Doubts over stadium

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

I have no idea, but you seem to be implying that you know.

 

So which banks don't want anything to do with the project?

Which banks have been approached?

 

I am implying nothing just asking the question, nor do I know anything, why, do YOU know something we don't know? Or are we not allowed to question anything? I realise the concept of democracy is new to our Overlord.

 

If a UK Bank/Financial institution had been approached and agreed to such a deal, all you would have heard was singing from the roof tops about "HMFC in partnership with XXBank" etc

 

Silence speaks volumes.

[Billy52]

I have no idea, but you seem to be implying that you know.

 

So which banks don't want anything to do with the project?

Which banks have been approached?

 

 

I can tell you that right now there is no chance of any British bank helping to fund this as they have now become 100% risk averse.

 

Most of the SPL were once financed by HBOS who were desperate to get out of football due to the risk. They even put a team they sponsored into receivership, Livingston remember?

 

In fact every football club with debt is now under threat as the banks will be quicker to call in overdrafts.

[walton1983]

I think that there is still a lingering idea that 'the money is owed to ourselves, so it is no problem' amongst some fans.

 

The other lingering idea is that the property development will 1) make enough money to gift Hearts the stand and 2) make enough money to make enough money to increase the cash available for players.

 

The interest payments alone on ?80m will be aroud ?5m. That's half our current turnover! Does anyone have the detailed plan on how this ever pays back.We should be building a football stand only.

[Coco]

The interest payments alone on ?80m will be aroud ?5m. That's half our current turnover! Does anyone have the detailed plan on how this ever pays back.We should be building a football stand only.

 

I presume that the idea is that the hotel is either licenced out or run themselves. That the office will be rented out, the club shop bring in revenue, the restaurants bring in hospitality money, flats sold and more bottoms on seats on Saturdays.

 

There look likely to be huge problems in property development in Edinburgh in the next couple of years. Of course all of the other speculative real estate developments across Edinburgh have one thing in common, and one thing different from the Hearts one. They don't have to bear the cost of building a football ground.

[SUTOL]

no UK bank would touch such a deal.

 

I am implying nothing/ /are we not allowed to question anything?

 

Where do you get your information that no UK bank would touch such a deal, and what is the deal they wont touch?

 

You mean you don't know and just made that statement up!

 

I don't know if they have approached any UK or foreign banks, I don't know if they have made a deal with anyone or not, but I'm not the one making things up.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

Where do you get your information that no UK bank would touch such a deal, and what is the deal they wont touch?

 

You mean you don't know and just made that statement up!

 

I don't know if they have approached any UK or foreign banks, I don't know if they have made a deal with anyone or not, but I'm not the one making things up.

 

Can you not read?

 

I stated that if a UK partner was found we would have heard about it surely?

 

Semantics Semantics?

[topcat]

I am implying nothing just asking the question, nor do I know anything, why, do YOU know something we don't know? Or are we not allowed to question anything? I realise the concept of democracy is new to our Overlord.

 

If a UK Bank/Financial institution had been approached and agreed to such a deal, all you would have heard was singing from the roof tops about "HMFC in partnership with XXBank" etc

 

Silence speaks volumes.

 

There seems to be logical gap there.

 

I followed the first bit:

If a UK partner had been found we'd have heard, We've not heard, Hence a UK Partner has not been found

 

It was the second bit that seemed odd:

No UK partner has been found therefore no UK partner could ever be found.

 

I'm familiar with basic hobonomics but I'm puzzled by this bit

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

There seems to be logical gap there.

 

I followed the first bit:

If a UK partner had been found we'd have heard, We've not heard, Hence a UK Partner has not been found

 

It was the second bit that seemed odd:

No UK partner has been found therefore no UK partner could ever be found.

 

I'm familiar with basic hobonomics but I'm puzzled by this bit

 

I'm wondering why Sutol got a bit steamed up anyway.

 

Why would he care if I asked this question? He has utter faith in Vlad's project so why should he be bothered where the finance is coming from?

 

Or is it that Sutol has a connection with the regime and let the game away there ie he just confirmed there is no UK financial backing....

