Footballfirst Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Interesting artice in the Herald about Celtic being invited to play in the inaugural U19 Champions League next season. http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/celtic/champions-league-for-celtic-s-next-generation-1.1104570 I think it's a great idea for developing youngsters into a highly competitive internaional competition. However, what is disappointing is that Celtic have been given a 3 year invite as Scotland's sole representative. Once again, it appears that the bigger teams are deliberately preventing the smaller clubs from growing and creating competition within their own domestic setup. I guess that Celtic will pick up some decent money out of this, while their players get the development benefit. The initial cometition is open to players born in 1993 or later. That is next seasons U19 age group where I believe Hearts are equally strong, with Holt, Walker, Smith, Mullen, McHattie, Hamilton, O'Hara and King all recent Scotland caps The downside for Celtic is that they have been drawn against Barcelona, Manchester City and Marseille in their group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eckauskas Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Hope they get utterly fecked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I mentioned this a couple of months ago and said it is creating a dangerous precedent and is designed purely for the richer clubs to get richer. By monopolising the best youth players they remove the last main chance many clubs can realistically compete with bigger clubs. It also is a major benefit for these clubs trying to get the best youngsters, already Tony Watt, the 16 year old striker from Airdrie United said he moved to Celtic because of this competition. As you say it would be a good competition if it was open to the clubs that finished top of their countries respective youth league, but Celtic has been given a 3 year invite, a look at the other teams suggests it is similar across other countries, this years winner of the FA youth league is Everton, the year before Arsenal. But neither teams are in it, only Liverpool, Manchester United and Manchester City. As I say it is a worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross21 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 As you say it would be a good competition if it was open to the clubs that finished top of their countries respective youth league, but Celtic has been given a 3 year invite, a look at the other teams suggests it is similar across other countries, this years winner of the FA youth league is Everton, the year before Arsenal. But neither teams are in it, only Liverpool, Manchester United and Manchester City. As I say it is a worry. Can see where your coming from but it's a difficult one - how many of Celtic's winning team will actually take part this coming year? Be like Hearts getting there & Denis, Ogelby, Hamilton etc not being able to play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 Can see where your coming from but it's a difficult one - how many of Celtic's winning team will actually take part this coming year? Be like Hearts getting there & Denis, Ogelby, Hamilton etc not being able to play Celtic released half their league winning side, but the eligible age group is the following year's crop which includes the Twardzik twins and as JiG said, Tony Watt.My concern is more to do with the exclusion of all the other Scottish sides in future years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Can see where your coming from but it's a difficult one - how many of Celtic's winning team will actually take part this coming year? Be like Hearts getting there & Denis, Ogelby, Hamilton etc not being able to play I know, I guess you could make the actual competition under 20 (like how UEFA under 19 teams play in the FIFA under 20 world cup a year later.) Point being it is a competition designed for those who could raise maximum interest rather then achievement thus it is making certain clubs richer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dr. Pepper Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Hearts U19 finished second in the league did they not? Could have had Champions League football :rough: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wright1989 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 It?s the beginning of the end for smaller clubs. They are ruining football piece by piece. Until clubs stand up it's going to get more and more unbalanced. Thus driving fans away. I'm not happy about this one bit. :verymad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 if you think things thru then it doesn't really affect Hearts youth development in any negative way unless you think winning U19 or other youth tournaments is a goal in itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I know, I guess you could make the actual competition under 20 (like how UEFA under 19 teams play in the FIFA under 20 world cup a year later.) Point being it is a competition designed for those who could raise maximum interest rather then achievement thus it is making certain clubs richer. How is it making certain clubs richer? There will be no TV money for an under 19's Champs League. Don't really see where the money in this tournament is coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 How is it making certain clubs richer? There will be no TV money for an under 19's Champs League. Don't really see where the money in this tournament is coming from? Sorry it is not so obvious unless you have followed this from the beginning, it is organised by Abu Dhabi (hence the final being there) and is the brainchild of the owners of Man City. So there is cash incentives to attract all these clubs to the competition, it is not a UEFA competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted June 2, 2011 Author Share Posted June 2, 2011 if you think things thru then it doesn't really affect Hearts youth development in any negative way unless you think winning U19 or other youth tournaments is a goal in itself. I think that the restricted invitation list only serves to create an elite for the youth sides of the elite senior sides. The inevitable result is that the top talent among our youngsters will gravitate towards that elite earlier that currently happens and will subsequently reduce the potential of teams like Hearts, Hibs Aberdeen etc of being able to attract the best youngsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigO Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I think that the restricted invitation list only serves to create an elite for the youth sides of the elite senior sides. The inevitable result is that the top talent among our