kingantti1874 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 anybody who thinks this is harsh is a ###### idiot IMO - limp wristed liberal doo gooders who are at least partly responsible for getting us into a scenario where literally hundereds of thouhsands of people think they can do what they want with little or no consequence, These riots runiend the lives of many many people, have cost at least 3 people their lives, cost many more their jobs and have cost the taxpayer hundreds of millions and have embarassed this cocuntry globally... sure they are being made an example of but it absolutely has to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 You are trivializing this BIG TIME TW ? it wasn?t a harmless facebook page ? they knew what they were doing. You only have to look at them to tell that they are scum. I could not care if they die tomorrow. I only care about the decent people of Britain. Nothing ?fascist? about this. We are not lining up Jews and gassing them, we are wanting tough sentencing for criminals and justice for victims. I know there is never any justice in left wing politics as people rarely get what they deserve in life but the politics I believe in means bad things should happen to bad people and good things should happen to good people. This is a lefties wet dream in my opinion, **** the system, down with government and profit ? let?s take what we can for free! Please tell me you didn't just compare harsh sentencing to the holocaust..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Please tell me you didn't just compare harsh sentencing to the holocaust..... Oh Rossco Rossco How are you my little man? x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUG Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 So if I was to say "let's go kick Theresa May in her arid, dusty *****" I'm looking at four years in prison? Bit of a right-wingers' wet dream this, tough on crime and all that bollocks. It's shown we've got a fair amount of fascists in our country, one hint of unrest and any semblance of reason is jettison in favour of armed riot police. You right in head ? 4 dead millions of pounds worth of damage people losing there jobs/homes/ posseions ...and you say "one hint of unrest" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Oh Rossco Rossco How are you my little man? x Avoiding my point then I see, good to see your trolling hasn't improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Harris Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 A lot of populist retribution being dished out by the courts it would seem. We'll likely see the re-introduction of the stocks by the end of this parliament. You expect it from the tories but what are the lib dems up to...? such populist retribution wouldn't be possible without New Labour passing such draconian laws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 So if I was to say "let's go kick Theresa May in her arid, dusty *****" I'm looking at four years in prison? Bit of a right-wingers' wet dream this, tough on crime and all that bollocks. It's shown we've got a fair amount of fascists in our country, one hint of unrest and any semblance of reason is jettison in favour of armed riot police. instead of sending riot police we could have sent you down teenwolf, you could have given them all a hug and explained how you understood their feelings of pent up frustration at the state, who for some reason arent providing enough benefit so they can go out and buy the luxury items they feel they deserve. - maybe that would have brought about a swift end and prevented future riots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 So if I was to say "let's go kick Theresa May in her arid, dusty *****" I'm looking at four years in prison? Bit of a right-wingers' wet dream this, tough on crime and all that bollocks. It's shown we've got a fair amount of fascists in our country, one hint of unrest and any semblance of reason is jettison in favour of armed riot police. Hardly "a hint of unrest". More like a number of families grieving about lost loved ones (you obviously don't care about them) and millions of pounds worth of damage and lost livlihoods. But you don't care about that do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Avoiding my point then I see, good to see your trolling hasn't improved. It didn't deserve a response my little man as you were the one infact trolling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoussetsShorts Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Excellent! 2 less scum bags on our streets. Use the little pieces of dog shit as an example. We will not tolerate Anarchy and gratuitous violence and theft in our society. I appreciate there are worse crimes and they get less sentencing but these guys wanted to be the ringleaders. They thought they were big and clever. You ask the people who have to pay the ? of a billion pounds back if this is unfair. You ask the loved ones of the victims of those who died if this is unfair You ask them who lost their lives work and livelihoods if this is unfair. Good people of Britain 1 scum of Britain 0 Bravo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco_Jambo Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 So if I was to say "let's go kick Theresa May in her arid, dusty *****" I'm looking at four years in prison? Bit of a right-wingers' wet dream this, tough on crime and all that bollocks. It's shown we've got a fair amount of fascists in our country, one hint of unrest and any semblance of reason is jettison in favour of armed riot police. Bit simplistic to use that example. They did plead gulity to attempting to organise and incite riots. It's safe to say there position wasn't just that they were posting tongue in cheek messages on facebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 It didn't deserve a response my little man as you were the one infact trolling