Putting young players into perspective

[Rees1874]

Celtic have won the SPL reserve league in the last 6 consecutive seasons since 2001-02 and have also won the SPL U19 league in 4 of the last 5 seasons.

 

Celtic are a real shame for young players as all bar a very few hit a glass ceiling in that they are continually overlooked in favour of bought in stars thus even those who do get some games seldom get the chance to develop their full potential at Celtic.

 

Only McManus & McGeady could be considered regulars and they of course are excellent young players - and Maloney earned a ?1 Million move to Aston Villa but others like O'Dea, Kennedy, Sno only play ocassionally - promising midfielders Teddy Bjarnason & Ross Wallace had to move away to get a chance of regular football - Ross Wallace was sold for approx ?400K at 22 years old and Celtic then spent ?1.2M on 31 year old Paul Hartley & ?1.25 Million on 29 year old Barry Robson.....

 

Ross Wallace wasn't quite at the stage of those 'finished article' players however if they'd given him the chance to progress he might have become good enough to save them buying Hartley & Robson - certainly Wallace was good enough to play 20+ Premiership games for Sunderland this season as well as their Championship winning team last year. It's the same with Evander Sno who is stuck behind Brown, Donati, Hartley & Robson who've all been brought in ahead of him. Recently 18 year old Paul Caddis played a couple of excellent games at right back yet as soon as Hinkel & Mark Wilson are fit again he's back out the picture - not even a substitute.

 

Scotland U21 Captain & left back Scott Cuthbert & 20 year old striker Paul McGowan who play in Celtic's reserves would be great additions to Hearts squad but they don't even get a look in at Celtic - not because they lack talent but simply because Celtic are completely focused on short term goals, using mostly senior players to try to win trophies even if this means killing their own youngsters chances to play & improve - even if they've spent years developing them only to prevent them taking the final step up - not only that it is costing them a lot more financially to buy & pay senior (international) players when they could almost certainly still be successful and challenge for major honours by using more of their own players - it's just so inefficient & wasteful..........

 

 

While i agree with nearly your whole post, and hat off to you for all your points, i disagree with your part on how they are only focussed on short term goals. It should be every teams ambition at the start of the season to challenge for the league which i think you'll agree, Celtic's goals must be 2 win as many trophies as they can for the season which would obviously bring in more financial gain for them. If celtic (or even rangers) can win the league then they get into the champions league which we all know is a massive bumper 2 the cash flow, so whilst it looks as if they dont focus on long term goals it is how they have became so succesfull (not forgetting the GFA bias towards them with every bit of help they can get) and can afford 2 pay over the top wages and prices (i know that their attendance figures and owner count for this but you can see how many more fans u can bring in if your successfull).

 

All in all a great post

[Charlie-Brown]

While i agree with nearly your whole post, and hat off to you for all your points, i disagree with your part on how they are only focussed on short term goals. It should be every teams ambition at the start of the season to challenge for the league which i think you'll agree, Celtic's goals must be 2 win as many trophies as they can for the season which would obviously bring in more financial gain for them. If celtic (or even rangers) can win the league then they get into the champions league which we all know is a massive bumper 2 the cash flow, so whilst it looks as if they dont focus on long term goals it is how they have became so succesfull (not forgetting the GFA bias towards them with every bit of help they can get) and can afford 2 pay over the top wages and prices (i know that their attendance figures and owner count for this but you can see how many more fans u can bring in if your successfull).

 

All in all a great post

 

Obviously qualifying for the Champions League is very important in terms of finance & prestige however Celtic were still managing to win the league & able to give Ross Wallace & Evander Sno (for example) more games than since they brought in Gravesen (31) Hartley (31), Donati & Robson (29) - all they did was kill the chances of those kids getting more time & opportunities to fully develop at Celtic. (Not that I care about Celtic in any way but it's a shame for those young players that nearly all of them have to move away to get a game.)

