Vlad Complains Against Impaling Policy

[johnjl]

erm, okay.

 

give me a sensible reason why a doubling of fines is appropriate in this context then. a simple "it deters repeat offending" doesn't cut the mustard. a repeat fine would be quite adequate to deal with a repeat of the same 'crime' of having some players shown a number of cards during a number of football games. don't forget that the annual fine is a sanction on top of the existing punishment of seeing your players suspended for matches throughout the season.

 

exactly right. say hearts don`t buck the trend of recent years - if the trend of doubling the fine is repeated over and over again within a few years our annual fine for indiscipline would be about 25 million a year. is that fair?

[johnjl]

Indeed.

 

 

 

Agree the OF games being "different" is an issue worthy of debate, but thats another debate altogether IMO.

 

And whilst I think there is little doubt "different" rules are applied in OF games, I think (to some degree at least) the same applies with edinburgh derby, or cup finals etc. Refs tend not to want to make controversial (or game changing) decisions in big games.

 

As for players getting treated differently re the same offence, I think every fan of every team in the world would say the refs treat their players more harshly than others. Very difficult thing to be "unbiased" about. IMO

 

it`s the same arguement an organisation who admit to bending the rules on some occassions is an organisation that is well down the road of inequality.

[Victorian]

exactly right. say hearts don`t buck the trend of recent years - if the trend of doubling the fine is repeated over and over again within a few years our annual fine for indiscipline would be about 25 million a year. is that fair?

thankfully the doubling up seems to have ceased. even the SFA appear to have realised that it would become so ridiculous that it would eventually come under scrutiny. i doubt they would relish their rules coming under too much of that.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I would disagree that this is a different issue for the following reason.

 

If Celtic are playing Rangers, and said X player is not sent off or booked because the ref (SFA) has decided that they need to show "common sense" in this game. This is instantly bias towards the OF. Imagine if there was about 4 players who could have actually been sent off or booked; therefore missing the next few games. Games which, for the teams they are playing, could be a push for Europe, or a battle for relegation.

 

 

I agree that is an issue. It's also an issue (to a lesser extent) when Hearts play Hibs, Or Dundee play Dundee Utd.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

erm, okay.

 

give me a sensible reason why a doubling of fines is appropriate in this context then. a simple "it deters repeat offending" doesn't cut the mustard. a repeat fine would be quite adequate to deal with a repeat of the same 'crime' of having some players shown a number of cards during a number of football games. don't forget that the annual fine is a sanction on top of the existing punishment of seeing your players suspended for matches throughout the season.

 

I think an increase in fine each time an offender repeats an offece is perfectly normal. If you can't even admit that much, there is little point attempting further debate on the issue.

[johnjl]

thankfully the doubling up seems to have ceased. even the SFA appear to have realised that it would become so ridiculous that it would eventually come under scrutiny. i doubt they would relish their rules coming under too much of that.

my point was really that doubling it up was ridiculous in the first place.

[johnjl]

I think an increase in fine each time an offender repeats an offece is perfectly normal. If you can't even admit that much, there is little point attempting further debate on the issue.

not double though JR. that is just plain unfair surely?

[Guest JamboRobbo]

not double though JR. that is just plain unfair surely?

 

I'd agree with your point that it can't just be doubled and doubled and doubled. But I think an increase for a repeat offence is perfectly normal. What are the facts? It started at 5 or 10k, about 5 years ago? And it's 60k now?

[Victorian]

I think an increase in fine each time an offender repeats an offece is perfectly normal. If you can't even admit that much, there is little point attempting further debate on the issue.

you surely mean if i can't simply accept your opinion as being correct then there no point attempting to debate the issue further.

 

that's that one kaput then.

 

apologies for having an opinion.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

you surely mean if i can't simply accept your opinion as being correct then there no point attempting to debate the issue further.

 

No, i mean if you are unwilling to admit the most obvious of things (e.g. that the principle of increasing punishment for repeating of offences is perfectly normal) just to try and cause further argument, then there is little point attempting to debate with you.

[Victorian]

my point was really that doubling it up was ridiculous in the first place.

yep, i agree. it was ridiculous and thankfully a shred of common sense eventually prevailed.

[7628mm]

exactly right. say hearts don`t buck the trend of recent years - if the trend of doubling the fine is repeated over and over again within a few years our annual fine for indiscipline would be about 25 million a year. is that fair?

 

What I would like to know. What is an improvement?

 

1 sending off and 3 less yellows per season?

