Scotland's Game

[busby1985]

Funny, my 16 year old daughter pretty much picked up on all of these points.

 

You've got to ask why the BBC would give Traynor a platform? He really must be the most discredited laptop loyal of them all.

Am sorry but 1980 something isn't long ago enough for that non sense to be acceptable. "Am no going back cause we've signed a catholic" is just as bad a statement as "was a watershed moment for Scottish football". Incredible that no one has ever properly challenged these clubs. Embarrassing scenes.

[Maroon Sailor]

Why would mercer have bought hibs just to keep the same fan base and lose 15k potential Edinburgh football fans?

Common sense tells you it would have become Edinburgh Utd in time.

It was a ridiculous idea and would have robbed both sets of fans of their clubs.

That is why many hearts fans were against it. Mercer was never as popular after it and his leaving was a relief in the end.

He saved our club but got too close to Murray. Hearts history has been kind to him though.

Hibs were heading down the toilet, Mercer's idea was to have a one club city to take on the Old Firm

[busby1985]

What about the Rangers fan in the pub ?

 

" I'll never go to Ibrox again "

 

" Why ? "

 

" Cos they signed a Catholic " !

Incredible scenes.

 

My dad used to tell me a story about being stuck in the Cameron House hotel with the Scotland squad and how they keeped him up most of the night with the "party songs". I never really used to believe him but that footage has pretty much proved him right. Unreal.

[luckydug]

Why would mercer have bought hibs just to keep the same fan base and lose 15k potential Edinburgh football fans?

 

Common sense tells you it would have become Edinburgh Utd in time.

 

It was a ridiculous idea and would have robbed both sets of fans of their clubs.

 

That is why many hearts fans were against it. Mercer was never as popular after it and his leaving was a relief in the end.

 

He saved our club but got too close to Murray. Hearts history has been kind to him though.

 

Then he would have lost 20k Hearts fans.

Hearts history was kind to him because he deserved it . No Mercer would have meant NO Hearts. 

It was a disgrace the way the fans turned against WM all orchestrated by that unspeakable pie salesman. The pie man played the fans like a fiddle and look what happened.

[SwindonJambo]

Andy Goram turned into the reasoned and balanced individual he is today as a consequence of Wattie's dressing room. I'm sure the old traitor is very proud creating that type of spirit amongst his boys.

In fairness Goram was a bit of plum even in his early career at Oldham. He always was just the type of person who could easily be sucked into Rangers' odious shite.

 

I thought it was OF Centric and I expected it to be. With such a fawning slavering media, the Sectarian Sisters will never be properly called to account as they should be. I will still watch the remaining episodes though.

[i wish jj was my dad]

Am sorry but 1980 something isn't long ago enough for that non sense to be acceptable. "Am no going back cause we've signed a catholic" is just as bad a statement as "was a watershed moment for Scottish football". Incredible that no one has ever properly challenged these clubs. Embarrassing scenes.

I'm no sure if we're on the same wavelength here.  I'm absolutely ashamed that this type of behaviour was ever considered acceptable in my lifetime (born 73) and is still not being seriously challenged today. My wee yin has practically no interest in football but is really interested in our culture and finds it incredible that the scenes mentioned are not historical talking points.

[D4nny_]

Just catching up on it the now.

 

That Hibs television advert was gold

[Maroon Sailor]

In fairness Gorman was a bit of plum even in his early career at Oldham. He always was just the type of person who could easily be sucked into Rangers' odious shite.

I thought it was OF Centric and I expected it to be. With such a fawning slavering media, the Sectarian Sisters will never be properly called to account as they should be. I will still watch the remaining episodes though.

Celtic didn't get a mention until after Rangers, Dundee Utd, Hearts and Hibs. They basically started it in chronological order from 1987 until " the rebels " won

[Maroon Sailor]

Just catching up on it the now.

That Hibs television advert was gold

That fan was slimmer than Joe Harper

[Jambof3tornado]

Terry Butcher interview was decent. Very open about having to step back and look at what type of person he'd become.

[i wish jj was my dad]

In fairness Gorman was a bit of plum even in his early career at Oldham. He always was just the type of person who could easily be sucked into Rangers' odious shite.

 

I thought it was OF Centric and I expected it to be. With such a fawning slavering media, the Sectarian Sisters will never be properly called to account as they should be. I will still watch the remaining episodes though.

I think that was my point. The old traitor is lauded as some kind of legend in this country but he encouraged a culture and fostered the conditions that helped the likes of Goram, Gascoigne and Charlie Miller turn into the men they are today.  

