What does Greene actually own?

[fabienleclerq]

What does greene actually own? Stadium and training ground and.......

 

Whats to stop say Walter Smith starting his own team and applying for the empty space in the league, and leaving Greene with a stadium and no tenant? Do spartans and the like get a chance to bid for the vacant space or do Newco and Greene already own the spot in the league?

[Serge]

The SFL are in a good position here, and I hope they are up to handling the responsibility.

 

They could invite other applications and make NewHuns sweat a little bit more. However, I think it will be a rubber stamp job and the real danger is that they offer them a place in Div 1 as a direct replacement for Dundee.

[fabienleclerq]

The SFL are in a good position here, and I hope they are up to handling the responsibility.

 

They could invite other applications and make NewHuns sweat a little bit more. However, I think it will be a rubber stamp job and the real danger is that they offer them a place in Div 1 as a direct replacement for Dundee.

Who makes that decision? Do all sfl members get a vote or does it go to a board? It would be good for the teams in Div 2 and 3 to get the income from two Newco visits.

[Serge]

Who makes that decision? Do all sfl members get a vote or does it go to a board? It would be good for the teams in Div 2 and 3 to get the income from two Newco visits.

Hopefully the SFL's constitution means that it's impossible to happen. You just never know with football administrators though!

[SUTOL]

Green owns or thinks he owns the assets such as Ibrox and Murray Park.

There is debate about the players as some people say their contracts default to the SFA in event of liquidation, others say they continue with the Newco through TUPE regulations, but they are free to leave if they want. So they are either free agents or they are on their previous contracts (but can leave for relatively small fees as per the agreement they reached with D&F) All other staff will have their contracts transfered across to the Newco under TUPE legislation.

 

The Newco claim on their financial advisors/backers website that they have Applied to register with the SFA and SPL, so they themselves seem pretty clear that this is a completely new company that is not inheriting old Rangers FC share or place in the SPL or SFA structure.

 

You then have to clarify what is required to be a member of the SPL, first thing is you have to be a member of the SFA.

SFA mebership is graded through various license grades. The very basic entry level requires providing accounts for the previous year and the two years before that, so three years accounts.

 

I don't see anywhere in the rules or articles of the SFA that says that first minimum criteria can be over-ruled for special cases or any other qualification that might allow a short-cut at this stage.

 

So just going by those bare facts, it looks to me like Green owns a football stadium and training ground, lots of backroom and support staff but maybe no proffesional players and has no League or Association membership and has at least three years operating as an ammatuer/junior club before he can apply for membership.

 

Aftyer they are become members of the SFA they would have the opportunity to apply for any place that beomes available in the league structure.

If one does.

 

 

I think I've got that right but happy to be corrected.

[jambostuart]

Green owns or thinks he owns the assets such as Ibrox and Murray Park.

There is debate about the players as some people say their contracts default to the SFA in event of liquidation, others say they continue with the Newco through TUPE regulations, but they are free to leave if they want. So they are either free agents or they are on their previous contracts (but can leave for relatively small fees as per the agreement they reached with D&F) All other staff will have their contracts transfered across to the Newco under TUPE legislation.

 

The Newco claim on their financial advisors/backers website that they have Applied to register with the SFA and SPL, so they themselves seem pretty clear that this is a completely new company that is not inheriting old Rangers FC share or place in the SPL or SFA structure.

 

You then have to clarify what is required to be a member of the SPL, first thing is you have to be a member of the SFA.

SFA mebership is graded through various license grades. The very basic entry level requires providing accounts for the previous year and the two years before that, so three years accounts.

 

I don't see anywhere in the rules or articles of the SFA that says that first minimum criteria can be over-ruled for special cases or any other qualification that might allow a short-cut at this stage.

 

So just going by those bare facts, it looks to me like Green owns a football stadium and training ground, lots of backroom and support staff but maybe no proffesional players and has no League or Association membership and has at least three years operating as an ammatuer/junior club before he can apply for membership.

 

Aftyer they are become members of the SFA they would have the opportunity to apply for any place that beomes available in the league structure.

If one does.

 

 

I think I've got that right but happy to be corrected.

 

As much as I would love this to be the case, and as much as I'm sure you're right on the rules regarding this, I don't the SPL would be asking clubs to vote on allowing a newco back in to the SPL if they weren't going to be given special disepensation and allowed to become a member of the SFA.