 

In the eyes of the SFA no improvement year on year and below is the consequence

 

60,000 this year

120,000 next

240,000 the year after

480,000 in 2013

960,000 in 2014

1,920,000 in 2015

[Victorian]

No, i mean if you are unwilling to admit the most obvious of things (e.g. that the principle of increasing punishment for repeating of offences is perfectly normal) just to try and cause further argument, then there is little point attempting to debate with you.

i'm not trying to cause an argument. you appear to be the only one doing that.

[Lovecraft]

I agree that is an issue. It's also an issue (to a lesser extent) when Hearts play Hibs, Or Dundee play Dundee Utd.

 

 

Exactly - to a lesser extent.

[johnjl]

I'd agree with your point that it can't just be doubled and doubled and doubled. But I think an increase for a repeat offence is perfectly normal. What are the facts? It started at 5 or 10k, about 5 years ago? And it's 60k now?

it is all a matter of scale. IMO given the current financial climate levying a ?60,000 pound fine is nothing short of appalling.

[johnjl]

Exactly - to a lesser extent.

 

this is the entire point imo. people just blindly accept that this is ok. if it happens with other derbies to a lesser extent there lies the problem. generations of old firm bias eventually becoming the norm. then it takes an outsider who is unaware of the history of it all (romanov) to come in and say "hold on what the **** is going on here?"

 

the sfa obviously don`t like this and in turn deal with it the only way they know how, the way they have dealt with dissent for decades. exercise bias towards anyone who speaks out against them.

[Lovecraft]

this is the entire point imo. people just blindly accept that this is ok. if it happens with other derbies to a lesser extent there lies the problem. generations of old firm bias eventually becoming the norm. then it takes an outsider who is unaware of the history of it all (romanov) to come in and say "hold on what the **** is going on here?"

 

the sfa obviously don`t like this and in turn deal with it the only way they know how, the way they have dealt with dissent for decades. exercise bias towards anyone who speaks out against them.

 

 

Straight away - this is 4 games a year (at least) where OF players will be booked less than anyone else. Games in which there are one set of rules for them, and one set for the rest.

 

These are the games when the referees need to be strong, not weak.

 

Everyone knows, if refs have bad games against the OF, the chances of been given any big games (if such a thing exists in Scotland) will quickly disappear.

[Amjam]

Whether the referee is fair or not the only thing, as a club, that we can do is clean up our act.

I suppose our suits could talk to the other club's suits and try to put pressure on the powers that be that way, but how long would it take for any agreement to be reached?

 

We can whine and moan about the refs being harder on us than anyone else, but it's a moot point. Either way the only action we can take is to give them as little chance as possible to book us.

[Dazo]

Decisions good or bad are all part of football. Big clubs all over the world get the breaks in their own leagues. I think awareness of those 2 things will stop me getting over excited on these matters. We have had plenty of decisions go our way against the OF with one notable decision giving me the best day of my hearts supporting life.

[interista]

it is all a matter of scale. IMO given the current financial climate levying a ?60,000 pound fine is nothing short of appalling.

 

When compared with the paltry fines levied on Spain and the Netherlands after the World Cup Final, it seems over the top to say the very least.

[Big G]

Is it in the rules that the SFA can double/triple fines? Or is it down to a committee's own discretion?

[132goals1958]

for me this is the most important point. presumably somebody somewhere created a benchmark in order for clubs' respective disciplinary records to be compared against it. there has to be some kind of threshhold whereby a club goes beyond it and becomes liable to sanction, or not as the case may be. assuming such a thing exists, is anyone actually aware of it? is it an officially known parameter to the clubs?

 

the other thing about the way fines are imposed is the business whereby clubs become ensnared within the punitive action and then find it difficult to get out. in the past fines have been doubled on the basis of the club's record not improving. not necessarily getting any worse... simply not improving. how does that represent natural justice? surely if you transgress the 'rules' to the same level as the previous year then your punishment should be proportionate. this has led to us being fined double the previous year's amount while not actually being the current season's worst offender.

 

add all this to the fact that the SFA are in effect a 'one stop shop' of administration, policing and prosecution of whatever insidiously derived rules are in place, as well as the grateful recipitants of monetary punitive action meted out by themselves and you have one giant melting pot of self interest.

