kamac1 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 senior and junior teams can get the oppo rtunity to play in the scottish cup. They should also get the chance to feature in the scottish leagues with two teams dropping out each season to be replaced with teams from a lower level. This would give the game a greater level of interest. Not one team from the borders, east and midlothian are represented in the scottish league set up, that's a disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Dizzle Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I agree, we really should open up the football league and maybe even make the divisions bigger. There are some Junior teams that would get bigger crowds and do really well if they had the chance to play at a higher level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tynecastle Valhalla Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 agree completely. would make it interesting. some of the clubs may struggle a little financially initially though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siphiwe Tshabalala Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 yes yes and yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 senior and junior teams can get the oppo rtunity to play in the scottish cup. They should also get the chance to feature in the scottish leagues with two teams dropping out each season to be replaced with teams from a lower level. This would give the game a greater level of interest. Not one team from the borders, east and midlothian are represented in the scottish league set up, that's a disgrace. The average crowd in the Southern Counties is about 50-100. My home town team Threave Rovers who are regulars in the SC seem to have more committee members than people that turn up to watch a standard game against Creetown. Creetown has a population of 677. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I agree, we really should open up the football league and maybe even make the divisions bigger. There are some Junior teams that would get bigger crowds and do really well if they had the chance to play at a higher level. How many Junior teams have shown an appetite to join the senior leagues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I agree, we really should open up the football league and maybe even make the divisions bigger. There are some Junior teams that would get bigger crowds and do really well if they had the chance to play at a higher level. I agree with the theory, but there are also Junior clubs who have little or no interest in this. Many already get bigger crowds than most, bar the top of the first division, so have absolutely no financial incentive to play in the Third or Second Divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Dizzle Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 How many Junior teams have shown an appetite to join the senior leagues? No idea, I just like the idea of a more open league structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I agree with the theory, but there are also Junior clubs who have little or no interest in this. Many already get bigger crowds than most, bar the top of the first division, so have absolutely no financial incentive to play in the Third or Second Divisions. This - something that so many people seem to ignore. Any spare money kicking around should be put towards youth football than potentially giving Junior clubs financial incentives to move out of something they really don't want to do. I can't see how a pyramid system would work in Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 No idea, I just like the idea of a more open league structure. I tried a quick Google search but couldn't find anything. Unless they were excluded from election when leagues were expanded, defunct clubs replaced, I can't think of any junior clubs putting themselves forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamac1 Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 I tried a quick Google search but couldn't find anything. Unless they were excluded from election when leagues were expanded, defunct clubs replaced, I can't think of any junior clubs putting themselves forward. I note that several others on kickback welcomed the idea of other teams being admitted into the scottish league structure. You never mentioned the senior teams they deserve a chance as well Time for change, the fans want to see new clubs not a 10 team premier league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Dizzle Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I tried a quick Google search but couldn't find anything. Unless they were excluded from election when leagues were expanded, defunct clubs replaced, I can't think of any junior clubs putting themselves forward. I understand that there is limited room for them to grow and they would be unable to be at the top of that particular league structure. I don't really like the closed shop nature of our football league, but if it's not wanted by Junior teams then I guess that's the end of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I note that several others on kickback welcomed the idea of other teams being admitted into the scottish league structure. You never mentioned the senior teams they deserve a chance as well Time for change, the fans want to see new clubs not a 10 team premier league I can't talk about all the senior teams but the southern counties crowds are extremely low and any Lothian Thistle games I've been to when I stayed round the corner in Gorgie had smaller crowds than school games. I'd be very careful on what we