 

The OP raises an interesting question in what Green actually owns though, especially in terms of Ibrox which has to be worth a fair bit and the question I've had in my head is why didn't HMRC just take posession of Ibrox before it was sold and Rangers were liquidated? Surely they could have made more doing that than allowing Rangers to liquidate, therefor not seeing nearly as much return as they could have? And what's to stop Walter Smith from making his own "The New Rangers" and applying for membership, just to muddy the waters further?

[Horatio Caine]

As much as I would love this to be the case, and as much as I'm sure you're right on the rules regarding this, I don't the SPL would be asking clubs to vote on allowing a newco back in to the SPL if they weren't going to be given special disepensation and allowed to become a member of the SFA.

 

The OP raises an interesting question in what Green actually owns though, especially in terms of Ibrox which has to be worth a fair bit and the question I've had in my head is why didn't HMRC just take posession of Ibrox before it was sold and Rangers were liquidated? Surely they could have made more doing that than allowing Rangers to liquidate, therefor not seeing nearly as much return as they could have? And what's to stop Walter Smith from making his own "The New Rangers" and applying for membership, just to muddy the waters further?

 

But surely in order to apply for membership you'd have to show you had a stadium that met the requirements.

 

Wattie would not have that.

[jambostuart]

But surely in order to apply for membership you'd have to show you had a stadium that met the requirements.

 

Wattie would not have that.

 

In a hypothetical situation where Walter Smith was to put together a new Rangers, I'm sure the money he would have used for buying up Green's Rangers could be put in to a stadium that fills the SFL's requirements.

[Horatio Caine]

In a hypothetical situation where Walter Smith was to put together a new Rangers, I'm sure the money he would have used for buying up Green's Rangers could be put in to a stadium that fills the SFL's requirements.

 

Not before August he couldn't!

[Diadora Van Basten]

Does anyone know if Livingston is a precedent?

 

If Livingston formed a new co and retained their league status then so should Rangers.

 

If this was not the case then Rangers should have to reapply for the vacant position and should other teams wish to apply they should be allowed to do so.

[SUTOL]

As much as I would love this to be the case, and as much as I'm sure you're right on the rules regarding this, I don't the SPL would be asking clubs to vote on allowing a newco back in to the SPL if they weren't going to be given special disepensation and allowed to become a member of the SFA.

 

I supose it depends on what the actual question is that the vote is for.

 

My understanding is that it is to allow the transfer of the Rangers plc share to a New Company.

The board would previously had the vote on such matters, but the rules were changed so that all the clubs would vote on those matters now.

 

On the face of it, as I said, it should be a straight forward No vote, as the company applying for the share don't meet the most basic qualification to join the SPL.

The vote still has to be taken since and application has been made.

 

 

The OP raises an interesting question in what Green actually owns though, especially in terms of Ibrox which has to be worth a fair bit and the question I've had in my head is why didn't HMRC just take posession of Ibrox before it was sold and Rangers were liquidated? Surely they could have made more doing that than allowing Rangers to liquidate, therefor not seeing nearly as much return as they could have?

 

Because they aren't in the property business. How much time/money/manpower to HMRC have to start taking over properties all over the country?

[fabienleclerq]

 

 

 

 

Because they aren't in the property business. How much time/money/manpower to HMRC have to start taking over properties all over the country?

I read them not taking ibrox and murray park as thy aren't worth that much.I dont think Murray park can be built on and Property in Govan can't be that sought after.I also assumed taking these as part payment would effect how they chase Murray and whyte.

[cosanostra]

The SFL are in a good position here, and I hope they are up to handling the responsibility.

 

They could invite other applications and make NewHuns sweat a little bit more. However, I think it will be a rubber stamp job and the real danger is that they offer them a place in Div 1 as a direct replacement for Dundee.

 

Good post. I think this is the likely scenario.

I can see them allowing Rangers to land in division 1 which is horrible unfair but it's one half of the establishment we're talking about here so it's maybe inevitable.

[Paolo]

I am not convinced the SFL can parachute them into Division One. Why should they get this benefit, but clubs who go through the application process and fight their way through the leagues do not?

[belly]

What happens to their historical achievments? Am I right in thinking that the newco has no History or is it transfered from the oldco?

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Green owns or thinks he owns the assets such as Ibrox and Murray Park.

