Jonathon Wilsson - Should a coach use tactics that are unsuitable for his players?

[CMc]

Guardian

[Drylaw Hearts]

The answer is no.

 

[Jamdub]

The answer is, of course..........

 

[portobellojambo1]

The answer is no.

 

 

Indeed it is, and it doesn't matter if the club is Internazionale of Milan or Heart of Midlothian. You don't impose a style of play on players that aren't used to it, and in some cases will never get used to it. You establish what they, your squad, are good at and endeavour to develop those strengths to the next level.

[Gambo]

Tactics as in 4-5-1, 4-4-2 etc then it should be able to be changed at training and should be able to be adapted quickly by even the most basic of player.

 

Tactics as in asking well paid football players to be able to pass and control a ball to/from a collegue should be pre requisite to signing a professional contract.

[desmondo]

Quick glance at this thread and i thought it meant attacking the away Manager

[Groatallar]

I thought it was about Hearts . After all we have a coach who is trying to get us to pass the ball a lot more but that's beyond some of them - i.e. Zaliukas

[Tazio]

It becomes a catch 22 situation. A club, if getting a new manager, needs to get one who suits the players, the same players who played for the previously unsuccessful manager. Or if they want to change the style they need a new manager and a new first team squad.

 

So the risk is if you have limited players you end up having to constantly get managers who can work with limited resources meaning you never really improve.

[peebles jambo]

I thought it was about Hearts . After all we have a coach who is trying to get us to pass the ball a lot more but that's beyond some of them - i.e. Zaliukas

i'm afraid he's not alone

[Rudy T]

I thought it was about Hearts . After all we have a coach who is trying to get us to pass the ball a lot more but that's beyond some of them - i.e. Zaliukas

 

To be fair, it's not the passing that's a problem it's passing to a Hearts player thats beyond them, still that's maybe the training plan for after christmas.......get the basic's of passing first, then move on to passing to each other and in pre-season we will work on pass and move, hopefully shooting practice is not too far away after that.......

[linkin- hearts]

But surely the manager, who obviously explained his ideas for the team at his job interview, should be given time and games in which to try out his ideas, unless things are going horribly wrong altho i still think its too early to tell yet?

[topcat]

It becomes a catch 22 situation. A club, if getting a new manager, needs to get one who suits the players, the same players who played for the previously unsuccessful manager. Or if they want to change the style they need a new manager and a new first team squad.

 

So the risk is if you have limited players you end up having to constantly get managers who can work with limited resources meaning you never really improve.

 

Best post so far

 

There obviously needs to be some flexibility and if a coach can only work with one game plan then that's a problem in itself. Even if you build youre system around the players you have.

 

We spent the tail end of last season watching Hearts play a style that had been built around Kevin Kyle without Kevin Kyle because Jefferies didn't seem to have a plan B and none of the other stand-in Kyles were capable of doint the big man's job properly

 

At the time of Jefferies' dimissal I thought, along with many others, that it would have been better to either give Jefferies one more season or to have got rid of him before pre-season started as a sentimental type I favoured the former option as opposed to ther ruthlessness of the other.

 

As it happened Paulo Sergio is having to overhaul the club while engaged in competition a bit like those team medics in the tour de france who apply germolene while leaning out of a car window travelling at 40kph.

 

He's actively avoiding consistent team selection in favour of experimentation. Never mind choosing tactics suitable for his players he's still not sure what players to select.

 

Hopefully we'll look back on this time later as a "small step backwards that allowed us to take a big step forward" but maybe we'll look back and say "what ever happened to Paulo Sergio, shame it never really worked out for him here"

 

We'll find out soon enough

[Dr. Bapswent]

Should a professional football player be able to adapt to different styles of play?

 

The answer is yes.

[Neilson's Shank]

Good thread, we will see over the developing season

[Rudy T]

Best post so far

 

There obviously needs to be some flexibility and if a coach can only work with one game plan then that's a problem in itself. Even if you build youre system around the players you have.

 

We spent the tail end of last season watching Hearts play a style that had been built around Kevin Kyle without Kevin Kyle because Jefferies didn't seem to have a plan B and none of the other stand-in Kyles were capable of doint the big man's job properly

 

At the time of Jefferies' dimissal I thought, along with many others, that it would have been better to either give Jefferies one more season or to have got rid of him before pre-season started as a sentimental type I favoured the former option as opposed to ther ruthlessness of the other.

 

As it happened Paulo Sergio is having to overhaul the club while engaged in competition a bit like those team medics in the tour de france who apply germolene while leaning out of a car window travelling at 40kph.

 

He's actively avoiding consistent team selection in favour of experimentation. Never mind choosing tactics suitable for his players he's still not sure what players to select.

