The 'working party' and the mysterious title play-off 'plan'

[blairdin]

Dutch league have play-offs for the European places but not for title. Think it's between 2nd and 4th, of course they have a CL place to play for. If it was something similar then why not?

 

(No idea if it's still in place.)

 

The Dutch do Arnold, but the Old Firm prattle on about how they like to play each other as often as possible, so having a play off involving first to fourth ensures they have the best chance of that happening. It does what they want.

[Bob Loblaw]

The whole idea is absolutely ludicrous. As much as I dislike the old firm domination, the answer is not to handicap the league, and frankly I'm embarrassed that Hearts seem to be the ones pushing this.

 

For example, If Hearts were to finish 25 points behind the Huns in 4th place but put together a sequence that made us champions it would not feel right. Do I want to see us win the league? 10000% Do I want to see us crowned champions by putting together a 3 match streak when we don't deserve it? Not in a million years. Anyone that says differently is nuts IMO.

[Arthur Morgan]

The whole idea is absolutely ludicrous. As much as I dislike the old firm domination, the answer is not to handicap the league, and frankly I'm embarrassed that Hearts seem to be the ones pushing this.

 

For example, If Hearts were to finish 25 points behind the Huns in 4th place but put together a sequence that made us champions it would not feel right. Do I want to see us win the league? 10000% Do I want to see us crowned champions by putting together a 3 match streak when we don't deserve it? Not in a million years. Anyone that says differently is nuts IMO.

 

This.

 

If and when we win the league, I want it to be deserved and on merit.

[Francis Albert]

The whole idea is absolutely ludicrous. As much as I dislike the old firm domination, the answer is not to handicap the league, and frankly I'm embarrassed that Hearts seem to be the ones pushing this.

 

For example, If Hearts were to finish 25 points behind the Huns in 4th place but put together a sequence that made us champions it would not feel right. Do I want to see us win the league? 10000% Do I want to see us crowned champions by putting together a 3 match streak when we don't deserve it? Not in a million years. Anyone that says differently is nuts IMO.

How much more ridiculous is it than the working group's proposal that the top two (guess who) should retain their current lion's share of the bunce but the other SPL clubs should redistribute money to SPL2? And the bottom 8 in a 10 club league should "enjoy" enhanced "competition" for relegation? Play-offs are NOT a proposal anyone expects to succeed (as bizarrely the McLeish working group proposal actually seems to be) but an attempt to generate a debate about the real issues with the Scottish game. Well done Hearts for showing some guts.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Play offs = stupid

 

16/18 team league. Simples.

[Charlie-Brown]

Iam surprised nobody has argued or proposed that we should give Rangers & Celtic an even bigger share of the monies available - afterall if we make them as strong as we possibly can then they will be able to afford better players and be better positioned to win more co-efficient points in UEFA competitions thus boosting our standings and chances of keeping or securing tournament places and thus benefitting the image of our games, opportunities for other clubs and the enhanced image of our game should also help attract more favourable media contracts ..... everyones a winner!

[Drylaw Hearts]

Iam surprised nobody has argued or proposed that we should give Rangers & Celtic an even bigger share of the monies available - afterall if we make them as strong as we possibly can then they will be able to afford better players and be better positioned to win more co-efficient points in UEFA competitions thus boosting our standings and chances of keeping or securing tournament places and thus benefitting the image of our games, opportunities for other clubs and the enhanced image of our game should also help attract more favourable media contracts ..... everyones a winner!

 

What a crap post CB.

 

Attempting to make other teams better by taking money from the bigger, more successful clubs is wrong.

 

Each club has to be able to stand on it's own 2 feet.

 

 

Have some pride man.

[Charlie-Brown]

What a crap post CB.

 

Attempting to make other teams better by taking money from the bigger, more successful clubs is wrong.

 

Each club has to be able to stand on it's own 2 feet.

 

 

Have some pride man.

 

Why do they share gate receipts for Cup matches? Why did they share them in league matches for almost a century? Why was it right before for so many decades but wrong now? Why is it wrong in Baseball or American football? Why are salary capping and budget limits in other Sports and other attempts to preserve competition as opposed to unrestricted money power that leads to monopolisation by the richest few wrong?

 

Competition is the lifeblood of sport - the excess disparity based on wealth differences between big budget and smaller budget teams is killing competition and has ruined Scottish Football.

 

Here is the list of trophy winners between 1945-1965

 

firstly - 1st, 2nd & 3rd in the League

 

1946?47 Rangers Hibernian Aberdeen

1947?48 Hibernian Rangers Partick Thistle

1948?49 Rangers Dundee Hibernian

1949?50 Rangers Hibernian Heart of Midlothian

1950?51 Hibernian Rangers Dundee

1951?52 Hibernian Rangers East Fife

1952?53 Rangers Hibernian East Fife

1953?54 Celtic Heart of Midlothian Partick Thistle

1954?55 Aberdeen Celtic Rangers

1955?56 Rangers Aberdeen Heart of Midlothian

1956?57 Rangers Heart of Midlothian Kilmarnock

1957?58 Heart of Midlothian Rangers Celtic

1958?59 Rangers Heart of Midlothian Motherwell

1959?60 Heart of Midlothian Kilmarnock Ranger

1960?61 Rangers Kilmarnock Third Lanark

1961?62 Dundee Rangers Celtic

1962?63 Rangers Kilmarnock Partick Thistle

1963?64 Rangers Kilmarnock Celtic

1964?65 Kilmarnock Heart of Midlothian Dunfermline Athletic

 

And here is 1990 - 2010

 

