Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Hagar the Horrible]

4 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I agree with part of what you're saying, the SNP are just in it now for powers sake. Swinney will need to get serious fast about Indy to stop voter apathy, and I do not believe he has the vision to deliver that. 

 

However, I would caution against assuming that the yes camp WILL lose if there is another referendum. David Cameron's hubris brought about brexit in making assumptions. People move over to supporting Independence when it is campaigned for. The lead up to 2014 proved that, and with essentially 6% needed for a win, its far from a done deal. Especially with the lies told by Better Together in 2014, the difficulty to secure a 2nd vote and obviously Brexit - Yes Scotland activists will campaign like a man possessed, because the likelihood of a 3rd bite at the apple is impossible in our lifetime IMO. I wouldn't write off a significant number of voters saying **** it, Anything is better than the current direction of travel. Lets not forget that in 2014, we were still in the EU, so the argument that a no vote secured EU membership was true. Its now not. As of June 2021 there were 231k EU citizens in Scotland, lets think for a moment about what direction they'd vote if the yes camp is saying we will rejoin the EEA and the no camp don't have that carrot anymore? Back in 2014, they were voting in their interests, and I think the same would be true in the next one, only their interests have changed. 

The SNP (Nicola) wanted to use the next GE as a de-facto referendum, while be careful what you wish for, the Unionist parties (labour) will spin a disaster at the ballot for the SNP as just that.  But the yes campaign wont go away nor diminished its just that it is NOT item 1 on most peoples agenda right now.

 

No point in convincong those who have already made up you mind, but the NO voters just need answer which so far not one, even as much as what currency will we use has been answered.   A pamphlet with a Saltire and smiling faces is all that they have delivered as a manifesto 

[JudyJudyJudy]

16 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

The thing to remember is that folk tend to become more conservative the older they get as they acquire dependents and material goods that need protecting. Therefore, it is erroneous to think that the younger demographic will merely get older but hold the same views, displacing the older generation with their opposite views. if that were the case, we would all be voting left-wing and independence would have been a scoot. The younger generation of today will most probably have the same views as the older generation have now when they get to their age. Sitting back and merely waiting for younger people to get older won't work as a strategy.

Hood posting 

14 hours ago, AyrJambo said:

 

Got to be @JudyJudyJudy no?

The seat of the pants international relations ride would be exhilarating

This would be my running tag line 

[Gundermann]

9 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

But those figures are also spin, it was 37% of the electorate.  It was a referendum based on change, it was down to the proposers to make a case for it, but instead as 55% of those who bothered to vote, still had to get up out of their chairs and care enough to vote against it.  there was 15% of voters who did not vote, so the campaign failed to convince them.  It cannot be spun any other way than they did not want it.  But the 2 big hitters Wee Eck and Wee-er Nicola did not sell the idea to the unconvinced (non-voters) and to the masses in the 55% NO voters who may have changed their minds.

 

It needs to be evidenced that it will work, not get it over the line and we will figure it out as we go....That's what happened to Brexit

 

Swinney is the Status Quo, expect more greiveance politics and blame WM for their failures.

 

The Tories will get hammered by Bland SKS implementing the same bleeding policies, but Penny will take over in the next GE and it will be balanced.  The SNP need wiped out just to preserve balance, they wont be that much of a success in reality but change is paramount.  It will reset the SNP to ither chose to be activist or establishment.  You cant be the protest party when you are in charge,  And Indy2 was never Item 1 on their agenda otherwise they would have spent the last 10 years convincing the rest of us, its a good thing

 

Sure. There's only one way to rectify this and take complete ownership over all our decisions, be they good or bad.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Ok 55% -60% ??? I dunno . But it has to be a significant margin between yes and no to be sure . I was too busy yesterday to answer. I’m hungover today . 😎 there could be a commission set up to decide the intricate issues of a new ref with the agreement that all politicians agree with their recommendations? Remember there was various discussions of “ grown ups” before the last one about the wording of the last ref in areas such as whether it was 

“ Yes/no “ or “ leave / remain “ on the ballot . I think the unionists conceded quite a few things to allow the vote to go ahead . 

[Hagar the Horrible]

2 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

What are you talking about? The voter turn out was 84.6%, where is 37% coming from - EU referendum? 2014 was 84.6% - which is massive. 

 

I think the referendum in 2014 was a very difficult task but the impact now is that around half the country want Independence, compared to less than a third before. That is huge, and as time goes by I expect that number will rise. Especially if a 2nd referendum can actually be tabled. 

