Carl Fredrickson Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Having been knocked out of 3 cups in under a week and with no trophies for a few years, is it time for Arsene to leave Arsenal? He has put together a good time (some may say great) but has failed to win anything since 2005 (?) Should a club like Arsenal measure their success by honours won or by the style of football they play? Will the history books reflect the nice football they play or will people be more interested in who won what? AW has not spent the transfer budget that is available to him which may be seen as astute budgeting but if this money had been invested in a couple of decent players then they may have won more trophies. Thoughts - should he stay or should he go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 St Johnstone for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Fredrickson Posted March 12, 2011 Author Share Posted March 12, 2011 Having been knocked out of 3 cups in under a week Should have said in under 2 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobmisterdobster Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Stan Collymore had the right idea on talksport earlier. No Wenger should not be sacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigolo-Aunt Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 It would be madness if he was sacked. That said, he does need to re look at his signing policy. It cant keep going on the "next season the team will have matured" talk that you hear at the end of another season where they have faltered at the business end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Now's not the time but I'd say that Arsenal need to set some sort of deadline for the completion of his building process. They can't keep saying next year season after season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf's Mate Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Problem is just as he seems to be getting a team together they lose key players and I don't see that changing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 No. You do realise we're talking about someone whose team is three points off the top with a game in hand, and a favourable run-in?! And however many problems they're having, such is the vulnerability of others, it's perfectly possible they could win the title. I've always regarded it as unfair to hold Arsenal to the same standards as we do United or Chelsea - principally because their wage bill is so much lower. It's fourth highest right now, some way behind Chelsea, City and United. And because of the need to keep the wage bill down, Arsenal can't go out and buy anything like as much quality as United or Chelsea, England's two dominant clubs for years now, have frequently been able to. Moreover, while the OP suggests Wenger's not spent his transfer budget, how do we know this money's available to him? Just because he says it is doesn't cut it; Fergie insists he has about ?80m available, and it's clearly bollocks. Both clubs have shareholders to protect; therefore both managers might well pretend all is rosy financially when it actually isn't. But... but... have Arsenal actually progressed at all since sweeping all before them during the first half of 2007/8? It doesn't look like it from where I'm sat. I'll never understand why Wenger sold Flamini or Hleb: neither have been adequately replaced. And tonight, for maybe the first time, I started wondering exactly where he's taking the club. No top side should be as ludicrously easy to beat as that: United employed the most basic tactics imaginable with desperately limited personnel, yet won at a canter. Arsenal were a frippery: almost unbelievably naive - and what must exasperate their fans is that the holes in the side are so obvious, yet Wenger seems utterly oblivious to them. Something Eldar mentioned on the United-Arsenal thread rang true. All Wenger's players are so slight: they're built like lightweights in a league of middleweights and super-middleweights. That being the case, no wonder they keep having injury crises at this point of the season; no wonder they're so easily bullied in crunch games; no wonder they keep bottling it. And if it's actually a question of physique and conditioning, there's every chance they'll keep smashing into the same glass ceiling year-in, year-out. Getting knocked out of the Champions League by Barcelona or FA Cup at Old Trafford are not and never will be sacking offences: Wenger still brings massively more good than bad to that club. But if they fail to win the title, and if they go through next season not winning anything either, then I think it'd be time for a change. For the first time in his Arsenal career, real questions are being asked of him by his own supporters; he's under genuine pressure. The test will be whether he can deal with it and, like other great managers, prove the doubters wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
south morocco Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 If he had a decent solid back 4 and keeper,he'd have a side capable of challenging for the next few years,right now,he doesn't , its that simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Chat Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 If they had 2 centre halfs like Adams & Keown and a keeper like Seaman they would have pissed the treble this year. That's why he's failed - signing shite like Kosceilny and Squillaci just because they can apparently pass the ball. Arsenal have players like Fabregas and Nasri who are happy to come deep and receive 5 yard passes from their defenders so why doesn't he just sign 2 bruising central defenders ? Edit: Lawlson's point about their players being saps is valid too btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 You do have to wonder sometimes? Has Wenger actually lost sight of what it takes to be winners? Sounds ridiculous because he does keep Arsenal at the forefront of the EPl and Europe but as another year passes without silverware its bound to wear thin with a very , very big club like Arsenal. They EXPECT to win things. It isn`t