 

 

Absolutely spot on. It is astonishing that the governing body has apparent carte blanche to impose disciplinary punishment as they see fit. Scottish Football is in financial turmoil, and yet an exorbitant and ridiculously excessive ?60000 fine is to pass into their coffers. To put this in context, it represents income lost from some 3000 spectators, or around 20% of income at a home game. Only in Scottish football, or some banana republic could this kangaroo court type justice exist. The debacle at Hamilton where the officials had a nightmare, and also the Zal incident at Pittodrie demonstrate all that is dishonest and shameful with the game in Scotland. I fully understand the difficulties that referees encounter, especially when players feign injury or go down too easily. That does not give the referees or the SFA some reciprocal reason to effectively con the public by refusing to consider clear-cut evidence that an injustice /unwarranted booking/sending off occurred. In the Hamilton game I recall Craig Thomson winning the ball as clean as a whistle only to receive a yellow card. . The referee probably made an honest mistake, but by not availing himself of the opportunity to rescind the caution he displayed a level of arrogance, which basically short changes the public. I can only presume the articles of association are wide and ranging and permit those discriminatory fines to be meted out on what resembles an ad hoc basis. What is undeniable is the frequency of bad decisions which penalise both players and clubs .The only surprise is that Hearts have not taken a more vigorous stance on this issue notwithstanding there has been indiscipline within their ranks

[berrasbraw]

Does anyone actually know how much they goons have fined us in total since Vlad came in?

[audrey65]

even better in 1ps but not in a case lol

 

Would not be legal tender. 1p coins only considered legal up to a value of 20p under the Coinage Act 1971......

[EreWeG0..]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BIIyAVRxUE

 

Don't mess with Vlad!

[N User]

If you have watched Hearts on a regular basis (or even semi-regular) since Vlad took over, then you would see that referees do not give our players the benefit of a doubt.

 

In matches where Hearts players are booked, opposition players are given warnings for similar tackles.

 

Christian Nade recieved two yellow cards at Ibrox. For the first he was clearly fouled by Davy Weir. For the second he kicked the ball out wasting time - the correct decision, but usually ignored against other players.

This type of thing has been happening regularly to us and not just against the old firm.

[Ben Dover]

Indeed.

 

 

 

Agree the OF games being "different" is an issue worthy of debate, but thats another debate altogether IMO.

 

And whilst I think there is little doubt "different" rules are applied in OF games, I think (to some degree at least) the same applies with edinburgh derby, or cup finals etc. Refs tend not to want to make controversial (or game changing) decisions in big games.

 

As for players getting treated differently re the same offence, I think every fan of every team in the world would say the refs treat their players more harshly than others. Very difficult thing to be "unbiased" about. IMO

 

You wheel this one out every time the question of bias is raised JR

Now it's probably true that nearly ALL fans, in the heat of the moment, will claim "we wuzz robbed" but you steadfastly refuse to admit the possibility that we WERE indeed being treated harshly. In fact my view is that it took, bizarrely enough, a few members of the weegie press to 'suggest' that we were not 'getting the rub of the green' before it abruptly stopped, or at least went down a notch or two ?

[gorgie rd eh11]

Decisions good or bad are all part of football. Big clubs all over the world get the breaks in their own leagues. I think awareness of those 2 things will stop me getting over excited on these matters. We have had plenty of decisions go our way against the OF with one notable decision giving me the best day of my hearts supporting life.

 

 

 

I'd love to know the "plenty" of decisions that have went our way against the OF.

 

I have worked out that we got the benefit of a 50/50 decision 12 years ago, but i must have been at the pie shed when we were benefiting from all these other decisions.

[Plato]

Heart of Midlothian should make a case to the sport arbitration court.

As I see it, this is double punishment, the players and the club have already been punished by missing games etc.

It is an accumalative punishment and virtually impossible to get back to square one.

We are not a dirty team.

[john brownlee]

i'm not trying to cause an argument. you appear to be the only one doing that.

 

 

shirly you must know that you can never win an argument with an idiot because they just wear you down. common fact amongst some KB posters especially if it suits their agenda

[132goals1958]

Heart of Midlothian should make a case to the sport arbitration court.

As I see it, this is double punishment, the players and the club have already been punished by missing games etc.

It is an accumalative punishment and virtually impossible to get back to square one.

We are not a dirty team.

 

Agreed -- its like getting a parking ticket and then having the fine doubled for every successive offence

[Zico]

In fact my view is that it took, bizarrely enough, a few members of the weegie press to 'suggest' that we were not 'getting the rub of the green' before it abruptly stopped, or at least went down a notch or two ?

 

That's when you knew it was bad - I don't think it was just the red tops, but most newspapers were mentioning how we were consistently on the end of bad decisions. Then things coincidentally got a bit better!

 

Regarding the fine, I think it was primarily for the reds (don't think we compared too badly on yellows) and at least three we received - Stewart's vs Hamilton, Larry's vs Kajagoogoo and most criminally, Jose's against St Johnstone - were never red cards (I also think Bouzid's vs Hamilton was extremely harsh but others may disagree).Due to the mental appeals system, we only got one overturned. So we get punished by losing a player unfairly, it's virtually impossible to appeal as the individual dishing out punishment has to admit he's wrong, so we then get punished via suspensions, then we get punished financially partly due to the errors of individuals employed by the body dishing out the fine! You couldn't make it up.