Should have explained  4,283,392  was the total number of registered voters, 1,617,989 voted YES which is 37.7% of the total rather than the turn-out, Spin is Spin, but that is a hard fact 37.& people wanted it compared to 46.7% of those who cared to vote NO against the proposal and 15.4% who did not bother and as it is up to the proposer to convince a non vote is a NO vote, otherwise there should be an abstain. Them is the Rules.  Its still huge I give you that, But Humza has soured that campaign and Swinney has no real appetite to revive it, just pay lip service to keep the gravy boat filled,  But is does mean for the most of us who want to just get on with fixing the real issues, being distracted by a false promise of it will be all right on the night

[Tommy Brown]

2 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

The same should have happened with Brexit, and a decisive figure rather than 50%+1, but the off-set to that it must become law that you must vote.   I would say >55%

I would argue if people don't want to vote for whatever reason that is fine.

A forced vote is a shit vote.

If you have no care whatever party or decision then I would rather the public that do care are responsible for the outcome.

[The Real Maroonblood]

9 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Sure. There's only one way to rectify this and take complete ownership over all our decisions, be they good or bad.

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Should have explained  4,283,392  was the total number of registered voters, 1,617,989 voted YES which is 37.7% of the total rather than the turn-out, Spin is Spin, but that is a hard fact 37.& people wanted it compared to 46.7% of those who cared to vote NO against the proposal and 15.4% who did not bother and as it is up to the proposer to convince a non vote is a NO vote, otherwise there should be an abstain. Them is the Rules.  Its still huge I give you that, But Humza has soured that campaign and Swinney has no real appetite to revive it, just pay lip service to keep the gravy boat filled,  But is does mean for the most of us who want to just get on with fixing the real issues, being distracted by a false promise of it will be all right on the night

Good posting 

[il Duce McTarkin]

22 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Nonsense. Sure, there will always be some 'issues' or friction - I don't doubt the Spanish overfished 'our' waters though equally they weren't chuffed about our criminal classes decanting to the Costa del Crime - but by and large all nations got on well barring the repeated dragging of heals and gurning from Little Englanders. Christ, if the likes of France and Poland can work cordially with Germany despite recent history, then why TF can't the UK?

 

Oh, as to the Indy bit. Yes is still at 50% in the polls, give or take. Support for self-determination has been consistently higher than support for the SNP for some time now. Even before Starmer, there was something like 30% of Labour voters who were pro-indy. There's been a lot of disquiet in the Branch Office recently with Starmer calling the shots over stuff like Gaza and the bill for workers' rights.

 

Pretty much every negative in the world can be traced back to branch offices and little Englanders.

 

[Hagar the Horrible]

9 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Sure. There's only one way to rectify this and take complete ownership over all our decisions, be they good or bad.

Then use that as their manifesto, It will be a vat of Human excrement but it will be independent human excrement.

 

Forget the Hyperbole be honest, just answer the basic of questions?  and an itinerary?  Not you, the SNP

We will create a Central Bank

We will strive to meet the qualifications of the EU membership.

We will get support from the EU before a vote

We will Join the Euro-zone

We will support the SHS (our NHS) by doing this...

We will create our own SRC (HMRC) by doing this at east Kilbride

We will create out own Passport office by buying support from the UK in Glasgow by doing this;

We will build and pay for a  Swansea in Perth or somewhere for Driving Licences by doing this:

We Will get at least one working Ferry.

We will work with the UK on a joint Ministry of Defence (or go it alone) by doing this:

We will put in renewal energies but lets be realistic we might need a Nuclear Power station (which is actually green)

We will self finance a national TV network, by buying back SBC rather than BBC, but a licence centre will need built in Greenock or Somewhere.

We willl accept national debt our share, and we will raise borrowing mechanism from the Global Bank,

We will tax the workers 30p in the £ to pay for it

We will still create a welfare state to keep the bone idol in luxury and pay for it by selling off palaces (this is selling off the family silver)

We will return to having the envy of the world our Education system (the one the SNP has trashed)

We will continue to have free university places by doing this:

We will have free prescriptions still.

 

Only thing is there will not be a SHS or any universities left open, and we also need stupid things like an MI5, Policing and Prisons, a Justice system, a policy on immigration, etc etc,

 

For good or bad, just make sure these will still be in place and evidence why, some thing we will get wrong sure, but it is how you learn and correct it that is how things should work

 

 

[Gizmo]

55 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Europe never treated the UK with any modicum of respect, The French in particular when there was a Foot & Mouth outbreak, they refused any of our goods, long after it was dealt with, and it was a European problem not just ours.  The Spanish were over fishing our waters.  They played into the hands of Farage and the fears of the public.

