Jammy T Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) Geoff First objective has to be financial stability of the club? No? No point fans owning the club if all the money used in doing this quickly means the club falls apart on and off the pitch. Primary aim is to buy the club - that is clear. That doesnt mean it is the first thing that needs to happen. Indeed it is implicit that it wouldnt be as we would never have had the purchase price of funds ready to pay over at the time we exit administration Edited February 14, 2014 by Jammy T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut The Crap Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) I'd like to know why extra working capital takes precedence over transfer of ownership? The primary goal of the DDs should be to secure ownership. That protects FoH against a medium-long term drop in pledges. Why given we will still bring in ST and other money, are we providing extra funding for a budget that hasn't yet been set? I think it's explained in a post further back. When we come out of admin we will have neither cash in the bank nor credit line. We need this working capital to smooth over any bumps until we can start operating like a normal business again. Edited February 14, 2014 by Cut The Crap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) Indeed but was that the first objective? I don't believe they ever stated the order of priority, and the reality is it makes no difference to the end game and provides some stability over the next few years.. Some people actively looking for a reason to get their knickers in a twist Edited February 14, 2014 by kingantti1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 He wasn't specific. I took them as parallel objectives if possible depending on circumstances. Ok, so what happens if we decide not to provide the working capital? Some have said this is not what they signed up for, and I can understand why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Italian Lambretta Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 And they've got more to say than their tenner is worth. Too many punters on here shedding a tenner a month dreaming of sitting on the board in my humble opinion. Radio rental !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I don't believe they ever stated the order of priority, and the reality is it makes no difference to the end game and provides some stability over the next few years To clarify, I am not bothered about the order. The point is that this wasn't the sales pitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adi Dassler Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I get very uncomfortable when fans start talking about where a club deserves to be. It smacks of the WATP mentality down Govan way. We are currently exactly where we deserve to be. We have been a financial basket case since the late 1990s. Like you I want the club I support to be at the top level of the game and competing for trophies on a regular basis. However, there is a price to be paid, and earned, to get there. All clubs need to generate income wherever they can, whether that is through ticket sales, success on the park merchandising, sponsorship etc. I happen to think that the price of football (ticket income), and the resultant player wages (expenses) are excessive for the quality of play we see week after week, without adding to the cost through a subscription scheme. I bought into the stated aims of FOH as above, and I would probably buy into a future plan aimed specifically at the Academy. I possibly differ from most people on JKB, in that I don't feel that I have an unbreakable emotional bond with the club. If the club ended up playing at lower levels, or worse still went out of business, I would be saddened by it, but life would go on and I'd find something else to entertain me on Saturday afternoons. FF, You are consistently one of the only people on here that speaks sense 99% of the time. I almost always find myself agreeing with what you say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Do people expect to be members of FOH for life, if they stop paying DDs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Ok, so what happens if we decide not to provide the working capital? Some have said this is not what they signed up for, and I can understand why. What happens if we stop our direct debits for any reason at all? Bad things. I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartandsoul Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Can we not at this point be extremely grateful we still have a team to support ? We were at deaths door on a life support machine a short time ago but we are now once again alive and kicking. Whether people thought their pledges were for the start of owning the club from day one or being used for working capital for the first couple of years is almost irrelevant to me. These pledges from us and the capital from Ann Budge have kept the club from going under and we should be taking one step at a time and not worrying 5 years down the line. We could have ended up like Sevco with people trying to change our name, obliterate our history and take away our titles and cups. Or we could have been the next Third Lanark. FFS lets just be grateful that there is an HMFC here to support today and stop the bickering and arguing and pull together as one united support and let the future unfold in due course An excellent post. We have been on our knees, almost gone. Let us all just get behind this great club of ours and be grateful to Ann Budge and the Foundation of Hearts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bilel