RoussetsShorts Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 1) Fewer people are attending SPL matches each season 2) Fewer people are prepared to pay the prices being asked for SPL matches compared to other ways they could spend that money That automatically signals that the price / value being offered is mismatched and that prices are too high relative to what is being offered in exchange. 3) It might suit clubs to try to maintain higher prices and revenues with the burden falling on the reduced number of supporters continuing to attend or trying to make good the shortfall via additional television or sponsorship money etc but that will do zilch to reverse falling attendances because currently PRICES ARE TOO EXPENSIVE and fewer people are prepared to pay those prices at ALL SPL clubs. Exactly, ?27-?31 for hibs celtic etc - Both games live on TV. Anything over ?20 is ludicrous for the standard on show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo Drifter Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14467953.stm "Rangers reported a ?4.2m gain, while Celtic posted the SPL's biggest losses. Scottish Premier League clubs face going bust if the fans continue to stay away, according to a top football finance analyst. Attendance figures show that almost 600,000 fans have stopped attending SPL games in the past five years." Can anyone give me a rough idea of how much of this 600,000 is made up by OF fans? I'd imagine, and this is horribly rough, that over five years celtic's attendences have dropped by 5,000 on average. If that's the case that makes (5,000*19games*5years) a smidgen under 1/2million. Thats fag packet maths though, anyone got any idea that actually knows what they're on about? Good fact boxes in the Herald: Hearts average attendance rose, one of only three to do so. Celtic were down 20%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 :Vlad-Stupid: You do realise you're a terrible poster, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoussetsShorts Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 You do realise you're a terrible poster, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Cheever Loophole Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Football is far too dear in this country for the rubbish that is served up. Completely empty stands are a common site at most games. A drastic overhaul in pricing strategy is needed. Surely it would be better for clubs like Killie and Well to charge a fiver and fill up their ground than to play to 3/4 empty stadiums every week? This, but may be aTenner.I remember a few years ago we got a ?5 discount if we produced our season ticket at Fir Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Is there anyway that MOD's can block certain users from posting Smileys? In fact over-usage of smileys should be a banning offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoussetsShorts Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Is there anyway that MOD's can block certain users from posting Smileys? In fact over-usage of smileys should be a banning offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Good fact boxes in the Herald: Hearts average attendance rose, one of only three to do so. Celtic were down 20%. Excellent news for Scottish football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 That makes sense. Please, cease trolling good threads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots civil war Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 a real worry,aside from the price for games etc,is the continual draining of above average players here to the championship or even epl sides like wigan that moves faster than what the scottish clubs can produce thus the overall quality of the game up here diminshes even further lack of goals means empty seats ,we are seeing the results so far are very low scoring if any.....there was a 3-3 draw recently but thats as rare as hens teeth depressing,even at this early stage of the season id like to see us going into the english game tbh....the game is on its arse and there is no way back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartsfc_fan Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 The whole of Scottish football needs to start from the bottom. The fact that if you finish bottom in division 3 doesn't get you relegated, it's a farce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie_preston Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 probably the daftest idea i've ever come up with regarding football, but seeing as the ugly sisters say they don't want to play in our league but don't go why don't the rest of the clubs in Scotland leave them & set up a league that suits the rest of Scotland? I'm sure TV companies & all the loyal old firm fans will be delighted to watch Celtic v Rangers & Rangers v Celtic every weekend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 nah that was pish back to the drawing board . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourcandles Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Good fact boxes in the Herald: Hearts average attendance rose, one of only three to do so. Celtic were down 20%. Keep on topic, we're discussing Scottish teams , not Iorish ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambonian Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Lots of reasons, too many are adopting an English team to support and watching them instead of watching their own team. I don't give two hoots about Man U, Chelsea and the others, i live and support a team in Scotland. Another reason is that the press/media ram the oldfirm down our throats and impressionable youngsters choose to follow them and not their local clubs. There are also too many gloryhunters heading to Glasgow week in week out. Local Celtic/Rangers fans would probably make up around half of their attendances. Funny how before Souness Rangers were playing to between 15 and 20,000 at Ibrox and Celtic played to around 28,000, 33,000 during their centenery in 1988. Suddenly McCann appears on the scene and there's 60,000? Where did they all suddenly appear from? Pricing is too expensive aswell, why don't they do something at the likes of the smaller clubs... pay for one or two to get in another two get in half price or free? The money made would still be the same but at least the stadiums would be better attended. A tenner for a Motherwell or St Johnstone game