 

Hopefully we'll look back on this time later as a "small step backwards that allowed us to take a big step forward" but maybe we'll look back and say "what ever happened to Paulo Sergio, shame it never really worked out for him here"

 

We'll find out soon enough

 

The key is to give PS time, not so much time with the first team but time with the youth set up. Allow him to implement his style on the younsters so they are ready for the first team - and therefore less need for a complete overhaul of the first team squad.

 

Lets be brutally honest, Black, Obua, Mrowiec, Stevenson are not and will never be pass and move type players. If you put all four together you might have something resembling a decent footballer but as individuals they cannot play a fast attcking style of football.

 

The answer lies in the u19's I think we have seen enough of these guys to suggest they are a new breed of footballer and far more intelligent than the first teamers - but they lack experience and its a results business !

 

It all boils down to the lack of a reserve league - we need that back to take these guys up a level and get them ready. I hope PS has the balls to play the younsters in the League Cup, and not bow to the pressure of "going far in a cup competition is a must" chat that goes on around this place.

[southside1874]

It becomes a catch 22 situation. A club, if getting a new manager, needs to get one who suits the players, the same players who played for the previously unsuccessful manager. Or if they want to change the style they need a new manager and a new first team squad.

 

So the risk is if you have limited players you end up having to constantly get managers who can work with limited resources meaning you never really improve.

 

Like Hibs per chance

[southside1874]

Should a professional football player be able to adapt to different styles of play?

 

The answer is yes.

 

They should be able to adapt but there are simple parameters. Fitness and intelligence. The capability to concentrate and the level of concentration for any given length of time. The simple punt up the field and the forward chase the ball does not require high levels of concentration. If you want the players to adapt to different formations depending on different circumstances requires more concentration and the players around to counteract the individual players strengths and weaknesses. If a player gets tired he will lose concentration.

 

Riordan was a classic example of being allowed to do as he wished under Mowbray, yet at celtic he had to play a role in the team.

 

To a great extent Fergie trained his youngsters at man utd to achieve this and it worked for him when they came up to the first team.

 

Get the players at U17 level to start playing the intelligent game and it will reap rewards in 5 or 6 years time.

 

High intense training brings about a better player in the long term. Players have to work for each other and tired players don't work for each other.

 

Its finding the balance and hard work helps the manager find the right balance.

[JamboAl]

Never heard of this writer.

Usually when a new manager/coach comes in it is because the previous manager and/or his tactics were not working effectively so I would have thought most fans would expect/demand change.

The players themselves would probably realise change was inevitable and one would therefore expect them to be flexible. That is what they are paid for.

For the manager's part, it would be folly to ask players to do something beyond their ability. Any major changes would have to be done in stages unless some well-heeled owner provided the funds to buy players who immediately fit the manager's master plan.

In a nutshell I think common sense needs to be applied all round.

In our case I think Sergio is simply asking the players to play a more passing type of game which as time goes on is likely to be speeded up. He is not asking for the moon and if he is right he will be a Gorgie hero. If he is wrong he will be sacked - as simple as that.

[CMc]

The key is to give PS time, not so much time with the first team but time with the youth set up. Allow him to implement his style on the younsters so they are ready for the first team - and therefore less need for a complete overhaul of the first team squad.

 

Lets be brutally honest, Black, Obua, Mrowiec, Stevenson are not and will never be pass and move type players. If you put all four together you might have something resembling a decent footballer but as individuals they cannot play a fast attcking style of football.

 

The answer lies in the u19's I think we have seen enough of these guys to suggest they are a new breed of footballer and far more intelligent than the first teamers - but they lack experience and its a results business !

 

It all boils down to the lack of a reserve league - we need that back to take these guys up a level and get them ready. I hope PS has the balls to play the younsters in the League Cup, and not bow to the pressure of "going far in a cup competition is a must" chat that goes on around this place.

 

I was thinking along similar lines recently. I wonder if PS is keeping the young 'uns (not necessarily just the U-19s but also the young lads on the fringe of the main squad) out of the firing line until he can bring them up ready to play the style he is looking for and in a physical condition to compete in our league.

 

Never heard of this writer.

 

He's good. Usually does in-depth tactics articles along the lines of what they print in the Italian football papers.

 

These ones are quite interesting:My link My linkMy linkMy link

[Kramer]

Never heard of this writer.

Usually when a new manager/coach comes in it is because the previous manager and/or his tactics were not working effectively so I would have thought most fans would expect/demand change.

The players themselves would probably realise change was inevitable and one would therefore expect them to be flexible. That is what they are paid for.

For the manager's part, it would be folly to ask players to do something beyond their ability. Any major changes would have to be done in stages unless some well-heeled owner provided the funds to buy players who immediately fit the manager's master plan.