 

The team that drinks together wins together ethos was never really true in Rangers case.  They won trophies because of their massive budget. Despite their budget they failed in Europe because they lacked the professionalism of teams with similar budgets. 

 

I'd love to see the BBC probe into that. 

[Diadora Van Basten]

I thought it was a good programme and pretty much how I remember that period.

 

The interesting will be next period, will the admit that Rangers success was built on an illegal tax scam or will they try to pin it on Craig Whyte.

[mugwump]

Terry Butcher interview was decent. Very open about having to step back and look at what type of person he'd become.

 

I think the same could be said for 

many  Hearts supporters on the weekend when we were playing Celtic/Hibs, but were nothing like that the rest of time. As he said. to my regret i include myself in this, many were sucked into the 'party songs'.

[Irufushi]

Enjoyed it.

 

 

'the rebels have won'

[LeftBack]

I went to a shareholders meeting at that time and Wallace Mercer said, "the badge won't change, the colours won't change and the name won't change."

Correct! It wasnt a merger it was a takeover. Remember when SKY and British Satellite Broadcasting merged - for a while it was BSKYB - it's SKY now...Hibs fans were right - we were trying to buy them and shut them down. Ironic as we owned them then as now.

[Maroon Sailor]

I thought it was a good programme and pretty much how I remember that period.

The interesting will be next period, will the admit that Rangers success was built on an illegal tax scam or will they try to pin it on Craig Whyte.

It's already on Whyte if the trailer for next week is anything to go by

 

" If the answer was Whyte then I'd love to know what the question was "

[LeftBack]

Terry Butcher interview was decent. Very open about having to step back and look at what type of person he'd become.

Did he mention his restaurant and the fact he deliberately set the price of his steak at ?16.90?

[Placid Casual]

The team that drinks together wins together ethos was never really true in Rangers case. They won trophies because of their massive budget. Despite their budget they failed in Europe because they lacked the professionalism of teams with similar budgets.

 

I'd love to see the BBC probe into that.

Bang on there. I've heard both Goram and Smith quote the "team that drinks together wins together" line, neglecting to mention that they were being pumped in Europe (for the reasons you state). I would have been livid with that if I were a Rangers fan back then.

[busby1985]

I'm no sure if we're on the same wavelength here. I'm absolutely ashamed that this type of behaviour was ever considered acceptable in my lifetime (born 73) and is still not being seriously challenged today. My wee yin has practically no interest in football but is really interested in our culture and finds it incredible that the scenes mentioned are not historical talking points.

Sorry bud, we are on the same wave length. That wasn't a go at your or that. Was just more of me emphasising how ridiculous the whole thing was.

[LeftBack]

Incredible scenes.

 

My dad used to tell me a story about being stuck in the Cameron House hotel with the Scotland squad and how they keeped him up most of the night with the "party songs". I never really used to believe him but that footage has pretty much proved him right. Unreal.

I have an Only an Excuse book which came out early 90s - was reading it on the toilet the other night and was genuinely surprised at just how much almost all the jokes were based around Catholics v Protestants (sorry I mean Celtic v Rangers). And not in an ironic way but almost glorifying the divide. You still see remnants in the awful Hogmanay shows now. Society has moved on a little - Scottish football is still stuck in the dark ages.

[busby1985]

I have an Only an Excuse book which came out early 90s - was reading it on the toilet the other night and was genuinely surprised at just how much almost all the jokes were based around Catholics v Protestants (sorry I mean Celtic v Rangers). And not in an ironic way but almost glorifying the divide. You still see remnants in the awful Hogmanay shows now. Society has moved on a little - Scottish football is still stuck in the dark ages.

Actual crazy. I can't stand only an excuse. Trying to laugh off an actual plague as something light hearted. The other day on my time hop on Facebook of brought up an article by Michael Gannon (SP). He basically said that if you come play fives with him and his mates you'll be called a "dirty orange bad word" or "a Fenian" but it's cool cause it's "banter".

[Shaggy2]

I think the same could be said for 

many  Hearts supporters on the weekend when we were playing Celtic/Hibs, but were nothing like that the rest of time. As he said. to my regret i include myself in this, many were sucked into the 'party songs'.

Have to agree with this. I sang songs back then that I find pretty despicable these days. Perhaps it's an age thing? Even found myself arguing with a muppet who tried to start a 'Big Jock Knew' type song at the recent Celtic game. Leave the paedophile obsession to Hibs/Rangers. 

 

On another point, I actually thought Rangers over-achieved in Europe. No way were they anywhere near as good as Marseille, AC Milan etc at that time, but they came damn close to upsetting them.