 

What should have happened was it became close just to give Europe a bloody nose, and we could have got a deal that helped our traders, our farmers, our fishermen,  But it was a done deal, and we are still not able to make it work, or call for a referendum to re-apply.

 

If we wanted Indy, we would have had it, we tried and failed that in 2014,  If it was ever to succeed then be prepared for 20 years of hardship, No NHS, No pensions, no benefits (state ones).

 

Swinney's job is to preserve the SNP as a power, Indy will be the carrot on a stick, to satisfy the activists, He like Nicola do not want another referendum as it will lose, and render the SNP totally pointless.

I cannot believe anyone can come out with such nonsense in 2024. 

[Hagar the Horrible]

Just now, Gizmo said:

I cannot believe anyone can come out with such nonsense in 2024. 

If you are going to make comments, please try and debate it, with an argument, its not nonsense its a debating point, so please explain why it is nonsense or I don't agree with you and here is why.  and what does the year have to do with anything, it was a view at that time, so what has changed, I gave a list of the items that should be answered, until we have a plan we don't have anything

[Gizmo]

9 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

If you are going to make comments, please try and debate it, with an argument, its not nonsense its a debating point, so please explain why it is nonsense or I don't agree with you and here is why.  and what does the year have to do with anything, it was a view at that time, so what has changed, I gave a list of the items that should be answered, until we have a plan we don't have anything

The stuff highlighted was put to bed in 2013, never mind 2024. If that's your starting point, to rehash ancient project fear nonsense, I'm not indulging in "debating" it. 

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, Jim_Duncan said:

 

OK, **** it, he can be independent every second week, and you can post as often as you like.

 

You can't say fairer than that.

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, Spellczech said:

you lost me...You went off at a tangent...You want me to justify that a generation is more than 10 years? I'm not here to educate you.

 

It's OK.  You meant it shouldn't be done because you don't want it.  You don't need to keep explaining.

 

 

[XB52]

1 hour ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

 

If we wanted Indy, we would have had it, we tried and failed that in 2014,  If it was ever to succeed then be prepared for 20 years of hardship, No NHS, No pensions, no benefits (state ones).

 

 

Bloody hell, you seriously can't believe that shite😀😀. If you do, a job with the daily mail awaits you 

[XB52]

38 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

I cannot believe anyone can come out with such nonsense in 2024. 

I honestly think he's insane, or just a unionist bot.

[Brighton Jambo]

19 hours ago, OTT said:

 

I'm talking about the figures around the polling. 

 

Polls are weighted so as to provide an accurate sample which reflects the make up of Scottish society. E.g. if 10% of Scots are 18-25 then 10% of those polled will be 18-25. However, Scotland has an aging population which means basically that when the polls are weighted, older people make up a higher proportion of the sample size to accurately reflect Scotland. 

 

This means that despite Yes dominating amongst the youth into early middle ages, the No camp have the edge essentially because pensioners back the union in their droves. That isn't a sustainable position because there isn't a long term to their vote. 

 

If I was a rabid Unionist, I'd be pretty concerned that only about 1 in 5 folk under 25 actually support the Union. It suggests to me that rather than bitterness sustaining our campaign for an Independent nation, we actually have hope and optimism behind us. The status quo offers none of that because there is no optimism around the Union. We're not on a path to anything within the UK. Just more of the same austerity and decling living standards in a broken brexit britain. 

I’m a unionist and am not concerned by that at all.  When I was younger more than half my friends supported Scottish independence passionately.  Then we grew up and now I could count on one hand the number who do and even they are scunnered by the whole thing.  Even my wife, when I met her, was pro Indy and now she ardently supports the union.   

 

The reason it changed is that way back when we had no responsibility or commitments.  Then we got mortgages, jobs, pensions became a thing, our children’s future wellbeing become paramount and suddenly the ‘it’ll be alright on the night, sunlit uplands of Indy’ didn’t look so appealing.   Youngsters love a protest vote; a stick it to the man cause, always have and always will and as they grow up it fades, that’s life and maybe not for all but most.

 

Until Scottish independence can be explained to people in a meaningful way that people can use to objectively determine whether it’s a positive or negative you will never get over the 50% mark.  Scotland is an ageing population, young people’s fervour subsides and they also vote in less numbers than the elderly.  The union is a safe as it’s been in years and to think otherwise is just delusion.  