would increase their attendances. Cost me ?22 to get into Fir Park on Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I don't think people will come back to the Scottish game until we get more managers in that want to play football as opposed to the headless chicken type pressing game we see from a lot of Scottish teams. Some SPL teams are charging nearly ?30 for a home league match this season which is just ridiculous considering the poor spectacle on offer most of the time. There's far too many league teams in Scotland TBH, 42 league teams when you have only a population of 5m are numbers that don't really fit. What is really needed but will never happen is no relegation from the SPL for a few years so that teams can relax and start playing football instead of playing defensive 4-5-1's thus flooding the midfield and strangling the game. I think instead of looking at ourselves as Scottish teams we need to look at ourselves as UK teams playing in Scotland. We have 10% of England's population and as you rightly say, 42 senior clubs, when on a basis proportionate to population we should have 10 or less. To do so would need amalgamations which we all know are extremely unlikely but if we could get that we might have a better product more capable of attracting bigger crowds and more importantly increased TV revenue. There is nothing worse, even if it was the best football in the world, than watching St Mirren v. Dunfermline with the stadium half empty and lacking atmosphere. There is a danger of course that TV might not always be the cash cow it is now for (mainly EPL) football so there is always a danger of moving too quickly and still losing out. Sadly there seems to no quick fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambomuzz Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Personally, I think representatives of the SPL/SFA, should be going out to Primary schools, throughout Edinburgh, Killie, Motherwell, Hamilton, all these towns, cities ect They should be asking the kids who they support, and if a child gives the answer "rangers" or "celtic" when living in say inverness, They should maybe be questioned as to why they support them, and not their local team. Make the younger kids think about why they support a team, before they are too old to be bothered changing the alliances. It will take years of work, but maybe it will help to reduce the amount of children that just support rangers or celtic "cos they win stuff" Either that or we all start going at rabbits, then refuse our kids to support the old firm and only Hearts so we have a massive support in 10 years time..../ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Most Scottish football clubs have existed for a century or more - more than half are small communty based clubs with a local fan base however small playing away and surviving within their means as best they can - they take next to nothing away from the TV or Sponsorship money that is generated so saying we have too many clubs is a simplistic and incorrect diagnosis of the problems imo. The biggest problem is the unequal and unfair distribution of money in the top 20 or so full time Scottish clubs. The Top 2 are awarded proportionately far too much, the rest of the SPL then take what's left which although isn't great is still 10 times more than the top full-time clubs in the SFL get. We need a to division of full time clubs that accommodates the majority of our 20 or so full time clubs for the majority of the time. There will always be some that yo-yo however as things currently stand almost 60% of our bigger to medium size Scottish clubs spend as much time or more outside the SPL (top division) as in it - they also receive a much smaller share of the pie financially and that is what is slowly but steadily eroding our game year on year. Other factors like too many repetitive fixtures caused by small league sizes, unequal and unfair sharing of revenues, not enough clubs in the top league earning a bigger share of the pie are what's also needing sorted - those at the top level need to give up more and take less in order to strengthen those just below them in order to make the league more competitive and interesting to fans - which will have a knock on effect on broadcasters interest levels .... but nobody wants to concede anything meaningful so we have the worst solutions in many cases ie the the failed 10 team proposal founded on continued greed and feeding off Old Firm gravy train and scraps from the top table. Pathetic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Hearts_Runner Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I think the English Premiership is a factor too. Television has taken over and almost everyone has an English/TV team. I know a couple of 'Jambos' who now never go to games and 'support' Man United and basically just watch games in the pub, they still say they are Hearts fans but whenever I ask them about coming to a game and getting them a ticket they don't bother. Just an example, there are probably thousands of others. My cousin in Perth supports Arsenal, his Dad is a St J season ticket holder but my cousin is not interested and follows Arsenal even though he has never been to a game and has been to London about once?! The premiership & champions league are on all the time and get huge coverage in Scotland on tv and in the press. The internet too has meant people can follow the larger clubs from down South much easier and as others have said the ticket prices in Scotland in general add up to too much when compared to sky subscription and watching in the comfort of someones home or down the pub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steakpiesupper Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 just a thought, but say we could somehow join the championship in england, we would probably be able to attract crowds of 25000 against most of them. would this not be more enjoyable than watching the current paint dry in the hope of an occasional european game. not a short term solution, buta thought for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 After 120 years of separate Football League Systems between England and Scotland why the clamour all of a sudden for the Old Firm, Hearts or whoever to join the English Leagues? 1. The English don't need us and don't want us - they've got enough of their own big clubs already. 