[K1874M]

I am implying nothing just asking the question, nor do I know anything, why, do YOU know something we don't know? Or are we not allowed to question anything? I realise the concept of democracy is new to our Overlord.

 

If a UK Bank/Financial institution had been approached and agreed to such a deal, all you would have heard was singing from the roof tops about "HMFC in partnership with XXBank" etc

 

Silence speaks volumes.

 

I was shocked that Aegon got in to bed with us, was shocked when Romanov took our sinking ship over... things do happen.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

I was shocked that Aegon got in to bed with us, was shocked when Romanov took our sinking ship over... things do happen.[/QUOTE]

 

I suppose your right.

 

I just feel that if I had a better knowledge of who was putting in all this finance and why particularly in the present climate, I would feel more confidant.

[SUTOL]

I'm wondering why Sutol got a bit steamed up anyway.

 

I never got steamed up, I asked you a question.

 

 

Why would he care if I asked this question?

 

I don't care what questions you ask, it was the statement you made that I questioned.

 

 

He has utter faith in Vlad's project so why should he be bothered where the finance is coming from?

 

I do not recall ever saying that.

 

Or is it that Sutol has a connection with the regime and let the game away there ie he just confirmed there is no UK financial backing....

 

 

 

 

When did I confirm there was no UK backing, you claimed it, I asked where you got the info from, you said because we hadn't heard who was backing it.

I'd dispute that that means we don't have any backing for it.

[Buffalo Bill]

A bit of this caper might settle a few nerves.

 

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

I never got steamed up, I asked you a question.

 

 

 

 

I don't care what questions you ask, it was the statement you made that I questioned.

 

 

 

 

I do not recall ever saying that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When did I confirm there was no UK backing, you claimed it, I asked where you got the info from, you said because we hadn't heard who was backing it.

I'd dispute that that means we don't have any backing for it.

 

Annoying all this eh?

 

Now you know how all of us feel who dont believe all the crap Vlad has spouted for 2 years.

 

Oh and thanks, you told me what I wanted to know.

[SUTOL]

Oh and thanks, you told me what I wanted to know.

 

No problem, didn't realise I had though

 

So just to clarify, you claim no UK company will assist in financing anything to do with the re-development of Tynecastle, because one hasn't been announced yet.

 

Although you don't know if any have been approached, how much finance if any is being looked for, what the make-up of any deal (if it were to exist) would be.

 

Now you've told me all I need to know about you.

[aDONis]

Tomorrows chip paper story, I'm afraid.

 

I think there will always be stories about the development (the numbers involved with Hearts these days, mean it's inevitable).

 

If it does start (I'll keep my own council on that), then the next stuff will be about viability, spiraling costs, will it ever be completed etc. etc.

 

I'd get used to it if I were you.

 

aDONis

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

No problem, didn't realise I had though

 

So just to clarify, you claim no UK company will assist in financing anything to do with the re-development of Tynecastle, because one hasn't been announced yet.

 

Although you don't know if any have been approached, how much finance if any is being looked for, what the make-up of any deal (if it were to exist) would be.

 

Now you've told me all I need to know about you.

 

Glad to be of service.

 

You better check and see if Vlad wants his afternoon cuppa now.

[Buffalo Bill]

Glad to be of service.

 

You better check and see if Vlad wants his afternoon cuppa now.

 

"Yes please, but only if it comes with a ginger nut".

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[SUTOL]

You better check and see if Vlad wants his afternoon cuppa now.

 

He's not in.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

"Yes please, but only if it comes with a ginger nut".

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

Ooooh Nutty!!!

[Boris]

A bit of this caper might settle a few nerves.

 

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

How Denis maaaan, the Jorrrmans are takin all wor jobs!

 

 

Reminiscent of Graham Hogg!

[Boris]

Tomorrows chip paper story, I'm afraid.

 

I think there will always be stories about the development (the numbers involved with Hearts these days, mean it's inevitable).

 

If it does start (I'll keep my own council on that), then the next stuff will be about viability, spiraling costs, will it ever be completed etc. etc.

 

I'd get used to it if I were you.

 

aDONis

 

How's your new stadium coming along? Wiggy kicked you out of Pittodrie yet?

[Buffalo Bill]

 

 

Reminiscent of Graham Hogg!