wish for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamac1 Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 I understand that there is limited room for them to grow and they would be unable to be at the top of that particular league structure. I don't really like the closed shop nature of our football league, but if it's not wanted by Junior teams then I guess that's the end of it. detty 29 reminds me of jack steedman who was the chairman at clydebank. He resisted teams from the highland league etc. ICT have just had a pretty good season and are partial to emptying the old firm out of cup competitions, and there should be similar opportunities given to other teams in scotland. gretna were a breath of fresh air. I still maitain majority of fans want to see new clubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Dizzle Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I think Detty has made a lot of good points, what he's saying is true, that there isn't widespread support for Junior teams to open up their leagues with promotion/relegation to the football league. I'm not sure if it's a big fish, small pond kind of thing, but there clearly isn't a huge amount of support for it. My personal feeling is that it would be good to see the leagues opened up to give these teams a chance to work their way up. But the top sides would leave the junior leagues and enter the football league, and then what? They're not going to be at the top of the football structure any more and they wouldn't get the fans to push themselves up to the top, it would also leave the Junior leages bereft of all the big sides that used to play in them and full of the rubbish. I can totally see why they'd reject the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 detty 29 reminds me of jack steedman who was the chairman at clydebank. He resisted teams from the highland league etc. ICT have just had a pretty good season and are partial to emptying the old firm out of cup competitions, and there should be similar opportunities given to other teams in scotland. gretna were a breath of fresh air. I still maitain majority of fans want to see new clubs No I am not. What I'm saying is that to my knowledge there is no appetite within the junior ranks to move up/sideways and I'm concerned what is left to come forward from the seniors and what would they really have to offer. Maybe Spartans or an East Lothian side, maybe one team from the Borders. Hardly meriting a full blown pyramid system. I'd also recommend that anyone in favour of a pyramid system goes to a few senior games. Personally I can only talk of the Southern Counties and the odd Edinburgh team but I'm not sure there is much more scope for clubs to come forward. Gretna come on- how not to set up a football club. And I'd never deny that Inverness should have a top league club. I don't know what the answer is - maybe the worst club over a 2/3 year period has to seek some form of re-election. I'd be thoroughly embarrassed for Scottish football if my hometwon club Threave Rovers made it to the league set up. And god forbid if Dalbeattie Star or St. Cuthberts Wanderers made it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_R Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 A pyramid system would work in scotland. imo. IF it was implemented correctly. As in England (below the conference divisions) a regional set up with slightly larger division was put in place. this would mean junior teams getting involved would still be working within a similiar set up, playing teams relatively near by. Until such time they made substanial improve on and off the field to progress. This mean a massive shake up of all divisions, particularly below the first division. However I believe this is exactally what scottish football needs. I'd propose: 16 team SPL 14 team 1st 3 regional divisions (with playoff places) Regional sections/juniors below this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearts151 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 how does it work in england if a large amount of teams from the same region finish bottom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley_ Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I'm completely in favour of a pyramid system. The point is that the further you go down the pyramid, the more local the leagues become. So, the clubs that are in the Juniors/Seniors at the moment would stay at that level and be playing other clubs from their area of the country unless they got promoted (they don't have to accept promotion). The South of Scotland League is not a good example in this. It's basically an amateur league and the weakest of the Senior leagues. If you were to merge the Juniors and Seniors then it would probably be like this: East East Juniors/East of Scotland League (there are more junior clubs with potential but a couple of EoS clubs like Spartans could do well) West West Juniors South of Scotland League (the South league could be incorporated at the bottom of the West Juniors structure. Currently at Level 3/4 of the West is the Central League and the Ayrshire League. There are two Central League divisions and 1 Ayrshire League division. The SoS League could form a second division with the Ayrshire League. North Highland League North Juniors (The Highland League is accepted as the best league and the North Juniors could form below it). The current Junior/Senior non-league clubs would still be playing the same teams until there was promotion/relegation. Regardless of what happens they can always remain at that level if they choose and at that level they