1989?90 Rangers Aberdeen Heart of Midlothian

1990?91 Rangers Aberdeen Celtic

1991?92 Rangers Heart of Midlothian Celtic

1992?93 Rangers Aberdeen Celtic

1993?94 Rangers Aberdeen Motherwell

1994?95 Rangers Motherwell Hibernian

1995?96 Rangers Celtic Aberdeen

1996?97 Rangers Celtic Dundee United

1997?98 Celtic Rangers Heart of Midlothian

1998?99 Rangers Celtic St. Johnstone

1999?2000 Rangers Celtic Heart of Midlothian

2000?01 Celtic Rangers Hibernian

2001?02 Celtic Rangers Livingston

2002?03 Rangers Celtic Heart of Midlothian

2003?04 Celtic Rangers Heart of Midlothian

2004?05 Rangers Celtic Hibernian

2005?06 Celtic Heart of Midlothian Rangers

2006?07 Celtic Rangers Aberdeen

2007?08 Celtic Rangers Motherwell

2008?09 Rangers Celtic Heart of Midlothian

2009?10 Rangers Celtic Dundee United

 

Next Scottish Cup winners & finalists

 

1946?47 Aberdeen 2 ? 1 Hibernian Hampden Park 82,140 [8][97]

1947?48 Rangers 1 ? 1 * Morton Hampden Park 129,176 [8][98]

1947?48 ® Rangers 1 ? 0 * Morton Hampden Park 133,750 [8][99]

1948?49 Rangers 4 ? 1 Clyde Hampden Park 108,435 [8][100]

1949?50 Rangers 3 ? 0 East Fife Hampden Park 118,262 [8][101]

1950?51 Celtic 1 ? 0 Motherwell Hampden Park 131,943 [8][102]

1951?52 Motherwell 4 ? 0 Dundee Hampden Park 136,274 [8][103]

1952?53 Rangers 1 ? 1 Aberdeen Hampden Park 129,761 [8][104]

1952?53 ® Rangers 1 ? 0 Aberdeen Hampden Park 113,700 [8][105]

1953?54 Celtic 2 ? 1 Aberdeen Hampden Park 130,060 [8][106]

1954?55 Clyde 1 ? 1 Celtic Hampden Park 106,234 [8][107]

1954?55 ® Clyde 1 ? 0 Celtic Hampden Park 68,831 [8][108]

1955?56 Heart of Midlothian 3 ? 1 Celtic Hampden Park 132,840 [8][109]

1956?57 Falkirk 1 ? 1 Kilmarnock Hampden Park 83,000 [8][110]

1956?57 ® Falkirk 2 ? 1 * Kilmarnock Hampden Park 79,785 [8][111]

1957?58 Clyde 1 ? 0 Hibernian Hampden Park 95,123 [8][112]

1958?59 St. Mirren 3 ? 1 Aberdeen Hampden Park 108,591 [8][113]

1959?60 Rangers 2 ? 0 Kilmarnock Hampden Park 108,017 [8][114]

1960?61 Dunfermline Athletic 0 ? 0 Celtic Hampden Park 113,618 [8][115]

1960?61 ® Dunfermline Athletic 2 ? 0 Celtic Hampden Park 87,866 [8][116]

1961?62 Rangers 2 ? 0 St. Mirren Hampden Park 127,940 [8][117]

1962?63 Rangers 1 ? 1 Celtic Hampden Park 129,643 [8][118]

1962?63 ® Rangers 3 ? 0 Celtic Hampden Park 120,273 [8][119]

1963?64 Rangers 3 ? 1 Dundee Hampden Park 120,982 [8][120]

1964?65 Celtic 3 ? 2 Dunfermline Athletic Hampden Park 108,800 [8][121]

 

 

and more recently

 

1989?90 Aberdeen 0 ? 0 ? Celtic Hampden Park 60,493 [8][151]

1990?91 Motherwell 4 ? 3 * Dundee United Hampden Park 57,319 [8][152]

1991?92 Rangers 2 ? 1 Airdrieonians Hampden Park 44,045 [8][153]

1992?93 Rangers 2 ? 1 Aberdeen Celtic Park 50,715 [8][154]

1993?94 Dundee United 1 ? 0 Rangers Hampden Park 37,450 [8][155]

1994?95 Celtic 1 ? 0 Airdrieonians Hampden Park 36,915 [8][156]

1995?96 Rangers 5 ? 1 Heart of Midlothian Hampden Park 37,730 [8][157]

1996?97 Kilmarnock 1 ? 0 Falkirk Ibrox Stadium 48,953 [17][158]

1997?98 Heart of Midlothian 2 ? 1 Rangers Celtic Park 48,946 [17][159]

1998?99 Rangers 1 ? 0 Celtic Hampden Park 52,670 [17][160]

1999?00 Rangers 4 ? 0 Aberdeen Hampden Park 50,865 [17][161]

2000?01 Celtic 3 ? 0 Hibernian Hampden Park 51,824 [17][162]

2001?02 Rangers 3 ? 2 Celtic Hampden Park 51,138 [17][163]

2002?03 Rangers 1 ? 0 Dundee Hampden Park 47,136 [17][164]

2003?04 Celtic 3 ? 1 Dunfermline Athletic Hampden Park 50,846 [17][165]

2004?05 Celtic 1 ? 0 Dundee United Hampden Park 50,635 [17][166]

2005?06 Heart of Midlothian 1 ? 1 ? Gretna Hampden Park 51,232 [17][167]

2006?07 Celtic 1 ? 0 Dunfermline Athletic Hampden Park 49,600 [17][168]

2007?08 Rangers 3 ? 2 Queen of the South Hampden Park 48,821 [17][169]

2008?09 Rangers 1 ? 0 Falkirk Hampden Park 50,956 [17][170]

2009?10 Dundee United 3 ? 0 Ross County

 

and finally League Cup Winners and Finalists

 

1946?47 Rangers 4 ? 0 Aberdeen Hampden Park 82,700 [1]

1947?48 East Fife 0 0 ? 0 * Falkirk Hampden Park 53,785 [2]

1947?48 ® East Fife 4 ? 1 Falkirk Hampden Park 31,000 [3]

1948?49 Rangers 2 ? 0 Raith Rovers Hampden Park 57,450 [4]

1949?50 East Fife 3 ? 0 Dunfermline Athletic Hampden Park 39,744 [5]

1950?51 Motherwell 3 ? 0 Hibernian Hampden Park 64,074 [6]