Not at all, I was pointing out the shocking comparison you were making and giving you an opportunity to explain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Not at all, I was pointing out the shocking comparison you were making and giving you an opportunity to explain it. It really wasn't a comparison wee dude tho was it. Let's be brutally real for one second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Plissken Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 You are trivializing this BIG TIME TW ? it wasn?t a harmless facebook page ? they knew what they were doing. You only have to look at them to tell that they are scum. I could not care if they die tomorrow. I only care about the decent people of Britain. Nothing ?fascist? about this. We are not lining up Jews and gassing them, we are wanting tough sentencing for criminals and justice for victims. I know there is never any justice in left wing politics as people rarely get what they deserve in life but the politics I believe in means bad things should happen to bad people and good things should happen to good people. This is a lefties wet dream in my opinion, **** the system, down with government and profit ? let?s take what we can for free! Where to start..... Your post is a mess of confused jibberish so I shall do my best to extract some form of meaning and attempt to answer some of your points... II I was to search some of the things you've posted over the years, mon ami, I'd find a veritable plethora of examples of 'incitement to violence' and often you proclaim yourself to be genuinely serious in your opinions. So you should be locked up too, right? But you'll screech that it's different, won't you? And yes, taking away liberties and sanctioning police brutality is fascistic - when people are thrown in prison for writing something on a facebook page I think we're heading down a pretty dangerous path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Where to start..... Your post is a mess of confused jibberish so I shall do my best to extract some form of meaning and attempt to answer some of your points... II I was to search some of the things you've posted over the years, mon ami, I'd find a veritable plethora of examples of 'incitement to violence' and often you proclaim yourself to be genuinely serious in your opinions. So you should be locked up too, right? But you'll screech that it's different, won't you? And yes, taking away liberties and sanctioning police brutality is fascistic - when people are thrown in prison for writing something on a facebook page I think we're heading down a pretty dangerous path. So using your logic it would be OK to use Facebook to incite someone to murder then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Where to start..... Your post is a mess of confused jibberish so I shall do my best to extract some form of meaning and attempt to answer some of your points... II I was to search some of the things you've posted over the years, mon ami, I'd find a veritable plethora of examples of 'incitement to violence' and often you proclaim yourself to be genuinely serious in your opinions. So you should be locked up too, right? But you'll screech that it's different, won't you? And yes, taking away liberties and sanctioning police brutality is fascistic - when people are thrown in prison for writing something on a facebook page I think we're heading down a pretty dangerous path. When fundamental Islamists post videos on ?you tube? about killing infidels and martyring themselves for the sake of Allah ? do you think punishing them is ?over the top?? It is after all only an innocent video isn?t it dude? I think it is a pretty feckin big deal creating facebook pages about tearing up the streets of Britain for young impressionable youths! Call me a fascist if you want! But to me it is a big feckin deal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Plissken Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 So using your logic it would be OK to use Facebook to incite someone to murder then? Did I say that? 'I don't think jail is an appropriate response to this' = limp wristed, riot apologist riiiiight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Plissken Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 edit: duplicate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 When fundamental Islamists post videos on ?you tube? about killing infidels and martyring themselves for the sake of Allah ? do you think punishing them is ?over the top?? It is after all only an innocent video isn?t it dude? I think it is a pretty feckin big deal creating facebook pages about tearing up the streets of Britain for young impressionable youths! Call me a fascist if you want! But to me it is a big feckin deal! I was being, maybe, a tad harsh singling out your holocaust comparisons, but there is a huge gap between inciting mass murder and posting something on facebook about riots. I've said already that they should be punished and charged, but 4 years is ridiculously excessive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Plissken Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 When fundamental Islamists post videos on ?you tube? about killing infidels and martyring themselves for the sake of Allah ? do you think punishing them is ?over the top?? It is after all only an innocent video isn?t it dude? I think it is a pretty feckin big deal creating facebook pages about tearing up the streets of Britain for young impressionable youths! Call me a fascist if you want! But to me it is a big feckin deal! I'm pretty sure those types of videos get taken down, though it's quite a leap to go from looting to murdering infidels. Let's try to stay on subject here, shall we? So if creating a facebook page is a big deal, starting a thread on a forum is also a big deal, right? Better get deleting some of your old threads lest they come for you