Mohsni Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Report states Levein has been advising on footy matters......more fuel to the fire about him being the new manager! More likely director of football imo. Houston as head coach/First team manager. Just my guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego10 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Presumably because when they were able to go into further detail with the planning they realised that original timescales presented an unacceptable associated risk. That's my guess anyway. Even BDO were struggling to get to grips with the costs buried in running Hearts and maybe now we're a good few months down the line, their detailed knowledge of the club's finances and cooperation with FOH means a more sound proposal. There were many unknowns back then, less so now, and of course Ann Budge has to agree to it all so there's the top layer right there. I'm sure they'll explain in detail at some point. We know about the football debt but maybe there's other unavoidable costs we don't yet know about. I'd put vast sums of money on the answer not being "we just fancied having a bit extra to splash out on players we can't afford or other superfluous/frivolous stuff". There will be a written agreement in place that ownership is transferred once repayments are concluded so I'm not even a wee bit worried at all about that. If there's legitimate reasons for 3.8m additional working capital then they b definitely should explain them. I'd also like to think that if promotion is achieved in year 1 then the repayment of the loan can commence earlier as income rises. The longer we go, the more likely pledge numbers are b to drop. If this then potentially extends the handover then it's a risk. Like I say, I pledged with full intention of it being a long term commitment. But there will be people who want to pay their share to secure ownership then step back. Using their cash to pay player wages wouldn't be my preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 That's not true. Alex Mackie said the funds would also provide additional ongoing income. I was at a Q&A session at the Gorgie Suite where Ian Murray said that once ownership had been delivered then they would look at financing other projects, e.g. the Academy, but not to use the funds for day to day running of the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 To clarify, I am not bothered about the order. The point is that this wasn't the sales pitch. The sales pitch wasn't specific and there is no point to be discussed IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) To clarify, I am not bothered about the order. The point is that this wasn't the sales pitch. Thats quite a high level of pedancy, and I am not sure if it is entirely accurate. If you read what FOH actually say on the documents that matter ie the member agreement. The FOH website also makes it clear that the situation that the club is in can be fast moving and subject to change Edited February 14, 2014 by Jammy T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Spackler Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I'm a bit late to this thread and don't have time for reading 10 pages in detail but FWIW 1 - The plan on Hearts' website has my full backing 2 - My monthly contribution to FoH is intended to be in perpetuity and not temporary. I want to own the Club with my fellow fans Forever. For all of my life Hearts have had perilous finances propped up by the support. We might as well formalise it and remove the uncertainty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 What happens if we stop our direct debits for any reason at all? Bad things. I suppose. Possibly. Who knows? It might actually keep them going if there was a threat to close the club down if I'm cynical about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balders Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/ann-budge-holding-detailed-review-of-hearts-staff-1-3306157 Prospective Hearts owner Ann Budge is currently conducting a detailed review of the club as she prepares to become chairwoman, including assessing every member of football and non-football staff. The millionaire Edinburgh businesswoman is keen to protect her investment after Foundation of Hearts confirmed she is bankrolling their ?2.5million takeover. This sounds very positive, I am delighted that she is already conducting such a detailed top to bottom review of the current strcuture and questioning current roles and assessing what will be required going forward. She sounds like exactly what is needed - years of experience in business and should hopefuly know how to put together and successfully chair a Board of Directors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Ok, so what happens if we decide not to provide the working capital? Some have said this is not what they signed up for, and I can understand why. Then we will have less working capital than assumed or we take longer to pay back ann. Or a comination of both. My assumptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Thats quite a high level of pedancy, and I am not sure if it is entirely accurate. If you read what FOH actually say on the documents that matter ie the member agreement. The FOH website also makes it clear that the situation that the club is in can be fast moving and subject to change Call it pedancy if you want but that is our role in this given that it is our money that is being spent. When Vlad was pissing his empire's money away your seethe was legendary but now it is your own money involved you are extremely blase about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego10 