Hearts Fan Banned From Scottish Grounds For A Year

[rossthejambo]

Tragic? Don't be daft. Set-up? Ridiculous. Victim of a gross over-reaction? Undoubtedly.

 

If you transgress you open yourself up. 99/100 it's just not going to be you that is the one singled out but if you are, be prepared to suffer a sledgehammer to crack your nuts.

 

If you are the unfortunate chosen one, you will become part of a seemingly inexorable chain of events where each level of authority tries to outdo each other in demonstrating their commitment to stamping out this "xxxxxxx (insert relative vile antisocial unspeakable evil behaviour)" within our midst.

 

This results in a chain of events where each level of punishment gets more and more distanced from the severity of the initial transgression and if left unchecked results in the ultimate "hanging's too good for them" tabloid conclusion.

 

So think about what you're doing and if you're happy to accept that there's a rremote chance of a reckoning involved by all means carry on, but spare us all the miscarriage of justice bleating, please.

 

A hundred times...THIS!

 

What's the old saying, "If you fly with the crows, you'll be shot with the crows"....or something like that

[Paris 84]

The sooner fans realise that just because you're at or going to a football match doesn't give you a licence to act like an animal the better. And I don't mean just singing 'west coast hun crap' but pissing in sinks in toilets, screaming obscenities in the streets, cursing and swearing when theres kids around, throwing coins at players, throwing lighters at players, causing a disturbance and a general tit of themselves in train carriages or buses or pubs, fighting in streets or pubs or anywhere else for that matter.

[Sterling Archer]

I sing the sanitised version every time. Why? Because the other version i don't believe in as on another day it could possibly be sung to me.

 

That said i'm not bothered either way what is sung. It creates an atmosphere which is one of the most important things at a Hearts game.

 

I think the guy in question here has been very hard done by and i'm surprised at the lifetime ban from the club.

 

REALLY? a guy is charged with sectarian singing, the club is going to want to distance themselves from that as quickly as possible, they'd get slaughtered if they did anything else.

 

That's really not surprising at all.

[sniffer]

............ I think the guy in question here has been very hard done by and i'm surprised at the lifetime ban from the club.

 

 

I very much doubt the allegation that the guy has been given a "lifetime ban" by the club. FFS even lifers don't get life these days and, on a more relevant note, no such penalty exists within the HMFC Supporters Charter. The maximum offence on the published list on the HMFC website merits an "indefinite" ban, which is not the same thing and, in practice, rarely lasts longer than a season.

 

So, if he has been dished out a life ban then he has grounds for an appeal to the club. I would suggest that, once the dust has settled and his court ban has expired, he should approach the club and request permission to return as a supporter. Obviously, it would help if he showed his regret and apologised for his actions at Aberdeen. Furthermore, if he is a member of a supporters organisation it might help his case if he has someone credible to speak for and support him when he talks to the club.

[4marsbars]

As a fully paid-up member of the PC hand-wringer sweetie paper rustler brigade, it seems to me that, on the face of it, this person has been harshly treated on the basis that:-

 

- he is being made an example but thousands more do just the same

- it is possible that he was singing the Hibee/Gorgie (non sectarian) version of the song (but if that was the case surely his lawyer would have successfully defended him, so maybe he was singing something different? Who knows?)

 

Just the other week we had Killie fans singing their Ayr Blood version of that song (they also asked us if we were "Rangers in disguise" without any sense of irony).

[naeclue]

I think we should just sing Hearts songs and leave all the blood and union stuff to Rangers. I find it shames us and makes me cringe every time. After all it's the very cause of our diet huns label.

 

This

[topcat]

I very much doubt the allegation that the guy has been given a "lifetime ban" by the club. FFS even lifers don't get life these days and, on a more relevant note, no such penalty exists within the HMFC Supporters Charter. The maximum offence on the published list on the HMFC website merits an "indefinite" ban, which is not the same thing and, in practice, rarely lasts longer than a season.

 

So, if he has been dished out a life ban then he has grounds for an appeal to the club. I would suggest that, once the dust has settled and his court ban has expired, he should approach the club and request permission to return as a supporter. Obviously, it would help if he showed his regret and apologised for his actions at Aberdeen. Furthermore, if he is a member of a supporters organisation it might help his case if he has someone credible to speak for and support him when he talks to the club.