a case of them being a team from nowhere who are grateful to be where they are, they are a club with a great history and tradition for winning as well as producing good teams. Its all there in front of everyone. The Arsenal fans have had enough. They`d probably like to shed a few of their ball players for a more balanced type who`ll give them more of an edge......like Man Utd. Even tonight, they didn`t quite have the guts and that`s been their downfall for long enough..you just knew they didn`t believe in themselves. Its a catch 22. Watch decent football from August to March then see your season crumble because your team doesn`t have the bottle...but you still love the way your team plays!!! Glad i like Spurs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjl Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 If they had 2 centre halfs like Adams & Keown and a keeper like Seaman they would have pissed the treble this year. That's why he's failed - signing shite like Kosceilny and Squillaci just because they can apparently pass the ball. Arsenal have players like Fabregas and Nasri who are happy to come deep and receive 5 yard passes from their defenders so why doesn't he just sign 2 bruising central defenders ? Edit: Lawlson's point about their players being saps is valid too btw. Good post Accurate and to the point. Vermaillen being injured all season hasn't helped much either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 He has to change or leave. Not won anything for 6 years and constantly builds team of weak young laddies who can pass the ball in pretty little triangles but can't perform in big games. Proper goalie, two hard-man centre backs and a midfield enforcer is what Arsenal have been crying out for as long as anyone can reemebr and Arsene is making himself look more and more of a tit with every season that goes by without him adressing these obvious weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Flamini & Hleb left because AC Milan & Barca were prepared to pay them far higher wages than Arsenal were prepared to offer them, I think Arsenal at the time wouldn't go above approx ?60-70K per week an have kept a strict wage policy - other clubs were offering the players much higher terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester™ Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 He has to change or leave. Not won anything for 6 years and constantly builds team of weak young laddies who can pass the ball in pretty little triangles but can't perform in big games. Proper goalie, two hard-man centre backs and a midfield enforcer is what Arsenal have been crying out for as long as anyone can reemebr and Arsene is making himself look more and more of a tit with every season that goes by without him adressing these obvious weaknesses. I concur with this post. Wenger needs a good shake, regardless if they win the league or not. Vermaelen being out hasnt helped but they miss some real grit in their team. He's got far too many 'number ten's' and he's becoming blinded by his pursuit of 'winning in the right way'. If it was another league, I could maybe see his point. If Arsenal win nothing this year, the fans will be calling for his head I reckon. There were murmurings in places last season and they seem to be gaining strength now. If they go trophyless again, I can see it becoming decidedly uncomfortable for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SectionDJambo Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 They can be a great side to watch, but also a frustrating one. Try to walk the ball into the net too often. Too easily brushed aside by any side who up the physical side. Never replaced Seaman, Adams, Keown and even Parlour. Work horses who helped the team have a good mix which worked. The "young team" thing is wearing thin too. Manchester United won the EPL with a very young team, albeit with a bit of good quality experience mixed in. Borussia Dortmund look like being champions this year with the youngest side they have ever had. Wenger needs someone close to him to tell him to stop being such a blockhead when it comes to the obvious slight change in direction he needs to go to win a trophy. Their run in includes an away match at Spurs. Manchester United probably have the better run in now, although they do have Chelsea, but at home. They also don't bottle big games too often, especially when they have the scent of success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Flamini & Hleb left because AC Milan & Barca were prepared to pay them far higher wages than Arsenal were prepared to offer them, I think Arsenal at the time wouldn't go above approx ?60-70K per week an have kept a strict wage policy - other clubs were offering the players much higher terms. They have both been replaced too - Wiltshire for Flamini. And Nasri/Arshavin for Hleb. The player who Wenger has never replaced properly is Henry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveofthegame Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Arsene Lennon's crying a river does my head in. But apparently his team have "potential," its just waiting to come out(Like Eoin "potential" Jess.) and has been every season for the last 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Tolbooth Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 No. You do realise we're talking about someone whose team is three points off the top with a game in hand, and a favourable run-in?! And however many problems they're having, such is the vulnerability of others, it's perfectly possible they could win the title. A fair point, but this is Arsenal we're talking about here and they have the heart of a mouse, they have no bottle whatsoever when it comes to getting a result when it matters, and Wenger has taken them as far as he can and is on the way back down again I feel. Arsenal are only 3 points off the top because of Chelsea's failings, and Man City being the biggest flop in history, even Manure have been poor by their own standards because had they been having a normal season then they would have been out of sight by now, it's their