In a nutshell I think common sense needs to be applied all round.

In our case I think Sergio is simply asking the players to play a more passing type of game which as time goes on is likely to be speeded up. He is not asking for the moon and if he is right he will be a Gorgie hero. If he is wrong he will be sacked - as simple as that.

 

I completely agree with this.

[Big Moysey]

Very interesting thread and I have high hopes that PS is going to change our fortunes to the point that given 3 years I think we could seriously challenge the old firm(or what's left of them) If you look at the performances of young Scottish teams from u13's to u19's they consistently win trophies in European tournaments. Then as mentioned through no platform (reserve League) or that they are expected to change their game to fit the SPL they lose that edge. The other major factor is that SPL managers being under so much pressure, falsely favour mediocre older or foreign talent ahead of the youths. They invariably do not get a chance to continue development. Our future is giving a young team a chance with PS. Come on you Hearts

 

 

Going down down down with Billy Brown Brown Brown

[K1874M]

Should a professional football player be able to adapt to different styles of play?

 

The answer is yes.

Should we be changing the way we play during the season.....

 

 

The answer is no.

[Takeshi's Tynecastle]

I think the key for managers and players is that they should all be flexible. It is a squad game, and every game situation is different - different opposition styles, different weather conditions, injuries/suspensions to certain key players, etc.

 

For the manager, that requires him to have clear ideas about how he wants the team to play in different situations. And also to know the limitations of his players and how to compensate for them. This was what JJ failed to do in the absence of Kyle.

 

Sergio is in the unenviable position of having to assess his squad, try and get them playing a new and unfamiliar style, in a league he isn't familiar with himself; all during the season. He needs time, but we have an owner not renowned for giving managers that luxury.

 

It will be interesting what happens if/when he decides our players as a squad aren't capable of playing the way he wants. Does he stubbornly keep playing the same way in the hope they will learn (or because he isn't capable of / willing to change his style)? Does he bring in players in January? What if his style just isn't suited to the SPL?

 

He seems an intelligent guy, and I truly hope he will settle on a consistent team soon. Once he has done that we will see whether he is likely to take us forward or not. Fingers crossed.

[Takeshi's Tynecastle]

Should we be changing the way we play during the season.....

 

 

The answer is no.

 

Should we be changing our manager during the season? No.

 

But we have, and the new manager shouldn't try to play the way the previous manager did. Especially when it got him sacked.

 

Why bring in a new manager if not to change the way we play?

[Tiberius Stinkfinger]

I think PS has got it spot on trying to get the players he has regaining possession and keeping it. I also think its a lot easier to coach players in the basics of ball retention than trying to educate their minds.

As a team when we don't have the ball we look pretty clueless and unable to make the correct decisions about positioning or when and when not to commit to the tackle.

 

In short, we are a much better team with the ball than we will ever be without the ball and I think PS recognised this very early on.

[J.C 7]

For me, the topic title is an age old question to which sees most managers work in different ways. Some gaffers are quite happy to see what players are at their disposal and mould a side from that, others will demand a certain shape and tactics be adhered to. Who's right? No one IMO. That's then a managers ability to actually manage comes into play and to how they get their ideas across in the above ways of working.

 

Paulo Sergio has been given the Hearts job and can only be true to his own footballing beliefs, otherwise, why bother. Thats what was wrong with us before say Csaba, we didnt have a philosphy of playing as such, it was all about players who ultimately didnt know what they were doing because they didnt seem to be getting any clear direction. Okay, Csaba's football was boring but at least he had a belief and an idea of how to play the game, i thought JJ would try and be more expansive but it became so one dimensional it was dire. They both done as they seen fit and paid the consequences.

 

PS is the same, he's not asking players to do anything radical I dont think, just for players to think about it, be patient, dont throw the ball forward in hope. Why not be in control of the ball and the pace of the game.

 

Do we have the players to play PS's way, only to a limited extent and we def need a couple more ball players at least, even when we've not been great I think there's been a willingness to keep the ball a lot more (I wasnt at Caley so dont know if this happened there)

 

I think PS's main problem is that he wants patience and composure on the ball from our players which is fine, mentally composed but not physically, we still have to be up for the battle in a game. I think some of our players cant get the balance right. Either too many are composed and sluggish in possession or players run around at 100 miles per hour and play passes without thinking. We still need the graft and to play the ball at a decent enough tempo to break down opponents and not just amble about at walking pace not really going anywhere and which leads to complacency setting in.

 

Whose to say, given time (not that he'll get it!) that the inter coaches philosphy of how to play wouldnt work over time. Why appoint a coach to get rid of him just because results dont initially go their way, time is needed to allow managers to get their points across imo, i've never been a fan of firing coaches early doors, although at the top level I know a lot of money is at stake for clubs.