2. UEFA & FIFA wouldn't sanction it either - national leagues & associations are the foundations of football as it currently exists - allowing teams to cross borders at their own picking & choosing would open a pandoras box - what would then stop portuguese clubs wanting to play in spain, dutch & austrian clubs playing in germany, eastern european clubs wanting to play in western european leagues etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMac Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 just a thought, but say we could somehow join the championship in england, we would probably be able to attract crowds of 25000 against most of them. would this not be more enjoyable than watching the current paint dry in the hope of an occasional european game. not a short term solution, buta thought for the future. We would be slaughtered in the Championship.... lets start in league 1.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots civil war Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 this is the united kingdom though chief.......this place aint got foundations like any other the welsh are in the english league arent they? as predictions are ,the scottish game is dying....no doubt about that theres an asrehole at the helm as well,doncaster..........a panderer to to the scum,and hes based in the west n all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Reports of the death of the Scottish game are exaggerated. Even stripping out OF attendances and their contribution to away crowds, SPL crowds compare very favourably with most if not all leagues in comparably sized countries, and are better than many with bigger populations. Even crowds in our First Division would not look out of place in a number of top leagues in comparably sized countries. If as I suspect most of the missing 600,000 (or to be less sensational about 2500 per game on average) are from Parkhead and Ibrox, then that is excellent news for the Scottish game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Fredrickson Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Most of what I was going to say has already been covered: Cost ? middle of a recession (Wallace Mercer allowed UB40 card holders in as concessions in the early 1980s): :Hidden cost eg booking fees :Stale product ? playing the same teams 3 -7 times a season :Pres bias with the old firm :Perceived old firm bias in the running of the Scottish game :Unfair distribution of wealth :Voting rules of 11-1 required for changes hinder progression :No reserve league hinders player development :Too much live football on TV :Not enough games kicking off at 3pm on a Saturday 2 points I would like to through into the mix are: :Regionalised lower leagues would reduce travel costs for clubs and supporters and provide more derbies, which should/would result in more interest/higher attendances :Cheaper season tickets, not on a game by game basis. Hartlepool had an average attendance of 2,736 last season. The club decided that for this season to offer season tickets at ?100 IF 4000 were sold. This has proved very popular with approx 6000 sales. I talked with someone in their commercial department who says that match day walk up prices are the same as last season but a season ticket works out at just over ?4 per game! They expect a huge increase in merchandise and food and drink sales too. The main thing though is that the team will be playing to near sell out crowds every week (if the season ticket holders all turn up!) Motherwell tried to reduce ticket prices on a game by game basis which failed as fans would pick and choose their games and if memory serves me right, the reduction was only for CAT B games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAberdeen Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 The fundamental problem is that SPL is losing its value as an entertainment industry. Why on earth you choose to spend your 30 quids on SPL when you can watch EPL, Serie A or La Liga on telly, the leagues with more quality, publicity and bigger name players? You must have special reason to attend games, which so far SPL has failed to deliver. Also lowering price won't be solution, as you still have to spend your two hours without fun, here opportunity cost incurs. Without raising entertainment value, that will just lead income decline. As seen in a banner at a recent La Liga game "we don't want to be SPL", SPL is now the best example of long-standing duopoly which has driven fans away. But our 05/06 clearly showed that if fans saw the change, they will come back to stadium. There is radical reform needed, and the reform has to be drastic enough to change people's perception on SPL. I don't think league expansion or fairer income distribution would go far enough, because still OF will win most of games and occupy top two anyway. Instead, proposals to give non-OF fans realistic hope of winning titles, like Championship Play-off though already much criticised, are urgently needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 That old chestnut. The only reason they can do such cheap gates is - sponsorship receipts (?573m) and broadcast income (?594m) - The SPL is like chicken feed compared to that. It's also unfair to compare anything in Scotland to anything in Germany due to the relative size of economy and population. In conclusion - The SPL cannot recreate ANYTHING the bundesliga does in terms of pricing. This is simply not true - if you knew anything of the history of the Bundesliga over the last decade then you'd know it was the collapse of their Major TV & Media partner that forced them to completely re-think their approach to club football, this also co-incided with some relative failures by German national teams so there was a dual plan and approach implemented by the DVB (German FA), the Bundesliga & the Clubs. After the collapse of their major TV company and TV deal many of the clubs were financially stricken and heavily indebted. This forced them to slash costs - sell/release a number of higher earning players including higher earning foreign imports. To balance the books and make their wages affordable most clubs simply had to focus on playing younger german or local players who generally earned a lot less than previous high earning star players were. Financial rules were put in place so clubs had to be run on a sustainable basis, couldn't operate at huge lossses each year and limited the amount and type of debt the clubs could carry. Clubs had to