league to throw away and an Arsenal side which has no fight ain't going to change that, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FORTHCLYDE Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Arsenal are the most well run club in England. They have 60,000 every home game in a stadium with numerous restaurants etc. However there interest on the loan to build the stadium is I think ?13M a year which they manage. They have a fantastic youth set up which gets the best young players from abroad i.e. France. However Wenger does have some flaws he needs to spend ?12M on Graig Gordon or similar to sort out the goalkeeping problem once and for all. He also needs to buy an English centre half and an English centre forward as the foreigners he has are good but not good enough to get over the finish line (although they still could win this year). Aresenal have too many top players Wenger needs more hungry British players. When Craig Brown was Scotland manager he had Tommy Boyd, Calderwood, Tosh etc, good but not world class that's what Aresenal need players to blend with the artists every team needs hod carriers Arsenal have too many pretty players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 A fair point, but this is Arsenal we're talking about here and they have the heart of a mouse, they have no bottle whatsoever when it comes to getting a result when it matters, and Wenger has taken them as far as he can and is on the way back down again I feel. Arsenal are only 3 points off the top because of Chelsea's failings, and Man City being the biggest flop in history, even Manure have been poor by their own standards because had they been having a normal season then they would have been out of sight by now, it's their league to throw away and an Arsenal side which has no fight ain't going to change that, sadly. I agree with this. Arsenal might be three points off the top of the division with a better run-in, but every single one of us knows that they won't win the title. 100 per cent guaranteed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feeno Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 No. You do realise we're talking about someone whose team is three points off the top with a game in hand, and a favourable run-in?! And however many problems they're having, such is the vulnerability of others, it's perfectly possible they could win the title. I've always regarded it as unfair to hold Arsenal to the same standards as we do United or Chelsea - principally because their wage bill is so much lower. It's fourth highest right now, some way behind Chelsea, City and United. And because of the need to keep the wage bill down, Arsenal can't go out and buy anything like as much quality as United or Chelsea, England's two dominant clubs for years now, have frequently been able to. Moreover, while the OP suggests Wenger's not spent his transfer budget, how do we know this money's available to him? Just because he says it is doesn't cut it; Fergie insists he has about ?80m available, and it's clearly bollocks. Both clubs have shareholders to protect; therefore both managers might well pretend all is rosy financially when it actually isn't. But... but... have Arsenal actually progressed at all since sweeping all before them during the first half of 2007/8? It doesn't look like it from where I'm sat. I'll never understand why Wenger sold Flamini or Hleb: neither have been adequately replaced. And tonight, for maybe the first time, I started wondering exactly where he's taking the club. No top side should be as ludicrously easy to beat as that: United employed the most basic tactics imaginable with desperately limited personnel, yet won at a canter. Arsenal were a frippery: almost unbelievably naive - and what must exasperate their fans is that the holes in the side are so obvious, yet Wenger seems utterly oblivious to them. Something Eldar mentioned on the United-Arsenal thread rang true. All Wenger's players are so slight: they're built like lightweights in a league of middleweights and super-middleweights. That being the case, no wonder they keep having injury crises at this point of the season; no wonder they're so easily bullied in crunch games; no wonder they keep bottling it. And if it's actually a question of physique and conditioning, there's every chance they'll keep smashing into the same glass ceiling year-in, year-out. Getting knocked out of the Champions League by Barcelona or FA Cup at Old Trafford are not and never will be sacking offences: Wenger still brings massively more good than bad to that club. But if they fail to win the title, and if they go through next season not winning anything either, then I think it'd be time for a change. For the first time in his Arsenal career, real questions are being asked of him by his own supporters; he's under genuine pressure. The test will be whether he can deal with it and, like other great managers, prove the doubters wrong. Flamini left under freedom of contract, Hleb wanted to move to Barca. What can you do? Anyone asking for Wenger to be sacked is an idiot, its as simple as that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Gin Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 No danger should he be sacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Poor transfer policy. Using tactics which have failed him time and time again. Very questionable team line-ups on a regular basis. If they fall away in the title race then his time should be up IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboSean Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Wenger is doing a great job and must stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavsy Van Gaverson Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 No, he just needs to sign a top keeper and centre half and they would have a great chance of winning all the English competitions. Whether he actually does though is a different matter. They will also have Vermalean (sp) back next season, who has been a big miss for them. They also need Fabregas fully fit. It is not as bad at Arsenal as is being made