will always be playing teams from their area of the country. Too many people seem to take the attitude of "The clubs can't grow" or "The clubs can't move up a level" etc. but that's the whole point of a pyramid system. Clubs find their level and if they don't grow then they can remain where they are right now. The first priority has to be the merging of the Seniors and Juniors. It doesn't matter how many teams could potentially make the step-up to the league at the moment. They're at the level they're at and they could be denied promotion if they didn't meet certain criteria. Of course you can make the points about the alleged lack of desire of the Juniors to join a pyramid system etc. but I fail to understand how any fan can be against the idea of a pyramid system. I'm sure if you looked across the European leagues then the majority will have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I'm completely in favour of a pyramid system. The point is that the further you go down the pyramid, the more local the leagues become. So, the clubs that are in the Juniors/Seniors at the moment would stay at that level and be playing other clubs from their area of the country unless they got promoted (they don't have to accept promotion). The South of Scotland League is not a good example in this. It's basically an amateur league and the weakest of the Senior leagues. If you were to merge the Juniors and Seniors then it would probably be like this: East East Juniors/East of Scotland League (there are more junior clubs with potential but a couple of EoS clubs like Spartans could do well) West West Juniors South of Scotland League (the South league could be incorporated at the bottom of the West Juniors structure. Currently at Level 3/4 of the West is the Central League and the Ayrshire League. There are two Central League divisions and 1 Ayrshire League division. The SoS League could form a second division with the Ayrshire League. North Highland League North Juniors (The Highland League is accepted as the best league and the North Juniors could form below it). The current Junior/Senior non-league clubs would still be playing the same teams until there was promotion/relegation. Regardless of what happens they can always remain at that level if they choose and at that level they will always be playing teams from their area of the country. Too many people seem to take the attitude of "The clubs can't grow" or "The clubs can't move up a level" etc. but that's the whole point of a pyramid system. Clubs find their level and if they don't grow then they can remain where they are right now. The first priority has to be the merging of the Seniors and Juniors. It doesn't matter how many teams could potentially make the step-up to the league at the moment. They're at the level they're at and they could be denied promotion if they didn't meet certain criteria. Of course you can make the points about the alleged lack of desire of the Juniors to join a pyramid system etc. but I fail to understand how any fan can be against the idea of a pyramid system. I'm sure if you looked across the European leagues then the majority will have one. My son plays for a team in the "Hellenic League" which is at step 5 and 6 in the English pyramid.His team "Purton FC" is in the Hellenic West which is at step 6, They can win promotion to The Hellenic Premier which is at step 5. In The Hellenic West, payment is unusual, at the Premier level it is common. A couple of seasons ago Purton won the league but because they have no lights (And residents are comitted to preventing them ever getting any)they could not move up. As a consequence they lost players. As a club they have reached their natural level and have no real interest in moving up. They usually get about 80-90 people watching a game on a Saturday. In recent seasons some clubs such as Swindon Supermarine have made significant investment in their grounds, pay reasonable wages to part time players and have moved up to Southern League status. They were not obliged to do so and there is probably a limit to their ambitions. The pyramid allows the teams who fancy it to have a crack and if it does not work out they drop back down to their natural level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartsfc_fan Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Slightly changing the topic here...does anyone know what sort of crowds the likes of Linlithgow Rose and Spartans get for most home games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_R Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Slightly changing the topic here...does anyone know what sort of crowds the likes of Linlithgow Rose and Spartans get for most home games? I'd hazard a guess at a few hundred. Teams through west Pollok, Sauchie, Camelon used to pull pretty large crowds a few years back. I'd guess they must still get a fair few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 senior and junior teams can get the oppo rtunity to play in the scottish cup. They should also get the chance to feature in the scottish leagues with two teams dropping out each season to be replaced with teams from a lower level. This would give the game a greater level of interest. Not one team from the borders, east and midlothian are represented in the scottish league set up, that's a disgrace. The reason being is financial,there is more cash in the higher junior league than there is in the lower SFA leagues. Another is how you do it,is it the best teams from every region play in a play off and the top two get promoted,and what then do you do with the teams that have been