Deans Atlantic League Fooly

[Charlie-Brown]

Iam sure Leslie Deans has the best of intentions and only wants the best for Hearts but I think he's confusing the issue and creating an unnecessary distraction by talking about Hearts playing in an Atlantic League type proposal post take-over and shake up of Scottish football.

 

Firstly there simply isn't going to be an Atlantic League that will replace the bread and butter of Scottish League football, secondly all the teams and countries he mentions already play in an extra revenue/interest generating competiton ie the Europa League - perhaps if HMFC can improve enough to actually qualify for the group stages of that tournament then fans would have the exciting games and extra revenue opportunities that Deans discusses.

 

But that's a secondary concern - first and foremost HMFC have to secfure their financial future and ensure they are run on a financially sustainable basis or else debt problems will simply keep on repeating themselves again in future.

[Buffalo Bill]

Personally, I think anything that breaks free from the depressingly dull constraints of the SPL is worth considering but I suspect we need it more than any other nation.

[whitedevries]

It might be the only chance for clubs like Hearts to avoid going part-time. Scottish Fotball is in freefall and gates might get worse if the current economic situation continues. The SPL is unsustainable and the train of greed for players is totally de-railed.

[Charlie-Brown]

BB it's simply never going to happen - it doesn't provide any extra benefits that aren't already available from the Europa league for mid-sized clubs or the Champions Legue for the bigger clubs. Secondly how or why would Hearts be in it if we can't even make the Europa group stages despite several attempts?

 

HMFC need to up our game at home & abroad and maximise our resources and our return on investment not just simply throw more money we don't have at the team.

[Buffalo Bill]

There's several discussions to be had here. It's an interesting thread, potentially.

 

1. Whether it could ever happen.

 

2. Whether it's a good idea.

 

3. What countries could be involved.

 

4. Why would it be better?

 

5. Why would it be more successful/financially viable?

 

 

I can't see it happening for legal reason. The dinosaurs that control Scottish football would never give up power. I do think theoretically, it's a good idea because it breaks free from the confines of our terrible domestic game. I doubt Holland and Portugal would ever to be involved but Sweden, Norway, Denmark?

 

Would it better? It would certainly introduce a better smattering of teams. It would be successful if the crowds went up and TV money came pouring in from somewhere.

 

I appreciate though that it's all theory.

[Buffalo Bill]

BB it's simply never going to happen - it doesn't provide any extra benefits that aren't already available from the Europa league for mid-sized clubs or the Champions Legue for the bigger clubs. Secondly how or why would Hearts be in it if we can't even make the Europa group stages despite several attempts?

 

HMFC need to up our game at home & abroad and maximise our resources and our return on investment not just simply throw more money we don't have at the team.

 

 

I'm not saying it will or even could happen, Charlie - that's a different argument.

 

 

But if it happened, I'm sure we'd be in it. If it increased revenue, then we'd probably have a better team than the one that say, lost 5-0 to Spurs.

[Italian Lambretta]

Is there a link to where he's saying this?

 

Iam sure Leslie Deans has the best of intentions and only wants the best for Hearts but I think he's confusing the issue and creating an unnecessary distraction by talking about Hearts playing in an Atlantic League type proposal post take-over and shake up of Scottish football.

 

Firstly there simply isn't going to be an Atlantic League that will replace the bread and butter of Scottish League football, secondly all the teams and countries he mentions already play in an extra revenue/interest generating competiton ie the Europa League - perhaps if HMFC can improve enough to actually qualify for the group stages of that tournament then fans would have the exciting games and extra revenue opportunities that Deans discusses.

 

But that's a secondary concern - first and foremost HMFC have to secfure their financial future and ensure they are run on a financially sustainable basis or else debt problems will simply keep on repeating themselves again in future.

[Charlie-Brown]

BB even if clubs can swap countries by choice which they can't why would they choose to play Scottish teams as opposed to other nearer neighbours?

 

The Europa League is already the closest equivalent for clubs like Hearts to generate extra interest and revenue - instead of dreaming about hypothetical possibilities we would do better to focus our attentions on a competition that does exist and we can qualify for if we improve our performances.

[Charlie-Brown]

Is there a link to where he's saying this?