next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Cooroboration remains an important legal safeguard. Corroboration can come in different forms. Are you suggesting we do away with it in all rape cases? Not at all, although I do think there are serious problems with the conviction rate. For anyone praising this sentencing; can I ask what experience or knowledge of legal systems you have to know that this is a good idea? Are any of you qualified to have an informed opinion? Somehow, I highly doubt it. This is a typically Tory solution which will only cause more bother in the long run. It's a HUGE waste of public money and it's hugely likely to be counter intuitive: people who feel marginalised in a society commit more crime. This is a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 For anyone praising this sentencing; can I ask what experience or knowledge of legal systems you have to know that this is a good idea? Are any of you qualified to have an informed opinion? Somehow, I highly doubt it. This is a typically Tory solution which will only cause more bother in the long run. It's a HUGE waste of public money and it's hugely likely to be counter intuitive: people who feel marginalised in a society commit more crime. This is a fact. absolute rubbish - thats all i can say... honestly i cant believe this... as i posted above its this sort of attitude which has left hundered of thousands of people, possibly millions thinking there are no reprecussions for this type of behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 absolute rubbish - thats all i can say... honestly i cant believe this... as i posted above its this sort of attitude which has left hundered of thousands of people, possibly millions thinking there are no reprecussions for this type of behaviour. So that'll be "no qualifications" then. Cheers. There's a reason why people like you aren't involved in the justice system. And anyone who thinks this particularly English problem is a consequence of light sentencing clearly has little understanding of what has happened. Cameron talks of a 'war' on gangs? Yes, that worked really well in Columbia and Mexico, right enough. Face it, beyond the anger, the seethers don't actually know what they're talking about; they have no experience, no sense of proportion and no clue. Such opinions are embarrassingly articulated and laughably short-sighted. If you want to present a reasonable argument as to why jailing people for 4 years for posting comments on a social networking site, then expect ridicule from people who have a vague idea of what they're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 So that'll be "no qualifications" then. Cheers. There's a reason why people like you aren't involved in the justice system. And anyone who thinks this particularly English problem is a consequence of light sentencing clearly has little understanding of what has happened. Cameron talks of a 'war' on gangs? Yes, that worked really well in Columbia and Mexico, right enough. Face it, beyond the anger, the seethers don't actually know what they're talking about; they have no experience, no sense of proportion and no clue. Such opinions are embarrassingly articulated and laughably short-sighted. If you want to present a reasonable argument as to why jailing people for 4 years for posting comments on a social networking site, then expect ridicule from people who have a vague idea of what they're talking about. and what are your qualifications patrick? - why dont you enlighten me!! lets face it - your spraffing just as much shite from your soapbox as the rest of us - 'no experience, no sense of proportion and no clue' is a statement which can also be used to describe the 'give them a hug its not their fault brigade'. All i can say with certainty is the views you demonstrate here are one factor which has led to a significant minority amongst our population which have absolutely no sense whatsoever of social reponsibility. i think most people understand that the reasons behind this are diverse, and some innovative solutuions will be required long term but im equally sure that tough sentencing will put off those around the fringes who were drawn in basically to get a free blu ray or 2 - wont be quite as attractive if they are faced with some serious jail time. As regards the last sentence of your arguement - i take comfort in the fact that the vast majority of our population, including our most influential public servants, politicians and judges also believe tough sentencing to be the most appropriate and immediate course of action at this time - if you still believe you are better informed and better qualified to make such policy decisions - then what the **** are you doing on jambos kickback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freebird Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 You are trivializing this BIG TIME TW ? it wasn?t a harmless facebook page ? they knew what they were doing. You only have to look at them to tell that they are scum. I could not care if they die tomorrow. I only care about the decent people of Britain. Nothing ?fascist? about this. We are not lining up Jews and gassing them, we are wanting tough sentencing for criminals and justice for victims. I know there is never any justice in left wing politics as people rarely get what they deserve in life but the politics I believe in means bad things should happen to bad people and good things should happen to good people. This is a lefties wet dream in my opinion, **** the system, down with government and profit ? let?s take what we can for free! This post has already been picked apart, but no one seems to have commented on the fact that you seem to equate Fascism with Antisemitism. They are entirely different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 So that'll be "no qualifications" then. Cheers. There's a reason why people like you aren't involved in