 

Post-Starks Park, indeed.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Buffalo Bill]

How's your new stadium coming along? Wiggy kicked you out of Pittodrie yet?

 

 

Fit-like, we had 4,000 in the Roseburn Stand!

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[redm]

Banks will be reassessing their risk options.

 

Risks re lending to a HMFC - 1. a football club currently in debt will be risky, 2. the management in charge of the development / money spend are unpredictable

 

If you were in charge of lending, say ?35m to Vlad, from a major bank, would you do it?

 

Most of these sort of developments, though - multi-mixed use - would be some sort of joint venture.

 

I dont think for one minute the entity that contracts with the construction guys here will be HMFC or some affiliate. But equally I dont see Vlad walking into an arrangement with a bigger partner he isnt in control of.

 

UBIG will no doubt be one party and I'd imagine some sort of non-UK business contact of Vlads will be the other. If he can avoid having to borrow from a bank all to the good.

 

The main cash rich economy looking for overseas investments at present is China......

 

 

Okay, what I really meant to ask is why banks would be less likely to look favourably upon this development than any other. Things have changed radically since the crunch but they're still doling out the cash for investment purposes - fortunately their normal account customers are there to soak up the worst of it and take the high interest rates on the chin. Grr. Thieving fraudsters, the lot of them.

 

Anyway...the other lending issues you mentioned...I don't think for a second that it would be Hearts borrowing anything. No external organisation would even consider it given our current level of debt so if Hearts end up footing the bill it'll only be UBIG's money on our books. As for the unpredictability of our great leader...I don't think they'd give two hoots about any of that stuff. Their risk assessments are surely done on the basis of how likely they are to get their cash back? I don't think the criteria for that would have a section on comments made by Scottish tabloids or the opinions of Kickbackers....(although they possibly should!).

 

Totally agree about the joint venture thing though...mixed use developments are often the result of planning rather than the other way around, as it is here. Most of the time they're created out of necessity, for example by a residential developer who wants to build flats but finds that he can only do so (or is more likely to get consent) if there's some sort of commercial/employment attached etc. So the residential guys go off and find themselves some commercial friends and suggest making something together - hey presto. That's one of the most common scenarios. But I don't know how easily our situation lends itself to joint investment or even what the appeal would necessarily be for the other party...it's not as if they're creating something as a product they can then sell. At least, I very much hope it isn't anyway...hehe.

 

My point being...yes...it's a mixed use development, but it's not like most others you'll hear about.

[PTBCAL]

Okay, what I really meant to ask is why banks would be less likely to look favourably upon this development than any other. Things have changed radically since the crunch but they're still doling out the cash for investment purposes - fortunately their normal account customers are there to soak up the worst of it and take the high interest rates on the chin. Grr. Thieving fraudsters, the lot of them.

 

Anyway...the other lending issues you mentioned...I don't think for a second that it would be Hearts borrowing anything. No external organisation would even consider it given our current level of debt so if Hearts end up footing the bill it'll only be UBIG's money on our books. As for the unpredictability of our great leader...I don't think they'd give two hoots about any of that stuff. Their risk assessments are surely done on the basis of how likely they are to get their cash back? I don't think the criteria for that would have a section on comments made by Scottish tabloids or the opinions of Kickbackers....(although they possibly should!).

 

Totally agree about the joint venture thing though...mixed use developments are often the result of planning rather than the other way around, as it is here. Most of the time they're created out of necessity, for example by a residential developer who wants to build flats but finds that he can only do so (or is more likely to get consent) if there's some sort of commercial/employment attached etc. So the residential guys go off and find themselves some commercial friends and suggest making something together - hey presto. That's one of the most common scenarios. But I don't know how easily our situation lends itself to joint investment or even what the appeal would necessarily be for the other party...it's not as if they're creating something as a product they can then sell. At least, I very much hope it isn't anyway...hehe.

 

My point being...yes...it's a mixed use development, but it's not like most others you'll hear about.

 

Don't be suprised if the hotel gets sold down the line. For a tidy profit.

 

Also UBIG will build flats to sell - not redrow, millerhomes etc.... thus they will command a greater shar eof any potential profit.