 

Deans & Foulkes post-Romanov thoughts http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/interview_leslie_deans_dreams_of_atlantic_league_for_hearts_in_a_post_vlad_world_1_1976008

[Buffalo Bill]

BB even if clubs can swap countries by choice which they can't why would they choose to play Scottish teams as opposed to other nearer neighbours?

 

I'm guessing because the likes of Germany and Spain wouldn't want them, but a gathering of smaller nations would.

 

The Europa League is already the closest equivalent for clubs like Hearts to generate extra interest and revenue - instead of dreaming about hypothetical possibilities we would do better to focus our attentions on a competition that does exist and we can qualify for if we improve our performances.

 

 

Ok, but you brought the subject to the table and I therefore thought you were inviting us to discuss the idea.

[Charlie-Brown]

I'm guessing because the likes of Germany and Spain wouldn't want them, but a gathering of smaller nations would.

 

 

 

 

Ok, but you brought the subject to the table and I therefore thought you were inviting us to discuss the idea.

 

Given their closer proximity i guess the Danish would rather play fellow Scandinavians plus Dutch & Belgians than Scots? or they would rather have the chance to face bigger nations clubs Spurs & Athletico Madrid etc in a Europa League group.

 

I just don't see what it adds over a Europe wide tournament especially when most of the proposed countries have little overall in common except size?

[Buffalo Bill]

Given their closer proximity i guess the Danish would rather play fellow Scandinavians plus Dutch & Belgians than Scots? or they would rather have the chance to face bigger nations clubs Spurs & Athletico Madrid etc in a Europa League group.

 

I just don't see what it adds over a Europe wide tournament especially when most of the proposed countries have little overall in common except size?

 

 

Europe has been smaller in terms of air travel and political union so perhaps a hop across the North Sea for FC Copenhagen or IFK G?teborg is no worse than twho Russian teams travelling up and down their vast country. But I'm not sure why they'd have to chose the league over Uefa tournaments? Couldn't they run both concurrently?

 

 

If it were up to me, and the chance of an Atlantic (or should that be North Sea?) league came up then I'd jump at it.

 

 

Would Denmark, Sweden and Norway want Scotland to be involved?

 

 

No idea.

 

 

 

.

[Charlie-Brown]

BB how owuld they qualify for a eurpean wide tournament from this transnational league? would that mean Denmark, Scotland's, Norways UEFA places would go to those teams that remained in the national league?

[ToadKiller Dog]

For the armchair fan i imagine an Atlantic ,north sea league would have its benefits for the hard pushed almost criminalized goes to matches fan cant see the benefit might get a few away games but regular trips to some of the most expensive places in Europe is not likely .

 

I think the Atlantic league would be of only short term gain . Maybe we should look at inviting into the SPL a few of the larger Irish/northern Irish sides as long as its not called a celtic league .The best of them have more to offer than most of the SFL teams . Though i can see the police not being for this but sensible policing (if such a thing ) could sort that out .

Might make the 16/18 team league more possible .

Self Interest will stop any real change .

 

We really need to look at sorting the scottish league out first before fantasy ideas .

[Drylaw Hearts]

I think a league of this type will go ahead one day but there is no chance of us ever being involved.

[Buffalo Bill]

BB how owuld they qualify for a eurpean wide tournament from this transnational league? would that mean Denmark, Scotland's, Norways UEFA places would go to those teams that remained in the national league?

 

 

In theory, I don't see why the atlantic League couldn't be the 'top league' of Scotland, Denmark etc to feed into domestically. The top Atlantic League placings could then qualify for the Europa League/Champions League etc.

 

 

It would all need to be negotiated and agreed through UEFA.

 

 

I don't see why it couldn't happen but I do see why it wouldn't.

[IMA MAROON]

A second rate Euro league. It would be pish.

[Jambo Ell]

Exactly. How would supporters who pride themselves on attending every match over X numbers of years be expected to continue attending every match when every second match is effectively involving forking for a holiday. You'd be doing well to get 100 away fans per game.

 

I agree Scottish football is on its knees and it requires change soonsr rather than later before it ends up part-time like Ireland but an Atlantic League is not the answer. What the solution is, I don't know. Perhaps an extension of the current 12 team format to 14, 16 or 18? There's plenty of arguments against that too though with smaller clubs relying on their income on their 4 games against the Old Firm per season.