present a workable and realistic financial plan and produce financial results to be granted a Bundesliga license each season. After some failures of German national teams the German FA identified the high number of foreign players as impacting and reducing the chances for younger German players to develop at the top clubs - the financial crisis presented the opportunity for the clubs to re-focus on producing & bringing through their own players, and increased the amount of german players playing at the top league clubs available to the national team managers. The other thing the financial crisis did was get the clubs to earn the support and financial support and backing of the fans - the fans got supporter friendly kick off times & schedules, attractive ticket pricing options including some lower priced tickets and standing areas, clubs helped subsidise travelling supporters etc in order to help fill stadiums and boost league ticket sales. Gradually German football rebuilt itself, the clubs finances improved, the German national teams improved, a financial levelling off helped to make the league more competitive and exciting - which also helped to bring back the fans and earn the clubs commercial vastly increased support from TV & Media deals and sponsorship. Of course the German football market and economy is much bigger than Scotlands but I don't see any of these principles and actions that couldn't be replicated in Scotland IF the will was there? 1. Financial rules to ensure clubs financial stability and avoid reckless spending, losses and debts from distorting the league and damaging clubs finances. 2. Voluntary agreements on including more home produced players and and national team players. 3. Supporter friendly match scheduling and kick off times, attractive ticketing pricing options including low price and standing area options - subsidised travel for away fans. 4. Increasing fan ownership of clubs - limiting commercial control of clubs 51% / 49% Why can't any of this be tried in Scotland on a league wide basis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I'd say that the Bundesliga is by far the best League in Europe and probably the World now as well. It's exciting, fast-flowing and unpredictable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots civil war Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 As seen in a banner at a recent La Liga game "we don't want to be SPL", eh what? the game is messed up here... no atmosphere,no goals etc duopoly by the squirm first thing to do however is to slash admission fees and let the kids in for free....watching empty seats is a massive nono allow clubs to set up their own bars so punters can have a slight beverage as well,more income and more animated crowds end the booing culture n all,anyone caught booing ,kicked out on their arse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whyskey Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Most Scottish football clubs have existed for a century or more - more than half are small communty based clubs with a local fan base however small playing away and surviving within their means as best they can - they take next to nothing away from the TV or Sponsorship money that is generated so saying we have too many clubs is a simplistic and incorrect diagnosis of the problems imo. The biggest problem is the unequal and unfair distribution of money in the top 20 or so full time Scottish clubs. The Top 2 are awarded proportionately far too much, the rest of the SPL then take what's left which although isn't great is still 10 times more than the top full-time clubs in the SFL get. We need a to division of full time clubs that accommodates the majority of our 20 or so full time clubs for the majority of the time. There will always be some that yo-yo however as things currently stand almost 60% of our bigger to medium size Scottish clubs spend as much time or more outside the SPL (top division) as in it - they also receive a much smaller share of the pie financially and that is what is slowly but steadily eroding our game year on year. Other factors like too many repetitive fixtures caused by small league sizes, unequal and unfair sharing of revenues, not enough clubs in the top league earning a bigger share of the pie are what's also needing sorted - those at the top level need to give up more and take less in order to strengthen those just below them in order to make the league more competitive and interesting to fans - which will have a knock on effect on broadcasters interest levels .... but nobody wants to concede anything meaningful so we have the worst solutions in many cases ie the the failed 10 team proposal founded on continued greed and feeding off Old Firm gravy train and scraps from the top table. Pathetic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 neil doncaster doesn't seem to be worried. he dismissed this report as being negative and the arguments being made as "too simple". it's all about the recession innit. yeah thanks nero. i don't suppose we'll ever get anyone of any clout to examine whether falling attendances could conceivably have anything to do with the fact that our entire game is centred around, run for the benefit of, and run by the old firm. too much to ask that anyone might ponder whether or not people are turning their backs on attending matches because they are sick and tired of the peripheral shite that the old firm bring along with them. not long now until the game dies altogether. this is the same neil doncaster that said the financial implication to the scottish game of rangers champions league exit was worrying. now a quick calculation from solidarity payments the SPL lost circa ?1M, but losing 600,000 fans at say ?20 a ticket is losing ?12M or ?1.2M a season which is worse than losing the uefa solidarity payments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whyskey Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Agree with what you say, Unequal share of revenue is the biggest single cause. If gate money was devided more evenly say one third given to home team and two thirds into a pot and destributed evenly between all twelve clubs also all tv and any other money from other sources added to. Then we will have a more even playing field. Just my view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Mugabe Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I think the old chestnut of summer football