the justice system. And anyone who thinks this particularly English problem is a consequence of light sentencing clearly has little understanding of what has happened. Cameron talks of a 'war' on gangs? Yes, that worked really well in Columbia and Mexico, right enough. Face it, beyond the anger, the seethers don't actually know what they're talking about; they have no experience, no sense of proportion and no clue. Such opinions are embarrassingly articulated and laughably short-sighted. If you want to present a reasonable argument as to why jailing people for 4 years for posting comments on a social networking site, then expect ridicule from people who have a vague idea of what they're talking about. And you on the other hand are portraying yourself as some sort of qualified expert whose view is somehow "above" those of others if they have no qualifications. You may for all I know be a qualified human rights lawyer but your opinion is no more or less valid than anyone elses. Sorry to burst your bubble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheriff Fatman Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 And you on the other hand are portraying yourself as some sort of qualified expert whose view is somehow "above" those of others if they have no qualifications. You may for all I know be a qualified human rights lawyer but your opinion is no more or less valid than anyone elses. Sorry to burst your bubble. I'll tell you who was qualified, their lawyers. In both cases the defendants plead guilty to a charge that can carry up to 10 years in jail, their lawyers would have known that and advised their clients accordingly. For them now to complain that their sentence is too harsh when it is one that is less than half of the maximum they could have got is a bit rich, they should have thought of that when the plead guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambos are go! Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 The sentence is disproportionate IMO. However, if scares the sh*t out of the racists and bigots on here it will have served a purpose. Will be reduced on appeal surely though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southside1874 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I don't feel better at all. Without being overly dramatic I am quite worried that the judicial system thinks that four years in prison is a fitting sentence for internet nonsense. When the judiciary is used by politicians for their own ends, in this case to make them look good, we are in danger of losing accountability and autonomy. It's only a short step from this kind of interference (albeit perhaps complicit) to removing people who speak out against you. On the other note; I think the rape statistics are that the conviction rate is low, maybe only 7% of reported rapes end in conviction. There's a long way between a crime being committed and someone sitting in a jail cell. Send them to prison and they'll come out criminals. That excuse for a man Cameron distanced himself from the punishment. Earlier in the week he was saying they would not tolerate that behaviour and the folk caught will feel the full force of the law. Yellow belly has just reached the low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsychocAndy Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Excellent! 2 less scum bags on our streets. Use the little pieces of dog shit as an example. We will not tolerate Anarchy and gratuitous violence and theft in our society. I appreciate there are worse crimes and they get less sentencing but these guys wanted to be the ringleaders. They thought they were big and clever. You ask the people who have to pay the ? of a billion pounds back if this is unfair. You ask the loved ones of the victims of those who died if this is unfair You ask them who lost their lives work and livelihoods if this is unfair. Good people of Britain 1 scum of Britain 0 Bravo! We do tolerate 2 out of the 3 things there. Theft being the odd one out. When I say we I mean our judiciary do. You are trivializing this BIG TIME TW ? it wasn?t a harmless facebook page ? they knew what they were doing. You only have to look at them to tell that they are scum. I could not care if they die tomorrow. I only care about the decent people of Britain. Nothing ?fascist? about this. We are not lining up Jews and gassing them, we are wanting tough sentencing for criminals and justice for victims. I know there is never any justice in left wing politics as people rarely get what they deserve in life but the politics I believe in means bad things should happen to bad people and good things should happen to good people. This is a lefties wet dream in my opinion, **** the system, down with government and profit ? let?s take what we can for free! I will gloss over the genocide attempt at the Jewish people because the nuances of the written word can be hard to define, but I am a leftie and while I agree with the sentencing the timing is all off. Less than a week to get all the evidence and then convictions, it's knee-jerk sentencing to a knee-jerk reaction from knee-jerk politicians. If this was to happen in a months time, then I doubt there would be as big a outcry over the length of time. The law has to be seen to be done and this isn't. This looks political. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 and what are your qualifications patrick? - why dont you enlighten me!! lets face it - your spraffing just as much shite from your soapbox as the rest of us - 'no experience, no sense of proportion and no clue' is a statement which can also be used to describe the 'give them a hug its not their fault brigade'. All i can say with certainty is the views you demonstrate here are one factor which has led to a significant minority amongst our population which have absolutely no sense whatsoever of social reponsibility. i think most people understand that the reasons behind this are diverse, and some innovative solutuions will be required long term but im equally sure that tough sentencing will put off those around the fringes who were drawn in basically to get a free blu ray or 2 - wont be quite as attractive if they are faced with some serious jail time. As regards the last sentence of your arguement - i take comfort in the fact that the vast majority of our population, including our most influential public servants, politicians and judges also believe tough sentencing to be the most appropriate and immediate course of action at this time - if you still believe you are better informed and better qualified to make such policy decisions - then what the **** are you doing on jambos kickback. I'm a final year law student and have plenty of friends and relations in the business. To a man, they prefer community based sentencing because a great deal of evidence shows that it is more effective in the long term, that's from qualified opinions, not baseless and hysterical ranting. Simply using a stick doesn't work with most people and it costs far, far more to keep them in prison with little *actual* long term benefit. Just look at the US - It has an absolutely huge prison population and that does absolutely nothing to deter criminals It's therefore far more beneficial to get them to do community service. I wonder who these "influential public servants, politicians and judges" are? In England, perhaps with some Tories trying to make political capital out of their ineptitude; but in Scotland, the approach is quite different and we haven't seen anything like the scenes in England. In fact, the countries with the lower crime rates tend to have 'lefty' approaches to justice and social concerns, just like in Scandinavia. I like to base my opinions on fact; not conjecture, vitriol and what might be permissible in China or Saudi Arabia. That approach simply doesn't work. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambos1983 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I'm a final year law student and have plenty of friends and relations in the business. To a man, they prefer community based sentencing because a great deal of evidence shows that it is more effective in the long term, that's from qualified opinions, not baseless and hysterical ranting. Simply using a stick doesn't work with most people and it costs far, far more to keep them in prison with little *actual* long term benefit. Just look at the US - It has an absolutely huge prison population and that does absolutely nothing to deter criminals It's therefore far more beneficial to get them to do community service. I wonder who these "influential public servants, politicians and judges" are? In England, perhaps with some Tories trying to make political capital out of their ineptitude; but in Scotland, the approach is quite different and we haven't seen anything like the scenes in England. In fact, the countries with the lower crime rates tend to have 'lefty' approaches to justice and social concerns, just like in Scandinavia. I like to base my opinions on fact; not conjecture, vitriol and what might be permissible in China or Saudi Arabia. That approach simply doesn't work. Hope this helps. What a load of condescending crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I'm a final year law student and have plenty of friends and relations in the business. To a man, they prefer community based sentencing because a great deal of evidence shows that it is more effective in the long term, that's from qualified opinions, not baseless and hysterical ranting. Simply using a stick doesn't work with most people and it costs far, far more to keep them in prison with little *actual* long term benefit. Just look at the US - It has an absolutely huge prison population and that does absolutely nothing to deter criminals It's therefore far more beneficial to get them to do community service. I wonder who these "influential public servants, politicians and judges" are? In England, perhaps with some Tories trying to make political capital out of their ineptitude; but in Scotland, the approach is quite different and we haven't seen anything like the scenes in England. In fact, the countries with the lower crime rates tend to have 'lefty' approaches to justice and social concerns, just like in Scandinavia. I like to base my opinions on fact; not conjecture, vitriol and what might be permissible in China or Saudi Arabia. That approach simply doesn't work. Hope this helps. it does help, it helps prove as suspected you know very little about the complexities of the subject. Your a final year law student, most likely to spend your career settling mortgage applications or writing will using templates downloaded from google so sorry im not gushing at the vast amount of experience you bring to the debate - sorry to be a ******, no more than you were earlier im sure youll agree. if you believe scotlands approach to handling crime is the reason there were no riots here again your demonstrating nothing but naivety - lots of factors contributed to the fact that there were no riots here, population density, lack of annonimity amongst peers and within communities, the fact that police had started to monitor social networking before people tried in vain to organise similar events here. How do your experiecned colleagues explain our softly softly approach when looking at the fact that glasgow has the highest murder rate of any country outside the 3rd world? or ridiculous levels ofsectarian violence, or the highest drug abuse rates in europe - have their policies worked? are the policies we enforce in this country thought to be a success - no thought not!!.. it appears you base your opinions on what youve read in books - or repeat what other people have told you, some of what you saypraffe may well be true, but i believe you have to look at each case in isolation and draft