 

I just hope some kind of change happens soon.

For the armchair fan i imagine an Atlantic ,north sea league would have its benefits for the hard pushed almost criminalized goes to matches fan cant see the benefit might get a few away games but regular trips to some of the most expensive places in Europe is not likely .

 

I think the Atlantic league would be of only short term gain . Maybe we should look at inviting into the SPL a few of the larger Irish/northern Irish sides as long as its not called a celtic league .The best of them have more to offer than most of the SFL teams . Though i can see the police not being for this but sensible policing (if such a thing ) could sort that out .

Might make the 16/18 team league more possible .

Self Interest will stop any real change .

 

We really need to look at sorting the scottish league out first before fantasy ideas .

[JC]

Was there not much derision and laughter when rangers and Celtic suggested something similar???!

[hmfc1440]

only way to go imho - no premiership, no english as they don't want or need us, no british cup, no 10-team prem.

Deans is spot on.

[swavgav85]

is it not possible for all the teams in spl/sfl to just feck off away from the OF and make up 2 x 18 league teams and watch the OF effectively rot away!

[Optimus Prime]

I'm amazed that Deans thinks theres a likelyhood that Hearts would be involved in this. Given the coutries/teams touted Scotland wouldn't exactly be calling the shots in terms of who gets in. It would be the Old Firm and that's it.

 

The problem with this is that it would set a precedent for an international league that breaks national boundaries. If it ever got off the ground (i don't think there's any chance)the next step would be for the big clubs in Spain, England, Germany etc doing exactly the same and forming a European Super League. This would leave the "Atlantic League" and it's clubs back at square one as a sideshow to the main event.

[Preston Jambo]

Campbell Ogilvie attended one of the Manchester Hearts meetings a while back and talked about his involvement in the proposed Atlantic League when he was at Rangers.

 

He said that although he attended a number of meetings in Amsterdam about it they were only going through the motions as there was no chance of it going ahead.

 

He said that so many of the teams involved would not sit down together to discuss things due to politics.

[Francis Albert]

Wasn't Deans example of the sort of glamour fixture we could look forward to Ajax vs Hearts? To imagine that we are in the same league (figuratively) or anytime in the foreseeabl future could be (literally) is delusion.

[Mike Hunt]

Simply talking up the potential for the benefit of Hearts, he wants to attract interest like the rest of us

[Rods]

I think a league of this type will go ahead one day but there is no chance of us ever being involved.

 

I agree with drylaw but I forsee all the big teams in a league and a second division of which Hearts will be in.

[Remnants of Standards]

Absolute nonsense from start to finish in that article featuring Deans and Foulkes. Concentrate on finding/helping a way to pay a wage and get the club on an even keel rather than clutching at straws like this.

 

Embarrassing once again!

[Charlie-Brown]

I don't know why they didn't just say Hearts potential was shown in 2005-06 and there is no reason why Hearts shouldn't or couldn't aspire to becoming a regular participant in the Europa League group stages. The Spurs games showed the fans demand for attractive fixtures and earned the club some important additional revenue as well as showcasing the club to a wider audience. That would have been far more grounded, realistic and achievable imo.

[Buffalo Bill]

Again, in theory...

 

 

 

Were it to happen, Hearts could be involved depending on which countries participated. If it was every one from Portugal, Scotland, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden etc then we'd struggle to gain an automatic invite into a division of 20 teams.

 

 

But if there was a feeder league, such as our domestic SPL or an Atlantic League 2 then perhaps we could gain entry.

 

 

If you took out Portugal and Holland, two pretty strong leagues on their own merit, then we'd have a chance of qualification based on our fanbase against the likes of the Scandinavian countries.

 

 

In these theoretical discussions, you have to momentarily forget how average/rank a team we are right now. On a bigger stage, we'd have better players and more income.

[Charlie-Brown]

BB we are a small to medium sized regional club in European terms - that wouldn't change in a bigger set up. We'd still be a smaller fish with bigger competitors.

[Ulysses]

BB we are a small to medium sized regional club in European terms - that wouldn't change in a bigger set up. We'd still be a smaller fish with bigger competitors.

 

Is that necessarily true?

