Buffalo Bill Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Maybe I've been eating too many Ikea meatballs?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 In that case, there would be no Rangers too, and what is Celtic's debt sitting at these days? Of course, teams would need to be financially stable but in terms of this theoretical debate, we'd need to see beyond that point for now, or accept that clubs would get their house in order (such as 'Rangers 2012' which could well happen anyway). These aren't the most up to date stats but it shows here there are half a dozen Scandinavian clubs with higher average attendances than ourselves. Crowd figures Couple them all together, with increased revenue and possible interest and you've got potentially, a good league there with decent-sized clubs plus Scotland's biggest sides. And what's to say there'd be no Scottish Cup? If this was ever brokered, there is nothing to stop domestic cup competitions from continuing. BB i'm sure there is always a way to make something like a North Sea league look attractive but i'm afraid the reality would be something else entirely. How many away games is the average Jambo going to get to? 1 or 2 a season? Watching your team maybe once a month at home? I reckon there would be an immediate disconnect with the fans. Our true core is what 8,000/9000? that won't sustain the financials to allow any kind of challenge against Scandic teams that are more financially secure and better structured. Who says they'd even want to play Scottish teams anyway? Part of the reason we are in the shit is our inability to deal with cold hard reality. We need to get our own house in order, get our own league in order and all this fanciful talk of playing the 'cream of Scandinavia' will vanish quicker than methadone down Leith. I'm quite sure that a domestic league and domestic cup competition will continue to exist but we'd not be part of it, just in the same way we'd not allow the ugly sisters to keep an interest in it if the buggered off to England or a proper Atlantic League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 BB i'm sure there is always a way to make something like a North Sea league look attractive but i'm afraid the reality would be something else entirely. How many away games is the average Jambo going to get to? 1 or 2 a season? Watching your team maybe once a month at home? I reckon there would be an immediate disconnect with the fans. Our true core is what 8,000/9000? that won't sustain the financials to allow any kind of challenge against Scandic teams that are more financially secure and better structured. The up side is that you'd get to visit great cities like Copenhagen, Oslo and Stockholm. As for Scandinavian teams being better structured: we'd all be better structured because we'd all be under the one executive. Whatever they have, we'd have too. Who says they'd even want to play Scottish teams anyway? Well maybe they wouldn't. This is all a hypothetical argument, but perhaps they'd like it to happen for the same reasons as us - a pool of the biggest clubs competing on a bigger stage. I am sure some Nordic fans would love to face the Old Firm, and enjoy visits to Edinburgh etc. Part of the reason we are in the shit is our inability to deal with cold hard reality. We need to get our own house in order, get our own league in order and all this fanciful talk of playing the 'cream of Scandinavia' will vanish quicker than methadone down Leith. It's a theoretical discussion. No one on this thread is applying to Uefa for it to happen. I'm quite sure that a domestic league and domestic cup competition will continue to exist but we'd not be part of it, just in the same way we'd not allow the ugly sisters to keep an interest in it if the buggered off to England or a proper Atlantic League. Why not? An Atlantic League might not necessarily be a 'breakaway'. Who is to say it couldn't be supported by the SFA? Of course, let me stipulate that I don't think it will happen but there is nothing to say it couldn't or shouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 BB wouldn't it be simpler and easier just to get our act together so we can qualify into the Europa League and you get to visit more places like London, Budapest, Zagreb, Prague, Rotterdam, Basle, Braga, Bordeaux etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 BB wouldn't it be simpler and easier just to get our act together so we can qualify into the Europa League and you get to visit more places like London, Budapest, Zagreb, Prague, Rotterdam, Basle, Braga, Bordeaux etc? Yes, however... The confines of the SPL and Scottish football will forever impede any real progress. A bigger league, on a bigger stage would be better than the SPL. Plus, there is nothing to suggest that an Atlantic League, if treated as 'domestic' competition, couldn't provide access to the Europa/champions League anyway. Yet I agree with you that if Hearts were better, even just a little bit, maybe getting to cup finals more often and reaching the Europa group stages then, yes, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I thank you, Charlie for introducing this thought-provoking thread to the Terrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 BB you can't really blame the SPL for our dismal european results when clubs from much smaller leagues and with player budgets much smaller than our own like Shamrock Rovers and Maribor have been able to fight their way through the qualifiers to the group stages of the Europa League. Granted we got the worst possible draw this season in terms of getting through but we've failed now at