 

 

[il Duce McTarkin]

25 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

ancient project fear nonsense.

 

Just like the stuff spouted by those wishy-washy Brexit naysayers, aye?

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, Spellczech said:

Respect works both ways. The SG has no remit for Foreign Policy therefore it should not be pushing censures of Israel or calling for ceasefires in Gaza to try to one-up Westminster...

 

The SG has not done their job for the last year, probably several years...and every time they are called on it they point the finger at Westminster and say they haven't got enough money or enough powers. They have become a bad joke, made worse because the UK Govt is similarly distracted by nonsense like gender regarding transexuals, and little quality or direction and few ideas...

 

Labour are likely to win the next election on a blank manifesto. People will vote for the unknown because they hate the status quo. This is a repeat of Brexit, and thank goodness Scots are not stupid enough to have done the same at both Indy 2014 and Brexit (though it did us no good)

Yes, respect does work both ways. And that means that Westminster respects the rights of Scottish politicians of whatever colour having a view on humanitarian crisis and other international issues of interest to Scotland and its people. Similarly, Westminster should respect the need and right for Holyrood to promote Scottish interests abroad given the opportunities for trade and investment  and specifically in the case of COP promoting our renewables industry.

I'd prefer politicians on both sides of the border to work together in the national interests of both Scotland and the UK. I get dismayed and impatient when supporters of either can only point the finger in one direction. It just encourages and excuses the pointless whataboutery of the chancers in charge.

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I’m a unionist and am not concerned by that at all.  When I was younger more than half my friends supported Scottish independence passionately.  Then we grew up and now I could count on one hand the number who do and even they are scunnered by the whole thing.  Even my wife, when I met her, was pro Indy and now she ardently supports the union.   

 

The reason it changed is that way back when we had no responsibility or commitments.  Then we got mortgages, jobs, pensions became a thing, our children’s future wellbeing become paramount and suddenly the ‘it’ll be alright on the night, sunlit uplands of Indy’ didn’t look so appealing.   Youngsters love a protest vote; a stick it to the man cause, always have and always will and as they grow up it fades, that’s life and maybe not for all but most.

 

Until Scottish independence can be explained to people in a meaningful way that people can use to objectively determine whether it’s a positive or negative you will never get over the 50% mark.  Scotland is an ageing population, young people’s fervour subsides and they also vote in less numbers than the elderly.  The union is a safe as it’s been in years and to think otherwise is just delusion.  

 

 

Very good posting. Good points re responsbility and committments re the young and how this  changes the older  they get. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, AyrJambo said:

 

There has never been any respect and it has never been a partnership of equals

Possibly not a partnership of equals but it's not quite the colonial oppression that some would have us believe. 

I do think that there was a decent level of respect between the two parliaments at the outset of devolution but that eroded when the Little Englanders of the ERG took over at Westminster. One of the biggest mistakes made in Holyrood was to get sucked into  grievance politics and playing right into the hands of Truss, Mordaunt, Jack and the Daily Mail acolytes. 

[il Duce McTarkin]

17 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Yes, respect does work both ways. And that means that Westminster respects the rights of Scottish politicians of whatever colour having a view on humanitarian crisis and other international issues of interest to Scotland and its people. Similarly, Westminster should respect the need and right for Holyrood to promote Scottish interests abroad given the opportunities for trade and investment  and specifically in the case of COP promoting our renewables industry.

I'd prefer politicians on both sides of the border to work together in the national interests of both Scotland and the UK. I get dismayed and impatient when supporters of either can only point the finger in one direction. It just encourages and excuses the pointless whataboutery of the chancers in charge.

 

23 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I’m a unionist and am not concerned by that at all.  When I was younger more than half my friends supported Scottish independence passionately.  Then we grew up and now I could count on one hand the number who do and even they are scunnered by the whole thing.  Even my wife, when I met her, was pro Indy and now she ardently supports the union.   

 

The reason it changed is that way back when we had no responsibility or commitments.  Then we got mortgages, jobs, pensions became a thing, our children’s future wellbeing become paramount and suddenly the ‘it’ll be alright on the night, sunlit uplands of Indy’ didn’t look so appealing.   Youngsters love a protest vote; a stick it to the man cause, always have and always will and as they grow up it fades, that’s life and maybe not for all but most.

 

Until Scottish independence can be explained to people in a meaningful way that people can use to objectively determine whether it’s a positive or negative you will never get over the 50% mark.  Scotland is an ageing population, young people’s fervour subsides and they also vote in less numbers than the elderly.  The union is a safe as it’s been in years and to think otherwise is just delusion.  