youngsters will gravitate towards that elite earlier that currently happens and will subsequently reduce the potential of teams like Hearts, Hibs Aberdeen etc of being able to attract the best youngsters. Yep - it's pretty mingin but hardly surprising. Maybe UEFA need to counteract by setting up a real champs league for u19s? Make it a bit like a world cup so it's all played within a couple of weeks or something... Good sponsorship to atleast cover teams' costs, hopefully a bit more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I think that the restricted invitation list only serves to create an elite for the youth sides of the elite senior sides. The inevitable result is that the top talent among our youngsters will gravitate towards that elite earlier that currently happens and will subsequently reduce the potential of teams like Hearts, Hibs Aberdeen etc of being able to attract the best youngsters. FF this tournament might attract some players to those clubs involved however the fundamentals of Hearts 'attractiveness' or selling propostion to young players remains unchanged - in a direct contest between say Hearts, Celtic, Liverpool or Manchester United a young player is faced with the choice of what provides the most immediate reward in terms of prestige and/or possibly financial payment versus what is my best long term prospect of establishing a professional football career, becoming a first team player, becoming an international player etc. I don't see anything that's changed fundamentally for Hearts or Hibs etc compared to the likes of Celtic and the big English clubs - if players are going to be enticed by such an "elite" tournament or it's supposed prestige then in all likelyhood they were never going to be the kind of young player that Hearts could convince to shun the 'glamour' clubs anyway - also rangers and Celtic have their own historical and family reasons why some young players are interested in joining those clubs. Hearts just have to keep on doing what they've always been doing and offering the prospect of a good football career with visibile examples of successful proteges to 1st team, SPL/SFL and of course International levels - that is how WE attract players not by being ELITE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross21 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 FF this tournament might attract some players to those clubs involved however the fundamentals of Hearts 'attractiveness' or selling propostion to young players remains unchanged - in a direct contest between say Hearts, Celtic, Liverpool or Manchester United a young player is faced with the choice of what provides the most immediate reward in terms of prestige and/or possibly financial payment versus what is my best long term prospect of establishing a professional football career, becoming a first team player, becoming an international player etc. I don't see anything that's changed fundamentally for Hearts or Hibs etc compared to the likes of Celtic and the big English clubs - if players are going to be enticed by such an "elite" tournament or it's supposed prestige then in all likelyhood they were never going to be the kind of young player that Hearts could convince to shun the 'glamour' clubs anyway - also rangers and Celtic have their own historical and family reasons why some young players are interested in joining those clubs. Hearts just have to keep on doing what they've always been doing and offering the prospect of a good football career with visibile examples of successful proteges to 1st team, SPL/SFL and of course International levels - that is how WE attract players not by being ELITE. Tony Watt, the 16year old Celtic signed from Airdrie has already said this tournament was a major reason he signed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Tony Watt, the 16year old Celtic signed from Airdrie has already said this tournament was a major reason he signed i think someone like Anthony Watt from west of Scotland would always be Celtic minded plus the fact Celtic offered Airdrie almost ?100K for his signature ....... look iam not saying it won't attract some players but if kids are intent on signing for Celtic or Liverpool or Man Utd then these are not the kids that Hearts attract anyway unless we can convince them their long term prospects are better served at Riccarton than Lennoxtown but if they are chasing the glamour and prestige of being with an elite club at age 16/17 then we wouldn't have got them anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigO Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 i think someone like Anthony Watt from west of Scotland would always be Celtic minded plus the fact Celtic offered Airdrie almost ?100K for his signature ....... look iam not saying it won't attract some players but if kids are intent on signing for Celtic or Liverpool or Man Utd then these are not the kids that Hearts attract anyway unless we can convince them their long term prospects are better served at Riccarton than Lennoxtown but if they are chasing the glamour and prestige of being with an elite club at age 16/17 then we wouldn't have got them anyway. Charlie, the thing is that if things like this were based on merit, we'd have a chanc e of getting there. Then we'd have a chance of attracting better players, getting more money into the HYDC etc and it could only be a good thing. The more our youth set-up grows, the more our club can grow, so the more prestige - and money - it can attract the better. Not to even mentioning what playing in that type of environment could do for the lads we already have. Elitism is killing football and it's a disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Charlie, the thing is that if things like this were based on merit, we'd have a chanc e of getting there. Then we'd have a chance of attracting better players, getting more money into the HYDC etc and it could only be a good thing. The more our youth set-up grows, the more our club can grow, so the more prestige - and money - it can attract the better. Not to even mentioning what playing in that type of environment could do for the lads we already have. Elitism is killing football and it's a disgrace. IBH at the end of the day - some kids goal might be to play in an elite U19 presitge tournament but their career advancement doesn't end there does it? Hearts and Hibs can usually always show far higher numbers of youth players having graduated and establishing themselves as 1st team players or SPL players than Celtic etc were the chances of breaking through and being given opportunities are far fewer except for the very best - every year Celtic release dozens of young players even though for the last decade they've had easily the most successful reserve and youth