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I think it's explained in a post further back. When we come out of admin we will have neither cash in the bank nor credit line. We need this working capital to smooth over any bumps until we can start operating like a normal business again. If it's effectively a contingency budget, I have no issue with that. But it shouldn't have to be used unless in an emergency and if it isn't used then the transfer should be possible after year 2. Given we're in the situation we're in now because it's had to be a frying pan to fire transition for the last few transfers of ownership, I think in advance is the best time to raise these areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 If there's legitimate reasons for 3.8m additional working capital then they b definitely should explain them. I'd also like to think that if promotion is achieved in year 1 then the repayment of the loan can commence earlier as income rises. The longer we go, the more likely pledge numbers are b to drop. If this then potentially extends the handover then it's a risk. Like I say, I pledged with full intention of it being a long term commitment. But there will be people who want to pay their share to secure ownership then step back. Using their cash to pay player wages wouldn't be my preference. I'm sure they will explain the 3.8m, they'll have to. But given our football debts, lack of cash, lack of credit and need for some sort of protection buffer, I don't know if it seems like as excessive an amount as some seem to think it is. Mind you, I can't remember what the ball park figure was for projected income in lower division. Maybe someone else will? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alva-Jambo Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 It looks as if MS Budge's money is coming at a very important time, but she will take some role in the club. ALso as far as I am aware she is worth between ?40 and ?50M. So, IF at some point we needed a further injection there is some possibility? of further cash. Also she is one of us, and a supporter , not a foreign person coming in. How the sum has risen to ?6.5Million however I find confusing to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I was at a Q&A session at the Gorgie Suite where Ian Murray said that once ownership had been delivered then they would look at financing other projects, e.g. the Academy, but not to use the funds for day to day running of the club. A good way to use additional ongoing income. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboGraham Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Does her daughter post on here??? Bloomin' hope not....after ten pages of this I would be wondering what I had let my Mum get herself into...!!! I honestly feel some satisfaction that it is not 100% 'fan power' from day one; we need a safe, secure transition period. Given the incredible range of views, priorities and expectations on this thread alone I think we are all going to need a few lessons on strategy, business planning and goal setting before any of us get anywhere near the FOH or Football Club boardroom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) Call it pedancy if you want but that is our role in this given that it is our money that is being spent. When Vlad was pissing his empire's money away your seethe was legendary but now it is your own money involved you are extremely blase about it. Not blase Its all perfectly clear and transparent to me - you asked me to look at the FOH website. I did. I am happy. I see nothing on the website which supports your argument. And I wasnt bothered about Vlad pissing his money away (although none of it appeared to be his), or money that he might otherwise have illegally procured for that matter, I was angry about his pissing away of the clubs status, dignity, solvency and ultimately its place in the SPL. Edited February 14, 2014 by Jammy T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balders Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I'd like to know why extra working capital takes precedence over transfer of ownership? The primary goal of the DDs should be to secure ownership. That protects FoH against a medium-long term drop in pledges. Why given we will still bring in ST and other money, are we providing extra funding for a budget that hasn't yet been set? Per FOH tweet this morning "Working Capital does not mean spending spree, it is plugging existing funding gap, paying football debt, and supporting shortfalls." We are going of run out of money in April, so how to we address this if we don't use the donations? We could sell season tickets and use this to plug the shortfall until the summer? - what happens when this money runs out half way thorough next season, we will always be chasing our tail as we have been for the past few seasons, selling season tickets earlier and earlier to plug shortfalls. The club has close to zero cash, no credit facilites - we badly need working capital and the proposal outlined by FOH seems entirely sensible. Yes in an ideal world we could repay the debt straight away and accelerate full fan ownership but the club is in such a perilous position that this is just not possible. Using the donations gives us an opportunity to get our heads above water and create a more solid base to move forward on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I must be missing something here. When BDO invited bids, the FoH submitted a bid of ?2.5 million for the CVA and more for working capital (I forget the exact number but it was between ?3 and 4 million). This bid was successful and was eventually