 

 

 

Two excellent posts.

[manaliveits105]

Just waiting on another "Daily Mail" for todays jackpot 

 

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Just waiting on another "Daily Mail" for todays jackpot 

 

 

Will Daily Heil do you?

[hughesie27]

43 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I’m a unionist and am not concerned by that at all.  When I was younger more than half my friends supported Scottish independence passionately.  Then we grew up and now I could count on one hand the number who do and even they are scunnered by the whole thing.  Even my wife, when I met her, was pro Indy and now she ardently supports the union.   

 

The reason it changed is that way back when we had no responsibility or commitments.  Then we got mortgages, jobs, pensions became a thing, our children’s future wellbeing become paramount and suddenly the ‘it’ll be alright on the night, sunlit uplands of Indy’ didn’t look so appealing.   Youngsters love a protest vote; a stick it to the man cause, always have and always will and as they grow up it fades, that’s life and maybe not for all but most.

 

Until Scottish independence can be explained to people in a meaningful way that people can use to objectively determine whether it’s a positive or negative you will never get over the 50% mark.  Scotland is an ageing population, young people’s fervour subsides and they also vote in less numbers than the elderly.  The union is a safe as it’s been in years and to think otherwise is just delusion.  

 

 

The Union doing wonders for Young People of Britain. 

[Gizmo]

29 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Just like the stuff spouted by those wishy-washy Brexit naysayers, aye?

 

🥱 
 

[JudyJudyJudy]

29 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Holyrood was to get sucked into  grievance politics and playing right into the hands of Truss, Mordaunt, Jack and the Daily Mail acolytes. 

they got stuck in allright and lost it. Lost it with GRA , Hate crime nonsense and also various other idenity politic issues. Guess why? The majority of people do not give a flying **** about these issues. They do about the real issues like the economy , homelessness crisis etc. The so called  "cultural wars" have been the death of the SNP in the last few years. 

[manaliveits105]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

they got stuck in allright and lost it. Lost it with GRA , Hate crime nonsense and also various other idenity politic issues. Guess why? The majority of people do not give a flying **** about these issues. They do about the real issues like the economy , homelessness crisis etc. The so called  "cultural wars" have been the death of the SNP in the last few years. 

Indeed thankfully 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

The Union doing wonders for Young People of Britain. 

 

6 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Just waiting on another "Daily Mail" for todays jackpot 

 

You know that poster keeps going on about trying to be " respectful " in debates etc then spoils it as usual by reference to the daily mail etc.  Its pretty tragic , abrasive stuff.

[hughesie27]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

You know that poster keeps going on about trying to be " respectful " in debates etc then spoils it as usual by reference to the daily mail etc.  Its pretty tragic , abrasive stuff.

Not sure why my post has been quoted?

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, manaliveits105 said:

Indeed thankfully 

Aye they fell hook , line and sinker for it and thought they were on the " right side of history " with their gender views, hate laws, restrictions on freedom of expression and speech  etc. The general public werent having any of this. 

[il Duce McTarkin]

7 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

🥱 
 

 

Which sums up the regurgitated, unimaginative, hyperbolic balderdash that characterises the vast majority of this thread.

[Thunder and Lightning]

20 hours ago, OTT said:

 

I'm talking about the figures around the polling. 

 

Polls are weighted so as to provide an accurate sample which reflects the make up of Scottish society. E.g. if 10% of Scots are 18-25 then 10% of those polled will be 18-25. However, Scotland has an aging population which means basically that when the polls are weighted, older people make up a higher proportion of the sample size to accurately reflect Scotland. 

 

This means that despite Yes dominating amongst the youth into early middle ages, the No camp have the edge essentially because pensioners back the union in their droves. That isn't a sustainable position because there isn't a long term to their vote. 

 

If I was a rabid Unionist, I'd be pretty concerned that only about 1 in 5 folk under 25 actually support the Union. It suggests to me that rather than bitterness sustaining our campaign for an Independent nation, we actually have hope and optimism behind us. The status quo offers none of that because there is no optimism around the Union. We're not on a path to anything within the UK. Just more of the same austerity and decling living standards in a broken brexit britain. 

How much hope does a loaf of bread cost? Is milk paid for with optimism? 

[il Duce McTarkin]

24 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

26 Weeks a Colon

 

 

[Gundermann]

3 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Then use that as their manifesto, It will be a vat of Human excrement but it will be independent human excrement.