relegated,what league do you put them in? To many ifs and buts,but one thing that is for sure is you couldn't have east of Scotland teams and say Aberdeen-shire teams all playing in the same league,back to finances again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott herbertson Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 My son plays for a team in the "Hellenic League" which is at step 5 and 6 in the English pyramid.His team "Purton FC" is in the Hellenic West which is at step 6, They can win promotion to The Hellenic Premier which is at step 5. In The Hellenic West, payment is unusual, at the Premier level it is common. A couple of seasons ago Purton won the league but because they have no lights (And residents are comitted to preventing them ever getting any)they could not move up. As a consequence they lost players. As a club they have reached their natural level and have no real interest in moving up. They usually get about 80-90 people watching a game on a Saturday. In recent seasons some clubs such as Swindon Supermarine have made significant investment in their grounds, pay reasonable wages to part time players and have moved up to Southern League status. They were not obliged to do so and there is probably a limit to their ambitions. The pyramid allows the teams who fancy it to have a crack and if it does not work out they drop back down to their natural level. Exactly. I am going to Margate vs Kingstonion in the ryman Premier on Saturday - a win would put Ks in the play offs. Probably one more step is alll they would want to take at present. Whereas AFC Wimbledon (who play at teh same ground) want to go all the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Currahee! Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 When there was an opening for a new team to enter the league Gala Fairydean applied as they always do. Hearts and Hibs both voted against them as they thought they'd take fans away. As if I'd go and watch them over Hearts. There are a few problems in the Borders though. Rugby is one but in Selkirk where they're 2 football teams, Selkirk are in the East of Scotland Premier with the likes of Spartans etc. and Selkirk Victoria are an amateur feeder team for Selkirk. More people watch the Vics than Selkirk as they play with locals. Its the same in Gala. More people watch Gala Rovers than Fairydean due to the same reason. I'd love to see a pyramid system in Scotland. We badly need a change to freshen things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamac1 Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 No I am not. What I'm saying is that to my knowledge there is no appetite within the junior ranks to move up/sideways and I'm concerned what is left to come forward from the seniors and what would they really have to offer. Maybe Spartans or an East Lothian side, maybe one team from the Borders. Hardly meriting a full blown pyramid system. I'd also recommend that anyone in favour of a pyramid system goes to a few senior games. Personally I can only talk of the Southern Counties and the odd Edinburgh team but I'm not sure there is much more scope for clubs to come forward. Gretna come on- how not to set up a football club. And I'd never deny that Inverness should have a top league club. I don't know what the answer is - maybe the worst club over a 2/3 year period has to seek some form of re-election. I'd be thoroughly embarrassed for Scottish football if my hometwon club Threave Rovers made it to the league set up. And god forbid if Dalbeattie Star or St. Cuthberts Wanderers made it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamac1 Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 No I am not. What I'm saying is that to my knowledge there is no appetite within the junior ranks to move up/sideways and I'm concerned what is left to come forward from the seniors and what would they really have to offer. Maybe Spartans or an East Lothian side, maybe one team from the Borders. Hardly meriting a full blown pyramid system. I'd also recommend that anyone in favour of a pyramid system goes to a few senior games. Personally I can only talk of the Southern Counties and the odd Edinburgh team but I'm not sure there is much more scope for clubs to come forward. Gretna come on- how not to set up a football club. And I'd never deny that Inverness should have a top league club. I don't know what the answer is - maybe the worst club over a 2/3 year period has to seek some form of re-election. I'd be thoroughly embarrassed for Scottish football if my hometwon club Threave Rovers made it to the league set up. And god forbid if Dalbeattie Star or St. Cuthberts Wanderers made it. gretna had a very charismatic chairman who ploughed plenty of cash into various sports and teams. The gretna cup final team got an amazing level of applause from the hearts fans at hampden park, as did their manager and chairman that afternoon. it was a shame the club went bust as their chairman was seriously ill at that time. Top bloke and what he achieved with Gretna was fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 how does it work in england if a large amount of teams from the same region finish bottom? I know that in some pyramid structures teams at the edge of one region get shunted over to another region to make space. Meaning that teams can travel up, down or sideways through the league structure. In Scotland it would mean that team from somewhere in the middle of Scotland like Denny or Bannockburn that was playing just outside the national league might find itself in the North, South, East or West This would mean having