Footballfirst Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 http://www.mediafire.com/?paqbaen9ozn6zp7 Someone appears to have got hold of Martin Bains legal submission in his fight with Rangers for compensation following his sacking. Assuming the papers to be genuine, many of the things that have been speculated on previously seem to be confirmed. The big HMRC bill amounts to ?49M Future Season Ticket sales have been sold Creditors are not being paid. Tick tock indeed ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Mugabe Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Celtic minded Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bilel Mohsni Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Popcorn made, cushions plumped, feet up. This should be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboGuy Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I have just read the documents. There are a few typos, which is inevitable, and areas where the documents will be changed in discussion. However, as an Expert Witness, this Pleading looks wholly genuine to me! All I can say is - "Holy Administration, Batman!" If you read it with the action by Levy and Macrae to get a small bill paid in mind, and the fact that they actually had the delays in getting a piffling wee legal bill paid read into the Court records, there is a real sense that this house of cards is about to collapse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Gilbert Wauchope Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Popcorn made, cushions plumped, feet up. This should be fun. I predict at least 25 pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bilel Mohsni Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I also predict a big bun-fight where people are accused of being Hobos... I think someone will cry too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 So Mr Whyte is prepared to cover 15m of the tax liability, anymore and he Will let them go under. Their main assets won't cover the bill under forced sale but selling the ground ceases trading anyway. DOOMED!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 So Mr Whyte is prepared to cover 15m of the tax liability, anymore and he Will let them go under. Their main assets won't cover the bill under forced sale but selling the ground ceases trading anyway. DOOMED!!!!! The ?10M-?15M CW was prepared to fund, would probably have come from the CL money they were due to receive this year. Oops! It a pity that Malmo weren't in on CW's plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasavallan Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Celtic minded Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs I know for a fact that my taxman is. How did they manage to get passed the interview? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Her majesty. God save our gracious Queen! Haha nae luck huns! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboMarc Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 But they are Her Majesty's club are they not? They are special like no other! :stare: :greggy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davesmith Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 http://www.mediafire.com/?paqbaen9ozn6zp7 Someone appears to have got hold of Martin Bains legal submission in his fight with Rangers for compensation following his sacking. Assuming the papers to be genuine, many of the things that have been speculated on previously seem to be confirmed. The big HMRC bill amounts to ?49M Future Season Ticket sales have been sold Creditors are not being paid. Tick tock indeed ! Having read through it then it isn't as damning as it sounds. We all knew the HMRC case and the extent of it. No one is denying it not even Rangers. Bain like Whyte was fighting it so they must think they have some chance of winning or at least reducing the pay out. The ST money has been sold to a factor. There is absolutely nothing to say that it isn't sitting in an account ready for HMRC as suggested it would be. In fact it could be the ringfenced money. Some creditors aren't being paid but this happens as we know better than anyone. I doubt Bain will get near what he is claiming and probably a small payout for the breach of discliplinary process and lack of notice. The appendices would probably have been most telling but they are not there I still think HMRC will accept a pay off at some point. They would not get anywhere near their money through insolvency routes and whilst they have shown in the last few years the payout isnt what matters and are happy to dump people into insolvency rather than take cut price pay offs I don't know if they will be so keen with this sort of money. I think even if they lost the case their debt would stand at about 60 million and for a club of Rangers size I think this is survivable. Someone had mentioned the land around Ibrox being sold off and this is probably what will happen if they need to pay HMRC off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 Oher sources are suggesting that this may have been the submission that MB made in mid summer in which he asked for an arrestment but failed. The inclusion of expected bonuses for CL or EL participation supports that view. The word is that he will make a fresh attempt next week with the submission updated to include evidence of the HMRC arrestment for the "small" bill and the Levy & McCrae case as supporting his case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primrose Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Did we get paid in full for Lee Wallace? If not do we still "own him" if they do go into administration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bickfest Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Having read through it then it isn't as damning as it sounds. We all knew the HMRC case and the extent of it. No one is denying it not even Rangers. Bain like Whyte was fighting it so they must think they have some chance of winning or at least reducing the pay out. The ST money has been sold to a factor. There is absolutely nothing to say that it isn't sitting in an account ready for HMRC as suggested it would be. In fact it could be the ringfenced money. Some creditors aren't being paid but this happens as we know better than anyone. I doubt Bain will get near what he is claiming and probably a small payout for the breach of discliplinary process and lack of notice. The appendices would probably have been most telling but they are not there I still think HMRC will accept a pay off at some point. They would not get anywhere near their money through insolvency routes and whilst they have shown in the last few years the payout isnt what matters and are happy to dump people into insolvency rather than take cut price pay offs I don't know if they will be so keen with this sort of money. I think even if they lost the case their debt would stand at about 60 million and for a club of Rangers size I think this is survivable. Someone had mentioned the land around Ibrox being sold off and this is probably what will happen if they need to pay HMRC off. Why do you think