There is debate about the players as some people say their contracts default to the SFA in event of liquidation, others say they continue with the Newco through TUPE regulations, but they are free to leave if they want. So they are either free agents or they are on their previous contracts (but can leave for relatively small fees as per the agreement they reached with D&F) All other staff will have their contracts transfered across to the Newco under TUPE legislation.

 

The Newco claim on their financial advisors/backers website that they have Applied to register with the SFA and SPL, so they themselves seem pretty clear that this is a completely new company that is not inheriting old Rangers FC share or place in the SPL or SFA structure.

 

You then have to clarify what is required to be a member of the SPL, first thing is you have to be a member of the SFA.

SFA mebership is graded through various license grades. The very basic entry level requires providing accounts for the previous year and the two years before that, so three years accounts.

 

I don't see anywhere in the rules or articles of the SFA that says that first minimum criteria can be over-ruled for special cases or any other qualification that might allow a short-cut at this stage.

 

So just going by those bare facts, it looks to me like Green owns a football stadium and training ground, lots of backroom and support staff but maybe no proffesional players and has no League or Association membership and has at least three years operating as an ammatuer/junior club before he can apply for membership.

 

Aftyer they are become members of the SFA they would have the opportunity to apply for any place that beomes available in the league structure.

If one does.

 

 

I think I've got that right but happy to be corrected.

 

You have got it, it is bewildering to me that the media cannot grasp these facts.

 

Rangers Football Club is dead, Green does not own a football Club, he is trying to start up a football club and he will have to start at the very bottom, clubs like Sprtans have a better case to join the SFL than SEVCO5088 who have never even played a game of football.

 

There has been enough rule breaking already without the SFA and SFL breaking their own rules to admit this new company that has no history and no certainty of existence.

[Stanley_]

Does anyone know if Livingston is a precedent?

 

If Livingston formed a new co and retained their league status then so should Rangers.

 

If this was not the case then Rangers should have to reapply for the vacant position and should other teams wish to apply they should be allowed to do so.

 

I don't know what happened with Livingston but I doubt it was a newco. I thought they just went into administration again. As far as I'm aware, they were never liquidated though they came close.

 

The precedent was set with Airdrieonians who went out of business and had to re-apply (as a new club-Airdrie United) to the leagues and were rejected in favour of Gretna (and subsequently took over Clydebank).

[Toxteth O'Grady]

I don't know what happened with Livingston but I doubt it was a newco. I thought they just went into administration again. As far as I'm aware, they were never liquidated though they came close.

 

The precedent was set with Airdrieonians who went out of business and had to re-apply (as a new club-Airdrie United) to the leagues and were rejected in favour of Gretna (and subsequently took over Clydebank).

 

Correct, as far as the rules go the quickest way for SEVCO5088 to play Scottish football would be to buy an existing club.

[Stanley_]

Interesting article from when Gretna beat Airdrie United in the vote to get into the SFL: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2002/jun/18/newsstory.sport3

 

I wonder if the same principles will apply this time.

 

But the 27 SFL chairmen eligible to vote turned down the obvious financial benefits to instead welcome Gretna back to Scottish football for the first time since 1947.

 

But the chairmen decided that to allow Airdrie United to emerge from the blackened ashes of Airdrieonians would be setting a dangerous precedent that might see cash-strapped football clubs disappear only to reappear under a different guise.

 

Donald said: "I think the potential precedent that may have been set may have been a major factor.

 

"There was certainly concern about that and I think it was certainly one element that went towards it."

[Saint Jambo]

Whats to stop say Walter Smith starting his own team and applying for the empty space in the league, and leaving Greene with a stadium and no tenant? Do spartans and the like get a chance to bid for the vacant space or do Newco and Greene already own the spot in the league?

Greene doesn't already own the spot in the league. The SPL vote is to decide whether the oldco share in the SPL (effectively) the spot in the league is transferred. That seems unlikely now. Assuming instead that the share is transferred to either Dundee or Dunfermline, this would free up a space in the SFL. The SFL would then have to agree the process by which they invite clubs/ new companies to apply and the criteria on which they will then make a decision. Whether Spartans, a Walter Smith newco and others can apply will depend entirely on the process and criteria put in place.

 

It would be good for the teams in Div 2 and 3 to get the income from two Newco visits.