accepted. Now people are surprised when FoH say that there's a need for ?3.8 million of working capital. I wouldn't mind knowing a bit more about what that's to be spent on, but it really shouldn't be a surprise to folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adi Dassler Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I was at a Q&A session at the Gorgie Suite where Ian Murray said that once ownership had been delivered then they would look at financing other projects, e.g. the Academy, but not to use the funds for day to day running of the club. That was definitely said that night as I was also there. It was stated on more than one occassion. I am not too concerned at the moment as I am sure there will be an explanation to follow. But the goalposts have been moved here. No denying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1874robbo Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Without this injection of money from mrs budge we wouldn't have any club to discuss!! And that I'm afraid is the truth, there was no other white knight coming to the rescue. Liquidation would have been inevitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shug73 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 From FOH twitter about 10 mins ago: [bIDCO]: One or two asking (fair) questions re ?1.4m x2 years. This is not to overspend, but to cover shortfall AND build cash reserves. This is entirely similar to clubs like @MotherwellFC who are working to ensure there is always cash in the bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norfolk and Chance Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I must be missing something here. When BDO invited bids, the FoH submitted a bid of ?2.5 million for the CVA and more for working capital (I forget the exact number but it was between ?3 and 4 million). This bid was successful and was eventually accepted. Now people are surprised when FoH say that there's a need for ?3.8 million of working capital. I wouldn't mind knowing a bit more about what that's to be spent on, but it really shouldn't be a surprise to folks. Glad you said this. My thoughts too. The foh bid specified 2 million for cva and 3.75million for working capital. Why are people surprised? http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/hearts/232973-who-is-bidding-for-hearts-three-groups-vie-for-tynecastle-takeover/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 its a meh from me, frankly. I would rather Bidco just fronted the money then fanco stared repaying it from the pledges. I would even have been happier if the so far collected ?750k was used as working capital THEN started using the DD's to pay her back, At no point did I want someone fronting all the cash, then becoming chairperson, regardless of who it is. Too much power in one pair of hands frankly. And the "she's one of us and a succesful business person " chat is rubbish frankly So were Robinson, Deans and a whole host of others over the years. I would like a guarantee that the club is handed over entirely in 5 years max to the fans REGARDLESS of whether she has her money back thus ensuring there is no financial mis management over that period- and to encourage our new owner to keep things straight. Club ownership has turned more decent business people bat shit mental than her Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1874robbo Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Doctor jambo, you want her to hand over the club on 5 years regardless if she's been paid back her outlay or not? What planet are you on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Doctor jambo, you want her to hand over the club on 5 years regardless if she's been paid back her outlay or not? What planet are you on? Clearly a different one to the test of us... I'd rather sheikh mansour bought us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldar Hadzimehmedovic Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Is it too late to kybosh this "Queen" of Hearts shite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego10 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) From FOH twitter about 10 mins ago: [bIDCO]: One or two asking (fair) questions re ?1.4m x2 years. This is not to overspend, but to cover shortfall AND build cash reserves. This is entirely similar to clubs like @MotherwellFC who are working to ensure there is always cash in the bank. see I'm happy enough with that in principle. I'd just like the earlier transfer to be an option if finances allow. Edited February 14, 2014 by Diego10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasavallan Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 For me I have been given the change to contribute to the club that I love in perpetuity. I will not be cancelling my DD. The full title is Heart of Midlothian Football Club and I wish to contribute to be a member of this club. Historically, the problem came when clubs became limited companies and were run for the benefit of their shareholders rather than the fans. Hearts' loyal fan base have kept this club alive and continue to do so. I do hope that FOH maintain their pledge to transfer the club into fans' ownership. The last thing that I want is for Ann Budge to be a sort of Tom Farmer figure making money out of her investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1874robbo Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Clearly a different one to the test of us... I'd rather sheikh mansour bought us All joking aside mate I'm staggered with the response to this!! We only had 10,000 fans willing to put their hands in their pockets to watch us in a semi final in Edinburgh yet she is to walk away from ?2.5 million wether she likes it or not?? Priceless!