set up their 'failure' rate is as high or higher than everybody elses. Some of these kids do end up at Hibs or Airdrie or St Mirren or Swindon etc but those who remain and play at Celtic park is a lower percentage than Tynecastle or Easter Road - THAT is how and why we can attract players not participation in certain youth tournaments for the 'elite' clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The People's Chimp Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 if you think things thru then it doesn't really affect Hearts youth development in any negative way unless you think winning U19 or other youth tournaments is a goal in itself. It does though. It will help them attract better players, who might otherwise have been content to develop at other clubs. It will help their youth players develop international/european experience, and may well help those players mature as people as well. It's win/win for celtic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Tolbooth Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Sorry it is not so obvious unless you have followed this from the beginning, it is organised by Abu Dhabi (hence the final being there) and is the brainchild of the owners of Man City. So there is cash incentives to attract all these clubs to the competition, it is not a UEFA competition. I totally appreciate what you're saying JiG (as always), however if it's not a UEFA run tournament, then I fail to see what we can do about it. At first I thought it was some sort of official run tournament for the champions of the U19's league, but seeing as it's invitation only, then Hearts are nowhere near fashionable, or big enough, to get an invite to something as prestigious as this, no matter if we win the U19 league for the next ten seasons. It's just shit though, and epitomises everything that is wrong with World football these days, one day the whole game will go bust and need to start again, and it won't be the fault of the erseholes running it, it never is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davesmith Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 The tournament has to start somewhere. If 3 years down the line it is still invitational only then I can see the argument but at the moment I don't think inviting what is the best youth team in Scotland on recent history to represent Scotland is unfair and the other teams involved have a decent pedigree. I would also expect that many teams will not want to take part due to the cost and therefore invitational system is inevitable. We come from a league with no reserves as it's too expensive so are many clubs going to want to commit to a compulsory international tournament for their u19 team and the costs that will involve. Lets hope celtic do scotland proud and the tournament becomes established and three years down the line the true champions of each league are involved. I have no doubt Sky or ESPN will happily pay for the tournament and sponsorship as well if it becomes established and competitive. Might give some smaller clubs a boost as well if teams scout opposition in advance as it means more scottish kids being seen by international scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Sorry it is not so obvious unless you have followed this from the beginning, it is organised by Abu Dhabi (hence the final being there) and is the brainchild of the owners of Man City. So there is cash incentives to attract all these clubs to the competition, it is not a UEFA competition. Ah right. As John says, if it's not a UEFA licensed tournament I don't really see what we can complain about. Abu Dhabi owe us nothing, unfortunately! Perhaps the idea is that 3 years down the line, once it has established itself, UEFA will take it on and open it up to other clubs? Not sure how I feel about these youth Champions League tournaments anyway. Development is king at that age. Not playing in a tournament with a fancy name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTH Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Celtic have been given a 3 year invite as Scotland's sole representative. That is a terrible decision. It will probably make up some youngsters minds that they want to sign for Celtic rather than anyone else, just because they would have the opportunity of playing in this competition. Why does it have to be an "invite" at the moment, we have a good U19 league structure going here, surely any places should be decided on merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Le Clos Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Clus should be questionning the decision to give teams 3 year invites. Unless a good enough reason is given (which there isn't) then FA's should step in to stop the clubs. It's the FA's responsibility to develop football for all affiliated clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 It's an invitational 'friendly' tournament at this stage for the 'elite' clubs that has no official status - why is anybody even concerned about this at present? If it becomes an established UEFA tournament then entry would have to be on merit .... of far greater concern for our youth development activities is bridging the gap between youth team level and first team level and making sure our best young players get proper development and game time beyond U19 level - that has far more immediate and long lasting consequences than if some kids someday might go to an elite club to play in this tourney instead of joining Hearts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 if you think things thru then it doesn't really affect Hearts youth development in any negative way unless you think winning U19 or other youth tournaments is a goal in itself. I think playing against higher level opposition would help our youth development. I also think that getting young players used to the idea that they can beat Celtic and Rangers and win things is a good thing - obviously developing the best players for the senior team is the top priority, but if you do that well, often winning tournaments will come with that. I would also be more inclined to make an effort to win the U19 league if it got entry to the U19 Champions League, because playing in that could really help our young players imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsychocAndy Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Kids that attracted the interest of "bigger" clubs sign for the likes of us because they have a better chance of 1st team fitbaw. That is the selling point. Do you want to play in some tourney against great kids from big clubs or do you want to play with the men and earn a move to a big club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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