 

You mean our mathematician should get somebody from his supporters club to Cosine his letter as he attempts to show that he can differentiate between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour and integrate himself back into the Hearts support.

[bighalders]

Personally, I wish there was more consistancy with this issue. I remember years ago Jack McConnell came out with his new legislation on sectarianism, and the following weekend quite a high percentage of the Hearts support were lifted at Parkhead. Yet, on every occasion the biggot sisters visit Tynie, they all to a man woman and child sing their vile songs, but nothing happens. I know the police answer is how do you arrest 3500 people at once, but there are other ways for the authorities to deal with this, i.e. if your fans sing these songs again there is a ban on your entire support travelling for a year etc etc.

[Say What Again]

but there are other ways for the authorities to deal with this, i.e. if your fans sing these songs again there is a ban on your entire support travelling for a year etc etc.

Unfortunately that would hit every other SPL club in the pocket, while costing the OF zilch.

[henry]

Sounds like a stitch up, being banned and fined is a joke.

 

I am sure he could still get into games without any problem, don't worry about mate keep following the team.

 

Once again the polis pick on an easy target.

[ToadKiller Dog]

Sounds like a stitch up, being banned and fined is a joke.

 

I am sure he could still get into games without any problem, don't worry about mate keep following the team.

 

Once again the polis pick on an easy target.

 

Given that its a years ban from the state for any stadium in Scotland i expect he may have to report to the polis at some point on match day or if he is found at a game he could be sent to jail or his fine/ban increased . He is better to wait and see what

the terms of his punishment are and what the result of any appeal may be ,before doing something stupid .

 

If he has been picked out to set an example i wish him luck in any appeal as thats clearly unfair . The Grampian police film us with a hand held Camera ,maybe that caught the event ,if it wasnt used as evidence he could ask to see if it recorded the incident .

[pablo]

Wouldn't a ban from Tynecastle just mean that you couldn't own a season ticket in your own name? Which is hardly the same thing as not being able to set foot in stadium. I bet we've nearly all used someone else's ST card, bought tickets for others or had them bought for us. How could you physically stop someone entering the ground?

[Guest Dipped Flake]

No offence Spanky but never once in my time following Hearts, home or away, have I ever heard the sanitised version being sung by anyone. I can't possibly claim to know what the guy who was banned happened to be singing that day but if that's my experience of a Hearts crowd you can kind of see why we wouldn't ever get the benefit of the doubt.

 

Honestly? I don't believe anyone sings the sanitised version.

 

 

 

 

Not read past this post yet but I have always sung Hibbee blood and never the f***** version. Not sure saying you want to be up to your knees in Hibbee blood is fully sanitised but it is not sectarian.

[Drylaw Hearts]

FWIW.....

 

I think that Grampian Police have picked someone and made an example of them.

 

There is no way thye can lift everyone so somebody had to be the unlucky one.

[Guest Dipped Flake]

Wasn't there some law introduced a few years back that banned the promotion of illegal terrorist groups?

I'm sure I remember some radical muslims being charged with that sort of offence at some point. I don't understand why radical muslims are not allowed to sing or chant about Al Quaeda but Celtic fans are allowed to sing about their favourite terrorist group with impunity.

 

 

Unfortunately, and unbelievably, the IRA are not an illegal terrorist group.

[The Treasurer]

Wonder what team the cop supported ??

 

That would be irrelevant IF he was doing his job in a fair and honest manner.

My own experience of the police would cast a doubt on their ability to do either

[the general]

Not really expert but informed by the fact that the guy was found guilty in court. That should say it all, unless there has been a miscarriage of justice.

SCAB lad

[jono1983]

Given that its a years ban from the state for any stadium in Scotland i expect he may have to report to the polis at some point on match day or if he is found at a game he could be sent to jail or his fine/ban increased . He is better to wait and see what

the terms of his punishment are and what the result of any appeal may be ,before doing something stupid .

 

If he has been picked out to set an example i wish him luck in any appeal as thats clearly unfair . The Grampian police film us with a hand held Camera ,maybe that caught the event ,if it wasnt used as evidence he could ask to see if it recorded the incident .