1951?52 Dundee 3 ? 2 Rangers Hampden Park 92,325 [7]

1952?53 Dundee 2 ? 0 Kilmarnock Hampden Park 51,830 [8]

1953?54 East Fife 3 ? 2 Partick Thistle Hampden Park 38,529 [9]

1954?55 Heart of Midlothian 4 ? 2 Motherwell Hampden Park 55,640 [10]

1955?56 Aberdeen 2 ? 1 St. Mirren Hampden Park 44,106 [11]

1956?57 Celtic 0 0 ? 0 * Partick Thistle Hampden Park 59,000 [12]

1956?57 ® Celtic 3 ? 0 Partick Thistle Hampden Park [13]

1957?58 Celtic 7 ? 1 Rangers Hampden Park 82,293 [14]

1958?59 Heart of Midlothian 5 ? 1 Partick Thistle Hampden Park 59,690 [15]

1959?60 Heart of Midlothian 2 ? 1 Third Lanark Hampden Park 57,994 [16]

1960?61 Rangers 2 ? 0 Kilmarnock Hampden Park 82,063 [17]

1961?62 Rangers 0 1 ? 1 * Heart of Midlothian Hampden Park 88,000 [18]

1961?62 ® Rangers 3 ? 1 Heart of Midlothian Hampden Park 47,500 [19]

1962?63 Heart of Midlothian 1 ? 0 Kilmarnock Hampden Park 51,000 [20]

1963?64 Rangers 5 ? 0 Morton Hampden Park 105,907 [21]

1964?65 Rangers 2 ? 1 Celtic Hampden Park 91,423

 

and in the last 20 years

 

1989?90 Aberdeen 0 2 ? 1 * Rangers Hampden Park 61,190 [48]

1990?91 Rangers 0 2 ? 1 * Celtic Hampden Park 62,817 [49]

1991?92 Hibernian 2 ? 0 Dunfermline Athletic Hampden Park 40,377 [50]

1992?93 Rangers 0 2 ? 1 * Aberdeen Hampden Park 54,298 [51]

1993?94 Rangers 2 ? 1 Hibernian Celtic Park 47,632 [52]

1994?95 Raith Rovers 0 2 ? 2 ? Celtic Ibrox Stadium 45,384 [53]

1995?96 Aberdeen 2 ? 0 Dundee Hampden Park 33,096 [54]

1996?97 Rangers 4 ? 3 Heart of Midlothian Celtic Park 48,559 [55]

1997?98 Celtic 3 ? 0 Dundee United Ibrox Stadium 49,305 [56]

1998?99 Rangers 2 ? 1 St. Johnstone Celtic Park 45,533 [57]

1999?00 Celtic 2 ? 0 Aberdeen Hampden Park 50,073 [58]

2000?01 Celtic 3 ? 0 Kilmarnock Hampden Park 48,830 [59]

2001?02 Rangers 4 ? 0 Ayr United Hampden Park 50,076 [60]

2002?03 Rangers 2 ? 1 Celtic Hampden Park 52,000 [61]

2003?04 Livingston 2 ? 0 Hibernian Hampden Park 45,500 [62]

2004?05 Rangers 5 ? 1 Motherwell Hampden Park 50,182 [63]

2005?06 Celtic 3 ? 0 Dunfermline Athletic Hampden Park 50,090 [64]

2006?07 Hibernian 5 ? 1 Kilmarnock Hampden Park 52,000 [65]

2007?08 Rangers 0 2 ? 2 ? Dundee United Hampden Park 50,019 [66]

2008?09 Celtic 0 2 ? 0 * Rangers Hampden Park 51,193 [67]

2009?10 Rangers 1 ? 0 St. Mirren

 

Draw your own conclusions.

[kennyblack'sshot]

This.

 

If and when we win the league, I want it to be deserved and on merit.

 

But it would be on merit because we would have won the league within the agreed rules and format. We would have done well enough to get into the play-offs and then we would have played better than the other teams in the play-offs.

[Arthur Morgan]

But it would be on merit because we would have won the league within the agreed rules and format. We would have done well enough to get into the play-offs and then we would have played better than the other teams in the play-offs.

 

Sorry but it's crazy to think that if we were to get into the top 4 and be like 20-30 points of 1st and then still had the chance to win the league, it wouldn't feel right for me and I would rather win it over the course of a whole season, not a few games. If that was the case then we should just scrap the league format altogether and turn the SPL into a knock out competition!

[alanjambo]

It might seem farcical but play offs work. Blackpool finished quite a bit behind Notts Forest in the Championship last season if I remember right. They won the play off and are now a breath of fresh air in the premiership. Alright, it's not the title, but it's proof that the play off system works. You just have to get your head round it and stop thinking about how the game's always been.

 

I'm still not totally into this idea (I think that the play off should be from second to fourth or fifth) but I am very proud that my club are at least trying to drive some real change into Scottish football. It's a helluva lot more interesting than the ten team rubbish that's been proposed. Aberdeen's Milne was on the telly yesterday saying that they'd explored all the avenues and ten team leagues were the best that they could come up with. Then Hearts come up with something so radical that they'd NEVER have considered it. Well done Hearts- we're a force for good in this game.

[Drylaw Hearts]

 

Draw your own conclusions.

 

 

This domination by the OF hasn't come about because the clubs stopped splitting gate receipts CB - it all came about when Rangers hired Souness and gave him a pot full of cash.

 

Their attendances at that point were probably averaging a third of what they are now so this investment in the team didn't come from the cash being spent by the fans every other week - this money came from the Malborough family.

 

They then stepped up a gear when SDM bought Rangers. Then Fergus McCann got involved with Celtic.

 

Both clubs have had enormous outside investment from SDM and McCann which has led to success which has led to increased crowds and now you want us and other clubs to get a share of that success by taking half their ticket money ?

 

 

We moan about the OF and how horrible and disgusting they are yet we want them to help the other clubs by giving hand-outs.

 

 

Bit of a cheek imo.