has to be considered not just from a weather/quality of football perspective, but also a viewer's standpoint as well. Take the derby on the 28th, it's going up directly against Man United - Arsenal. I can't imagine anyone outside of Hearts and Hibs fans watching our game in preference of the English game. Ratings prove that we won't beat any Premier League game for viewers. Therefore, why not have our league on at a time where we aren't competing against them for a good while and make use of the publicity we would be afforded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysthereinspirit Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 i think a distinction should be clearly drawn between old firm dominance and unfair old firm dominance. i have no problem whatsoever with the old firm being dominant on the field of play, as long as everything is fair and above board. something approaching a level playing field. nobody should complain about them being the dominant clubs because they are the biggest and best resourced clubs. it's only natural. the unfair dominance is the way the game is run for their benefit, and to the detriment of everyone else. i believe it's this underlying policy that drives people away. the berserk situation of the majority of the television revenue being given to the top two in the league. on the face of it, it's something open to all clubs to compete for... but in practice it's a virtually unachievable target and remains the sole preserve of the old firm... thus widening the gap year on year. stunting any possible hope that other clubs can begin to shin up the greasy pole. This. The 600,00 missing also agree. (I know there's not really 600,00 individuals missing) There are die hard football fans and football fans. The football fans will not waste their money week in and out on an inferior product thats gives their team no chance of winning due to blatant cheating by the association running the game and the officials charged with supervising them. Unfortunately our game in Scotland is run by numbnuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 This is simply not true - if you knew anything of the history of the Bundesliga over the last decade then you'd know it was the collapse of their Major TV & Media partner that forced them to completely re-think their approach to club football, this also co-incided with some relative failures by German national teams so there was a dual plan and approach implemented by the DVB (German FA), the Bundesliga & the Clubs. After the collapse of their major TV company and TV deal many of the clubs were financially stricken and heavily indebted. This forced them to slash costs - sell/release a number of higher earning players including higher earning foreign imports. To balance the books and make their wages affordable most clubs simply had to focus on playing younger german or local players who generally earned a lot less than previous high earning star players were. Financial rules were put in place so clubs had to be run on a sustainable basis, couldn't operate at huge lossses each year and limited the amount and type of debt the clubs could carry. Clubs had to present a workable and realistic financial plan and produce financial results to be granted a Bundesliga license each season. After some failures of German national teams the German FA identified the high number of foreign players as impacting and reducing the chances for younger German players to develop at the top clubs - the financial crisis presented the opportunity for the clubs to re-focus on producing & bringing through their own players, and increased the amount of german players playing at the top league clubs available to the national team managers. The other thing the financial crisis did was get the clubs to earn the support and financial support and backing of the fans - the fans got supporter friendly kick off times & schedules, attractive ticket pricing options including some lower priced tickets and standing areas, clubs helped subsidise travelling supporters etc in order to help fill stadiums and boost league ticket sales. Gradually German football rebuilt itself, the clubs finances improved, the German national teams improved, a financial levelling off helped to make the league more competitive and exciting - which also helped to bring back the fans and earn the clubs commercial vastly increased support from TV & Media deals and sponsorship. Of course the German football market and economy is much bigger than Scotlands but I don't see any of these principles and actions that couldn't be replicated in Scotland IF the will was there? 1. Financial rules to ensure clubs financial stability and avoid reckless spending, losses and debts from distorting the league and damaging clubs finances. 2. Voluntary agreements on including more home produced players and and national team players. 3. Supporter friendly match scheduling and kick off times, attractive ticketing pricing options including low price and standing area options - subsidised travel for away fans. 4. Increasing fan ownership of clubs - limiting commercial control of clubs 51% / 49% Why can't any of this be tried in Scotland on a league wide basis? Although i'd emphasise a point (that you touched on slightly) that after the relative failures of the national team, a lot of work was put into the setting up of nationwide grass roots stuff, local academies and the like in order to accelerate the development of young talent. The products of which can be seen now with the likes of Oezil, Klose (to a lesser extent), Neuer et al. I've been to the Westfalonstadion (much cooler name than Signal Iduna Park) several times to see BvB (who also won the Bundesliga last year) and I have to say that they are matchdays like no other. The atmosphere is jumping inside and outside the ground. The massive fanzone outside the stadium is open to all. It's just a bloody great day out. And that's before you even see the game. graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavySlaveJambo Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 the welsh are in the english league arent they? There are six welsh teams in the English pyramid. Swansea, Cardiff, Wrexham, Newport County, Methyr Town, and Colwyn Bay . And they were in there prior to the formation of the League of Wales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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