[Coco]

You fail to grasp reality. All the young players you mentioned were brought into a team surrounded by seasoned pros slowly and nurtured. The starting team on Saturday included 7 from the Acadamy and 4 others who cost less than ?500k. It is a big ask for all of them to mature at once. These player will more than hold there own against players of similar age as they prove when they are on International duty.If Driver does not develop into a better player than all the above mentioned ( bar Craige maybe ) Ill show my a____se

 

Much as I think Driver has been a good player for us this season, the idea that he will develop into a better player than Craig Gordon, Craig Levein, Robbo, Gary Naysmith is far fetched at the moment. Gary Mackay and Gary Locke would be the first targets to get past on that scale but he has a lot to do to go past Gary Mackay at this point!

 

I suspect that you might be

[lambojambo]

Reading this vindictive thread I cant help contrasting some fans reaction to all those who got behind Paul Ritchie and Alan McManus when Jeffries threw them into the first team defence. It was not always like this.

 

 

That's because the fans could see they actually had some football ability - unlike Clum!

[Seymour M Hersh]

Frail will be the next "Romanov casualty". Campbell Ogilvie's "promotion" is also bad news.

 

Info I received yesterday.

 

Nearly 24 hours later and you don't appear to have had the hutzpuh to elaborate on your comment. Any particular reason?

[Drylaw Hearts]

Nearly 24 hours later and you don't appear to have had the hutzpuh to elaborate on your comment. Any particular reason?

 

Pardon ?

[Jammy T]

Whether or not a young player is good enough or has enough potential to be good enough for a football club is one thing.

 

Whether or not they should be abused and despised as human beings as a result is quite another.

 

If Hearts are a team full of players deemed not good enough this vitriol should be aimed elsewhere not at 18 or 19 year old boys

[lambojambo]

Whether or not a young player is good enough or has enough potential to be good enough for a football club is one thing.

 

Whether or not they should be abused and despised as human beings as a result is quite another.

 

If Hearts are a team full of players deemed not good enough this vitriol should be aimed elsewhere not at 18 or 19 year old boys

 

 

IMO the booing has been aimed more at Frail for picking Elliot, rather than Clum himself.

[Jammy T]

IMO the booing has been aimed more at Frail for picking Elliot, rather than Clum himself.

 

IMO it isnt Frail's fault at the dearth of options he has.

 

He didnt flog Velicka or marginalise Bednar

 

Still there is quite a lot of hatred every second thread on here aimed at boys under 20.

 

Its not right

[Coco]

IMO it isnt Frail's fault at the dearth of options he has.

 

He didnt flog Velicka or marginalise Bednar

 

Still there is quite a lot of hatred every second thread on here aimed at boys under 20.

 

Its not right

 

It was disappointing to hear the abuse screamed at players like Mole and Elliot on Saturday. And when they were actually playing quite well too.

[Sherlock]

...Still there is quite a lot of hatred every second thread on here aimed at boys under 20.

 

Its not right

 

Correct. It's not right.

 

It's shocking & embarrassing.

[lambojambo]

IMO it isnt Frail's fault at the dearth of options he has.

 

He didnt flog Velicka or marginalise Bednar

 

Still there is quite a lot of hatred every second thread on here aimed at boys under 20.

 

Its not right

 

No it's not Frails fault however, he is basically a PR mouth piece for Romanov toeing the party line.

 

With regards to the "hatred" comment - I don't hate Elliot and I don't hate Mole.

 

I do however HATE the shambles my Club is in at present.

[Makween]

No it's not Frails fault however, he is basically a PR mouth piece for Romanov toeing the party line.

 

With regards to the "hatred" comment - I don't hate Elliot and I don't hate Mole.

 

I do however HATE the shambles my Club is in at present.

 

I think that it's your fault. Which makes at least as much sense as blaming the young players.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Pardon ?

 

Bit of a cold and I sneezed mid type!!!

[lambojambo]

I think that it's your fault. Which makes at least as much sense as blaming the young players.

 

 

Your right. It is my fault - I resign with immediate effect.

[hawaii]

Find it shocking the difference between Hearts and Hibs fans towards youngsters.