 

Forget the Hyperbole be honest, just answer the basic of questions?  and an itinerary?  Not you, the SNP

We will create a Central Bank

We will strive to meet the qualifications of the EU membership.

We will get support from the EU before a vote

We will Join the Euro-zone

We will support the SHS (our NHS) by doing this...

We will create our own SRC (HMRC) by doing this at east Kilbride

We will create out own Passport office by buying support from the UK in Glasgow by doing this;

We will build and pay for a  Swansea in Perth or somewhere for Driving Licences by doing this:

We Will get at least one working Ferry.

We will work with the UK on a joint Ministry of Defence (or go it alone) by doing this:

We will put in renewal energies but lets be realistic we might need a Nuclear Power station (which is actually green)

We will self finance a national TV network, by buying back SBC rather than BBC, but a licence centre will need built in Greenock or Somewhere.

We willl accept national debt our share, and we will raise borrowing mechanism from the Global Bank,

We will tax the workers 30p in the £ to pay for it

We will still create a welfare state to keep the bone idol in luxury and pay for it by selling off palaces (this is selling off the family silver)

We will return to having the envy of the world our Education system (the one the SNP has trashed)

We will continue to have free university places by doing this:

We will have free prescriptions still.

 

Only thing is there will not be a SHS or any universities left open, and we also need stupid things like an MI5, Policing and Prisons, a Justice system, a policy on immigration, etc etc,

 

For good or bad, just make sure these will still be in place and evidence why, some thing we will get wrong sure, but it is how you learn and correct it that is how things should work

 

 

 

What a salad that is. And a lot of froth with it.

 

We have the mechanisms we need, we just don't control them. We should.

 

Btw, ferries are not the killer blow Unionists think it is. Not only from the state that closed almost all the shipyards but gave us the Brexit ferry from a company with no boats. I believe the Channel Islands have had similar difficulties to us recently as well.

[henryheart]

3 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I’m a unionist and am not concerned by that at all.  When I was younger more than half my friends supported Scottish independence passionately.  Then we grew up and now I could count on one hand the number who do and even they are scunnered by the whole thing.  Even my wife, when I met her, was pro Indy and now she ardently supports the union.   

 

The reason it changed is that way back when we had no responsibility or commitments.  Then we got mortgages, jobs, pensions became a thing, our children’s future wellbeing become paramount and suddenly the ‘it’ll be alright on the night, sunlit uplands of Indy’ didn’t look so appealing.   Youngsters love a protest vote; a stick it to the man cause, always have and always will and as they grow up it fades, that’s life and maybe not for all but most.

 

Until Scottish independence can be explained to people in a meaningful way that people can use to objectively determine whether it’s a positive or negative you will never get over the 50% mark.  Scotland is an ageing population, young people’s fervour subsides and they also vote in less numbers than the elderly.  The union is a safe as it’s been in years and to think otherwise is just delusion.  

 

 

 

100% agree. 

[Ked]

4 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Then use that as their manifesto, It will be a vat of Human excrement but it will be independent human excrement.

 

Forget the Hyperbole be honest, just answer the basic of questions?  and an itinerary?  Not you, the SNP

We will create a Central Bank

We will strive to meet the qualifications of the EU membership.

We will get support from the EU before a vote

We will Join the Euro-zone

We will support the SHS (our NHS) by doing this...

We will create our own SRC (HMRC) by doing this at east Kilbride

We will create out own Passport office by buying support from the UK in Glasgow by doing this;

We will build and pay for a  Swansea in Perth or somewhere for Driving Licences by doing this:

We Will get at least one working Ferry.

We will work with the UK on a joint Ministry of Defence (or go it alone) by doing this:

We will put in renewal energies but lets be realistic we might need a Nuclear Power station (which is actually green)

We will self finance a national TV network, by buying back SBC rather than BBC, but a licence centre will need built in Greenock or Somewhere.

We willl accept national debt our share, and we will raise borrowing mechanism from the Global Bank,

We will tax the workers 30p in the £ to pay for it

We will still create a welfare state to keep the bone idol in luxury and pay for it by selling off palaces (this is selling off the family silver)

We will return to having the envy of the world our Education system (the one the SNP has trashed)

We will continue to have free university places by doing this:

We will have free prescriptions still.

 

Only thing is there will not be a SHS or any universities left open, and we also need stupid things like an MI5, Policing and Prisons, a Justice system, a policy on immigration, etc etc,

 

For good or bad, just make sure these will still be in place and evidence why, some thing we will get wrong sure, but it is how you learn and correct it that is how things should work

 

 

Do you actually need a central bank?