[i wish jj was my dad]

Sorry bud, we are on the same wave length. That wasn't a go at your or that. Was just more of me emphasising how ridiculous the whole thing was.

No apology necessary.  If anything it's my prickliness at the whole sectarian shite and my wee yin struggling to get her head round the WATP / rebels stuff being shown on TV without any hint that it's not acceptable. It would have been good if they had asked Chic Young why he didn't comment or challenge Walter instead of lapping it up.

[D4nny_]

Just finished watching that and I must admit I really enjoyed it. Look forward to the next episode!

[i wish jj was my dad]

Have to agree with this. I sang songs back then that I find pretty despicable these days. Perhaps it's an age thing? Even found myself arguing with a muppet who tried to start a 'Big Jock Knew' type song at the recent Celtic game. Leave the paedophile obsession to Hibs/Rangers. 

 

On another point, I actually thought Rangers over-achieved in Europe. No way were they anywhere near as good as Marseille, AC Milan etc at that time, but they came damn close to upsetting them.

TBF, I don't agree. At that time, I always felt Scottish clubs could match anybody and as much as I hated them Rangers had some cracking players at that time. Only a couple of years before we should have knocked Bayern out and they had the backbone of a world cup winning team.  

 

The deterioration of our football since then is terrifying.

[Stephane Grappelli]

Have to agree with this. I sang songs back then that I find pretty despicable these days. Perhaps it's an age thing? Even found myself arguing with a muppet who tried to start a 'Big Jock Knew' type song at the recent Celtic game. Leave the paedophile obsession to Hibs/Rangers.

 

On another point, I actually thought Rangers over-achieved in Europe. No way were they anywhere near as good as Marseille, AC Milan etc at that time, but they came damn close to upsetting them.

Aye, I mind their run to the final in 92/93. Some good performances but a hell of a lot of luck along the way too. They weren't in the same class as Marseille and Milan.

 

Also, the programme showed Laudrup scoring at Tynie but we actually won that game 2-1. Biased cucking funts.

[Maroon Sailor]

Lots of things changed Scottish football

 

Television

Hillsborough

Bosman Ruling

Below average foreigners flooding squads

SPL

Greed

[Hugh Phamism]

Rangers players getting sucked in to singing Dundee, Hamilton, feck the pope and the Vatican

My good mate Stuart Munro right in front belting out the songs. He was never schooled in the Rangers way, but grew to be 'wan 'o them'.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Shaggy2]

TBF, I don't agree. At that time, I always felt Scottish clubs could match anybody and as much as I hated them Rangers had some cracking players at that time. Only a couple of years before we should have knocked Bayern out and they had the backbone of a world cup winning team.  

 

The deterioration of our football since then is terrifying.

No worries. I base my assertion on the fact that I was converting VHS to DVD for someone a year or so back. One of the games was Rangers v Marseille (2-2) and for 78 minutes (googled the goal time) Marseille pissed all over them and it was only a goal out of nothing, then Rangers team spirit that pulled them back. I agree we could well have ko'd Bayern though, and the deterioration of our game has been frightening. However, I don't believe we could match them consistently, as I don't believe Rangers were as good as the clubs I mentioned, although they COULD have beaten them in a one off tie. It's been outlined elsewhere today (on the Celtic CL draw thread) that football as a whole was all the better for that back then.  

[Shooter McGavin]

Next weeks episode looks more interesting. Hopefully thats them got all the sectarian crap out the way.

[LeftBack]

TBF, I don't agree. At that time, I always felt Scottish clubs could match anybody and as much as I hated them Rangers had some cracking players at that time. Only a couple of years before we should have knocked Bayern out and they had the backbone of a world cup winning team.  

 

The deterioration of our football since then is terrifying.

I totally agree...BUT...money has played a significant part. Back when we played Bayern it was a relatively level playing field - yes there was a gulf but it has grown exponentially since the CL. Aberdeen beat Real Madrid in a European final - Im sure the wage and transfer difference was probably 3x (at least). Now it must be 300x (at least) 

[Shaggy2]

Aye, I mind their run to the final in 92/93. Some good performances but a hell of a lot of luck along the way too. They weren't in the same class as Marseille and Milan.

 

Also, the programme showed Laudrup scoring at Tynie but we actually won that game 2-1. Biased cucking funts.

Haha, I moaned to the wife about that as well!

 

Tommy McLean pumped Rangers twice, beat Hibs and beat Celtic away in 1995. In fact, just checked and he was unbeaten against Celtic in 1994/95. He must have been woeful elsewhere because I remember him with zero fondness at all. Maybe it was being pumped by Hibs three times that done for him? Nothing changes!