policy based on the curcumstances of each individual case - and in the case of the riots the line must be drawn and drawn quickly to ensure there is no repeat.. i doubt very many disagree that is the most efficient stance at this point in time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I'm a final year law student and have plenty of friends and relations in the business. To a man, they prefer community based sentencing because a great deal of evidence shows that it is more effective in the long term, that's from qualified opinions, not baseless and hysterical ranting. Simply using a stick doesn't work with most people and it costs far, far more to keep them in prison with little *actual* long term benefit. Just look at the US - It has an absolutely huge prison population and that does absolutely nothing to deter criminals It's therefore far more beneficial to get them to do community service. I wonder who these "influential public servants, politicians and judges" are? In England, perhaps with some Tories trying to make political capital out of their ineptitude; but in Scotland, the approach is quite different and we haven't seen anything like the scenes in England. In fact, the countries with the lower crime rates tend to have 'lefty' approaches to justice and social concerns, just like in Scandinavia. I like to base my opinions on fact; not conjecture, vitriol and what might be permissible in China or Saudi Arabia. That approach simply doesn't work. Hope this helps. lol you are a student yet you ask others to give their "qualifications" otherwise their views are not valid. What arrogance. Do you also advocate community sentences for murder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 it does help, it helps prove as suspected you know very little about the complexities of the subject. Your a final year law student, most likely to spend your career settling mortgage applications or writing will using templates downloaded from google so sorry im not gushing at the vast amount of experience you bring to the debate - sorry to be a ******, no more than you were earlier im sure youll agree. if you believe scotlands approach to handling crime is the reason there were no riots here again your demonstrating nothing but naivety - lots of factors contributed to the fact that there were no riots here, population density, lack of annonimity amongst peers and within communities, the fact that police had started to monitor social networking before people tried in vain to organise similar events here. How do your experiecned colleagues explain our softly softly approach when looking at the fact that glasgow has the highest murder rate of any country outside the 3rd world? or ridiculous levels ofsectarian violence, or the highest drug abuse rates in europe - have their policies worked? are the policies we enforce in this country thought to be a success - no thought not!!.. it appears you base your opinions on what youve read in books - or repeat what other people have told you, some of what you saypraffe may well be true, but i believe you have to look at each case in isolation and draft policy based on the curcumstances of each individual case - and in the case of the riots the line must be drawn and drawn quickly to ensure there is no repeat.. i doubt very many disagree that is the most efficient stance at this point in time My knowledge of the law extends beyond merely studying it and the people I listen to have a fair whack of experience themselves. I base my opinions on listening to those who are educated and experienced in the area. When you say things like "Drafting policy based on individuals circumstances' it really highlights your ignorance of justice systems. The law is there to restore some sense of balance in society, not pander to the wishes of the mob. As for your ludicrous point about Glasgow having the highest murder rate of "any country outwith the 3rd world" - not only does that make no sense, it's also plainly wrong: American cities have a far, far higher murder rate. Country wise, the likes of Finland and Russia also have far higher murder rates. In reality, crime in Scotland is falling, if you paid attention to the statistics it is at a 30 year low. So you can dismiss my "book smarts" all you want; At least I vaguely know what talking about. What are your opinions based on, other than vitriol? The strange thing is; you even seem to concede that the sentences are a short term measure and that the nature of Scottish society makes these things less likely; maybe the English should take some time to rebuild their own society rather than spending vast amounts of resources in incarcerating them? Just a thought. Did I say Scotland had perfect society? No. We clearly have problems but that's little to do with the justice system and more to do with a total lack of investment in some areas. I've posted this video a few times for the benefit of those who just *love* to blame "the left" for all societies ills, when really, the UK Government has been thoroughly right wing for over 30 years. Thankfully, Scotland sways towards the Norwegian model. Treating people humanely, fairly and proportionately to their crimes works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 lol you are a student yet you ask others to give their "qualifications" otherwise their views are not valid. What arrogance. Do you also advocate community sentences for murder? Wibble Wibble. Did I say that? Care to twist my words any more? I didn't say their opinions weren't valid, merely that they didn't stand up to scrutiny. I've yet to hear ONE logical argument as to how this form of sentencing is a good idea, because those sorts of comments are made by people who are relatively ignorant of the justice system. I haven't heard ONE qualified QC or Barrister say publicly that this form of sentencing is appropriate to the crimes committed. It's hardly a radical idea