that? I doubt it very much, unless it was to be in excess of ?30 million. And they will quite cheerfully bankrupt Rangers if it comes to it - no hesitation IMO. The effect on other clubs (particularly the much bigger fish in the EPL), and other taxpayers, from the resultant publicity would fill the coffers more effectively than a million tax demands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Did we get paid in full for Lee Wallace? If not do we still "own him" if they do go into administration? Probably not we have been ******* stupid if we never got the cash up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davesmith Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Why do you think that? I doubt it very much, unless it was to be in excess of ?30 million. And they will quite cheerfully bankrupt Rangers if it comes to it - no hesitation IMO. The effect on other clubs (particularly the much bigger fish in the EPL), and other taxpayers, from the resultant publicity would fill the coffers more effectively than a million tax demands. I believe we got the wallace fee in full up front yes. As for the next bit. The reason I think this is that HMRC will be way down the list of creditors if Rangers went into insolvency, they would get pennies in the pound back. Whilst they have shown willing to do this with other clubs and business this has normally been for a few hundred k max. This is a massive sum and one that they aren't even guarenteed of winning. For that reason I think if Rangers increased their offers - I believe they where in about 12 million for both last time - then HMRC may consider it. If rangers were to fight it and continue to fight it this couldd go on years Conclusion - I don't believe Rangers will end up paying out anywhere near 40 million on the tax case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napoleon Wilson Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I'd heard a while back from somewhere that Whyte had mortgaged 3 years worth of future season ticket sales to raise some cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I believe we got the wallace fee in full up front yes. As for the next bit. The reason I think this is that HMRC will be way down the list of creditors if Rangers went into insolvency, they would get pennies in the pound back. Whilst they have shown willing to do this with other clubs and business this has normally been for a few hundred k max. This is a massive sum and one that they aren't even guarenteed of winning. For that reason I think if Rangers increased their offers - I believe they where in about 12 million for both last time - then HMRC may consider it. If rangers were to fight it and continue to fight it this couldd go on years Conclusion - I don't believe Rangers will end up paying out anywhere near 40 million on the tax case. The word at the time was the Lee Wallace fee was to be paid in three 500,000 installments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Say What Again Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 "It is almost certain the defender would qualify for the Europa League" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1874robbo Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Lee who????? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Winchester Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Fun times indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fermit the Krog Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I believe we got the wallace fee in full up front yes. I'm led to believe we never. 3 x 400k installments and the remaining 300k depending on appearances/league wins. Just what I was told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bickfest Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I believe we got the wallace fee in full up front yes. As for the next bit. The reason I think this is that HMRC will be way down the list of creditors if Rangers went into insolvency, they would get pennies in the pound back. Whilst they have shown willing to do this with other clubs and business this has normally been for a few hundred k max. This is a massive sum and one that they aren't even guarenteed of winning. For that reason I think if Rangers increased their offers - I believe they where in about 12 million for both last time - then HMRC may consider it. If rangers were to fight it and continue to fight it this couldd go on years Conclusion - I don't believe Rangers will end up paying out anywhere near 40 million on the tax case. HMRC policy, in the case of a technical dispute, is not to negotiate on the basis of what they might get back if the taxpayer fails to avoid administration or insolvency, but rather on their chances of winning (or in the case of an investigation, on the quality of evidence). I believe they are very confident of winning, and other clubs have already given up and settled. I would bet that a settlement will not take place at less than the tax involved, plus some level of penalty. The tax alone is ?35 million. And if HMRC head office see this as a test case, and one they believe they'll win, I doubt they'll want to settle until after the next tribunal. In my opinion, Rangers only chance of reducing the bill below ?35 million plus, is to win the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perth to Paisley Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I believe we got the wallace fee in full up front yes. As for the next bit. The reason I think this is that HMRC will be way down the list of creditors if Rangers went into insolvency, they would get pennies in the pound back. Whilst they have shown willing to do this with other clubs and business this has normally been for a few hundred k max. This is a massive sum and one that they aren't even guarenteed of winning. For that reason I think if Rangers increased their offers - I believe they where in about 12 million for both last time - then HMRC may consider it. If rangers were to fight it and continue to fight it this couldd go on years Conclusion - I don't believe Rangers will end up paying out anywhere near 40 million on the tax case. My understanding is that the HMRC are at the front of the queue wehn it comes to making payments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bickfest Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 My understanding is that the HMRC are at the front of the queue wehn it comes to making payments. Not any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 we... the great british taxpayer... DESERVE BETTER than be deprived of crucial tax revenues to HM Treasury in times of deep austerity... by free-loading, tax dodging, parasites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Grimes Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Stuck at work today & likely to be here for several hours. You'd think I'd be down in the dumps but, having just read this in full, I'm more.... :jbsmug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 A thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazzaBroon Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Could the publication of these papers not be detrimental to Bains ongoing court action? Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Could the publication of these papers not be detrimental to Bains ongoing court action? Just a thought Assuming the papers have been lodged - hardly. The only way that they could potentially be harmful is pre-warning Rangers' lawyers of the 'line of attack' but they would have been aware of that anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Winstone Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular John Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Rangers set to release a statement regarding the papers after the game according to the Beeb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas-voss Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Rangers set to release a statement regarding the papers after the game according to the Beeb. Swept under the carpet type statement I expect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Swept under the carpet type statement I expect Or pointing fingers at supporter(s) of the other half of the OF for "leaking" stories to the media? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feeno Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 beeb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Winchester Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 beeb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Root Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Revenue will go for the throat or they'll be hit with similar when trying to claw back tax from business. It's not in their interest to let this slide. Their best option is to seize all assets and flog them. They know there will be money men who will be forced to buy in or risk seeing Rangers die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardiac Rucksack Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 It'll be all sellicks fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tartofmidlothian Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I think even if they lost the case their debt would stand at about 60 million and for a club of Rangers size I think this is survivable. Someone had mentioned the land around Ibrox being sold off and this is probably what will happen if they need to pay HMRC off. Am I right in thinking the land round Ibrox is worth relative buttons? It's Govan, after all. Unless, I don't know, Tesco want to build a huge store or whatever. Why do you think that? I doubt it very much, unless it was to be in excess of ?30 million. And they will quite cheerfully bankrupt Rangers if it comes to it - no hesitation IMO. The effect on other clubs (particularly the much bigger fish in the EPL), and other taxpayers, from the resultant publicity would fill the coffers more effectively than a million tax demands. Quite right too IMO. It's harsh but fair treatment if football clubs are trying to dodge their tax obligations, it's their own fans' communities they're cheating out of money after all. A private individual in this position wouldn't be let off. Unless that individual was a banker, in which case we'd all have the pitchforks out. My understanding is that the HMRC are at the front of the queue wehn it comes to making payments. Does Scotland have a football creditors' rule, or is that just England? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davesmith Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 The revenue may well go for the throat but as it stands they have a debt of 53 million if they win the bigger case. Whyte is apparently willing to put in upto 15 mil for this. They have sold off 4 years worth of ST and Catering sales bringing in believed to be another 10 mil plus. HMRC would be very unlikely to turn down a big lump sum and then repayment plan given the risk of administration. Time will tell but I really don't see this tax case killing rangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feeno Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 The revenue may well go for the throat but as it stands they have a debt of 53 million if they win the bigger case. Whyte is apparently willing to put in upto 15 mil for this. They have sold off 4 years worth of ST and Catering sales bringing in believed to be another 10 mil plus. HMRC would be very unlikely to turn down a big lump sum and then repayment plan given the risk of administration. Time will tell but I really don't see this tax case killing rangers. you seem to be doin a lot flame fannin here davie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Huns no happy at the papers being leaked and the whispering campaign!! Tick Tock!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshallschunkychicken Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Huns no happy at the papers being leaked and the whispering campaign!! Tick Tock!! No denial of the papers' content though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tartofmidlothian Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Head in the sand response, as predicted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Root Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 The revenue may well go for the throat but as it stands they have a debt of 53 million if they win the bigger case. Whyte is apparently willing to put in upto 15 mil for this. They have sold off 4 years worth of ST and Catering sales bringing in believed to be another 10 mil plus. HMRC would be very unlikely to turn down a big lump sum and then repayment plan given the risk of administration. Time will tell but I really don't see this tax case killing rangers. HMRC prefer to wind a company up than having them trading from a position of insolvency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazzaBroon Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Assuming the papers have been lodged - hardly. The only way that they could potentially be harmful is pre-warning Rangers' lawyers of the 'line of attack' but they would have been aware of that anyway. Assuming that these are the Lawyers private papers then I'm afraid you may be a wee tad wrong with your assumption? In a statement on Saturday afternoon the club criticised what they described as the "ludicrous coverage" of their financial situation. "The problems Rangers Football Club is now having to deal with are historic and the chairman is committed to resolving the issues that are a direct and unwanted legacy of the previous regime," a spokesperson said. "The ludicrous coverage over the last couple of days regarding the payment of a minor sum of money to a lawyer and now this latest, and illegal, leak of court papers indicates a whispering campaign by people determined to damage the club. Form BBC There may be trouble ahead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazzaBroon Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Bleeding Tinternet double post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coburg Hearts Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 How sweet it is when the shoe is on the other foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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