Well, looks like we atre being fingered.......

[sinbad]

Spotted this on rangerstaxcase.com

 

Electronic Tims ?@ETimsNet

EXCLUSIVE ? We had it confirmed tonight one other pro club had players on dual contracts paid through owners private business. 100% true.

 

Electronic Tims ?@ETimsNet

Info from a player who played for the club concerned. Some players fell out with owner by refusing dual contract. Likely more clubs involved

 

Without wanting to give the game away, there?s only one chairman I can think of who regularly falls out with players and sticks his nose in team selection.

 

 

Discuss....

[scottish_chicP]

When you start believing anything on there you should just give up. Honestly.

[kingantti1874]

Let's discuss last Saturday Sinbad.. how many do you think hearts could have scored.. 7.. maybe 8 pity Sergio told them to take the foot off the gas.. discuss

[naeclue]

I think rangerstaxcase.com has been right a lot, and I think it's an excellent site.

 

I am not sure that this is us, all the same. He doesn't mention interfering with player selection at all, (think that is just original poster), only that players fell out as owner wanted them to take duplicate contracts and they refused.

 

I think Vlad registered players at Kaunus and then loaned them to Hearts most of the time. I think that this was a means of minimizing tax (in his mind at least), and that is perhaps at the bottom of the HMRC investigation into Hearts. It's speculation only.

 

I suppose anything is possible with Vlad, and given Campbell Ogilvie was at Rangers at the height of their alleged dual contractness, maybe that is a common link?

 

Very interesting. The players falling out at Hearts fairly obviously fell out over footballing matters, or refusing to re-sign/be transferred.

 

I'm curious about HMRC pursuit of Hearts. If they demand 10 million quid, does Vlad have to just walk away?

[Tiberius Stinkfinger]

I feel like Freddy !

 

[Bert Le Clos]

Celtic fans sticking the boot in Rangers fans - SHOCK.

 

Celtic fans sticking the boot in the club they despise slightly less then Rangers - SHOCK.

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Ok, step back for a second.

 

WHY would we register players with two different clubs in the same pyramid? What benefit would we gain by doing so?

 

I think the OP needs to think through things a little first.

[sinbad]

Only passing on what I read.

There is a running thread on there about revelations that will be the end game for der huns and others. I think Ogilvie brought a wee bit ebt to tynie when he arrived. Difference is we are in discussions with hector. It's the dual contract that could **** us if true.

I'll get my tin hat on and bugger off back to question of sport.

 

Oh, and why did we take our foot off the gas on the 19th?

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Marius Niculae? Wasn't there some kind of weird arrangement with him at Caley? Can't remember what that was all about though.

[Bert Le Clos]

Imagine the other club was actually Celtic

 

[teepee]

Imagine the other club was actually Celtic

 

 

 

given the level of wages that celtic pay compared to the rest of us, there is more chance of it being them than not, might also explain why liewell has hardly said a peep since the EBT's first surfaced...probably just wishful thinking on my part but it would be more ironic than rain on my wedding day

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Imagine the other club was actually Celtic

 

 

Can't see Celtic fans crowing about their own team cheating though.

[wibble]

Thats not from Rangerstaxcase. Thats maybe from the comments on RTC and its a cut n paste from ETims. Not quite so credible a source.

[Floyd]

given the level of wages that celtic pay compared to the rest of us, there is more chance of it being them than not, might also explain why liewell has hardly said a peep since the EBT's first surfaced...probably just wishful thinking on my part but it would be more ironic than rain on my wedding day

 

Or a free ride when you already paid..........

[Bert Le Clos]

Can't see Celtic fans crowing about their own team cheating though.

 

The player could be Beattie

[sinbad]

Sorry, yup, should have been clearer, from the comments on that blog.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Only passing on what I read.

There is a running thread on there about revelations that will be the end game for der huns and others. I think Ogilvie brought a wee bit ebt to tynie when he arrived. Difference is we are in discussions with hector. It's the dual contract that could **** us if true.

I'll get my tin hat on and bugger off back to question of sport.

 

Oh, and why did we take our foot off the gas on the 19th?

 

 

HMFC never had an EBT scheme.

 

The tax issue at HMFC is to do with the Kaunas loanees receiving bugger all in wages here and being paid through Lithuania despite never playing there.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Thats not from Rangerstaxcase. Thats maybe from the comments on RTC and its a cut n paste from ETims. Not quite so credible a source.