out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 They have both been replaced too - Wiltshire for Flamini. And Nasri/Arshavin for Hleb. The player who Wenger has never replaced properly is Henry. More like Viera whose never been replaced I'd say but the likes of Bentder just won't do up front. I'll be amazed if that Arsenal team wins the EPL. It's like other posters say, full of saps. Man Utd were there for the taking yesterday but Arsenal just don't have the minerals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Le Clos Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Wenger is doing a great job and must stay. While I applaud what he's trying to do, on what grounds can you say he is doing a great job? Arguably the worst Man U side since before Fergie won his first title. No Ronaldo, no Tevez, Vidic and Ferdinand have hardly played together, Rooney has been poor. A Chelsea side who have suffered crisis after crisis; lots of injuries, problems with players personal lives which must have an impact on their performance, not replacing players like Carvalho, Abramovic not spending (alothough that apperas to have changed). Liverpool, do I really need to say anything? Man City flattering to deceive. All of the "big teams" with the exception of Tottenham are the weakest they have been in a long time. Wenegr's been banging on about potential for years, surely this is the time to prove that all this potential counts for something? Trophies have been there for the taking, they will never have as good an opportunity as this season to dominate and once again they have come up short. Like I said, I may not like Wenger, but I like his footballing philosophies. But football is about success, and 6 years is too long without a trophey. People might not like to hear it, but unless Arsenal can win the league, which I don't think they will, then maybe a change of manager would do them the world of good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 While I applaud what he's trying to do, on what grounds can you say he is doing a great job? JamboSean's a Chelsea fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Le Clos Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 JamboSean's a Chelsea fan. This one's for me My points are valid though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 This one's for me My points are valid though. Oh, they are, they are. The only one of the top 5 genuinely punching their weight right now are Tottenham, who are basically operating at their limit until they move to a much bigger stadium. What it'll say about the EPL if a United side this poor still win it; or worse, if United and Chelsea finish 1-2 yet again, I dread to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Le Clos Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Oh, they are, they are. The only one of the top 5 genuinely punching their weight right now are Tottenham, who are basically operating at their limit until they move to a much bigger stadium. What it'll say about the EPL if a United side this poor still win it; or worse, if United and Chelsea finish 1-2 yet again, I dread to think. I sometimes think the comparisons between Barce and Arsenal are true. They are very similar in their footballing styles and philosophies. The one thing that's Arsenal lack compared to Barce is their mental strength. And I believe this comes from the fact that Barce are a team made of a lot of Catalan players. Arsenal buy players with potential but no affiliation to the club. With the exception of Wilshere there's not one player in that side who for me, will have Arsenal in his blood so to speak. While they care if they lose, they don't care in the same way that a John Terry, Gary Neville or Steven Gerrard would. Or a Valdes, Puyol, Pique, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquetts, Pedro, Bojan do. You get the feeling that Ferguson's instills a sense of pride in all his players. There's heart and passion in all of them, even if they are foreign. I often look at Arsenal and think that's what's missing. Yesterday being a case in point, Man U wanted it more than Arsenal. The attitude is as important as their lack of players who are able to dominate a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I sometimes think the comparisons between Barce and Arsenal are true. They are very similar in their footballing styles and philosophies. The one thing that's Arsenal lack compared to Barce is their mental strength. And I believe this comes from the fact that Barce are a team made of a lot of Catalan players. Arsenal buy players with potential but no affiliation to the club. With the exception of Wilshere there's not one player in that side who for me, will have Arsenal in his blood so to speak. While they care if they lose, they don't care in the same way that a John Terry, Gary Neville or Steven Gerrard would. Or a Valdes, Puyol, Pique, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquetts, Pedro, Bojan do. You get the feeling that Ferguson's instills a sense of pride in all his players. There's heart and passion in all of them, even if they are foreign. I often look at Arsenal and think that's what's missing. Yesterday being a case in point, Man U wanted it more than Arsenal. The attitude is as important as their lack of players who are able to dominate a game. I think there's some truth in this. But where would Barca be without Puyol? Arsenal desperately need an Adams type to lead them. Plus, Barca's success under Guardiola is down to how hard they work when they lose the ball. Watching Arsenal yesterday, they were perennially in danger of being run the length of the pitch whenever they lost possession, and Diaby's positional play in particular was embarrassing. As a team, they just don't work hard enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboSean Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 This one's for me My points are valid though. They certainly are. The future of Wenger is a strange one. He receives plaudits from most people in the game for the way Arsenal play, yet they never deliver. This season was the big chance for a