numerous attempts either to get to the group stages or even to win a european place in the SPL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 The up side is that you'd get to visit great cities like Copenhagen, Oslo and Stockholm. As for Scandinavian teams being better structured: we'd all be better structured because we'd all be under the one executive. Whatever they have, we'd have too. Well maybe they wouldn't. This is all a hypothetical argument, but perhaps they'd like it to happen for the same reasons as us - a pool of the biggest clubs competing on a bigger stage. I am sure some Nordic fans would love to face the Old Firm, and enjoy visits to Edinburgh etc. It's a theoretical discussion. No one on this thread is applying to Uefa for it to happen. Why not? An Atlantic League might not necessarily be a 'breakaway'. Who is to say it couldn't be supported by the SFA? Of course, let me stipulate that I don't think it will happen but there is nothing to say it couldn't or shouldn't. All fair points and of course it is a theoretical discussion. However, theoretically speaking i'd prefer Hearts to get themselves into a shape where we can jettison the fecking lunatic that thinks he's pumped ?200m into us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 BB you can't really blame the SPL for our dismal european results when clubs from much smaller leagues and with player budgets much smaller than our own like Shamrock Rovers and Maribor have been able to fight their way through the qualifiers to the group stages of the Europa League. Granted we got the worst possible draw this season in terms of getting through but we've failed now at numerous attempts either to get to the group stages or even to win a european place in the SPL. I accept that you get the odd exception to the rule from time to time but generally, the better the league, the better the teams do in Europe. A bigger league, and a bigger stage, with bigger income streams would aid HMFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 BB here is the current list of Europa League group tables. At a quick glance HMFC should be able to compete on broadly equal terms with approx 50% of these 48 teams. Of course some are from much bigger and richer countries but many are not. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/uefa_cup_tables/default.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 BB here is the current list of Europa League group tables. At a quick glance HMFC should be able to compete on broadly equal terms with approx 50% of these 48 teams. Of course some are from much bigger and richer countries but many are not. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/uefa_cup_tables/default.stm We should be able to compete on a Europa level, yes. As should Aberdeen, Hibs and Dundee Utd. If you take away the Old Firm's recent Uefa Cup final involvements, something has gone badly wrong for Scottish football in the last 20 years. Let's hope, Charlie that one day, a solution presents itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 We should be able to compete on a Europa level, yes. As should Aberdeen, Hibs and Dundee Utd. If you take away the Old Firm's recent Uefa Cup final involvements, something has gone badly wrong for Scottish football in the last 20 years. Let's hope, Charlie that one day, a solution presents itself. BB don't you think it is somewhat ironic that our team of 2004-05 which was probably almost certainly the least expensive team in the last 15 years in terms of cost to assemble and it's annual wage bill is the team that got further than any of the other in European competition? I think that is a lesson for Hearts fans and indeed Scottish clubs - we think our problems are we don't generate enough money to afford the best players - that might be true if you are playing Tottenham Hotspur but not when you are facing the run of the mill European teams that repeatedly knock SPL teams out of European competitions. The 2004-05 team wasn't a great Hearts team by any stretch of the imagination but they showed a lot of guts in those European games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambos are go! Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I accept that you get the odd exception to the rule from time to time but generally, the better the league, the better the teams do in Europe. A bigger league, and a bigger stage, with bigger income streams would aid HMFC. Agree. We need to find a way to grow the business in a sustainable fashion and the SPL/Scottish football is not a platform for that. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 Agree. We need to find a way to grow the business in a sustainable fashion and the SPL/Scottish football is not a platform for that. IMO. Unless Iam mistaken Hearts, Rangers & Celtic have all played in Scottish Football for at least 123 years having survived World Wars, recessions, a global depression, end of empire and massive economic and social changes ...........having survived all of that within the confines of Scottish fitba somehow suddenly it's not the platform for us to achieve sustainable growth? Yes there are problems that need fixing but those are a question of will and the choices our clubs make not something fundamentally wrong with this country or how it supports it's football clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc1440 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Unless Iam mistaken Hearts, Rangers & Celtic have all played in Scottish Football for at least 123 years having survived World Wars, recessions, a global depression, end of empire and massive economic and social