I think Scotland will already meet most requirements .

We don't need EU support but if we did it would be to rejoin only.

 

You then go on to list share of debt but not of assets .

I can list the asset worth of the UK versus its current debt.

Right now we don't make enough to cover it on a yearly basis.

Much like the Scotland you predict and most western democracies.

All every single example of infrastructure you gave we posses as a nation. 

We are also part of NATO .

We also posses a separate legal system.

We already print money.

I can't really see any of your points as problems. 

Only in a way that's shared by every other nation on earth.

[OTT]

2 minutes ago, Ked said:

Do you actually need a central bank?

I think Scotland will already meet most requirements .

We don't need EU support but if we did it would be to rejoin only.

 

You then go on to list share of debt but not of assets .

I can list the asset worth of the UK versus its current debt.

Right now we don't make enough to cover it on a yearly basis.

Much like the Scotland you predict and most western democracies.

All every single example of infrastructure you gave we posses as a nation. 

We are also part of NATO .

We also posses a separate legal system.

We already print money.

I can't really see any of your points as problems. 

Only in a way that's shared by every other nation on earth.

 

Oh no, Scotland is uniquely the only nation on earth which couldn't deal with these issues  

[Ked]

2 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Oh no, Scotland is uniquely the only nation on earth which couldn't deal with these issues  

With no infrastructure or competency apparently and no idea how to run such things even if they were lucky enough to posses them.

 

Cut loose with a mountain of debt and obviously unable to run things properly .

Just look at the rest of the world's democracies compared to our lot.

Shining examples of honesty ,integrity and we are stuck with neo nazis .

 

It's all a bit wow from the Hagar

[BlueRiver]

Never fear the great John Swinney will lead you all to the sunlit uplands. 

 

 

[Hagar the Horrible]

42 minutes ago, Ked said:

Do you actually need a central bank?

I think Scotland will already meet most requirements .

We don't need EU support but if we did it would be to rejoin only.

 

You then go on to list share of debt but not of assets .

I can list the asset worth of the UK versus its current debt.

Right now we don't make enough to cover it on a yearly basis.

Much like the Scotland you predict and most western democracies.

All every single example of infrastructure you gave we posses as a nation. 

We are also part of NATO .

We also posses a separate legal system.

We already print money.

I can't really see any of your points as problems. 

Only in a way that's shared by every other nation on earth.

Yes we do it is on page 1. We could use the B of E, but they said naw. They are not so much problems as a massive cost and starting from scratch. But there are assets too and for balance I should have said.

[manaliveits105]

26 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

Never fear the great John Swinney will lead you all to the sunlit uplands. 

 

 

I'm gonna take a wild punt and say 

no he certainly is not 

[hughesie27]

The SNP will see a bounce back in the polls as a result of bringing Swinney into FM role.

[Spellczech]

5 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

It's OK.  You meant it shouldn't be done because you don't want it.  You don't need to keep explaining.

 

 

???? I said why I don't think we should have independence referenda every few years. You simply choose to read words that are not on the screen for some reason that I cannot comprehend...

 

Basically whenever you reply to me on here I read your post and think "what is he talking about?" and within those posts I read you trying to paraphrase what I've said and again I'm thinking "what is he talking about?". I don't recognise your attempts to re-state things I write...

 

It happens again and again and again...

 

I've come to the conclusion that you have problems interpreting written English. You see a phrase and jump on it and go off on a tangent somewhere that in your head perhaps is leading somewhere, but as a response is utterly, bizarrely incomprehensible...

Edited May 6 by Spellczech

[Spellczech]

5 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Yes, respect does work both ways. And that means that Westminster respects the rights of Scottish politicians of whatever colour having a view on humanitarian crisis and other international issues of interest to Scotland and its people. Similarly, Westminster should respect the need and right for Holyrood to promote Scottish interests abroad given the opportunities for trade and investment  and specifically in the case of COP promoting our renewables industry.

I'd prefer politicians on both sides of the border to work together in the national interests of both Scotland and the UK. I get dismayed and impatient when supporters of either can only point the finger in one direction. It just encourages and excuses the pointless whataboutery of the chancers in charge.

If you are saying almost all politicians are shoite, then I'm in agreement with you.

Edited May 6 by Spellczech

[Brighton Jambo]

1 hour ago, OTT said:

 

Oh no, Scotland is uniquely the only nation on earth which couldn't deal with these issues  

No one on here thinks Scotland couldn’t navigate these issues.