trophy. The League Cup final has had an effect on their confidence, there's no doubt about it. The squad of players need one trophy to get them going and I think they'll kick on from there. Thing is, they'll not get a better chance than the Birmingham game. I question Wengers transfer policy as well. You'll never win big trophies if you continue to sign only French players who are good at 5's and not physical enough for the English game. I'd like to see the last 5 players Wenger bought who didn't have a French connection some where. When he does go the next manager will have to win something right away or produce football as close to Wengers sides as possible. People say replacing Fergie will be hard, but I think the next Arsenal manager will have as much pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigolo-Aunt Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I sometimes think the comparisons between Barce and Arsenal are true. They are very similar in their footballing styles and philosophies. The one thing that's Arsenal lack compared to Barce is their mental strength. And I believe this comes from the fact that Barce are a team made of a lot of Catalan players. Arsenal buy players with potential but no affiliation to the club. With the exception of Wilshere there's not one player in that side who for me, will have Arsenal in his blood so to speak. While they care if they lose, they don't care in the same way that a John Terry, Gary Neville or Steven Gerrard would. Or a Valdes, Puyol, Pique, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquetts, Pedro, Bojan do. You get the feeling that Ferguson's instills a sense of pride in all his players. There's heart and passion in all of them, even if they are foreign. I often look at Arsenal and think that's what's missing. Yesterday being a case in point, Man U wanted it more than Arsenal. The attitude is as important as their lack of players who are able to dominate a game. Whilst you make a lot of valid points, its worth noting that Barcelona will go out and spend 20 million plus on a player if they feel he improves the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I sometimes think the comparisons between Barce and Arsenal are true. They are very similar in their footballing styles and philosophies. The one thing that's Arsenal lack compared to Barce is their mental strength. And I believe this comes from the fact that Barce are a team made of a lot of Catalan players. Arsenal buy players with potential but no affiliation to the club. With the exception of Wilshere there's not one player in that side who for me, will have Arsenal in his blood so to speak. While they care if they lose, they don't care in the same way that a John Terry, Gary Neville or Steven Gerrard would. Or a Valdes, Puyol, Pique, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquetts, Pedro, Bojan do. You get the feeling that Ferguson's instills a sense of pride in all his players. There's heart and passion in all of them, even if they are foreign. I often look at Arsenal and think that's what's missing. Yesterday being a case in point, Man U wanted it more than Arsenal. The attitude is as important as their lack of players who are able to dominate a game. Maybe this Barca team but they have a history of flattering to deceive too. I'm not sure that I'd say Arsenal players don't mind losing as much as others. It's more the style they play is fine when they're a class above their opponents or things are going well, but they seem totally incapable of digging anything out when things go against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 When he does go the next manager will have to win something right away or produce football as close to Wengers sides as possible. People say replacing Fergie will be hard, but I think the next Arsenal manager will have as much pressure. Totally agree. It's an odd one: nowadays, Arsenal's support is made up of younger fans accustomed to success between 1998 and 2004, so expect it to happen all the time; and older generations who remember when their club was famed for awful football, but being the most cussed, pragmatic club in the game. Somehow, Wenger turned the entire club on its head, and hurtled way over to the opposite extreme - but I think older fans have always been uncomfortable with this, and whereas Arsenal's balance between rock solid defence, steel and creativity in the middle and terrifying attacking play was perfect in 2002, I already felt they'd gone too far by 2004, even when they when unbeaten all season. Now, they're completely off the scale. Successful football sides are all about balance: the ability to totally outplay a side one match, put a foot in and grind it out in the next. Ferguson and Mourinho have always understood this; Wenger just doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 They certainly are. The future of Wenger is a strange one. He receives plaudits from most people in the game for the way Arsenal play, yet they never deliver. This season was the big chance for a trophy. The League Cup final has had an effect on their confidence, there's no doubt about it. The squad of players need one trophy to get them going and I think they'll kick on from there. Thing is, they'll not get a better chance than the Birmingham game. I question Wengers transfer policy as well. You'll never win big trophies if you continue to sign only French players who are good at 5's and not physical enough for the English game. I'd like to see the last 5 players Wenger bought who didn't have a French connection some where. When he does go the next manager will have to win something right away or produce football as close to Wengers sides as possible. People say replacing Fergie will be hard, but I think the next Arsenal manager will have as much pressure. I don't think it's true to say they never deliver. His Arsenal teams have played some of the best football I've seen and won plenty trophies however he does seem to have lost it a little bit. For some reason he can't seem to see the holes that need plugged ie a couple of nastier players in defence and the midfield