 

Mind you that could be cos all Hibs fans are in on the gag to build up any "conveyor belt" youngster as the next Maradona in order to get ?5m from the OF.

 

Perhaps if all the Elliott haters on here were to instead scream from the rooftops that Barca are scouting Calum Elliott we might manage to sell him for a few bucks instead of ruining the lads career and having him shipped out on a free to Raith or Livvy. It's got to be worth a try if you call yourself a Hearts fan - surely??

[lambojambo]

Find it shocking the difference between Hearts and Hibs fans towards youngsters.

 

Mind you that could be cos all Hibs fans are in on the gag to build up any "conveyor belt" youngster as the next Maradona in order to get ?5m from the OF.

 

Perhaps if all the Elliott haters on here were to instead scream from the rooftops that Barca are scouting Calum Elliott we might manage to sell him for a few bucks instead of ruining the lads career and having him shipped out on a free to Raith or Livvy. It's got to be worth a try if you call yourself a Hearts fan - surely??

 

 

Let's put the "All things Hobo is pish" aside for a minute and have a look at the facts no matter how unpalatable.

 

Hibs have brought through real quality players through their ranks (yes I know that comment is tantamount to treason on here!!).

 

Brown, Whittaker, Riordan, Thomson, O'Connor, Fletcher, immediately showed ability and as such there was no reason for their fans to give them any stick.

 

Meanwhile Hearts were bringing through Sloan, Weir, Hammil, Elliot, Mole, etc.

 

I rest my case!

[magicTs]

Let's put the "All things Hobo is pish" aside for a minute and have a look at the facts no matter how unpalatable.

 

Hibs have brought through real quality players through their ranks (yes I know that comment is tantamount to treason on here!!).

 

Brown, Whittaker, Riordan, Thomson, O'Connor, Fletcher, immediately showed ability and as such there was no reason for their fans to give them any stick.

 

Meanwhile Hearts were bringing through Sloan, Weir, Hammil, Elliot, Mole, etc.

 

I rest my case!

 

That's about the sum of it and anyone who can't see it has seriously blinkered maroon specs on. Since the early eighties in an attacking sense we have brought through one top drawer striker, 1 good SPL striker and 1 good wide man. Pathetic really.

[Praha06]

I'll give you a softer option if you don't want to elaborate too much.

 

Just confirm who it's bad news for.

 

Bad news for Mr Ogilvie. Romanov wants rid. He has been put up to be shot down. Much the same with Frail.

 

Just remember what happened to Burley and Anderton when they became popular.

[Sherlock]

Bad news for Mr Ogilvie. Romanov wants rid. He has been put up to be shot down. Much the same with Frail.

 

Just remember what happened to Burley and Anderton when they became popular.

 

Cheers for clarifying.

 

Hopefully, considering that CO has been involved in football administration since the 70's, he's long enough in the tooth to be able out-manoeuvre any skulduggery.

[iamcraigbeattie]

Problem with the young boys these days. There put in at the deep end, now im not saying this is a bad thing but what they need is experienced stable english speaking figures around them. Gone of the days of fatherly figures on the football pitch. It depresses to me to think this is the future of HMFC.

[dreamydays]

No he wasn't. IIRC JR only broke 20 league goals for us once, I think in 86, prior to the World Cup where we were the only nation not to take their top league goal scorer. His average was probably nearer 16/17. Sure someone at London Hearts could confirm this and he had the luxury of playing in a much more settled side with better players around him for much of his time at Hearts.

 

Given what we have on the books just now, who exactly would you play..

 

Calum has had a rough time of late but it's fair to say that his form dropped after being sent to Motherwell on loan.

 

While not the most gifted player we have, he tries his heart out every time he plays - maybe tries a bit to hard - which is more than can be said for some around the club.

 

If you want to slaughter our own players, that's your right but don't think for one second that you're helping the situation by doing so.

 

If you want to do this on forums like this, knock yourself out, if your doing this at games - stay in the house.

 

Agreed- though I think the OP should both knock himself out and stay at home. I think Mole and Elliot could make a good strike partnership and I agree with frail on this one... it's all about if they can play together and their link-up play was promising at times on Saturday. OP- let it breathe for **** sake!!