to say this makes a mockery of the English justice system. Any system which uses 'justice' to make examples of people is steering itself into disrepute. What a load of condescending crap. Frankly, if people aren't able to provide reasonable arguments or facts to back up their laughable visions of medieval retribution, then they deserve mockery in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Patrick - your knowledge of the law extends how far?, sorry mate but if your in 4th year at uni your barely out of school, you know I have a masters in civil engineering from glasow but guess what, uni counts for shit in re real world I think you need to go ask the big boys at uni what mockery means, I can assure you if your trying to mock people your failing badly. Also you've managed to successfully avoid all pertinent points.. I wonder if your run of the mill norwegian, look forward to the prospect of giving Anders Breivig a light sentence Following his escapades.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Wibble Wibble. Did I say that? Care to twist my words any more? I didn't say their opinions weren't valid, merely that they didn't stand up to scrutiny. I've yet to hear ONE logical argument as to how this form of sentencing is a good idea, because those sorts of comments are made by people who are relatively ignorant of the justice system. I haven't heard ONE qualified QC or Barrister say publicly that this form of sentencing is appropriate to the crimes committed. It's hardly a radical idea to say this makes a mockery of the English justice system. Any system which uses 'justice' to make examples of people is steering itself into disrepute. Frankly, if people aren't able to provide reasonable arguments or facts to back up their laughable visions of medieval retribution, then they deserve mockery in my view. Oh dear. So tell us, o master. What would you have sentenced the two Facebook guys with? I have no "qualifications" so I defer to your opinion. And I presume you would sentence Breivig to community work so that he doesn't get any more dissafected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The People's Chimp Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Also you've managed to successfully avoid all pertinent points.. I wonder if your run of the mill norwegian, look forward to the prospect of giving Anders Breivig a light sentence Following his escapades.. But he's not though, has he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Also you've managed to successfully avoid all pertinent points.. I wonder if your run of the mill norwegian, look forward to the prospect of giving Anders Breivig a light sentence Following his escapades.. Can't say i've noticed them. Care to point out what he's not answered quoting a legitimate source as i can't see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 He aluded to the fact that the reason there were no riots in Scotland was because we have a more lenient justice system.. More along the lines of Norway- sorry but thats utter garbage... A complete fabrication. no evidence whatsoever to suggest we have a superior justice system to the English and even less evidence to suggest it was a factor in no Scottish riots... No doubt he advocated our justice ministers fantatic decision to free the lockerbie bomber on compassionate grounds... What the softly softly approach Completely disregards ate the views of the victim, you think a rape victim wants her attacker rehabilitated and re integrated quickly into society...? Why does someone who murders someone deseve a second chance at all? - forget costs etc for a second - you take a life - you should lose the chance to have one - it really is as simple as that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Sorry, this may be a really silly question, but where is the comparison between 2 idiots trying to incite a riot on facebook with, not only murderers, but psychotic mass murderers coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I'm a final year law student and have plenty of friends and relations in the business. To a man, they prefer community based sentencing because a great deal of evidence shows that it is more effective in the long term, that's from qualified opinions, not baseless and hysterical ranting. Simply using a stick doesn't work with most people and it costs far, far more to keep them in prison with little *actual* long term benefit. Just look at the US - It has an absolutely huge prison population and that does absolutely nothing to deter criminals It's therefore far more beneficial to get them to do community service. I wonder who these "influential public servants, politicians and judges" are? In England, perhaps with some Tories trying to make political capital out of their ineptitude; but in Scotland, the approach is quite different and we haven't seen anything like the scenes in England. In fact, the countries with the lower crime rates tend to have 'lefty' approaches to justice and social concerns, just like in Scandinavia. I like to base my opinions on fact; not conjecture, vitriol and what might be permissible in China or Saudi Arabia. That approach simply doesn't work. Hope this helps. Great post. Time spent in prison is not time growing up. You don't mature in prison, it's a cocoon, you have no responsibilities. It's like your life gets put on pause. You go in at 18 full of daftness for 6 years, you come out at 24, just as daft, whilst your mates have maybe got married and kids, so you hook up with others 18 year olds and end up back in the jail. You mature and understand the impact of your actions when you relate to the greater world around you. When you spend time with a diverse range of people you begin to understand more about their lives, you see other points of view, you have a greater understanding of the way things work in the world. This is one of the main reasons why community sentencing is successful in the long term. It should be be given far more regard and promoted, not as a soft option as it often is, but for many crimes it should be promoted as the best option. 