and a better keeper. I get annoyed watching Arsenal. I'd hate to support them at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Le Clos Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Whilst you make a lot of valid points, its worth noting that Barcelona will go out and spend 20 million plus on a player if they feel he improves the team. True but more importantly they buy the right player. Wenger spent money this season, he just didn't buy players who were up to it. When you think Vidic cost Man U ?7million it puts into perspective how bad Wenger's defensive signings have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMc Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 One of the craziest OPs in a long, long time. Wenger is Arsenal. Look at the state of Liverpool. Chopping and changing has not worked well for them at all. It is easy to criticise Wenger for not splashing cash on established stars, but I'm not sure his board would see it that way. The move to the new stadium was not cheap and Wenger has ensured that his club are not in the financial trouble that many of the top EPL teams are in. Incoming transfers are just one part of transfer policy, balancing the books is another, as is knowing when to sell players. Wenger has regularly shown he is a master at this. He sold Henry for good money when he appeared to be world class. What did he do next? Maybe one good season at Barca, then the bench, then the Major League. Veira? He was never the same in Italy as he was in England. This has happened over and over. He got the best out of Ljungberg, Pires, Overmars, Petit etc before letting them go. Anelka is one of the very few how have gone on to do better things after they left. Just because he has not regularly splashed mega-bucks does not mean that he has failed to bring world class players to Arsenal. Henry, Pires, Viera, Anelka, Nasri, Fabregas, Flamini, Van Persie, Walcott, Vermaalan, Cole - none of these players were established stars at the point Wenger brought them into the team. All have flourished at the highest level of world football. He looked on track to beat "the official best team in the world" if a crazy refereeing decision had not changed the course of the game. He has been agonisingly close to winning the Champions League when he was let down by his goalkeeper. He would most likely have had another cup winners medal if a goalie had not let him down again. Not being able to pick a world class keeper may have been a legitimate weakness but this is very difficult to do. Alex Ferguson struggled to do this for many years after Schmeichel left. We will see how he does replacing Van der Saar. The other thing is, who would replace him? Ferguson? Mourinho? Guardiola? No chance. Are there any other coaches on a par with those I have mentioned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I get annoyed watching Arsenal. I'd hate to support them at the moment. I was thinking that last night. They must be the most exasperating, unbelievably frustrating team to support. I think all football fans want a side that works hard, makes the most of its capabilities and above all, doesn't beat itself. No team in any league at whatever level can succeed without mental strength and winning big games; and Arsenal are supposed to be a football club. Not an art gallery or something. Mind you, it's not lost on me that pressure is suddenly building on Wenger at a time Spurs have just gone further than them in the CL. If Tottenham actually did the unthinkable and won the European Cup, he'll be on a very sticky wicket indeed unless Arsenal can recover and snaffle the league title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 One of the craziest OPs in a long, long time. Wenger is Arsenal. Look at the state of Liverpool. Chopping and changing has not worked well for them at all. It is easy to criticise Wenger for not splashing cash on established stars, but I'm not sure his board would see it that way. The move to the new stadium was not cheap and Wenger has ensured that his club are not in the financial trouble that many of the top EPL teams are in. Incoming transfers are just one part of transfer policy, balancing the books is another, as is knowing when to sell players. Wenger has regularly shown he is a master at this. He sold Henry for good money when he appeared to be world class. What did he do next? Maybe one good season at Barca, then the bench, then the Major League. Veira? He was never the same in Italy as he was in England. This has happened over and over. He got the best out of Ljungberg, Pires, Overmars, Petit etc before letting them go. Anelka is one of the very few how have gone on to do better things after they left. Just because he has not regularly splashed mega-bucks does not mean that he has failed to bring world class players to Arsenal. Henry, Pires, Viera, Anelka, Nasri, Fabregas, Flamini, Van Persie, Walcott, Vermaalan, Cole - none of these players were established stars at the point Wenger brought them into the team. All have flourished at the highest level of world football. He looked on track to beat "the official best team in the world" if a crazy refereeing decision had not changed the course of the game. He has been agonisingly close to winning the Champions League when he was let down by his goalkeeper. He would most likely have had another cup winners medal if a goalie had not let him down again. Not being able to pick a world class keeper may have been a legitimate weakness but this is very difficult to do. Alex Ferguson struggled to do this for many years after Schmeichel left. We will see how he does replacing Van der Saar. The other thing is, who would replace him? Ferguson? Mourinho? Guardiola? No chance. Are there any other coaches on a par with those I have mentioned? Except everyone could see Lehmann was unreliable and dodgy; and it's been clear as day for years that Almunia just isn't good enough. Before signing Lehmann, Wenger persisted with an overweight, miles past his best Seaman, who should've been replaced by 2000 at the latest. How can a club as big as Arsenal have not signed a better 