[The Treasurer]

It's a negotiating position. That's all. A bit like the threat to bugger off to England. It's about time someone proposed something the OF don't like!

 

I think you're probably not far from the truth here FA.

As for this idea I think that whoever finishes top are champions, no question, but play-off's for the Euro places for the next 4 teams is not a totally ridiculous idea, especially if Scotland ever get the 2nd CL place back.

[Mr Brightside]

the media are not helping either, they concentrate mainly on the play-off suggestion rather then seriously looking at why it has been suggested. I am talking over facebook to a good mate who is a Rangers fan, I am trying to explain that 16 team league helps competition for the top as it reduces the number of games against the old firm, to which he replies that it is just the smaller clubs running scared and he wants to see the best team win (i.e. if say Hearts beat all the other non-of teams but lost to Rangers and Celtic and won, they wouldn't be the best team cos they lost to the old firm.

 

A 16 team league with a play off for championship and relegation might actually encourage youth development too.

There would be less pressure on the old firm to win every game so could paly more youngsters, also could keep their better players fresher for european ties.

If the bottom four played of for 2 relegation slots there wouldn't be the fear factor throughout the season and could play some youngsters too.

[vintage1874]

David Southern came over well on radio last night, only 2 teams would really be be opposed to it and it would not need an 11-1 vote. Right or wrong it is a radical idea and like Southern mentioned we will only get once chance and should consider all options.

I think this proposal is clever and hope it it used as a bargaining tool to bring about change like sharing gate and TV money equally among the clubsin the spl

[Charlie-Brown]

This domination by the OF hasn't come about because the clubs stopped splitting gate receipts CB - it all came about when Rangers hired Souness and gave him a pot full of cash.

 

Their attendances at that point were probably averaging a third of what they are now so this investment in the team didn't come from the cash being spent by the fans every other week - this money came from the Malborough family.

 

They then stepped up a gear when SDM bought Rangers. Then Fergus McCann got involved with Celtic.

 

Both clubs have had enormous outside investment from SDM and McCann which has led to success which has led to increased crowds and now you want us and other clubs to get a share of that success by taking half their ticket money ?

 

 

We moan about the OF and how horrible and disgusting they are yet we want them to help the other clubs by giving hand-outs.

 

 

Bit of a cheek imo.

 

You still didn't answer any of the questions DH ie why is it okay for cup games but not league games? why was it okay from 1874 until 1980 but not now? Why is it okay in Baseball and American football but not the SPL?

 

Sharing gate receipts (ie all clubs get a share of the gate from every game they play in including when Rangers/Celtic visit us - so we give them their 'hand out' also ...) would be a step in the right direction if you want to help restore competition to the league and not have total domination by the richest few - personally I would copy the MLB baseball model where a percentage of ALL MLB games ticket money is put into the general fund and shared out equally amongst all the teams.

 

The rationale is that the product is the League not the individual clubs therefore they take a share of all the ticket money and distribute it evenly - the home clubs get to keep a percentage for running costs for hosting the game however it means that if you are a Yankees fan or a Phillies or Giants fan you still have an incentive to go watch any MLB Basball game as you know your money will be contributing to your club even if they aren't playing in that match. The more people that go watch MLB games the more money each of the clubs receive. MLB is the brand - the SPL should copy this idea but it's too radical for the money grabbers that run Scottish Fitba.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Sorry but it's crazy to think that if we were to get into the top 4 and be like 20-30 points of 1st and then still had the chance to win the league, it wouldn't feel right for me and I would rather win it over the course of a whole season, not a few games. If that was the case then we should just scrap the league format altogether and turn the SPL into a knock out competition!

 

I'll bet it doesn't feel crazy for the championship club that finished loads of points behind the 3rd placed club but wins the playoff and therefore promotion to the EPL. What's the difference?

[Drylaw Hearts]

You still didn't answer any of the questions DH ie why is it okay for cup games but not league games? why was it okay from 1874 until 1980 but not now? Why is it okay in Baseball and American football but not the SPL?

 

Sharing gate receipts (ie all clubs get a share of the gate from every game they play in including when Rangers/Celtic visit us - so we give them their 'hand out' also ...) would be a step in the right direction if you want to help restore competition to the league and not have total domination by the richest few - personally I would copy the MLB baseball model where a percentage of ALL MLB games ticket money is put into the general fund and shared out equally amongst all the teams.

 

The rationale is that the product is the League not the individual clubs therefore they take a share of all the ticket money and distribute it evenly - the home clubs get to keep a percentage for running costs for hosting the game however it means that if you are a Yankees fan or a Phillies or Giants fan you still have an incentive to go watch any MLB Basball game as you know your money will be contributing to your club even if they aren't playing in that match. The more people that go watch MLB games the more money each of the clubs receive. MLB is the brand - the SPL should copy this idea but it's too radical for the money grabbers that run Scottish Fitba.

 

CB....

 

I've made my opinion clear.

 

Other teams should not be entitled ANY money from League matches from other clubs.

 

Attendances are geared on success and I do not see ANY reason why away teams should prosper from the home teams big gates because they are bigger and better.

 

What right do Hamilton have to the money of 30,000 Celtic fans money ?

[Charlie-Brown]

CB....

 

I've made my opinion clear.

 

Other teams should not be entitled ANY money from League matches from other clubs.

 

Attendances are geared on success and I do not see ANY reason why away teams should prosper from the home teams big gates because they are bigger and better.

 

What right do Hamilton have to the money of 30,000 Celtic fans money ?

 

DH - why is it not okay for league games but okay for Scottish Cup and League Cup games to split the gate money? Rangers & Celtic are happy to split 50K attendance money at Hampden Park but not from Ibrox or Parkhead? What's the difference? It would still be a majoirty of Old Firm fans in attendance or are you saying we should also skew that money in favour of the amount of tickets sold?