100 hours community service and a 12 month suspended sentence would have been more than sufficient for the Facebook nonsense imo. I wonder if some posters have been over their doorstep... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Great post. Time spent in prison is not time growing up. You don't mature in prison, it's a cocoon, you have no responsibilities. It's like your life gets put on pause. You go in at 18 full of daftness for 6 years, you come out at 24, just as daft, whilst your mates have maybe got married and kids, so you hook up with others 18 year olds and end up back in the jail. You mature and understand the impact of your actions when you relate to the greater world around you. When you spend time with a diverse range of people you begin to understand more about their lives, you see other points of view, you have a greater understanding of the way things work in the world. This is one of the main reasons why community sentencing is successful in the long term. It should be be given far more regard and promoted, not as a soft option as it often is, but for many crimes it should be promoted as the best option. 100 hours community service and a 12 month suspended sentence would have been more than sufficient for the Facebook nonsense imo. I wonder if some posters have been over their doorstep... Sometimes a clear message has to be sent out as to what is and is not acceptable in a free society - I think that the sentences handed out to the two numb skulls reflects this and should act as a deterrent to others who may be tempted to go down the same road. Harsh it is - but harsh it had to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmiyaRomanova Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Four years in prison, or banned from using Facebook for a year - both sentences handed down for making posts inciting others to riot on Facebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 He aluded to the fact that the reason there were no riots in Scotland was because we have a more lenient justice system.. More along the lines of Norway- sorry but thats utter garbage... A complete fabrication. no evidence whatsoever to suggest we have a superior justice system to the English and even less evidence to suggest it was a factor in no Scottish riots... No doubt he advocated our justice ministers fantatic decision to free the lockerbie bomber on compassionate grounds... What the softly softly approach Completely disregards ate the views of the victim, you think a rape victim wants her attacker rehabilitated and re integrated quickly into society...? Why does someone who murders someone deseve a second chance at all? - forget costs etc for a second - you take a life - you should lose the chance to have one - it really is as simple as that... you're not talking about justice though, you are talking about revenge and retribution which the legal system is not there to provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Sometimes a clear message has to be sent out as to what is and is not acceptable in a free society - I think that the sentences handed out to the two numb skulls reflects this and should act as a deterrent to others who may be tempted to go down the same road. Harsh it is - but harsh it had to be. correct, this is about making an exmaple to snure this does not happen again.. in the specific case of the riots both the goverment and "QUALIFIED" senior judges within the british legal system have deemed it appropriate to make an example, so that in future - those who have been dragged in, thought it was a good laugh or tried to organise similar gatherings in future are put off - its completely appropriate... does anyone seriously think it will not act as a deterrent to the majority... of course it will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 does anyone seriously think it will not act as a deterrent to the majority... of course it will it wont make a blind bit of difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Sorry, this may be a really silly question, but where is the comparison between 2 idiots trying to incite a riot on facebook with, not only murderers, but psychotic mass murderers coming from? x2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 you're not talking about justice though, you are talking about revenge and retribution which the legal system is not there to provide. in my opinion our legal system seems to have gotten a little confused over the years, the term justice system itself implies its primary reason for being is to ensure justice is done and that offenders are punished appropriately.. in many cases (not all) our justice system give the impression their main focus are the offenders and how they can be rehabilitated and reintroduced as a functioning member of society - where is the justice in that. PB seems fond of the Norwegian model to demonstrate how his arguement, however i could use the example of many arab countries whos legal system is far more, how should we say, 'robust' than our own who not only have better crime and re offending statistics than our own but also blow norway completely out of the water. (you see how facts can be used to manipulate a view PB) dont get me wrong - im not suggesting we implement a similar system, all im saying is there are a raft of measures which need to be looked at and in the specific case of the riots, it absolutely must be demonstrated that what happened was completely unacceptable and will not be tolerated.. Strict / Swift sentencing (in the view of senior people within the judiciary) has been accepted as the most effective way to demonstrate this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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