 

Is Etims just a Celtic forum like Kerrydale ST? If so, why would a former Hearts player hand them evidence of duel contracts? That would be like someone handing a witness report about Fat Gaz and his ferarri to JKB. What would be the point?

 

In light of what you point out in your post, I am taking this 'revelation' with a huge pinch of salt.

[CJGJ]

Get facts straight before engaging speculation brain people.

 

Ebt's as thay have become known were finished by 2011 however had efectively closed in 2009 when HMRC's view on such was published.

 

The time window for us was approx 3 years max

 

The levels we are talking about are very low and as prev mentioned Vlad managed many of the deals via Lithuania/Kaunus and players were loaned to us rather than bought and paid directly by us -- the Ebt does not apply to those players as they were not contracted to us but simply loaned.

 

Really just idle speculation fueled by the modern media who publish whether there are facts or not to back it up.

[Tasavallan]

HMFC never had an EBT scheme.

 

The tax issue at HMFC is to do with the Kaunas loanees receiving bugger all in wages here and being paid through Lithuania despite never playing there.

However as long as paying Lithuanian tax then should not an issue for HMRC. EU rules are that migrant workers from one EU country working in another EU country can pay tax either in country of residence or country of domicile. I worked in the Netherlands for 5 years but paid UK tax - I had to show the Dutch tax authority proof of payment but they were happy.

[Martin_T]

Said it on the other thread but it has been suggested that Motherwell were up to this kind of thing prior to administration.

 

In any event, unless 'etims' have more than word of mouth evidence, the issue is a dead rubber.

[Groot]

Was it not mentioned over the weekend that Juninho had one at Celtic, it was said that they had settled the issue with HMRC but not related to any issue with dual contracts

 

No other team in the SPL had EBTs (as reported at the weekend)

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Was it not mentioned over the weekend that Juninho had one at Celtic, it was said that they had settled the issue with HMRC but not related to any issue with dual contracts

 

No other team in the SPL had EBTs (as reported at the weekend)

 

I think the suggestion is secret dual contracts rather than EBTs.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

However as long as paying Lithuanian tax then should not an issue for HMRC. EU rules are that migrant workers from one EU country working in another EU country can pay tax either in country of residence or country of domicile. I worked in the Netherlands for 5 years but paid UK tax - I had to show the Dutch tax authority proof of payment but they were happy.

Correct. Now what the exact issue is that HMRC have raised in this light, I am not sure but they think we have a case to answer and the club obviously disagree.

[southside1874]

Panilla had a strange contract. Some of his wages paid to some consortium and the rest paid to him. If memory serves me right. Not sure if that constitutes a dual contract though. Gretna seems more than likely to have been the club with dodgy contracts though.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Panilla had a strange contract. Some of his wages paid to some consortium and the rest paid to him. If memory serves me right. Not sure if that constitutes a dual contract though. Gretna seems more than likely to have been the club with dodgy contracts though.

 

Panilla was part owned by Kaunas and part Sporting Lisbon and loaned to us.

[david mcgee]

Campbell Ogilvie.

 

What does anyone know about this man?

 

The only thing i know is he is one of the best, if not thee best, administrators in Scottish football. ( or so the succulent lamb brigade tell us)

 

I have no reason to doubt this as the SFA think he is worthy of making the draw for the Scottish cup semi final and presenting the winners medals.

 

He may well be whiter than Whyte, and as he was our administrator i sure as hell hope he is.

 

If he was found out to be a total schiester, with full knowledge of EBTs and encouraging other clubs to adopt these practices, it would shock the nation.

 

No wait a minute, ive underplayed what it would mean.

 

It would mean the whole of Scottish football was corrupt, including the governing body.

 

But thats impossible, aint it Chick, Mr Traynor et al.

[269miles]

There are people on RTC who are equating Campbell Ogilvie presence and use of EBT at Rangers with the same at Hearts.

In fact someone said he 'implemented' EBTs at Hearts. This overlooks the fact CO is a football administrator and not a taxation specialist. It also over looks the fact SDM brought in Pornstar Paul (or whatever his name was) via MIM and charged RFC for the pleasure of getting shafted . I don't see how/why someone could conflate CO and EBT at RFC = CO and EBT at HMFC .....but it is happening.

 

It's also being claimed the SPL "KNOW" that Hearts were using EBTs. If that's the case , you'd think HMRC would have had found out a lot earlier.