 

 

Yep, they had me on camera proving I was down the back of the south stand having a fag at half time but in no way have me on camera singing/chanting/being abusive etc. The only evidence they had was the word of 2 policemen who, over a year later, somehow remember the incident as if it was yesterday and were 100% certain in every aspect of evidence they gave.

 

Stitch up!

[jono1983]

Yep, they had me on camera proving I was down the back of the south stand having a fag at half time but in no way have me on camera singing/chanting/being abusive etc. The only evidence they had was the word of 2 policemen who, over a year later, somehow remember the incident as if it was yesterday and were 100% certain in every aspect of evidence they gave.

 

Stitch up!

 

 

And ironically, the only charge I was found "not guilty" on was the one charge I was actually guilty of....providing a false name at half time before being picked up at full time!

[londonjambo]

Personally, I wish there was more consistancy with this issue. I remember years ago Jack McConnell came out with his new legislation on sectarianism, and the following weekend quite a high percentage of the Hearts support were lifted at Parkhead. Yet, on every occasion the biggot sisters visit Tynie, they all to a man woman and child sing their vile songs, but nothing happens. I know the police answer is how do you arrest 3500 people at once, but there are other ways for the authorities to deal with this, i.e. if your fans sing these songs again there is a ban on your entire support travelling for a year etc etc.

 

You're right that that is the stock response but I have never understood it.

 

You dont need to lidt all 3,500. You just very visibly lift 10 and publicly name them and ban them from the stadium.

 

Then at the next game, you do the same. Then the same at the next game. And so on

 

Pretty soon, you may not have got rid of it but you'd soon cut it down IMO

 

GC

[stevie]

I have some sympathy for the guy,other teams fans sing this song on a more regular basis than we do and i have never heard of anyone being pulled up.That said,as much as i used to like singing "hello hello"(the cleaner version)we all know that it is deemed unacceptable.

[Sharpie]

And ironically, the only charge I was found "not guilty" on was the one charge I was actually guilty of....providing a false name at half time before being picked up at full time!

 

 

Arrest actions for singing songs sectarian or otherwise was never anything I had to do. I would suspect in these PC days police are instruc ted when at games to be aware of individuals, I stress individuals, at games who are doing that which in todays society is seen as very wrong. I stress that in my days in Scotland at football games not much other than fighting provoked police action.

 

Please understand I am not judging you, I will however say having been involved with the police at half time, and with the reputation the police particularly at football games seem to have garnered, it may be wise, probably not right, that you have to pull your behavioral horns in a bit so as not to stand out amongst the crowd. Am I reading your comments wrong as I don't quite understand, it seems you were arrested at full time, was the action not taken during the actual singing, seems strange way to do things, but there is no doubt things have c hanged in the last 40 odd years.

 

With regard to the police evidence, again in the past, during training it was stressed the importance of good record in a notebook, this is where the evidence presented in Court comes from, not just memory.

 

With regard to the "Not Guilty" for the false name I have seen often where a judge will after having imposed as seemed to be the case here a quite heavy sentence will dismiss supplementary minor cases.

 

I am not as I have been called before the gamekeeper joining the poacher, I am aware though of strange instructions police officers receive from senior personnel. I have no knowledge at all about football policing, but can quite see a policy, or an continuing instruction at football games not to take action that could incur basically mob action. With the seated stadiums in Scotland which I never experienced it certainly is much easier to target individuals.

[chimpos]

Harsh justice, he has been singled out to teach a lesson to others. which has worked a little as i for one will now be singing:

 

' we are up to our knees in chips and grease'

[I.T.K]

I have some sympathy for the guy,other teams fans sing this song on a more regular basis than we do and i have never heard of anyone being pulled up.That said,as much as i used to like singing "hello hello"(the cleaner version)we all know that it is deemed unacceptable.

 

I have some sympathy for him, after a few beers and in the company of others signing it hard to think you would be caught.

I hope it works as a stark warning to others not to follow the crowed.

 

[Acey]

And ironically, the only charge I was found "not guilty" on was the one charge I was actually guilty of....providing a false name at half time before being picked up at full time!

 

Nothing can possibly go wrong with confessing to a crime on a football forum.

[Therapist]

Nothing can possibly go wrong with confessing to a crime on a football forum.