[Stephane Grappelli]

Alan Bisset "It was on in the eye for Celtic, even Catholics wanted to sign for Rangers now."

 

There was me all these years thinking that it was Rangers who wouldn't sign Catholics, not the other way round. What a trumpet.

[Tazio]

Can anyone remember what Mo Johnston was like in his season for us?

 

Offside mainly if I remember correctly.

[Stephane Grappelli]

Haha, I moaned to the wife about that as well!

 

Tommy McLean pumped Rangers twice, beat Hibs and beat Celtic away in 1995. In fact, just checked and he was unbeaten against Celtic in 1994/95. He must have been woeful elsewhere because I remember him with zero fondness at all. Maybe it was being pumped by Hibs three times that done for him? Nothing changes!

Aye, me too. He had a great record against the uglies but not much else. 2 wins and 2 draws v Celtic, 2 wins (one of which was in the Cup) and a draw v Rangers. His derby record was utter piss though and he nearly got us relegated!

 

He also signed Colin Cramb...

[i wish jj was my dad]

No worries. I base my assertion on the fact that I was converting VHS to DVD for someone a year or so back. One of the games was Rangers v Marseille (2-2) and for 78 minutes (googled the goal time) Marseille pissed all over them and it was only a goal out of nothing, then Rangers team spirit that pulled them back. I agree we could well have ko'd Bayern though, and the deterioration of our game has been frightening. However, I don't believe we could match them consistently, as I don't believe Rangers were as good as the clubs I mentioned, although they COULD have beaten them. It's been outlined elsewhere today (on the Celtic CL draw thread) that football as a whole was all the better for that back then.  

If you watched the games recently will have a better recollection than me and I do remember that huddy Nisbet rescuing the Huns in one game with the last kick of the ball but from memory they deserved to beat Leeds and were good enough to win their group.  

[Stephane Grappelli]

Offside mainly if I remember correctly.

He had some good games, I sometimes felt he was a move or two ahead of some of our team at the time.

 

He got the winner at Partick in the Cup when we had JC sent off, setting us up for the Wayne Foster game. He also scored both goals in a really important 2-0 win at Dens.

[Expert on the subject]

Awfull peice of work regurgitation of the same old faces spouting the same old weegie pish lots of black and white footage of glasow the journalism we endure is a big part of the problem and negative perceptions

[i wish jj was my dad]

I totally agree...BUT...money has played a significant part. Back when we played Bayern it was a relatively level playing field - yes there was a gulf but it has grown exponentially since the CL. Aberdeen beat Real Madrid in a European final - Im sure the wage and transfer difference was probably 3x (at least). Now it must be 300x (at least) 

I couldn't agree more about the money but the quality of player is nowhere near as good today.  

 

 In 1986 we had some really top players missing out on travelling to Mexico. Mo Johnston, Alan Hansen and Craig Levein were probably good enough for the England squad and didn't travel with Scotland. I would imagine that guys like Sandy Clark, Gerry McCabe and Jim Duffy would be good enough to play for Scotland now. That's the drop in standard. 

 

To put that in perspective, I reckon that up until 1990 we could pick a team of Scots that could win a European medal - between 80-86 we probably had 20 odd players who did. 

[Shaggy2]

If you watched the games recently will have a better recollection than me and I do remember that huddy Nisbet rescuing the Huns in one game with the last kick of the ball but from memory they deserved to beat Leeds and were good enough to win their group.  

Totally agree re Leeds, and they played very well against Marseille away (although that's a distant memory) but I think over the two games Marseille deservedly had the better head to head. Can't comment on Marseille's games v Brugge (who Nisbet scored against) or CSKA Moscow (had to google that).

 

The last eight of the CL (the group stages) are almost unrecognisable by today's standards...Marseille, Rangers, Brugge, CSKA Moscow and AC Milan, Gothenburg, FC Porto and PSV Eindhoven were the two groups in finishing order. I only recall seeing Brugge, Porto and PSV in today's draw and I'd wager none (Porto at a push) will see the last eight.

[LeftBack]

He had some good games, I sometimes felt he was a move or two ahead of some of our team at the time.

 

He got the winner at Partick in the Cup when we had JC sent off, setting us up for the Wayne Foster game. He also scored both goals in a really important 2-0 win at Dens.