 

If a club with a similar fan base to ours were playing in Serie A, or La Liga, or the Premiership, they'd outgun us in terms of squad quality. Why? Because of the increased TV and commercial revenues that they'd get from playing in a league in a bigger market.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

BB it's simply never going to happen - it doesn't provide any extra benefits that aren't already available from the Europa league for mid-sized clubs or the Champions Legue for the bigger clubs. Secondly how or why would Hearts be in it if we can't even make the Europa group stages despite several attempts?

 

HMFC need to up our game at home & abroad and maximise our resources and our return on investment not just simply throw more money we don't have at the team.

 

We have made the group stage.

[southside1874]

Iam sure Leslie Deans has the best of intentions and only wants the best for Hearts but I think he's confusing the issue and creating an unnecessary distraction by talking about Hearts playing in an Atlantic League type proposal post take-over and shake up of Scottish football.

 

Firstly there simply isn't going to be an Atlantic League that will replace the bread and butter of Scottish League football, secondly all the teams and countries he mentions already play in an extra revenue/interest generating competiton ie the Europa League - perhaps if HMFC can improve enough to actually qualify for the group stages of that tournament then fans would have the exciting games and extra revenue opportunities that Deans discusses.

 

But that's a secondary concern - first and foremost HMFC have to secfure their financial future and ensure they are run on a financially sustainable basis or else debt problems will simply keep on repeating themselves again in future.

 

I think he is saying that Hearts, under current restraints are not allowed to grow in Scotland and therefore need to look at being governed by rules outwith the SPL and SFA.

[Drylaw Hearts]

I think he is saying that Hearts, under current restraints are not allowed to grow in Scotland and therefore need to look at being governed by rules outwith the SPL and SFA.

 

Then he is as mad as Vlad.

[southside1874]

Then he is as mad as Vlad.

 

Not really mate. He is offering a solution to the problem rather than identifying the problem. Poor Vlad has spent years now proving to folk what the problem is. If its true that the SPL has obliged Sky with their 4 old firm games a season for 5 years contract, then IMO it proves the guy to be correct.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Not really mate. He is offering a solution to the problem rather than identifying the problem. Poor Vlad has spent years now proving to folk what the problem is. If its true that the SPL has obliged Sky with their 4 old firm games a season for 5 years contract, then IMO it proves the guy to be correct.

 

Whats the problem with that ? I guess all the Edinburgh derbies will be on too.

 

Not showing the OF would be like not showing Barca v Madrid in Spain or the Milan derby in Italy.

[southside1874]

Whats the problem with that ? I guess all the Edinburgh derbies will be on too.

 

Not showing the OF would be like not showing Barca v Madrid in Spain or the Milan derby in Italy.

 

First, they don't have the split in they countries and second, I doubt the contract would ask for these games specifically in these countries. I think the SPL used this as bargaining power. If your willing to accept it then so be it.

[Drylaw Hearts]

First, they don't have the split in they countries and second, I doubt the contract would ask for these games specifically in these countries. I think the SPL used this as bargaining power. If your willing to accept it then so be it.

 

I really don't see the big deal tbh.

 

Lets be honest.....if it wasn't for them we'd have a poorer TV deal.

[JamboAberdeen]

Question is, even if we're invited to framework similar to Royal League, who will pay attention to such a sub-standard Europe League?

Scandinavian attempt was failed due to lack of interest - they couldn't even sell TV right - and I doubt our entry will change scene dramatically.

 

Also we have to accommodate it to already-packed fixture list, 38 league games with 2 cups, international match weeks and possible Europe incursion.

I think it is neither practical nor attractive.

[southside1874]

I really don't see the big deal tbh.

 

Lets be honest.....if it wasn't for them we'd have a poorer TV deal.

 

While Vlad has pumped so much money into the club over the years and we show a deficit, do you really think the ?1.7m makes a difference to the guy? If your attitude is we get a better deal with them??????? Then I think you fail to see what Vlad was all about mate.

[southside1874]

Question is, even if we're invited to framework similar to Royal League, who will pay attention to such a sub-standard Europe League?

Scandinavian attempt was failed due to lack of interest - they couldn't even sell TV right - and I doubt our entry will change scene dramatically.

 

Also we have to accommodate it to already-packed fixture list, 38 league games with 2 cups, international match weeks and possible Europe incursion.