 

So while we do need to try to control the only factor we can control - our discipline - to think that the only factor in our card count is the players' discipline ignores a series of other issues. We've been more harshly dealt with than other teams since CL's stance against Doogie McHobo, the Davis incident and Vlad's monkey mafia rants. I've seen the facts with my own eyes!!

[Seymour M Hersh]

What I would like to know. What is an improvement?

 

1 sending off and 3 less yellows per season?

 

In the eyes of the SFA no improvement year on year and below is the consequence

 

60,000 this year

120,000 next

240,000 the year after

480,000 in 2013

960,000 in 2014

1,920,000 in 2015

 

Very good point. What is classed as improvement enough to avoid another fine. Zero transparency from the GFA probably means the club has no idea. Where is the justice there?

[Boba Fett]

Very good point. What is classed as improvement enough to avoid another fine. Zero transparency from the GFA probably means the club has no idea. Where is the justice there?

 

Quite agree. Incidently (and apologies if already posted), we had 10 red cards and 89 cautions last season. The sheep had 10 red cards and 74 yellows and were fined ?5,000. 15 yellows and ?55,0000 worse off... s'no fair!

[alwaysthereinspirit]

I'm just glad our manager has more sensible views on this than our owner, and realises that sorting out the discpline of the side is the way to go, rather than blaming others.

 

http://sport.scotsma...arts.6451546.jp

 

 

Never understood your personal rants about US fixing OUR disciplinary record. If not all cards are warranted (and they're not) then whats not broken cant be fixed. We get cards for nothing and they go directly on our record. This makes the numbers askew and we have no recourse. The system sucks and you are wrong on your point.

[Ben Dover]

And another thing

Gordhun Smith all but promised us a change in the appeals procedure, following Brine's refusal to back down over Zals alleged head butt offence - an incident that even Stevie Wonder couldn't mistake ?

And what has changed within the appeals process, as we enter a second season since the incident - absolutely diddly squat.

[rudi]

HEARTS owner Vladimir Romanov has broken his silence on the record ?60,000 fine his club must pay for its poor disciplinary record in the last year. Lithuanian businessman Romanov in comments to top Russian football website www.fairfootball.ru declared: "After five years in Scottish football nothing can surprise me any more. They live in a virtual world created by monopolies. It's impossible to come up with any criticism or an initiative. One can somehow exist in that world but it is not for a decent person to live in."

 

Yet another gem from our Lithy Leader.Some may scorn his views but as is often the case he has a valid point. We have all witnessed some of the most appaling refereeing decisions made against Hearts in recent years and especially last year.Zaliuskas may not be an angel but the SFA certainly seems to have him as a target man for red cards. (Even the Tiny Tims complained last year!) I am convinced that the unwritten message has gone out to clamp down heavily on HMFC.This combined with ineptitude from the Match Officials has led to a great deal of victimisation.(Althouth Micky Stewart did not help the cause).

 

A club is punished severely by having their players banned for important games. A fine on the club is only applicable if that club is seen to be encouraging and aiding their players to play in such a manner. Hearts did not do this in any way. Thus we have been robbed of a substantial amount of money.This money deprives us of getting players and merely lines the pockets of the S F A Establishment. If we comlain we are fined yet again.(Catch 22)

 

Yes Vlad this is definitely not a decent way to behave. Thanks for sticking with us and not packing your bags and leaving us to the wolves.

All I can say is,Vlad if your not happy,sell to someone who really wants to be here and GTF.

 

 

Can't be arsed reading through the other posts but I can imagine some people will be,on one hand,salivating at the fact the great one has communicated and on the other hand frothing at the mouth because once again he has blamed another of our failings on someone else.

[rudi]

Quite agree. Incidently (and apologies if already posted), we had 10 red cards and 89 cautions last season. The sheep had 10 red cards and 74 yellows and were fined ?5,000. 15 yellows and ?55,0000 worse off... s'no fair!

If they are the worst offenders 6 years on the bounce then I'm pretty sure the SFA would act in the same way,oh and can anyone tell me why our previous CEO or what ever his title was would want to deliberately hamper his own team?

[johnjl]

All I can say is,Vlad if your not happy,sell to someone who really wants to be here and GTF.

 

 

Can't be arsed reading through the other posts but I can imagine some people will be,on one hand,salivating at the fact the great one has communicated and on the other

hand frothing at the mouth because once again he has blamed another of our failings on someone else.