 

I'd love to see Donald Jr hit with the sort of made-up charge that Hearts fans are often subjected to. I'm sure he'd change his tune.

 

Sadly, this is unlikely as he doesn't go to games.

[Hereward]

Nothing can possibly go wrong with confessing to a crime on a football forum.

 

He was found not guilty of that offence at his trial. Is he likely to be re-tried based on the evidence provided here?

[redm]

And Spanky....

 

Not read past this post yet but I have always sung Hibbee blood and never the f***** version. Not sure saying you want to be up to your knees in Hibbee blood is fully sanitised but it is not sectarian.

 

And do you find yourself surrounded by people who are doing the same thing and singing the same version?

 

Maybe I'm just unfortunate in where I end up seated either at Tynecastle or any away ground that I visit but I genuinely only ever hear the bad version around me. Perhaps there are one or two well intended souls in amongst them singing the hibee version but they're most certainly not audible.

 

Thing is, semantics and loopholes, ifs and buts aside, why the heck would anyone risk singing it at all when they know perfectly well that there's a fair chance it could (rightly or wrongly) get them in trouble? Seems like a ridiculous gamble to me, especially when the penalties are so likely to take from you one of the things you love the most PLUS there's the potential for a criminal record. Is it really worth it? All of that for the right to sing about being up to our knees in some blood? That's the bit I can't get my head around.

[dc-jambo]

We have dropped the other Rangers songs that were sang back in the day (do u want a list??); time to drop this one, too

[Pants Shaton]

And Spanky....

 

 

 

And do you find yourself surrounded by people who are doing the same thing and singing the same version?

 

Maybe I'm just unfortunate in where I end up seated either at Tynecastle or any away ground that I visit but I genuinely only ever hear the bad version around me. Perhaps there are one or two well intended souls in amongst them singing the hibee version but they're most certainly not audible.

 

Thing is, semantics and loopholes, ifs and buts aside, why the heck would anyone risk singing it at all when they know perfectly well that there's a fair chance it could (rightly or wrongly) get them in trouble? Seems like a ridiculous gamble to me, especially when the penalties are so likely to take from you one of the things you love the most PLUS there's the potential for a criminal record. Is it really worth it? All of that for the right to sing about being up to our knees in some blood? That's the bit I can't get my head around.

 

I vacillate on this issue and, until recently, felt the best approach was for Hearts fans to avoid singing any form of this song to avoid the hassle and to avoid being tainted by association with the odious Rangers FC.

 

However, any law which places restrictions upon freedom of speech must have a really strong justification i.e. evidence that such speech causes harm - nobody has the right to 'not to be offended'. The sectarianism laws are laughable because of how inconsistently (and infrequently) they are enforced - 3500 neanderthals in the School End flagrantly contravene them 4 times a year. Frankly singing about Fenian blood is unpleasant and pathetic but (especially at a football match) it should not constitute a criminal offence - should someone's livelihood be affected by the heinous offence of singing 'Hello Hello'?

 

I'm all for London Jambo's suggestion that L&B police / stewards should eject as many sectarian Rangers / Celtic fans as they are able to at each match - it would soon put an end to their 'party songs'.

 

I've always been a 'Hibee blood' man - the image it evokes is absurd (albeit unpleasant)and hardly incitement to violence and it allows us to continue singing one of our best songs without any justified charge of religious bigotry. Just pure unadulterated anti-Lochend bile.

 

I'll no doubt change my mind in a few weeks.

[Therapist]

We have dropped the other Rangers songs that were sang back in the day (do u want a list??);

 

What songs? Please supply a list because I think you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

Songs like "The Sash" etc - if that's what you're referring to - do not belong to one football club. They belong to Scotland's/Britain's Unionist/Protestant community.

[redm]

I vacillate on this issue and, until recently, felt the best approach was for Hearts fans to avoid singing any form of this song to avoid the hassle and to avoid being tainted by association with the odious Rangers FC.

 

However, any law which places restrictions upon freedom of speech must have a really strong justification i.e. evidence that such speech causes harm - nobody has the right to 'not to be offended'. The sectarianism laws are laughable because of how inconsistently (and infrequently) they are enforced - 3500 neanderthals in the School End flagrantly contravene them 4 times a year. Frankly singing about Fenian blood is unpleasant and pathetic but (especially at a football match) it should not constitute a criminal offence - should someone's livelihood be affected by the heinous offence of singing 'Hello Hello'?