I think it is neither practical nor attractive.

 

A typical I'm better off staying at my mums answer for a teenager who clearly needs his own flat but is afraid he will be out of pocket.

[Drylaw Hearts]

While Vlad has pumped so much money into the club over the years and we show a deficit, do you really think the ?1.7m makes a difference to the guy? If your attitude is we get a better deal with them??????? Then I think you fail to see what Vlad was all about mate.

 

At the moment the last thing we need is for less TV money each season.

[southside1874]

At the moment the last thing we need is for less TV money each season.

 

We would only need about 2k fans coming through the turnstiles every fortnight to equal that cash, but it ain't going to happen if refs are not playing the game. Old Firm games will not have the same attraction if the both teams are not competing with each other. You need to step back and have a good look at scottish football and ask why it isn't competitive anymore? You need to ask yourself why the games are full of incidents and why the players look fed up.

[Charlie-Brown]

At the moment the last thing we need is for less TV money each season.

 

Actually DH it's the additional TV money both here but especially in England that keeps the players wage demands inflated.

 

Less money coming in would mean less available to pay players with = lower average wages across the board.

 

Some individuals would still be able to ask for and get top money but overall wages would fall (Unless clubs increased the percentage of income used to pay players) and of course some players would leave to seek better wages on offer elsewhere.

 

I don't see the big increases in SPL players wages and the amounts SPL clubs have increased their wage bill by have lead to any dramatic or any increase in overall quality of the clubs or SPL - the general perception is it's poorer and European results over the last 25 years would bear this out.

 

Prior to 1990 our clubs European performances & results were of a far higher standard of achievement however since the advent of SKY TV deals and players wages zooming up the quality of our European results has declined dramatically with most of our clubs papped out in the qualififers before the group stages every season.

 

Between massive debt & tv money more cash has sloshed around Scottish fitba than ever before and massively increased sums paid out on wages compared to before?

 

Unless you are a player or agent then where is the improvement? The clubs aren't seeing it on the pitch & crowds are falling as fans have to pay increasing amounts to be mucked about by constant changes to match-days & kick off times etc with games played to suit TV companies schedules not the fans or the clubs either.

 

Less TV money would be a good thing - it is only propping up the current system that needs a radical restructuring which isn't possible whilst clubs cling on for dear lif3 to the current failed set up.

 

Scottish fitba needs a crisis to re-invent itself and reconnect with it's real customers ie the fans. For as long as clubs continue to chase TV money to help them pay over-inflated wages then the current downward trends will continue. As our clubs seem incapable of changing themselves voluntarily then it will need a crisis and some bankruptcies to fix things.

 

Players wage demands and TV's demands & level of control are the 2 biggest problems imo - both feed off each other.

[Paolo]

is it not possible for all the teams in spl/sfl to just feck off away from the OF and make up 2 x 18 league teams and watch the OF effectively rot away!

This.

[Buffalo Bill]

Again, in theory...

 

 

 

Were it to happen, Hearts could be involved depending on which countries participated. If it was every one from Portugal, Scotland, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden etc then we'd struggle to gain an automatic invite into a division of 20 teams.

 

 

But if there was a feeder league, such as our domestic SPL or an Atlantic League 2 then perhaps we could gain entry.

 

 

If you took out Portugal and Holland, two pretty strong leagues on their own merit, then we'd have a chance of qualification based on our fanbase against the likes of the Scandinavian countries.

 

 

In these theoretical discussions, you have to momentarily forget how average/rank a team we are right now. On a bigger stage, we'd have better players and more income.

 

 

BB we are a small to medium sized regional club in European terms - that wouldn't change in a bigger set up. We'd still be a smaller fish with bigger competitors.

 

Charlie, that's bit of a negative statement you make. As I said, if an Atlantic league set up included just Scotland and the Scandinavian countries then I would be fairly confident we'd be in the top 20 clubs, certainly in terms of domestic league position merit and fanbase.

 

If Hearts played on a bigger stage, we'd be a much bigger club. Same with any team. Do you think Wigan and Fulham would average 20,000+ crowds playing in the SPL?