Absolutely agree! Mo Jo was many things - one of which was a tremendously gifted footballer with an incredible football brain. I have said many times that I dont remember a player who was so 'better' than the players we had at the time - his passing and movement was two or three classes above what we had. He didnt make an impact at Hearts but that was because of the players around him rather than his actual work rate or ability.

[LeftBack]

I couldn't agree more about the money but the quality of player is nowhere near as good today.  

 

 In 1986 we had some really top players missing out on travelling to Mexico. Mo Johnston, Alan Hansen and Craig Levein were probably good enough for the England squad and didn't travel with Scotland. I would imagine that guys like Sandy Clark, Gerry McCabe and Jim Duffy would be good enough to play for Scotland now. That's the drop in standard. 

 

To put that in perspective, I reckon that up until 1990 we could pick a team of Scots that could win a European medal - between 80-86 we probably had 20 odd players who did. 

You are right - Scottish football always punched above its weight in terms of the players it produced and indeed the results it achieved. The blame lies at the SFA for not moving with the times and implementing initiatives that has brought success for countries such as Sweden, Iceland, Denmark ie some foresight in instigating some radical policies (investment in coaches and pitches as well as things such as not having over 30s in their teams so they can develop over 5+ years). We are so short sighted - yes Craig Brown was last successful manager but he did it a short-term gain.

[i wish jj was my dad]

Absolutely agree! Mo Jo was many things - one of which was a tremendously gifted footballer with an incredible football brain. I have said many times that I dont remember a player who was so 'better' than the players we had at the time - his passing and movement was two or three classes above what we had. He didnt make an impact at Hearts but that was because of the players around him rather than his actual work rate or ability.

Spot on about MJ. He really was different class. I can recall one game in particular at Rugby Park when he looked like an exasperated parent trying to explain how he was timing his runs to John Millar and Tosh. If my memory serves Hoggy got a bad one that night. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

You are right - Scottish football always punched above its weight in terms of the players it produced and indeed the results it achieved. The blame lies at the SFA for not moving with the times and implementing initiatives that has brought success for countries such as Sweden, Iceland, Denmark ie some foresight in instigating some radical policies (investment in coaches and pitches as well as things such as not having over 30s in their teams so they can develop over 5+ years). We are so short sighted - yes Craig Brown was last successful manager but he did it a short-term gain.

Just one example that for me that sums up where Scottish football went wrong .

 

Neil McCann did not  travel to France.  Paw Broon did take Simon Donnelly but brought on Tosh when we were 2 down to Morocco to get behind them.

[Stephane Grappelli]

Absolutely agree! Mo Jo was many things - one of which was a tremendously gifted footballer with an incredible football brain. I have said many times that I dont remember a player who was so 'better' than the players we had at the time - his passing and movement was two or three classes above what we had. He didnt make an impact at Hearts but that was because of the players around him rather than his actual work rate or ability.

Cheers mate! To think that Tommy McLean gave him away to Falkirk, with some cash thrown in, for Colin Cramb! It beggars belief.

[Kinkster]

The programme missed the main reason Scottish football began to struggle.

Scottish banks being taken over by international companies who started to ask why all these insolvent football clubs had been given massive overdrafts and started calling the debts in.

That was more important than thatcher and the fall of industries.

Oh and one more point..why didn't souness get a Nobel peace prize, he came out of that hour a saint.

Which Scottish Banks were taken over ? Think you need to take a deep breath.

[Mikey1874]

Souness....rangers could match man utd etc for transfer fees and wages...

 

Aye right.

Seemed the case at the time - EPL only started 1992. English league wasn't that strong.

[millerjames398]

Still had class but his best days were well behind him

I remember his winner v Patrick in the s.c. cup at firhill, it set up the super Wayne Derby v them at Easter rd, total bedlam in the shed they had that ran up the sideline, great day.

[Footballfirst]

Another thing to remember at the time of Rangers v Marsaille is that clubs were restricted to three foreign players they could field in a game.

 

Against Marseille at Ibrox they had Trevor Steven, Alexei Mikhailichenko and Mark Hateley

 

Earlier in the season v Leeds they had Trevor Steven, Peter Huistra and Mark Hateley in one game and Dale Gordon, Mikhailichenko and Hateley in the other.

[LeftBack]

Spot on about MJ. He really was different class. I can recall one game in particular at Rugby Park when he looked like an exasperated parent trying to explain how he was timing his runs to John Millar and Tosh. If my memory serves Hoggy got a bad one that night. 

Great analogy! Im like that when I coach my youngsters - not that I was ever that good but I always the say it doesnt matter what you are like with your feet it is how good your football brain is - and MJ had it. So did Rudi and I think - hope - so does Tony Watt.