[lambojambo]

Agreed- though I think the OP should both knock himself out and stay at home. I think Mole and Elliot could make a good strike partnership and I agree with frail on this one... it's all about if they can play together and their link-up play was promising at times on Saturday. OP- let it breathe for **** sake!!

 

 

On what valid football evidence have you based this opinion on?

[colingwood]

It is undoubtedly a harsh environment at Celtic but they would argue that you have to be good enough to play. In the last 5/6 years they have brought through Maloney, Marshall, Beattie, Miller, McGeady, McManus, O'Dea and Wallace. Obviously they are not all of the same quality but they all played in the CL and the ones who moved on did so to reasonable clubs and they have tried hard to keep the best. The point about Celtic is their margin for error is much tighter than at most other clubs as the consequences of failure can be more telling. The fact remains though that that is a fairly impressive list compared with the large majority of other clubs when you are talking about bringing through real lasting quality. In addition to the above they also brought through John Kennedy who was injured playing for his country, spent the best part of three years recuperating and then broke down again playing against AC Milan in the Champions League. Hardly a bit part player.

[SAMBOMAN]

Let's put the "All things Hobo is pish" aside for a minute and have a look at the facts no matter how unpalatable.

 

Hibs have brought through real quality players through their ranks (yes I know that comment is tantamount to treason on here!!).

 

Brown, Whittaker, Riordan, Thomson, O'Connor, Fletcher, immediately showed ability and as such there was no reason for their fans to give them any stick.

 

Meanwhile Hearts were bringing through Sloan, Weir, Hammil, Elliot, Mole, etc.

 

I rest my case!

 

Lets look at the bigger picture, for a young player to make his way into the first team a few things have to happen before this takes place.

 

1. A scout with an eye for a player spots the boy and the club takes him in.

 

2. Quality coaches make sure the boys develop and exceed the potential that was spotted in them.

 

3. We have a clear pathway for the best young talent to gain experience gradually in the first team which will benefit us long term.

 

4. Supporters accept that young players will not make an immediate impact and will need time to fulfil their potential.

 

WE HAVE NONE OF THE ABOVE AND AS SUCH OUR ACADEMY CANNOT SUCCEED UNTIL THE ABOVE POINTS ARE RECTIFIED.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Bad news for Mr Ogilvie. Romanov wants rid. He has been put up to be shot down. Much the same with Frail.

 

Just remember what happened to Burley and Anderton when they became popular.

 

This would be the shi tty icing on the shi tty cake.

[John Findlay]

I have to confess I have a problem when pundits and all and sundry say a footballer of say 19/20yrs old is still learning the game. You see I dont exactly know what they mean by this and I will tell you why.

 

Most laddies with an interest in football(maybe I am only speaking for myself here) begin playing competitive football in a structured format aged 8. Even that young you can tell a laddie with skill, and most importantly here a good footballing brain as, he instinctively just knows what to do, where to position himself on the park etc etc. This is where I think it goes wrong. Instead of fitting that laddie into a team, they coach a laddie not to do the things that his football brain is telling him to do.

 

The most annoying thing in modern football is coaches in the technical area screaming at a player what to do with the ball when he has it. Why? A good player knows what he is going to do with it and if he doesnt then both he and the alleged coach should be shot(metaphorically speaking).

 

The best football coaches/managers do the least amount of coaching as they know good footballers can do it themselves. Coaches/managers have a large part to play in the mental toughness of players turning them into WINNERS instilling a WE SHALL NOT BE BEATEN MENTALITY.

 

The other thing far to much sway is giving to tactics and formations, this blowing out of all proportion and importance. Football is a simple game it really is but, those that keep wittering on about tactics are only covering for their own shortcomings.

 

As the great Sir Matt Busby said. They knew how to play football and all I did was let them play. When they did things and they didnt come off it was still the right thing to do as it meant they were using their footballing brains and football has and always will be in my humble opinion 90% in the head and 10%in the feet. To many people are making a simple game complicated and there is no need too.

