if I'm being ridiculously stupid here or what, but are we in a similar currency union right now ? How would it differ ?

 

Another quick question while I'm on, how much canvassing is going on around Scotland at the moment ? Up here I haven't heard or seen anything from anyone, no leaflets through the door, nobody on the high street or stalls anywhere, no phone calls etc.

 

Hi Mr Grim,

 

Loads going on, at least on the Yes side, check out: http://yesscotland.nationbuilder.com/join_an_event

[TheMaganator]

Redm, Maganator, thanks for the replies. I dunno if I'm being ridiculously stupid here or what, but are we in a similar currency union right now ? How would it differ ?

 

Another quick question while I'm on, how much canvassing is going on around Scotland at the moment ? Up here I haven't heard or seen anything from anyone, no leaflets through the door, nobody on the high street or stalls anywhere, no phone calls etc.

Geoff has explained the currency union pretty well above.

 

There's quite a bit of canvassing in Edinburgh. BT did a huge leafleting last weekend in most of the train stations. One of the biggest nationalist websites tried to organise its followers to attend the train stations & film anyone engaging in it - which the nobody on here seemed bothered about - which surprised me.

 

I get stuff through my door from both sides

[flecktimus]

I spent the night in the garden with a torch and a shotgun in case one of Cameron's conscripts came to my door to try and convince me that as a Scottish voter, I should listen to them and their wise English/Welsh/N Irish advice on the future of my land. Tomorrow I'm building a trebuchet to defend my street... I confess that I decided a trebuchet was better than a giant crossbow, purely because it sounds a bit foreign and that would piss Cameron and Farage off the most.

 

30yrs i lived down there and not one bloody phone call, i feel very unloved this am.