 

It takes 2 teams to make a football match, it takes X number of teams to make a League They ALL deserve a share. The Old Firm have always argued that they bring in the most money therefore they DESERVE to keep the lions share .... without Hamilton or Hearts or Killie etc just who exactly are Rangers & Celtic going to play? Perhaps a 6 team mini league comprising those teams on the steering committee ie Rangers, Celtic, Hibs, Aberdeen, Motherwell & St Mirren who don't seem to mind reverting to a previously failed format of 10 teams that was already ditched 3 times before.

[Drylaw Hearts]

DH - why is it not okay for league games but okay for Scottish Cup and League Cup games to split the gate money? Rangers & Celtic are happy to split 50K attendance money at Hampden Park but not from Ibrox or Parkhead? What's the difference? It would still be a majoirty of Old Firm fans in attendance or are you saying we should also skew that money in favour of the amount of tickets sold?

 

It takes 2 teams to make a football match, it takes X number of teams to make a League They ALL deserve a share. The Old Firm have always argued that they bring in the most money therefore they DESERVE to keep the lions share .... without Hamilton or Hearts or Killie etc just who exactly are Rangers & Celtic going to play? Perhaps a 6 team mini league comprising those teams on the steering committee ie Rangers, Celtic, Hibs, Aberdeen, Motherwell & St Mirren who don't seem to mind reverting to a previously failed format of 10 teams that was already ditched 3 times before.

 

I think Cup games are different.

 

They are often replays and neutral venues and as it's the luck of the draw both teams deserve a share.

 

 

Clubs deserve an equal share of TV money and sponsorship and that's about it.

 

 

 

We are paying to enter their stadium and they keep the money. When they pay to enter our stadium we keep the money.

 

It's simple.

 

 

 

You are acting like a spoiled child by demanding something which isn't yours.

[Charlie-Brown]

I think Cup games are different.

 

They are often replays and neutral venues and as it's the luck of the draw both teams deserve a share.

 

 

Clubs deserve an equal share of TV money and sponsorship and that's about it.

 

 

 

We are paying to enter their stadium and they keep the money. When they pay to enter our stadium we keep the money.

 

It's simple.

 

 

 

You are acting like a spoiled child by demanding something which isn't yours.

 

 

iam not demanding anything DH - what Iam arguing in favour of is the facts;

 

when we had gate sharing and limits on salaries we had the most competitive era ever in Scottish football with the most non Old Firm trophy wins AND also the era of highest attendances in total not just at 2 or a few clubs.

 

since we moved away from those principles and arrangements which promote and preserve sporting competition we have seen 5 things.

 

1. Falling attendances at the vast majority of clubs

2. Increasing Old Firm domination / stranglehold

3. A wideheld perception of falling standards and spectator interest

4. Umpteen league reconstructions with still no perfect formula found.

5. Worsening results on a European and International level as evidenced by falling co-efficient results.

 

IF you want to increase crowds and reverse the trends that have made Scottish football stale, boring and on a downward trend then you have to reverse the economic factors that have helped stifle any meaningful competition and lead to long term falling demand and interest and lower standards.

[Drylaw Hearts]

 

IF you want to increase crowds and reverse the trends that have made Scottish football stale, boring and on a downward trend then you have to reverse the economic factors that have helped stifle any meaningful competition and lead to long term falling demand and interest and lower standards.

 

IF people really want to achieve all these things then they should go along and support their team every week and increase the money entering the club.

 

THAT is the best way to change things.

 

 

Not stand at the side with your hand out asking for money from the 2 teams we all despise so much.

[Charlie-Brown]

IF people really want to achieve all these things then they should go along and support their team every week and increase the money entering the club.

 

THAT is the best way to change things.

 

 

Not stand at the side with your hand out asking for money from the 2 teams we all despise so much.

 

EVERYBODY shares money DH not just Rangers and Celtic - they would get their share of money at 19 away games (or however many played) just as we would get money from Hamilton, Killie, Tannadice etc. and them from us.

 

Don't kid yourself on that anybody coming to Tynecastle is there to see Hearts but at Tannadice or Ibrox then it's Dundee United or Rangers. When YOU visit every ground in Scotland including Tynecastle you are there to see Hearts just as Celtic and Rangers fans contribute to other clubs home attendances and the other clubs also contribute to OF home attendances despite the paltry ticket allowances. If Hearts take fans to Hamilton or Celtic take fans to Ibrox or Rangers to Tannadice don't those clubs deserve a share of the gate receipts for boosting the gate?

[Mike Hunt]

How about a play off at the top if there is a minimum number of points between the teams?

 

I think a team finishing 20 points below first being granted the opportunity to win is not right but what about if there was only 3 or 5 points seperating the teams?

 

It could mean a 2 or 3 horse play off or even 4, any teams inside 5 from the top!

 

This would be HMFC's best outcome IMO.

 

European place play offs are not good for us as we are there already more often than not.

 

This would not make our league look daft either, infact the opposite a realistic SPL FINAL generating more interest and most importantly more CASH;)

 

If we keep the split then any team inside 10 from the leader has a realistic chance of getting to 5 as they will play the teams above

 

The split and the last few weeks of the season suddenly becomes very very interesting!

 

Thoughts?

[Rudy T]

What people don't seem to be grasping about this concept is the mind set of the teams will change in this format.

 

You wont be playing to win the league as such it'll be about playing to be top 4, if anyone is 20 points clear they get the chance to take their foot off the gas as such, play youngsters and keep their top players fit and free of suspension for the play off games.

 

It will also allow the teams in Europe to change their teams before and after games, as you can afford to drop more points in this format.

 

This is how the championship teams in the play off places tend to go about the end of the season, it would be the same concept here.

 

I'll admit when I read it I thought we'd lost the plot and it was a bit of a two fingers to the old firm excercise, however the more I hear about it - the better it sounds.

 

The cash this will generate is staggering, Can you imagine how much a play off for the title between the OF would generate through TV, I'd even imagine a two leg Hearts v Hibs tie would also be worth a few quid.

 

The league's profile would be raised hugely and people would certainly watch with interest to see how it worked.

 

It works for me, and better still the OF can do FA about it !