'keeper? There was a chap named Niemi who'd have done a much better job for them for a start; Craig Gordon would be better than Almunia too, however much he's been struggling lately. In recent years, what about someone like Brad Friedel? It can't be that difficult. Then you look at the defence. Most of Arsenal's success under Wenger was achieved via the legacy of George Graham's back four. Why can't he sign better central defenders? Looking at Arsenal's defence right now, there's something unique about their players; I can't imagine any other leading English club signing any of them TBH. They're all ball players - but none are leaders. You know what kind of player I think they really miss? Even though he was totally unheralded, someone like Ray Parlour. He lived and breathed Arsenal Football Club, and had a competitive edge and passion which so many of their current side seem to lack. When he joined Chelsea, Mourinho knew the importance of players who really understood the club, so built the whole side around Terry and Lampard. Then look at Liverpool with Gerrard and Carragher; then look at United with Scholes, Giggs and, until recently, Gary Neville. Where are these players in Arsenal's case? What makes them so different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF11JamTart Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Totally agree. It's an odd one: nowadays, Arsenal's support is made up of younger fans accustomed to success between 1998 and 2004, so expect it to happen all the time; and older generations who remember when their club was famed for awful football, but being the most cussed, pragmatic club in the game. Somehow, Wenger turned the entire club on its head, and hurtled way over to the opposite extreme - but I think older fans have always been uncomfortable with this, and whereas Arsenal's balance between rock solid defence, steel and creativity in the middle and terrifying attacking play was perfect in 2002, I already felt they'd gone too far by 2004, even when they when unbeaten all season. Now, they're completely off the scale. Successful football sides are all about balance: the ability to totally outplay a side one match, put a foot in and grind it out in the next. Ferguson and Mourinho have always understood this; Wenger just doesn't. Funny you mention that. A lot of Arsenal fans I know have done a bit of revisionism and completely blanked out the George Graham days of being dull-as-sin but pretty effective. Listening to them banging on about a rich pedigree of beautiful creativity, you'd think that it was THEY who taught Brazil 1970 how to play. (Whereas we all know that it was Hibs). And it's these guys who are getting cranky and exasperated about "nice passing / no silverware". Arsene needs to buy some dogged "winners". Like he inherited from George (Seaman, Keown, Adams, Parlour, Wright, etc.). Not pretty, but they provided the foundation for the luxury-items. Christ, that Man Utd team yesterday was pretty attritional, but it was the right team for the fixture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I was thinking that last night. They must be the most exasperating, unbelievably frustrating team to support. I think all football fans want a side that works hard, makes the most of its capabilities and above all, doesn't beat itself. No team in any league at whatever level can succeed without mental strength and winning big games; and Arsenal are supposed to be a football club. Not an art gallery or something. Mind you, it's not lost on me that pressure is suddenly building on Wenger at a time Spurs have just gone further than them in the CL. If Tottenham actually did the unthinkable and won the European Cup, he'll be on a very sticky wicket indeed unless Arsenal can recover and snaffle the league title. It's just all so tippy tappy fancy bullsh*t with no urgency at all. Even at 2-0 down you wouldn't have thought Arsenal were losing. Dicking around at the back and constantly coming inside when their better efforts came from the wings. I was getting proper wound up watching them. That was as poor a Man Utd team as I've ever seen but they didn't have to even work that hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF11JamTart Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 It's just all so tippy tappy fancy bullsh*t with no urgency at all. Even at 2-0 down you wouldn't have thought Arsenal were losing. Dicking around at the back and constantly coming inside when their better efforts came from the wings. I was getting proper wound up watching them. That was as poor a Man Utd team as I've ever seen but they didn't have to even work that hard. yup. tippy tappy fancy bullsh*t with neither urgency nor much penetration. OK, Van Der Saar made some good saves, but that Utd could have been there for the taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Wiseau Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 If Wenger refuses to adapt his philosophy to win trophies, it maybe is time for him to think about stepping upstairs and letting someone else build the nearly-there squad he's assembled. No chance he should be sacked, but he's consistently failed to address glaring weaknesses in his side that, if solved, would have meant winning things in the last few years. The top class Arsenal side of previous years had tough players like Parlour, Vieira, Adams and Petit who dragged them through the tight games the Premiership and Cup football will throw at you. That's what they're missing these days, plus a bit of experience. Chapman on Five Live made a good point the other day - look at the season William Gallas is having at Spurs. That's a guy who looked like a complete radgepot at Arsenal on so many occasions, yet he's single-handedly at times keeping Milan out at White Hart Lane, leading by example? They're a couple of strng characters away from the side they could be. Wenger needs to remember that the likes of John Terry, Martin Keown and Gary Neville were never the best players around technically, but they have all been essential parts of winning teams in a large part because of their