 

What an awful post. Firstly sell to who exactly? Secondly his comments were quite rightly directed at the unfairness of the sfa. Even posters who are very much in the anti- vlad camp agree the sfa are biased towards the old firm.

 

But you just crack on and form your opinions on the thread without reading it. A wee bit like the ref who wouldn't look at the video evidence of the larry sending off at pittodrie cos he knew he was right.

[johnjl]

If they are the worst offenders 6 years on the bounce then I'm pretty sure the SFA would act in the same way,oh and can anyone tell me why our previous CEO or what ever his title was would want to deliberately hamper his own team?

 

One good man on a rotten to the core organisation doesn't mean it is suddenly squeaky clean

[Everybody loves Baz]

What an awful post. Firstly sell to who exactly? Secondly his comments were quite rightly directed at the unfairness of the sfa. Even posters who are very much in the anti- vlad camp agree the sfa are biased towards the old firm.

 

But you just crack on and form your opinions on the thread without reading it. A wee bit like the ref who wouldn't look at the video evidence of the larry sending off at pittodrie cos he knew he was right.

 

 

Ignore rudi, as you guess by the name he's still living in the past.

 

He peddles this pish in "sell up Vlad", "Vlad GTF", But never comes up with a solution ??????

[Francis Albert]

All I can say is,Vlad if your not happy,sell to someone who really wants to be here and GTF.

 

 

Can't be arsed reading through the other posts but I can imagine some people will be,on one hand,salivating at the fact the great one has communicated and on the other hand frothing at the mouth because once again he has blamed another of our failings on someone else.

Yes Vlad, please make a choice from the many queuing up to buy you out.

And please Vlad, stop pretending, by turning down multi-million pound bids for players, and increasing a wage bill that we already can't afford, that you have ANY commitment to Hearts.

[rudi]

What an awful post. Firstly sell to who exactly? Secondly his comments were quite rightly directed at the unfairness of the sfa. Even posters who are very much in the anti- vlad camp agree the sfa are biased towards the old firm.

 

But you just crack on and form your opinions on the thread without reading it. A wee bit like the ref who wouldn't look at the video evidence of the larry sending off at pittodrie cos he knew he was right.

And that is why the dims were complaining last season.

 

At least I can form my own opinions without some crackpot from some far off land spouting pi5h along with his dim witted son just to get feeble minded souls on their side.

 

I know of NO football fan who DOESN'T think that their team have been badly treated by refs,EVERY season.

 

The important thing is that the man now(almost) in charge knows full well that our disciplinary record is our own doing and is hopefully sorting it out,tell me this though,if our disciplinary record is far better this season after all that JJ has said will you accept that it has been mostly our players fault?

[rudi]

One good man on a rotten to the core organisation doesn't mean it is suddenly squeaky clean

Okay,who are the rotten eggs in the SFA,can you name a few?

[rudi]

Ignore rudi, as you guess by the name he's still living in the past.

 

He peddles this pish in "sell up Vlad", "Vlad GTF", But never comes up with a solution ??????

As is your leader,he peddles the same pish about an organisation that "can't be trusted" as I say if he's not happy leave,it's how normal people go about things.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

As is your leader,he peddles the same pish about an organisation that "can't be trusted" as I say if he's not happy leave,it's how normal people go about things.

 

 

Cuckoo, cuckoo.

[Everybody loves Baz]

As is your leader,he peddles the same pish about an organisation that "can't be trusted" as I say if he's not happy leave,it's how normal people go about things.

 

 

GIVE US A SOLUTION rudi !!!!!!!!!!

[johnjl]

And that is why the dims were complaining last season.

 

At least I can form my own opinions without some crackpot from some far off land spouting pi5h along with his dim witted son just to get feeble minded souls on their side.

 

I know of NO football fan who DOESN'T think that their team have been badly treated by refs,EVERY season.

 

The important thing is that the man now(almost) in charge knows full well that our disciplinary record is our own doing and is hopefully sorting it out,tell me this though,if our disciplinary record is far better this season after all that JJ has said will you accept that it has been mostly our players fault?

 

Aye you go ahead and form your opinions and mind not let things like facts or real life events or anything else get in the way of them. When your opinions are formed remember to stick to them like glue and no matter what the person you formed your opinion on does just ignore it and stick to your opinion.

 

Also form your opinion on things you haven't even read like this thread. Then use your imagination to mould them into what suits your preconceived ideas on what might have happened.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion after all

[Guest jambomickey]

GIVE US A SOLUTION rudi !!!!!!!!!!

no need to shout colin.

[Everybody loves Baz]

no need to shout colin.

 

He just gets on ma thruppnies with his repetitive pish Mick