[Guest casper]

I don't think for a second that it would be Hearts borrowing anything.

 

This is the thing that I don't get.

If Hearts aren't going to be borrowing the money, who will - and who will own the development (including the stand) and who will benefit form any profit made.

This whole thing IMO is going to end in the stadium being split from the football club, the very thing we all protested about when CPR was in control.

I'd love to see a shiny new stand but not at any price.

[Guest casper]

Don't be suprised if the hotel gets sold down the line. For a tidy profit.

 

Also UBIG will build flats to sell - not redrow, millerhomes etc.... thus they will command a greater shar eof any potential profit.

 

Aye, but profit for who?

[Thig Ar Latha]

Aye, but profit for who?

 

Hearts need a Stand, and things are moving forward on that front. UBIG want the Hotel development etc which they can't get on the current site without the Stand as they will have a huge premium to pay if there is no Tynecastle Park, IIRC.

 

If the Hotel development etc boosts the income for Hearts and UBIG have access to the Capital, I really don't see what the problem is as UBIG seem to underwrite our debt anyway.

 

Also, if UBIG have the Capital, now would appear a good time to build as by the time it's ready the economy would probably have picked up again. To delay would make the project more expensive.

[PTBCAL]

Aye, but profit for who?

 

I expect 2 companies to be involved with Hearts in the future.

 

A - Tynecastle ltd - we rent the stadium and live off a % of the gate receipts.

 

B - UBIG Developments Ltd - they own the hotel/flats/retail complex and receive all/any profit from retail, hotel (sold or not), rent etc....

 

IMHO.

[Guest casper]

Hearts need a Stand, and things are moving forward on that front. UBIG want the Hotel development etc which they can't get on the current site without the Stand as they will have a huge premium to pay if there is no Tynecastle Park, IIRC.

 

If the Hotel development etc boosts the income for Hearts and UBIG have access to the Capital, I really don't see what the problem is as UBIG seem to underwrite our debt anyway.

 

Also, if UBIG have the Capital, now would appear a good time to build as by the time it's ready the economy would probably have picked up again. To delay would make the project more expensive.

 

But if Hearts are not paying for the stand are Hearts going to see any of the benefits from it form it. Will Hearts make money from corporate facilities and will the have to pay rent to Ubig for the use of the stand? Will it result in the stadium being split from the football club? Questions like this have not been answered, or even asked very often.

[Guest casper]

A - Tynecastle ltd - we rent the stadium and live off a % of the gate receipts

 

So we get a new stand in a ground that we don't own.

That price is too high IMO.

[PTBCAL]

So we get a new stand in a ground that we don't own.

That price is too high IMO.

 

Do we really own the ground now?

[Nelly Terraces]

Do we really own the ground now?

 

'WE' in effect now don't really exist. Hearts are now basically owned by 1 person and are at his mercy. Hearts are Vlad, Vlad is Hearts. End of.

 

The result of this so far has been nothing short of monumentally damaging.

[Guest casper]

Do we really own the ground now?

 

I don't suppose we do.

When Romanov has had enough and sells up and we end up with no ground we can always go to Murrayfield. I remember you were all for that last time.

[PTBCAL]

I don't suppose we do.

When Romanov has had enough and sells up and we end up with no ground we can always go to Murrayfield. I remember you were all for that last time.

 

You are kidding - Yes?

[Guest casper]

You are kidding - Yes?

 

[doctor jambo]

We haven't owned the ground for years anyway

THe banks owned it and, I believe, even had the deeds

It was the banks that were insisting on its sale previously

Many, and very successful clubs do not own thier own stadia, and I dont think this is a huge issue, personally

As long as the friggin thing gets built

The only append I would mention is that if the ground and the club get separated our debt better go along with the stadium.....

[Father Tiresias]

Don't be suprised if the hotel gets sold down the line. For a tidy profit.

 

Also UBIG will build flats to sell - not redrow, millerhomes etc.... thus they will command a greater shar eof any potential profit.

 

The sale of the hotel won't recoup much of the ?51m. The 180 bedroom Novotel at Lauriston Place cost ?18m and the Hearts hotel is smaller and in a less desirable location.