 

Time will tell I s'pose.

[ToadKiller Dog]

If hearts had done anything wrong the weegia would not have kept silent over the last 7 years , somebody would have told them . mischief making is my opinion of these allegations . Seriously if we had been using double contracts it was aimless as clearly it didn't stop our debt hitting almost 40m at one point ..

Certainly something is going on with us and the tax man don't think it's double contracts as it doesn't make sense .

[southside1874]

If hearts had done anything wrong the weegia would not have kept silent over the last 7 years , somebody would have told them . mischief making is my opinion of these allegations . Seriously if we had been using double contracts it was aimless as clearly it didn't stop our debt hitting almost 40m at one point ..

Certainly something is going on with us and the tax man don't think it's double contracts as it doesn't make sense .

A bunch of hobonomics again. Hearts have been dragged through the coals by the taxman recently so all is out in the open

[Peebo]

HMFC never had an EBT scheme.

 

The tax issue at HMFC is to do with the Kaunas loanees receiving bugger all in wages here and being paid through Lithuania despite never playing there.

 

I recall an article (or whatever you call them) about this on that rangers tax blog years ago, insinuating that Hearts were up to no good in this regard. When I pointed out that what Hearts were doing was transparent, and that I myself was employed under a similar arrangement (albeit not involving Lithuania...or football...), the bloggerist had no response as to why Hearts might be doing anything that was actually illegal.

[naeclue]

If hearts had done anything wrong the weegia would not have kept silent over the last 7 years , somebody would have told them . mischief making is my opinion of these allegations . Seriously if we had been using double contracts it was aimless as clearly it didn't stop our debt hitting almost 40m at one point ..

Certainly something is going on with us and the tax man don't think it's double contracts as it doesn't make sense .

 

I think that media wouldn't raise the issue for fear that it would hurt their beloved Rangers, but all the same I don't see this as being us. But who knows?

 

Incidentally Juninho was paid via EBT, Celtic say they paid all tax after instruction from HMRC, but the dual contract issue may apply there too.

 

It's a long summer, good that we have something to keep us busy, eh?

[The Gasman]

Was it not mentioned over the weekend that Juninho had one at Celtic, it was said that they had settled the issue with HMRC but not related to any issue with dual contracts

 

No other team in the SPL had EBTs (as reported at the weekend)

 

Correct..!

 

It would amuse me, a lot, if Celtic actually get punished as a result of being "outed" by Etims...

[jb101]

Or a free ride when you already paid..........

Or good advice that you just didn't take

 

If there was a financial instrument available to one business why would it not be available to another?This EBT system was used to attract big name players to club(s)in Scotland who qualified regularily for European competition.

SDM's ultimate problem was that he was funding the EBT payments with money that he borrowed and failed to pay back running up massive debts across his entire business empire.

If you think back it is not difficult to remember names that at the time made you think WTF is he wasting his time in Scottish football for.The reasons are;

1, Crappy domestic contract

2, EBT scheme

3, Offshore side contract

Now the names I remember thinking WTF amongst others are Pierre van Hoiydonk,George Cadette,Paulo diCanio and Henrik Larson.

I think that the OF has been cheating Scottish football us and the Taxman/payer for decades.

[Rudi Hates Hibees]

Marius Niculae? Wasn't there some kind of weird arrangement with him at Caley? Can't remember what that was all about though.

 

Correct, if I remember right a director at Orion Group paid his wages.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Fedetovas admitted at the AGM we are being investigated by HMRC and it could be "bad for the club".

 

He didn't expand any further.

[Thunderstruck]

Another club on dual contracts will be manna from Heaven for SFA/SFA. They can claim that it could be widespread, offer an amnesty and thus remove the issue of what to have to do with Rangers.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Correct, if I remember right a director at Orion Group paid his wages.

 

Who are Orion?

[Clerry Jambo]

Fedetovas admitted at the AGM we are being investigated by HMRC and it could be "bad for the club".

 

He didn't expand any further.

 

Doesn't sound too clever DH, first I have seen this on the board, although may have missed it in other threads.

[I.J]

Shiting it.

[ToadKiller Dog]

Fedetovas admitted at the AGM we are being investigated by HMRC and it could be "bad for the club".

 

He didn't expand any further.

 

I thought he said he didn't know what the outcome would be at this time , but was looking for documentation to give to the HMRC so a resolution could try to be found .