 

I'm all for London Jambo's suggestion that L&B police / stewards should eject as many sectarian Rangers / Celtic fans as they are able to at each match - it would soon put an end to their 'party songs'.

 

I've always been a 'Hibee blood' man - the image it evokes is absurd (albeit unpleasant)and hardly incitement to violence and it allows us to continue singing one of our best songs without any justified charge of religious bigotry. Just pure unadulterated anti-Lochend bile.

 

I'll no doubt change my mind in a few weeks.

 

Of course, I couldn't agree more with pretty much everything you've said. But a Jambo getting arsey and refusing to bend to the law because 'they other smelly types get away with it' doesn't really help anyone either, does it? It's all very well standing up for your rights but there's a way to do that....and getting yourself arrested for singing sectarian songs isn't really the most effective way to get your point across.

 

When I hear Jambos singing "Hello Hello" the first thing that springs to mind isn't "Oh listen, my fellow Jambos are protecting their rights to free speech again. How brave they are."

 

It's not fair...the OF get away with murder and we don't. But life isn't fair and no number of dodgy songs are going to change that. Sometimes we just have to suck it up and play smart until we work out an effective way to do it....i.e. a method that doesn't involve getting arrested, criminal records, court appearances, ending up banned from Tynecastle (and everywhere else), paying fines OR damaging the reputation of the club we profess to support and in whose name we sing the dodgy songs in the first place. Seems a no brainer to me, really....but then I'm not overly fond of these party songs anyway so.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Acey]

I'd love to see Donald Jr hit with the sort of made-up charge that Hearts fans are often subjected to. I'm sure he'd change his tune.

 

Sadly, this is unlikely as he doesn't go to games.

 

0/10

 

He was found not guilty of that offence at his trial. Is he likely to be re-tried based on the evidence provided here?

 

Probably not, but it's hardly the brightest move, all things considered.

[Therapist]

Will you be at Tynecastle on Saturday for our fixture against Hamilton Academicals, Donald Jr?

[Acey]

Will you be at Tynecastle on Saturday for our fixture against Hamilton Academicals, Donald Jr?

 

No. I will be at Tynecastle on Saturday for our fixture against Hamilton Academical.

[Therapist]

No. I will be at Tynecastle on Saturday for our fixture against Hamilton Academical.

 

As if.

[Acey]

As if.

 

 

Thinly-veiled "I've got nothing", imo.

[Only a Game]

And ironically, the only charge I was found "not guilty" on was the one charge I was actually guilty of....providing a false name at half time before being picked up at full time!

 

I am guessing that you had not committed an offence before half time so providing a false name at half time in the circumstances you were asked, although silly, probably couldnt have resulted in you avoiding prosecution (since there was no offence at that time)so thats probably why you were found not guilty of that charge.

 

As far as the police evidence goes, they are allowed to refresh their memory from notes taken AT THE TIME. As bob sharp says, if they have their notes properly made up they are entitled to use those both during and prior to giving evidence. You cant expect them to remember every little detail and they'll have been wise enough to read their notes before they gave evidence.

 

If they both said you used sectarian language during the song and they are lying then yes, of course you have been fitted up. I cant remember from your previous posts if you accepted you used sectarian language. If you did use it then your guilty(even if it was just one single sectarian word), the fact that others did it makes not a blind bit of difference, they were simply lucky not to have been arrested. Perhaps you're previous dealings with the police at half time marked you out for special attention, maybe you gave them a bit of lip, who knows, only you. Also you dont say if you were with anyone who could have backed up your story that you didnt use sectarian language. Back in the day for most breach of the peace charges there had to be evidence that you had "failed to desist" i.e the police had warned you and if you didnt then stop you got arrested. It seems this doesnt apply anymore, or maybe it just doesnt apply when its sectarian

 

By the way, You're not seriously thinking about going to the game this weekend are you, because there is every chance that the guys in the security box with the cameras will have your photo right there with them. Being arrested defying a football banning order is going to make a ?700 fine seem like a slap on the wrist and 3 minutes on the naughty step.