attitudes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Le Clos Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 One of the craziest OPs in a long, long time. Wenger is Arsenal. Look at the state of Liverpool. Chopping and changing has not worked well for them at all. It is easy to criticise Wenger for not splashing cash on established stars, but I'm not sure his board would see it that way. The move to the new stadium was not cheap and Wenger has ensured that his club are not in the financial trouble that many of the top EPL teams are in. Incoming transfers are just one part of transfer policy, balancing the books is another, as is knowing when to sell players. Wenger has regularly shown he is a master at this. He sold Henry for good money when he appeared to be world class. What did he do next? Maybe one good season at Barca, then the bench, then the Major League. Veira? He was never the same in Italy as he was in England. This has happened over and over. He got the best out of Ljungberg, Pires, Overmars, Petit etc before letting them go. Anelka is one of the very few how have gone on to do better things after they left. Just because he has not regularly splashed mega-bucks does not mean that he has failed to bring world class players to Arsenal. Henry, Pires, Viera, Anelka, Nasri, Fabregas, Flamini, Van Persie, Walcott, Vermaalan, Cole - none of these players were established stars at the point Wenger brought them into the team. All have flourished at the highest level of world football. He looked on track to beat "the official best team in the world" if a crazy refereeing decision had not changed the course of the game. He has been agonisingly close to winning the Champions League when he was let down by his goalkeeper. He would most likely have had another cup winners medal if a goalie had not let him down again. Not being able to pick a world class keeper may have been a legitimate weakness but this is very difficult to do. Alex Ferguson struggled to do this for many years after Schmeichel left. We will see how he does replacing Van der Saar. The other thing is, who would replace him? Ferguson? Mourinho? Guardiola? No chance. Are there any other coaches on a par with those I have mentioned? Let's be serious, anyone who thinks Arsenal would have beaten Barcelona even with 11 men is having a laugh. They didn't have one shot on target the entire game. You're description of Arsenal is not too unlike a certain scummy team who play in green in a flashy new breen bus shelter that they've had to keep the books balanced and seel their best players to finance. You're correct in saying he brings in relatively unknown players, but very few of his current crop have ever won anything. And I would argue that most of them, Nasri, Walcott, Vermaelen etc. have yet to actually flourish at the highest level - how can they have if Arsenal haven't won anything? And has been said, picking a 'keeper and defenders isn't as difficult as has been made out. It's Wenger's refusal to either spend money on either proven players from the Premiership or dominant centre halves. Gordon, Friedel, Schwarzer, Jaaskelainen could all have done a job between the sticks, and someone like Hangelaand would have solved a lot of their problems and centre half without costing a fortune. Wenger is Arsenal, but if he wants them to be successful again he needs to accept his philosophy isn't working and do something about it before it's too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Wiseau Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Let's be serious, anyone who thinks Arsenal would have beaten Barcelona even with 11 men is having a laugh. They didn't have one shot on target the entire game. You're description of Arsenal is not too unlike a certain scummy team who play in green in a flashy new breen bus shelter that they've had to keep the books balanced and seel their best players to finance. You're correct in saying he brings in relatively unknown players, but very few of his current crop have ever won anything. And I would argue that most of them, Nasri, Walcott, Vermaelen etc. have yet to actually flourish at the highest level - how can they have if Arsenal haven't won anything? And has been said, picking a 'keeper and defenders isn't as difficult as has been made out. It's Wenger's refusal to either spend money on either proven players from the Premiership or dominant centre halves. Gordon, Friedel, Schwarzer, Jaaskelainen could all have done a job between the sticks, and someone like Hangelaand would have solved a lot of their problems and centre half without costing a fortune. Wenger is Arsenal, but if he wants them to be successful again he needs to accept his philosophy isn't working and do something about it before it's too late. Hangeland is a decent shout actually, the player I was going to suggest was Gary Cahill though. Even a Phil Jagielka type would be ideal for Arsenal, someone who will organise and sweat blood for the cause. Vermaelen is excellent, but they do seem to lack that tough spine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Le Clos Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Hangeland is a decent shout actually, the player I was going to suggest was Gary Cahill though. Even a Phil Jagielka type would be ideal for Arsenal, someone who will organise and sweat blood for the cause. Vermaelen is excellent, but they do seem to lack that tough spine. Agreed, all 3 would add a bit of steel that they are missing at the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambos1983 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 It depends what arsenal fans want. If they like triangles they'll be well pleased, If they want trophies wenger is struggling. You can say all you like that chelsea and city spend money etc but wenger says he has money to spend all the time and doesnt. Yesterday look at the united team 7 defenders in a starting line up and they still made loads of chances and beat them. How long can it be next season next season for wenger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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