[blairdin]

What people don't seem to be grasping about this concept is the mind set of the teams will change in this format.

 

You wont be playing to win the league as such it'll be about playing to be top 4, if anyone is 20 points clear they get the chance to take their foot off the gas as such, play youngsters and keep their top players fit and free of suspension for the play off games.

 

It will also allow the teams in Europe to change their teams before and after games, as you can afford to drop more points in this format.

 

This is how the championship teams in the play off places tend to go about the end of the season, it would be the same concept here.

 

I'll admit when I read it I thought we'd lost the plot and it was a bit of a two fingers to the old firm excercise, however the more I hear about it - the better it sounds.

 

The cash this will generate is staggering, Can you imagine how much a play off for the title between the OF would generate through TV, I'd even imagine a two leg Hearts v Hibs tie would also be worth a few quid.

 

The league's profile would be raised hugely and people would certainly watch with interest to see how it worked.

 

It works for me, and better still the OF can do FA about it !

 

This a million times over. Good post.

[Mike Hunt]

What people don't seem to be grasping about this concept is the mind set of the teams will change in this format.

 

You wont be playing to win the league as such it'll be about playing to be top 4, if anyone is 20 points clear they get the chance to take their foot off the gas as such, play youngsters and keep their top players fit and free of suspension for the play off games.

 

It will also allow the teams in Europe to change their teams before and after games, as you can afford to drop more points in this format.

 

This is how the championship teams in the play off places tend to go about the end of the season, it would be the same concept here.

 

I'll admit when I read it I thought we'd lost the plot and it was a bit of a two fingers to the old firm excercise, however the more I hear about it - the better it sounds.

 

The cash this will generate is staggering, Can you imagine how much a play off for the title between the OF would generate through TV, I'd even imagine a two leg Hearts v Hibs tie would also be worth a few quid.

 

The league's profile would be raised hugely and people would certainly watch with interest to see how it worked.

 

It works for me, and better still the OF can do FA about it !

 

are you suggesting a team finishing 20 points behind the leader should be given the opportunity to win the league?

[JamboX2]

It says two things really this proposal;

 

1. The rest of the SPL in hopes of bigger cash flows have allowed the OF to dictate the agenda for too long. We have a stale, bland league. We bought the OF idea on SPL restructuring years ago, the split etc, and it's asserted their dominance. Arguably it was coming, but I think I'm right in saying in the last 20 years only 1 or 2 teams have split them twice. Rubbish. Sign of a poor league.

 

2. The old firm opposition confirms this point, that when their appears to be a break in their dominance they close ranks and block it. I have heard for years that the SPL and Scottish Football is too uncompetitive and is holding them back. That they want a bigger domestic challenge. Well we propose an innovative money spinner and they shoot it down in flames. It reminds me of 2005-06 when we challenged them, and split them, it caused panic in their ranks. Although any sustained challenge we could make was blown by our illustrious owner soon after. It's the reason I cite in the pub when the prospect of their move south comes up, It's too competitive, they'll bleed fans and come back begging, or suffer a fate with no trophies in the championship. England is a big pond, the Championship has clubs that can out perform the OF financially, Middlesborough, Leeds, Southampton and Notts Forrest are on their day big teams and easily capable of matching the likes of the OF. Rangers and Celtic would struggle to get out the Championship and when in the Premier league would struggle to better Blackpool. The growth potential is huge, but are their fans willing to wait a few decades to be able to challenge for champs league again? Are they ready to shed their nonsense to be acceptable in the eyes of the FA? Can they compete with equals? No to all these, they can't accept competition here when a move to alter the game to accommodate it is voiced. So they wont put up for it their for long, at least their fans wont.

So to conclude, if they can't compete with near equals here, their chances in England are smaller. This proposal wont go ahead, but imagine the financial gains to the SPL if they did. Rangers v. Hearts, Celtic v. Dundee Utd, etc. for the league title. Huge gate revenue for clubs to spend on improving their teams. Even keep the split and make it a mini league. The top 6 reset to 0 points and then play for the league title. Something to make the league more competative, to make it exciting again. With refining and fine tuning we could make this a proposal to better the game. I mean how much more exciting can a Dunfermline v. Hamilton playoff get? These would be big games, bigger games than any in Scottish history. A real open league. If they won't go that far, and all the proposals don't get the nod, which I fear will happen, then just throw in a 2nd relegation spot in the SPL, so finally Hamilton AND St.Mirren can go down!

[DETTY29]

What people don't seem to be grasping about this concept is the mind set of the teams will change in this format.

 

You wont be playing to win the league as such it'll be about playing to be top 4, if anyone is 20 points clear they get the chance to take their foot off the gas as such, play youngsters and keep their top players fit and free of suspension for the play off games.

 

It will also allow the teams in Europe to change their teams before and after games, as you can afford to drop more points in this format.

 

This is how the championship teams in the play off places tend to go about the end of the season, it would be the same concept here.

 

I'll admit when I read it I thought we'd lost the plot and it was a bit of a two fingers to the old firm excercise, however the more I hear about it - the better it sounds.

 

The cash this will generate is staggering, Can you imagine how much a play off for the title between the OF would generate through TV, I'd even imagine a two leg Hearts v Hibs tie would also be worth a few quid.

 

The league's profile would be raised hugely and people would certainly watch with interest to see how it worked.

 

It works for me, and better still the OF can do FA about it !

It's an innovative idea that will 'slightly' diminish the duopoly - because I still reckon 8-9 times out of ten they would occupy the top slot after the final - if not more - but it would bring extra revenue and a higher profile to the Scottish game.

 

I reckon if they could, Rangers and Celtic would go for something similar to the SRU model. 2 major professional teams in some form of cross country league, horsing all the money. The remaining clubs within Scotland would become amateur, but every player would be affiliated to one of the big clubs to cover for injuries, suspensions and outstanding form.

 

Would people on be here be ready to support the Edinburgh club - oh no - wait a minute - that's not how it would work.