From a financial point of view this is true, but not necessarily from a sporting point of view. If Rangers were given access to division 3 the rest of the teams would effectively being playing for a play-off place. If you are an ambitious club hoping for promotion then this is not great. Fans of several clubs in div 2 and 3 complained that Livi's demotion to Div 3 was a bad thing on this basis.

 

There is debate about the players as some people say their contracts default to the SFA in event of liquidation, others say they continue with the Newco through TUPE regulations, but they are free to leave if they want.

...

so they themselves seem pretty clear that this is a completely new company that is not inheriting old Rangers FC share or place in the SPL or SFA structure.

...

You then have to clarify what is required to be a member of the SPL, first thing is you have to be a member of the SFA. SFA mebership is graded through various license grades. The very basic entry level requires providing accounts for the previous year and the two years before that, so three years accounts. I don't see anywhere in the rules or articles of the SFA that says that first minimum criteria can be over-ruled for special cases or any other qualification that might allow a short-cut at this stage.

Interesting post.

- On contract transfers, minor point but it is player registrations not player contracts that might default to the SFA.

- Newco have applied to register with the SPL and have the share in the league transferred from oldco, so they are hoping that they will be allowed to 'inherit' oldco's place in the league.

- Interesting points about accounts. If this is the case I suspect the way out of this bind for the SFA and SFL is to have an EGM and ask the clubs to change the rules. Governing bodies and leagues are effectively private members clubs and they do have a large amount of flexibility to do what their members want.

 

The question I've had in my head is why didn't HMRC just take posession of Ibrox before it was sold and Rangers were liquidated? Surely they could have made more doing that than allowing Rangers to liquidate, therefor not seeing nearly as much return as they could have? And what's to stop Walter Smith from making his own "The New Rangers" and applying for membership, just to muddy the waters further?

Because tax debt isn't secured against a companies assets. Your mortgage is secured against your house so the bank can sieze it in the evnet of non-payment. This is not the case with tax. There was no legal way for HMRC to 'just take posession of Ibrox'. What is amazing is that it seems that it was legal for the Administrators to sign a binding deal with the company that had a CVA rejected. This doesn't seem to provide best value for the creditors or play any part is supporting the company to remain a going concern, but as no one has challenged it, I assume it must be legal.

 

But surely in order to apply for membership you'd have to show you had a stadium that met the requirements.

As above, depends on the criteria put in place, but no reason that a lease to ground share couldn't be a workable solution.

 

Does anyone know if Livingston is a precedent? If Livingston formed a new co and retained their league status then so should Rangers. If this was not the case then Rangers should have to reapply for the vacant position and should other teams wish to apply they should be allowed to do so.

Not sure why it would be ok for Livingston to be a precedent but not of for Rangers to be a precedent.

 

What happens to their historical achievments? Am I right in thinking that the newco has no History or is it transfered from the oldco?

History in terms of trophies isn't a tangible that can be covered by legal or even footballing rules. It is something that will basically be defined by what people agree to believe. Almost certainly Rangers fans will claim the new company maintains the history of the old company, whilst other fans will claim that it doesn't. It is an unwinnable argument, although if the SFA print official tables of tournaments won they will probably be seen by many as having the final say (except that fans will claim they are biased one way or the other).

 

 

My personal view is that it is best not to allow Scottish football clubs to die if there is a will to keep them going. If Rangers aren't allowed into the league, there is a real danger that they will go down the Airdrie Utd/ Clydebank route and another club will be unfairly killed. I'd be in favour of allowing them into the league in some form. What is a much more important question is whether the Green incarnation is a suitable form. He has already shown that he is supportive of English league football being played in Scotland. This seems so opposed to the interests of the SFA, SPL and SFL members that I see no reason they should let a new company controlled by him enter the league as phoneix Rangers.

[DETTY29]

I think in order of importance, Green needs to own

 

The 'order' book(i.e the fans)

the under 18 playes and Ibrox

[jambofaefife]

Just had a wee check on the Rates Assessor website, which is usually pretty accurate, the property rates are still under the soon to be defunct Rangers FC.

 

Does this mean Mr Green is avoiding paying property tax already, by delaying registering he is saving approx ?17k a week on Ibrox alone.

 

I think I should do the honorable thing and report this misdemeanor and report it to Glasgow Council, after all Hearts pay there taxes