In a same sort of debate

Others said that there might be a tax bill of 1to 2 million that the tax man may be after though that's just talk on here

[The Gasman]

Doesn't sound too clever DH, first I have seen this on the board, although may have missed it in other threads.

 

It's not a new thing CJ, it's been mentioned in the last three sets of accounts, so has been going in over four years mate. It was posted on here at the time of this year's AGM that the amount in question was between ?1m and ?2m, and that Hearts were confident they could supply HMRC with the appropriate paperwork to demonstrate there should be no monies still to pay.

 

Those who seemed to be genuinely ITK about this (and there were several, all with broadly similar versions of events) seemed reasonably confident that even the worst case scenario for Hearts was not going to be a game changer, and certainly not fatal.

[Clerry Jambo]

It's not a new thing CJ, it's been mentioned in the last three sets of accounts, so has been going in over four years mate. It was posted on here at the time of this year's AGM that the amount in question was between ?1m and ?2m, and that Hearts were confident they could supply HMRC with the appropriate paperwork to demonstrate there should be no monies still to pay.

 

Those who seemed to be genuinely ITK about this (and there were several, all with broadly similar versions of events) seemed reasonably confident that even the worst case scenario for Hearts was not going to be a game changer, and certainly not fatal.

 

Cheers Gas, appreciate you taking time out from "The Rangers Thread" mate

[colinmaroon]

HMFC never had an EBT scheme.

 

The tax issue at HMFC is to do with the Kaunas loanees receiving bugger all in wages here and being paid through Lithuania despite never playing there.

 

 

Is that just your thoughts or are you, ra-ta-da - "In the Know"!

[Floyd]

Who are Orion?

 

Belt makers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Large asset management company I think, based in Inverness. One of the ICT directors essentially got cash from this group to pay the guys wages or something like that.

 

Caused a bit of upset in the ICT dressing room IIRC.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Belt makers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Large asset management company I think, based in Inverness. One of the ICT directors essentially got cash from this group to pay the guys wages or something like that.

 

Caused a bit of upset in the ICT dressing room IIRC.

 

That's right... I remember that his wages were being paid directly by a director at the time... This is the one that really stands out in my memory. If not that or something to do with the legality of our loaning system, then I have to agree about Dundee FC and the likes of Cannigia, Cabalero, Sanchez, Luna, Nemzadse, Kizinashvilli, Burley and Ravanelli... Mind that Stefano whassiface even tried to get Edgar Davids??

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Is that just your thoughts or are you, ra-ta-da - "In the Know"!

I don't claim to be "in the know" otherwise I'd be able to say on what grounds Hector is pursuing us.

 

However, I know enough to know the generality

[Glamorgan Jambo]

One of the reasons we should be a bit concerned about the assessment HMRC have made and we are appealling is that if our appeal isn't successful then the bill will then be due. I've heard the argument that because we've done all those debt for equity swaps these last few years then a tax bill of a few million should be straightforward. The difference though is that any tax bill is a cash payment as opposed to a balance sheet transfer (like DFE). We've struggled with cash payments in the last 12 months (wages, ongoing HMRC bills etc).

 

I'm not unduly concerned about this but then again no-one in the last 7 years has really learned much of significance about the state of play at UBIG. If everything's fine and dandy with them we'll be okay.

[Jamboinparis]

Who are Orion?

 

This is correct. I have family who work for Orion (oil engineering firm based in Inverness) and they mentioned this at the time. I remember he was linked to hearts at one stage (or at least we the fans fancied him) and I asked my family about him. He was on big wages were paid by director Alan Savage. Confirm by a quick google search.

 

Unsure of the legality of this...but I would assume that so long as tax was paid there isn't a problem with a director paying in money to his company which is only to be used in a specific way (paying the wage of top talent).

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

This is correct. I have family who work for Orion (oil engineering firm based in Inverness) and they mentioned this at the time. I remember he was linked to hearts at one stage (or at least we the fans fancied him) and I asked my family about him. He was on big wages were paid by director Alan Savage. Confirm by a quick google search.

 

Unsure of the legality of this...but I would assume that so long as tax was paid there isn't a problem with a director paying in money to his company which is only to be used in a specific way (paying the wage of top talent).

 

Cheers. Yeah it was just a situation that jumped out at me from memory. I doubt there is anything illegal in it either unless he or any of the other players discussed had two contracts.