 

The question is: would an Atlantic League BE a bigger stage? I say it would, if a good SKY TV deal could be negotiated. The combined population pool of Scotland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark is around the 25 million mark. If it was negotiated and packaged right, then why not?

 

 

 

Also we have to accommodate it to already-packed fixture list, 38 league games with 2 cups, international match weeks and possible Europe incursion.

I think it is neither practical nor attractive.

 

 

For the likes of Rangers and Celtic (and maybe Hearts), an Atlantic League would be an alternative to the SPL, not an addition. It would only work if the Atlantic League was the domestic bread and butter, with the top clubs competing in the Europa and Champions League.

 

 

Of course, it's all pie in the sky stuff here but that's how it would need to operate.

 

 

 

.

[Coco]

 

For the likes of Rangers and Celtic (and maybe Hearts), an Atlantic League would be an alternative to the SPL, not an addition. It would only work if the Atlantic League was the domestic bread and butter, with the top clubs competing in the Europa and Champions League.

 

 

Of course, it's all pie in the sky stuff here but that's how it would need to operate.

 

 

 

.

 

I don't think there is a market for this kind of football league and don't think it will happen for that reason.

 

One other point, one of the few charms of Scottish football is how easy it is to get to all the away games.

[The Mighty Thor]

The whole thing is a total pipe dream.

 

If, and it's a big if, it did go ahead Hearts would not be part of it. We wouldn't get past the financial regulation an Atlantic league would probably have, let alone the pish poor standard of our football.

 

Everyone is moaning about the poor standard of entertainment as it is. Can you imagine 15 home games a season against European giants the likes of FK Molde or Brondby who'll bring 50 fans to add to the rocking Tynecastle atmosphere. Factor in no Scottish Cup and to me that's a pretty surefire recipe for the death of HMFC.

 

Scottish football needs a complete retrenchment with a restructuring of the league set up, what it doesn't need is owners/clubs hanging on to the feint hope that some new 'super league' is going to come in and sustain the rampant overspending of the last 20 years.

[Charlie-Brown]

The whole thing is a total pipe dream.

 

If, and it's a big if, it did go ahead Hearts would not be part of it. We wouldn't get past the financial regulation an Atlantic league would probably have, let alone the pish poor standard of our football.

 

Everyone is moaning about the poor standard of entertainment as it is. Can you imagine 15 home games a season against European giants the likes of FK Molde or Brondby who'll bring 50 fans to add to the rocking Tynecastle atmosphere. Factor in no Scottish Cup and to me that's a pretty surefire recipe for the death of HMFC.

 

Scottish football needs a complete retrenchment with a restructuring of the league set up, what it doesn't need is owners/clubs hanging on to the feint hope that some new 'super league' is going to come in and sustain the rampant overspending of the last 20 years.

 

As something Vlad might say.....

 

When your rose-bush is overgrown and diseased then you cut it back to the core so it can grow healthily again - only a foolish gardener would apply increasing amounts of bio-grow and hope for the best.

[Buffalo Bill]

We wouldn't get past the financial regulation an Atlantic league would probably have, let alone the pish poor standard of our football.

 

Everyone is moaning about the poor standard of entertainment as it is. Can you imagine 15 home games a season against European giants the likes of FK Molde or Brondby who'll bring 50 fans to add to the rocking Tynecastle atmosphere. Factor in no Scottish Cup and to me that's a pretty surefire recipe for the death of HMFC.

 

Scottish football needs a complete retrenchment with a restructuring of the league set up, what it doesn't need is owners/clubs hanging on to the feint hope that some new 'super league' is going to come in and sustain the rampant overspending of the last 20 years.

 

 

In that case, there would be no Rangers too, and what is Celtic's debt sitting at these days? Of course, teams would need to be financially stable but in terms of this theoretical debate, we'd need to see beyond that point for now, or accept that clubs would get their house in order (such as 'Rangers 2012' which could well happen anyway).

 

These aren't the most up to date stats but it shows here there are half a dozen Scandinavian clubs with higher average attendances than ourselves.

 

Crowd figures

 

Couple them all together, with increased revenue and possible interest and you've got potentially, a good league there with decent-sized clubs plus Scotland's biggest sides.

 

And what's to say there'd be no Scottish Cup?

 

If this was ever brokered, there is nothing to stop domestic cup competitions from continuing.