[Peebo]

Yep, they had me on camera proving I was down the back of the south stand having a fag at half time but in no way have me on camera singing/chanting/being abusive etc. The only evidence they had was the word of 2 policemen who, over a year later, somehow remember the incident as if it was yesterday and were 100% certain in every aspect of evidence they gave.

 

Stitch up!

 

If time elapsed from the incident in question in any trial diminished the strength of evidence, you wouldn't have many successful prosecutions.

[4marsbars]

What songs? Please supply a list because I think you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

Songs like "The Sash" etc - if that's what you're referring to - do not belong to one football club. They belong to Scotland's/Britain's Unionist/Protestant community.

 

In the context of Scottish football, any claim that The Sash is not a Rangers song, or implication that a song belonging to the Orange (not Protestant, please, most Protestants are not Orange) community has anything to do with any other team, is sophistry.

[the general]

Good luck mate I hope your lawyer does appeal but as usual the costs might make him advise you to just accept this.acab

[I P Knightley]

Songs like "The Sash" etc - if that's what you're referring to - do not belong to football.

 

Spot on, Therapist.

[Piper X]

I have some sympathy for the guy,other teams fans sing this song on a more regular basis than we do and i have never heard of anyone being pulled up.That said,as much as i used to like singing "hello hello"(the cleaner version)we all know that it is deemed unacceptable.

Agree with post 100%. Whether we like it or not, regardless of our viewpoint, or opinion, the song is controversial and therefore not acceptable.

Why cant we just deal with that fact and move on?? I sing almost every song with gutso enthusiasm, and I love nothing more than winding up our opposition as much as possible. However, that song, quite clearly, offends some, if not the majority, of our OWN support. Or at very least, it makes people uncomfortable, and runs the risk of our club being fined or worse. So why bother??

Others on here claim that the song is rousing and adds to the atmosphere. It used to. But so does the Euro song, and that is sung with even more enthusiasm than the Hello song, as any regular to Tynie will tell you. Whats more its unique to Hearts, and not some re-worded ditty invented by a skanky gang from the East end of Glasgow.

Personnaly, I hate being tagged as a "plastic Hun" on account of a minority of people who are obviously quite happy to carry that mantle.

When the Hello chant starts I dont even entertain it. Simple. It doesnt spoil my enjoyment of the game, it doesnt spoil the atmosphere and more importantly, Im not risking the slight chance of losing my ST or a banning order.

There are rules and regulations in every walk of life, if you stay within the boundaries of those rules, there are no issues.

[the general]

As if.

Spot on T

[Therapist]

Good luck mate I hope your lawyer does appeal but as usual the costs might make him advise you to just accept this.acab

 

Exactly - that's the Catch 22. A lot of people simply can't afford to defend the original charge or mount an appeal so they take the conviction as an easy way out.

 

This was exactly what happened in the "Train of Hate" incident where the guys who fought it had the charges dropped. The others took a BotP conviction simply because they couldn't/didn't want to spend money on a decent lawyer.

[Ulysses]

Yep, they had me on camera proving I was down the back of the south stand having a fag at half time but in no way have me on camera singing/chanting/being abusive etc. The only evidence they had was the word of 2 policemen who, over a year later, somehow remember the incident as if it was yesterday and were 100% certain in every aspect of evidence they gave.

 

Stitch up!

 

 

Honest question: What exactly were you singing?

[davemclaren]

Exactly - that's the Catch 22. A lot of people simply can't afford to defend the original charge or mount an appeal so they take the conviction as an easy way out.

 

This was exactly what happened in the "Train of Hate" incident where the guys who fought it had the charges dropped. The others took a BotP conviction simply because they couldn't/didn't want to spend money on a decent lawyer.

 

 

What is the 'train of hate'?

[invernessjt]

?700 fine is a joke for something so trivial. Scottish police are a really bad joke.

[Sharpie]

?700 fine is a joke for something so trivial. Scottish police are a really bad joke.

 

 

Fair enough to blame the police for the arrest if there was one, but they cannot be held responsible for the fine imposed by a judge.

[Therapist]

What is the 'train of hate'?

 

I will tell you when you buy me a pint.