 

 

 

John

[Charlie-Brown]

It is undoubtedly a harsh environment at Celtic but they would argue that you have to be good enough to play. In the last 5/6 years they have brought through Maloney, Marshall, Beattie, Miller, McGeady, McManus, O'Dea and Wallace. Obviously they are not all of the same quality but they all played in the CL and the ones who moved on did so to reasonable clubs and they have tried hard to keep the best. The point about Celtic is their margin for error is much tighter than at most other clubs as the consequences of failure can be more telling. The fact remains though that that is a fairly impressive list compared with the large majority of other clubs when you are talking about bringing through real lasting quality. In addition to the above they also brought through John Kennedy who was injured playing for his country, spent the best part of three years recuperating and then broke down again playing against AC Milan in the Champions League. Hardly a bit part player.

 

Celtic have produced some very good young players but the point I was making was they didn't need Zurawski or Killen taking squad places when they already had Beattie - did they really need to sign Hartley who doesn't play every game when R.Wallace is almost a decade younger and could fill that role .... signing Gravesen & Donati & Robson only pushed youngsters Sno & Bjarnason further back in the queue so much so that Bjarnason decided to leave.

[The White Cockade]

whether Elliot or Mole are good enough is irrelevant

If you are a Jambo you support your team

even more so with the young guys whose confidence can easily take a knock

Considering Driver was thrown into the first team from nowhere and has done so well the abuse he gets on here is unbelievable

A youngster in his first full season will never play consistently well but he has shown enough flashes of talent to think he will be a good un

Likewise Mole hardly played in the reserves before being flung in last season and I think he also shows promise

Elliot is maybe closer to the make or break point as he has more experience but again he did well 2 years ago in a good team

its hard for anyone to do well in the current shambolic situation

We better hope our youth system is better than we think as with the Mentalist seemingly giving up on coughing up transfer fees more of the under 19's will be coming into the team in the next year or two

[Seashell]

Driver is just turned 20, he has struggled a lot of this season with strained hammy's. He is one of our brightest and able players who when completely fit will then show us what he is made of. We have seen flashes of this at the tail end of last season with the nice goal against the hobo's and Celtic free kick. I also think Andrew plays better along side Larry and they link up well!

 

As for Mole, I was at a reserve match recently, (stMirren/Hearts) Jamie played extremely well in the first half covering a lot of grass and looking hungry. He scored twice too. He petered out a wee bit in the second half but all in all a good performance. The whole team did that day apart from Benny who looks heavy and not fast! Maybe a wee run for Mole along side the likes of Larry and Andrew feeding him with Nade to partner him, he may just show us all what he is made of.

[Robbos Right Peg]

As for Mole, I was at a reserve match recently, (stMirren/Hearts) Jamie played extremely well in the first half covering a lot of grass and looking hungry. He scored twice too. He petered out a wee bit in the second half but all in all a good performance. The whole team did that day apart from Benny who looks heavy and not fast! Maybe a wee run for Mole along side the likes of Larry and Andrew feeding him with Nade to partner him, he may just show us all what he is made of.

 

Sorry michelle but this sounds like another 'team bonding' night out at Bar Roma and I think that Nade has had more pasta than is good for him already. And I doubt Kingston and Nade will ever play in the same Hearts side again. Why dont you go for the full house and say Pinella might help him on if they played together.

[Seashell]

Sorry michelle but this sounds like another 'team bonding' night out at Bar Roma and I think that Nade has had more pasta than is good for him already. And I doubt Kingston and Nade will ever play in the same Hearts side again. Why dont you go for the full house and say Pinella might help him on if they played together.

 

Pinilla would certainly help if he is ever fit!!!! Maybe I'm an optimist.

 

 

Not saying that I would necessarily play Mole, just what I saw that day makes me think thats why Frail has added him to the 1st squad again, suppose he seems him week in week out too.

 

Another player who can hit the back of the net, (doesn't do much else mind) is Makela. He scored twice today and I know he was not up to full fitness but part of me wonders if he may feature in the near future???