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bilel Mohsni Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I'll have a great big portion of "building cash reserves", thank you very much. Sensible idea, considering the potential challenges in our future regarding infrastructure. Colour me happy, content and impressed with our model for the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottish_chicP Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I don't understand the negative spin people are putting on this. JKB is annoying me today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Per FOH tweet this morning "Working Capital does not mean spending spree, it is plugging existing funding gap, paying football debt, and supporting shortfalls." We are going of run out of money in April, so how to we address this if we don't use the donations? We could sell season tickets and use this to plug the shortfall until the summer? - what happens when this money runs out half way thorough next season, we will always be chasing our tail as we have been for the past few seasons, selling season tickets earlier and earlier to plug shortfalls. The club has close to zero cash, no credit facilites - we badly need working capital and the proposal outlined by FOH seems entirely sensible. Yes in an ideal world we could repay the debt straight away and accelerate full fan ownership but the club is in such a perilous position that this is just not possible. Using the donations gives us an opportunity to get our heads above water and create a more solid base to move forward on. Absolutely spot on. I just can't see why others can't see this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 From FOH twitter about 10 mins ago: [bIDCO]: One or two asking (fair) questions re ?1.4m x2 years. This is not to overspend, but to cover shortfall AND build cash reserves. This is entirely similar to clubs like @MotherwellFC who are working to ensure there is always cash in the bank. This might be in response to the email I sent just over an hour ago. For the record, I am much happier with the proposed plan with the knowledge that the money will be used to build cash reserves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldar Hadzimehmedovic Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 People who see merely asking questions as "negative spin" or "an agenda" is quickly becoming the main reason why I'm not too disappointed to see fan ownership delayed a wee while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davie749 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 People who see merely asking questions as "negative spin" or "an agenda" is quickly becoming the main reason why I'm not too disappointed to see fan ownership delayed a wee while. Can't agree more, far too many wanna be accountants on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Doctor jambo, you want her to hand over the club on 5 years regardless if she's been paid back her outlay or not? What planet are you on? It does not perterb you in the slightest that we are moving from one owner with total power to another? And if the time frame moves again to 10 years- you still happy? Or, under her chairpersonage debts start to build up and transfer does not happen? You are not concerned by this AT ALL? It would not seem unraesonable that as the person - the sole director- with the power to make / break us that she guarantees that if she totally messes it up she gives the whole shoot and match over after a fixed period Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altyjambo Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 This might be in response to the email I sent just over an hour ago. For the record, I am much happier with the proposed plan with the knowledge that the money will be used to build cash reserves. Glad to hear it FF. There's a big difference between profit and loss and cashflow. Giving us some financial stability is vital over the next few years as our dear friends the Sevconians are ably demonstrating... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davie749 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 It does not perterb you in the slightest that we are moving from one owner with total power to another? And if the time frame moves again to 10 years- you still happy? Or, under her chairpersonage debts start to build up and transfer does not happen? You are not concerned by this AT ALL? It would not seem unraesonable that as the person - the sole director- with the power to make / break us that she guarantees that if she totally messes it up she gives the whole shoot and match over after a fixed period The only way it's gonna get messed up if people don't pay their DD's over the fixed period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigieboy Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 To be honest, such is my gratitude to the woman, we should really have a separate thread for people to convey this. You can argue about this or that but at the end of the day she has almost single handedly given us a way out of this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bilel Mohsni Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 This might be in response to the email I sent just over an hour ago. For the record, I am much happier with the proposed plan with the knowledge that the money will be used to build cash reserves. Totally. That puts a completely different perspective on things for me. This has to be forward thinking about the stadium, surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.