 

The proposal isn't perfect, but it's worthy of debate and pursuing something similar.

 

I'm really starting to despair about the number of OF apologists we have within the Hearts support who are treating this with disdain.

[blairdin]

are you suggesting a team finishing 20 points behind the leader should be given the opportunity to win the league?

 

It's not unprecedented in other sports though - rugby league and union are the obvious examples close to home where the league championship is decided by play off as opposed to traditional final placings.

 

Using your arguement, is it right that a Blackpool side that barely finished 6th in last seasons Championship qualified to the Premiership?

 

Just because it's different doesn't make it wrong. In fact, the more I read and talk about it the more I like it. Rudy T has made some excellent points how it could actually benefit the old firm. If we had this system now, Rankgers for example would be able to rest players at domestic level to compete in Europe, knowing they'd still get a good crack at the title.

 

Incidently, this'll never be allowed to happen. I think it's a cunning ploy by the clubs left out of the working party to stimulate debate about other options.

[Francis Albert]

are you suggesting a team finishing 20 points behind the leader should be given the opportunity to win the league?

As I understand it the working party and the OF support the idea of the team in 8th finising 20 points ahead of the team and 9th but getting the oppportunity to be relegated while the team in 9th get the opportunity to stay up.

[Guest vanbasten1874]

are you suggesting a team finishing 20 points behind the leader should be given the opportunity to win the league?

 

 

I think what he's saying is if you know the rules at the beggining of the competition its up to each team how far ahead they want to be come the 'playoffs' works for me, gives us back competition which after all is what the OF have been crying out for years for . We all know the change of format done previously was in aid of the old firm and worked well they get the lions share of gate money and guaranteed europe every season due to the resources available to them but it weakened the other teams who could never in a million years be able to match the OF financially and thus weakened the competitveness of our league this proposal would leave the OF with the money they crave and competition to boot everyones a winner but they wont agree they dont have the balls for competition just look at their record in europe for that .

[redm]

Aye, it was on the BBC website earlier that it is a 10-2 vote. So there's at least a chance of something actually getting through, no doubt at least one of the OF's Greater Glasgow Bitches will side with them though.

 

Out of interest, what sort of decision requires what sort of vote? We have 11-1 for some, 10-2 for others and I think 8-4 for some other stuff.

 

8-4 for most general stuff, 11-1 for changes to media and broadcasting rights and 10-2 for anything relating to league reconstruction apparently.

[scott_jambo]

Trust Stewart Milne and Rod Petrie to be on the working party but no invite for David Soutthern or Steven Thompson.

 

The formers are penny pinching, spineless wimmen who don't see the bigger picture or have any foresight. They just care if their club gets an extra 20,000 pounds a year from an SPL 10.

 

As said before hang your heads in shame. No doubt the hibs fans on filth.net have airbrushed this fact. At least the Dons fans like to get stuck into Stewart Milne.

 

 

[redm]

Just read some comments from Lennon and Smith about this play-off proposal - they're spitting teeth over it. How amusing.

 

Both seem to think that it has only come about because some clubs noses are out of joint after being omitted from the working party invitation list. Well, fancy that. The Scotsman seem to think that the organ grinder behind this plan is Thompson at Utd rather than us btw. "Old Firm managers unite" - nooooooo, you don't say?

 

http://sport.scotsman.com/football/Old-Firm-managers-unite-against.6667049.jp

 

"It's probably a bit of devilment on the part of those clubs who are proposing it. Do they have the greater good of Scottish football at heart or do they have their own interests at heart? Do people just act out of self-interest?

 

Oh Lemon, I can only assume that you're trying to be funny....

 

 

[blairdin]

Had a wee catch up on quotes from chairmen etc there.

 

Looks like a bargaining position to me. They want a bigger league and will block the return to 10 team gash-a-rama and hold out for a 16-18 team league with play-offs for the second CL place (assuming we can get it back) and play offs for relegation.

 

Long game to be played here, and I still have no idea how they intend to balance out the books if we are going to be spreading the TV money so thinly with an extra 4-6 teams. But the play offs would certainly get more gate money in. They'll need to think of a clever way to fit in the precious third and fourth Old Firm games too.

 

The play off proposal would more than likely take care of both scenario's Borthers - if anything, the theatre of a play off system would generate extra telly cash compared to what we get now, and the play offs would more than likely lead to an Old Firm double header final.

 

As I've said, I wouldn't do home and away semi final play offs -. I'd propose a three game series played to a finish (first versus fourth and second versus third), with the first and second placed teams getting two home matches at the semi final stage and the third and fourth placed teams getting just one. So in theory, the odds are still stacked in favour of the first and second placed clubs reaching the final.

[B.S.]

Don't know why the OF are gettin so hot under the collar about playin a final for the title. If Celtic get to the final there'l be Murphy/O'Malley officials and if it's Rangers ... well any of the rest really. Not a chance in hell any other team would be allowed to win such a final.

 

For what it's worth, I disgaree with it too. A Championship is there to prove the best team over a season simple as that.

[Gibbo]

Add me to the list of those who think that this is just a negotiating tactic. You've proposed something we don't like, and we'll vote against it. Here's something you won't like. Let's negotiate.

[Arthur Morgan]

I'll bet it doesn't feel crazy for the championship club that finished loads of points behind the 3rd placed club but wins the playoff and therefore promotion to the EPL. What's the difference?

 

I'm not comparing us with the Championship though and yes, I dislike the system there as well, play offs shouldn't decide how a league title is won, it's crazy.

[Nookie Bear]

FA,

 

Find yourself a brick wall and start banging your head against it.

 

Seems to me that a load of Hearts fans are happy to allow the OF to continue to rule the roost and haemorrage (sp)all the cash for themselves.

 

There has to be a reason that the clubs aren't coming out and saying we want an equal/proportionately share - And ones why Hearts are proposing something so radical

 

No, it seems to me that non-OF clubs want special favours to compete. That isn't fair either.