 

What those of us who live and work here would like to understand is what will be the impact of navigating these on all of us.

 

For example how does the immigration policy impact our border arrangements with England and the subsequent impact on travel and trade. 

 

Or

 

Are we planning to join the EU, if so under what arrangements and how do we intend to meet the already fully understood EU entry criteria, will it be though tax increase or public spending cuts . 

Or 

 

What currency will a newly independent Scotland use, what would this mean for our mortgages and pensions? 
 

Or

 

Are we joining NATO and if not/so what does that mean for defence spending and existing defence commitments?

 

I could go on and on.  Of course Scotland can navigate this but at what cost to people.  Until nationalists can answer at least the majority of those questions a majority will never ever vote for it.  
 

And frankly until they can, and they have had more than decade to do so, they are wasting our time and stringing their voters along simply to stay in power.

 

A rationale, intelligent, mature nation will NEVER vote for this level of uncertainty.  

[JamboGraham]

22 hours ago, OTT said:

There will be factors that drive their support for the Union.

 

Apologies for picking up on one single line in your overall post. I can only speak for myself but my no vote (that I cast in 2014) shouldn't be interpreted as support for the Union. I am completely indifferent to the notion of the Union.

 

Frustratingly every vote I have cast since 2014 has been interpreted by politicians, parties, commentators and others to a level way beyond any reasonable interpretation of what that vote actually represents. By this I mean that my local council vote has zero reflection on my view of an independent Scotland. I simply vote for the individual who will best serve my local community. The colour of rosette is irrelevant, same at European elections when we had them and the UK generals.

 

The only election where the question of an independent Scotland comes into my thinking is Holyrood simply because the players involved (both for and against) make it almost impossible not to bring this, at least, partly into the decision making process at the ballot box.

 

Alongside this not once since 2014 have I been asked via a ballot or via a poll my current preference on Scottish independence and I certainly don't believe I have ever been asked to vote if I support the union but that certainly hasn't stopped both sides making sweeping and unfounded assessments of the votes I have cast over the years.

 

The genuine reality is that my vote is there to be 'won' by both sides of the debate. I have voted for every major party in Scotland and several independents. However, in my experience the votes I have cast and the overall results of those elections have only ever had a minimal impact on the day to day reality of my life. Conversely the impact of global events 9/11, 2008 global financial crisis, the pandemic, war in Ukraine, decisions by OPEC, etc. have all had a far greater, far more immediate and far more tangible impact on my daily life than any vote I have cast. To my surprise that actually includes Brexit where little has changed in the daily rhythm of my life, despite my serious concerns that it would.

 

So back on topic. I had genuine wonder in 97 that 'things could only get better' and had hope that the new Scottish parliament would bring tangible benefits to all of us living here, I allowed myself to get even more hopeful under the first SNP administration when there genuinely seemed to be some movement toward that but of course that momentum tailed off and became bogged down in the all too familiar drudge of party politics.

 

So I hope the many who feel passionate about the benefits of an independent Scotland will understand (I of course don't expect you to agree) when I fail to be convinced that changing a political structure will have any meaningful change on my day to day life. I am not yes, I am not no, I am just....meh!!!

 

There are of course flaws with the status quo but at least I understand these flaws. I have constructed my life in a way that insulates myself and my family against them. As it stands no view has landed the knockout punch with me. I genuinely hope that if we ever are to be asked the question again that someone can. Until then all I have are actual promises that I have voted on and a 100% rate of that promise failing to deliver (either fully or in part) be it locally, in Scotland and at UK level.

 

Anyway...not sure if this adds to the debate but as a long term lurker on this thread I thought some might resonate with these thoughts.

 

 

 

 

[Gizmo]

5 hours ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Which sums up the regurgitated, unimaginative, hyperbolic balderdash that characterises the vast majority of this thread.

 

I'd say your trite post does too, tbf.  

You know as well as anyone there is a difference between someone pointing out that Scotland would need a currency, to negotiate on NATO and that the EU position was difficult are fair points to discuss, but hyperbole tabloid-level garbage like NO NHS, NO PENSIONS, NO BENEFITS isn't. That's almost as bad as the boy who told us Scotland would have no protection from alien invasion if we left the UK.

Coming out with that in 2024 is bewildering to me and not worthy of debate. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

38 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

If you are saying almost all politicians are shoite, then I'm in agreement with you.

There might be somebody out there who isn't but they have managed to disguise it pretty well.  In fairness to them they are playing to an entrenched electorate that is susceptible to dubious, populist headlines that often bear little resemblance to reality