to travel to the Moray Firth, The Solway Firth, Berwickshire or Oban but only one of those destinations in any one season untilthey got promoted into the national leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie1874 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I'd hazard a guess at a few hundred. Teams through west Pollok, Sauchie, Camelon used to pull pretty large crowds a few years back. I'd guess they must still get a fair few. Like senior football, junior footballs attendance has dropped over the years. Pollok attendance is now on average below 500, a few seasons ago it was 650-700 around 25% down in the last few years. on the flip side a game v clydebank in the scottish only two seasons ago did have 1500 at it. Most junior teams have a core support and if they are sucessful in junior football they can birng in some fairweather supporters as its only ?5 a game. if the top junior clubs went senior then they would at best become mid table 2nd div. Fair weather supporters would be put off as they wont be seeing their local side win trophies and it also wont be ?5 a game. Also to play senior football you have to pay the SFA a fee, which is one of the 2nd/3rd div teams reasons why they didnt want junior sides in the scottish cup - taking prize money and not contributing to the pot. For those reasons you would find a lot of junior teams against the pyramid system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Like senior football, junior footballs attendance has dropped over the years. Pollok attendance is now on average below 500, a few seasons ago it was 650-700 around 25% down in the last few years. on the flip side a game v clydebank in the scottish only two seasons ago did have 1500 at it. Most junior teams have a core support and if they are sucessful in junior football they can birng in some fairweather supporters as its only ?5 a game. if the top junior clubs went senior then they would at best become mid table 2nd div. Fair weather supporters would be put off as they wont be seeing their local side win trophies and it also wont be ?5 a game. Also to play senior football you have to pay the SFA a fee, which is one of the 2nd/3rd div teams reasons why they didnt want junior sides in the scottish cup - taking prize money and not contributing to the pot. For those reasons you would find a lot of junior teams against the pyramid system Correct,also the grounds have to be up to some sort off spec,where as junior grounds don't(costing more money). A few mates of mine are on the Preston Athletic board they say it costs quite a good few quid to stay in the seniors,money that a few clubs don't have,shame really because little teams like PAFC try to bring communities together,the place was buzzing when we played the likes of Gretna,Airdrie and Stenny,christ we took 2 buses through to Larbert to see them play East Stirling as well as others going through in their own cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southside1874 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I remember Clyde almost got promoted to the SPL. Someone I know was shocked to see the directors quite happy that they lost. He works with Clyde part time and was gutted. He went up to the board room as usual expecting a gloomy mood and was shocked at what he seen. The directors told him they felt they couldn't afford to offer the wages and compete financially only to be relegated the next season. It was a risk they didn't want to take. Clyde afterward went into decline matching the ambition of the directors. Maybe they should have been willing to offer their fans what they desired. To get back on track, I would drop half the teams from the third and set them against the best of the rest as a conference type league. The bottom of the second demoted and the second and third bottom going into play offs with second and third in the "conference" league. This would inject a much needed enthusiasm into Scottish football. There should be parachute payments to relegated teams so they don't fear the promotion initially. After reading this thread, it made me think of the Scottish mentality of not being over enamoured with success but hating defeat. You would have larger crowds in the bottom six if Hamilton didn't have a huge deficit. You would have larger crowds in Scottish football if your team was about to drop out the league.......your local town was about to drop. Bring on the pyramid and inject something into the game. Use the fear of defeat to attract the crowds. Thats all.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobmisterdobster Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Why not have college sports like they do in the US? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavySlaveJambo Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Also are the East of Scotland/South of Scotland/Highland Leagues not senior leagues than can be a bottom rung on a restructuring pyramid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 It seems madness to run parallell league sytems such as the East Of Scotland League and the East Juniors etc. A pyramid with the lower levels run on a regional basis would allow teams who have some ambition and can fund raise enthusiastically to get as high as they can while others who just want to represent their local community are free to pursue that option. Anyway Ascot United V Purton in the Semi - Final of the Hellenic Supplementary Cup tonight, I'll bet I have to pay as well. http://www.hellenicleague.co.uk/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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