 

And if Hearts finished 4th and 25 points behind 1st place but somehow scraped a play-off victory then it would be as hollow a victory as the Tennants Sixes. Worthless.

[kennyblack'sshot]

And if Hearts finished 4th and 25 points behind 1st place but somehow scraped a play-off victory then it would be as hollow a victory as the Tennants Sixes. Worthless.

 

Yeh, I bet Blackpool fans (finished 6th and beat the 3rd and 4th placed teams in the Championship playoffs) are currently sitting around feelling that it was all worthless and hollow right enough!

[Nookie Bear]

Yeh, I bet Blackpool fans (finished 6th and beat the 3rd and 4th placed teams in the Championship playoffs) are currently sitting around feelling that it was all worthless and hollow right enough!

 

There is a huge difference between gaining promotion and going down in the record books as Champion

[kennyblack'sshot]

There is a huge difference between gaining promotion and going down in the record books as Champion

 

Yep, about ?85 million worth of difference according to wikipedia. The record books show the title winners no matter how it's one. Saying that a title won through play-offs is worthless is like saying a world cup won on penalties is worthless. The record books still show who won it. I'm delighted we won the cup in 2006 despite the fact that it basically came down to a shooting competition at the end.

 

And the point about the Championship is that the rewards for gaining promotion are much bigger than the rewards for winning the SPL. I bet the Old Firm wouldn't complain about play-offs if they got their wish to move south but were told they had to start in the Championship.

 

In fact, didn't someone from Celtic or Rangers come out and say they would be willing to move to the Championship? They'd be down there in a shot - play-offs or no play-offs. Hypocrites.

[geddy]

Boys, girls, stop and think.

This is Hearts making a statement. This is Hearts stirring shit up. This is possibly Vlad at his clever best. Get the gruesome twosome on the back foot. Show them up as two faced selfish bar-stewards.

Then perhaps push for something better than the garbage that has been put forward by the committee.

I am right behind HMFC in this, as I believe it to be a strategy for the long term.

Great stuff. Clever and divisive. Good work, proud to be a jambo.

[Rudy T]

I think what he's saying is if you know the rules at the beggining of the competition its up to each team how far ahead they want to be come the 'playoffs' works for me, gives us back competition which after all is what the OF have been crying out for years for . We all know the change of format done previously was in aid of the old firm and worked well they get the lions share of gate money and guaranteed europe every season due to the resources available to them but it weakened the other teams who could never in a million years be able to match the OF financially and thus weakened the competitveness of our league this proposal would leave the OF with the money they crave and competition to boot everyones a winner but they wont agree they dont have the balls for competition just look at their record in europe for that .

 

Correct mate, it wouldn't be about being 20 points clear at the end of a season it would be all about how you manage your season to get into the top 4 and give yourself a shot at the title.

 

If you stop and think about it - The value of the cup competitions would rise again as teams could manage their league games around playing a strong cup side to get silverware, and the teams in Europe get a chance to rest players before a big euro game. Effectively it becomes a squad game as opposed to playing your best 11 every week. Teams can go for it everyweek as you know you'll always have a chance, it'll be about 3 points not 1 and hope to just stay in the league !

 

Seriously imagine the excitment of getting into the top 4, imagine the games leading up to the final positions then the actual play off games themselves. The fans, TV companies etc etc would be falling over themselves to get a peice of the action.

 

I'm telling you it's the way forward.

[Poseidon]

How about this crazy idea; Say the league finished like this;

 

1. Rangers

2. Celtic

3. Hearts

4. Dundee Utd

 

On the Saturday Hearts host Dundee Utd, the winner then travels to Celtic Park on Sunday and the winner plays Rangers for the title at Ibrox on the bank holiday Monday.

Rangers would get the benefit of playing at home against a team who have already played a game or two in the previous days, where injuried and suspensions could be picked up.

 

Probably not as good as some of the proposed ideas as it would all come down to one game where dodgy ref decisions etc could cause a team winning the league at a canter to lose out but I thought I'd throw it out there.

 

 

[Charlie-Brown]

Certainly title play-off's in other sports don't seem to devalue the competition they may even be THE MAIN ATTRACTION and action in those sports - indeed the whole MLB season calender is geared towards earning post season play off slots and a crack at the World Series title.

[Charlie-Brown]

How about finishing in the top 2 places during the normal season GUARANTEES you a european place - however the play-off's are then to decide who wins the title and the 1, 2, 3, 4 placings order for available Champions League and Europa League places?

[Seymour M Hersh]

I'm not comparing us with the Championship though and yes, I dislike the system there as well, play offs shouldn't decide how a league title is won, it's crazy.

 

Don't think any Blackpool fans will agree with you. What it's not (well for Scotland) is traditional!!! And we all know that the old traditions are best and should never be interfered with. Not. Sorry but while this may not be a perfect solution it has at least got people thinking outside the box ( 10 team, 12 team, 14, 16, 18 team league) and perhaps a better more workable alternative will come from it. Or should we just bend over and ask the uglies for another 25 years of being butt-abused? To me the fact that they have both (within hours of each other) come out and rubbished is good as they are perhaps realising that the voting system that has kept them receiving the lions share of everything and getting their way always can just as easily be used to scupper their plans (11-1 for changes in league set-up iirc). And if those two coonts are unhappy then that please me.

[Francis Albert]

Don't think any Blackpool fans will agree with you. What it's not (well for Scotland) is traditional!!! And we all know that the old traditions are best and should never be interfered with. Not. Sorry but while this may not be a perfect solution it has at least got people thinking outside the box ( 10 team, 12 team, 14, 16, 18 team league) and perhaps a better more workable alternative will come from it. Or should we just bend over and ask the uglies for another 25 years of being butt-abused? To me the fact that they have both (within hours of each other) come out and rubbished is good as they are perhaps realising that the voting system that has kept them receiving the lions share of everything and getting their way always can just as easily be used to scupper their plans (11-1 for changes in league set-up iirc). And if those two coonts are unhappy then that please me.

... which seems to have been precisely the approach of the other 4 clubs represented on the working group.