changes ...........having survived all of that within the confines of Scottish fitba somehow suddenly it's not the platform for us to achieve sustainable growth? Yes Yes there are problems that need fixing but those are a question of will and the choices our clubs make not something fundamentally wrong with this country or how it supports it's football clubs. Way beyond fixing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 Only after disaster can we be resurrected imo. We are in the Capital of Scotland and unless UEFA and FIFA give the green light to abandon the notion of national leagues and associations as the cornerstone of football and let anybody go play anywhere then i think we have to resolve our problems within Scotland first and foremost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc1440 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Only after disaster can we be resurrected imo. We are in the Capital of Scotland and unless UEFA and FIFA give the green light to abandon the notion of national leagues and associations as the cornerstone of football and let anybody go play anywhere then i think we have to resolve our problems within Scotland first and foremost. Understand that UEFA gave approval for the North Atlantic League Cup (2003). If Scottish clubs are to grow out-with Scotland then the tournament should start small then grow as it moves. Champions League started with 8 teams and no semis, World and European cups also with only 8 teams. No record of a full-blown international club competition starting with 16 clubs and 30 matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 BB don't you think it is somewhat ironic that our team of 2004-05 which was probably almost certainly the least expensive team in the last 15 years in terms of cost to assemble and it's annual wage bill is the team that got further than any of the other in European competition? I think that is a lesson for Hearts fans and indeed Scottish clubs - we think our problems are we don't generate enough money to afford the best players - that might be true if you are playing Tottenham Hotspur but not when you are facing the run of the mill European teams that repeatedly knock SPL teams out of European competitions. The 2004-05 team wasn't a great Hearts team by any stretch of the imagination but they showed a lot of guts in those European games. Getting past one round was a good achievement, yes. To add to you point, it was during the worst season of Alex MacDonald's Premier League years that we went to the Uefa Cup quarters. But run of mill teams that repeatedly knock Scottish teams out of Europe hints at something more fundamentally wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 The Irish, Baltic & Scandinavian nations already have their own small international cup competitions that run in parallel to their normal seasons. UEFA permit these kind of tournaments but they don't have any UEFA status or entry prospects. Basically they are similar to the old texaco cup / anglo-scottish / anglo-italian cups we used to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay B-8) Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 how about an Edinburgh league where we pump hubs,meadowbank,Edinburgh city on alternating weeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambos are go! Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Unless Iam mistaken Hearts, Rangers & Celtic have all played in Scottish Football for at least 123 years having survived World Wars, recessions, a global depression, end of empire and massive economic and social changes ...........having survived all of that within the confines of Scottish fitba somehow suddenly it's not the platform for us to achieve sustainable growth? Yes there are problems that need fixing but those are a question of will and the choices our clubs make not something fundamentally wrong with this country or how it supports it's football clubs. Most of that period was under the SFL but it was left behind like the old English League down south. Rugby has been rebuilt on a top down basis. European football is going down the same route with Clubs not Leagues and associations driving change.Cricket has radically reformed to meet commercial realities and the huge market in the sub continent. Until a year ago I agreed with your view. But now I think change must come and we must try and escape the confines of Scottish Football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 The Irish, Baltic & Scandinavian nations already have their own small international cup competitions that run in parallel to their normal seasons. UEFA permit these kind of tournaments but they don't have any UEFA status or entry prospects. Basically they are similar to the old texaco cup / anglo-scottish / anglo-italian cups we used to have. UEFA would have to fully accept and recognize any Atlantic League set-up. Perhaps they'd view a joint venture of four or so small Northern European countries (Scotland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway) creating one decent sized, aspiring domestic league competition that would improve their participating teams chances of competing more competitively in the Europa/Champions Leagues. If the competition was successful, with good TV revenue and a population pool of c25M people, then perhaps Rangers (with 50,000 crowds) and Celtic (with 60,000 crowds) could be up against at least six or seven other sides that average 20,000 crowds or thereabouts. This to me, in theory, sounds better than the SPL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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