Father Tiresias Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 Sorry, I didn't mean to generalise - just making the point that the people I've seen defending the tram (singular) here and elsewhere always happen to be resident outside of the city. I'm sure there are people living in Edinburgh who think it's a great idea; I just haven't come across any. Of course, many people who don't live in the city have the same opinion as the majority - that this is a spectacular waste of money that the people of Edinburgh and Scotland will be paying for in years to come. I live in Edinburgh and am in favour of the tram. I am also in favour of a congestion charge on the Edinburgh city limit to hammer those who chose to work in Edinburgh but live in Fife, West Lothian and the likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 That's just the point there won't be long term benefits! The tram business case was wrongly presented as having a large number of people living on the waterfront. This development crashed along with the economy.They are wasting all this money to replace 17 buses! Not 17 routes just the one No22 route! They also claim it will run to the airport. Now this is wrong! The terminal will be passed the coach and taxi park, rather a long walk with luggage! In the mean time they are to run buses from the airport to the tram terminal at Gogar which means people will board a bus at the airport,change onto a tram, change again to a bus or taxi, to take them to their hotel! All this can be done with ONE airport bus! All these problems before we even consider what will happen with a breakdown or accident! The waterfront development will still complete but just a few years later. It will run to the airport. How far from the terminal do you think the tram stop will be, you won't get a bus to the tram stop from it. What tram system in the world doesn't have breakdowns or accidents. I don't hear many digging them up these days due to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Wiseau Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 I suppose it's then a question of your priorities. So you see, then, where this "get what you deserve" philosophy falls down? If the electorate have the option of voting SNP or implicitly supporting the trams, whether they agree with their policies or not, this means if someone who does not usually vote SNP votes that way as a protest, they can't complain if the SNP councillors then implement policies they don't like. After all, they voted SNP, they "got what they deserved". With regards your other points, the remainder of our single line has been cancelled indefinitely, let alone the rest of the network. It will be a hell of a lot more than 3 years before we see anything beyond the half line in place (God knows how long, if ever), which is what I was driving at. I also accept that there are successful tram networks in other European cities. However, I don't think the limited benefits our line will bring the people of Edinburgh (bearing in mind that it will serve about 1 in 6 citizens max) are worth anything like the costs. Anyway, this is all veering very much off topic now - shed, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 So you see, then, where this "get what you deserve" philosophy falls down? If the electorate have the option of voting SNP or implicitly supporting the trams, whether they agree with their policies or not, this means if someone who does not usually vote SNP votes that way as a protest, they can't complain if the SNP councillors then implement policies they don't like. After all, they voted SNP, they "got what they deserved". With regards your other points, the remainder of our single line has been cancelled indefinitely, let alone the rest of the network. It will be a hell of a lot more than 3 years before we see anything beyond the half line in place (God knows how long, if ever), which is what I was driving at. I also accept that there are successful tram networks in other European cities. However, I don't think the limited benefits our line will bring the people of Edinburgh (bearing in mind that it will serve about 1 in 6 citizens max) are worth anything like the costs. Anyway, this is all veering very much off topic now - shed, anyone? How can my philosophy fall down on the fact that might get what you vote for? If you vote for candidates with 'build the trams' in their manifesto then it only seems reasonable that they feel they have the right to pursue that. Nothing on the current tram line has been cancelled afaik. Work might have stopped pending agreement with the contractors but no confirmed plans to shrink it have been confirmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Wiseau Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 How can my philosophy fall down on the fact that might get what you vote for? If you vote for candidates with 'build the trams' in their manifesto then it only seems reasonable that they feel they have the right to pursue that. Nothing on the current tram line has been cancelled afaik. Work might have stopped pending agreement with the contractors but no confirmed plans to shrink it have been confirmed. Because it's not reasonable to say "if you vote for a party that voted for the tram, you get what you deserve when they build them, so you can't complain", when only one party opposed the tram. If you don't support that party's views on other issues, you presumably can't complain if you vote for them and they implement policies you don't agree with. The only other option available - to abstain - is no use, as the logical extension of that philosophy is, "you didn't vote for anyone, so you get what you deserve and can't complain either". This leaves anyone who doesn't support the tram or the SNP's politics (perfectly reasonable position for a voter to be in) in a virtually impossible position and as such, the logic of the philosophy is flawed. Secondly, you're right. "Cancelled" was the wrong word to use, but substitute it for "postponed" or "shelved" and you'll get there. The point is, they're not getting built any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 Because it's not reasonable to say "if you vote for a party that voted for the tram, you get what you deserve when they build them, so you can't complain", when only one party opposed the tram. If you don't support that party's views on other issues, you presumably can't complain if you vote for them and they implement policies you don't agree with. The only other option available - to abstain - is no use, as the logical extension of that philosophy is, "you didn't vote for anyone, so you get what you deserve and can't complain either". This leaves anyone who doesn't support the tram or the SNP's politics (perfectly reasonable position for a voter to be in) in a virtually impossible position and as such, the logic of the philosophy is flawed. Secondly, you're right. "Cancelled" was the wrong word to use, but substitute it for "postponed" or "shelved" and you'll get there. The point is, they're not getting built any time soon. I'll have to disagree with you on the first point. Political manifestos come as a package and you have to vote on that basis. I agree that it seems there will be substantial delays to the build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Wiseau Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 I'll have to disagree with you on the first point. Political manifestos come as a package and you have to vote on that basis. I agree that it seems there will be substantial delays to the build. OK, then let's say (hypothetically) that I am a citizen who refuses to vote for anyone that supports the tram, but will not vote for a party that supports the break up of the Union either. Who do you suggest I vote for? You're correct here, Dave, but you're not right. Democracy is all about choice and your philosophy appears to give a substantial portion of the electorate no choice. I'm actually quite enjoying this new and improved, off the fence Dave McLaren. Good debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairdin Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 I live in Edinburgh and am in favour of the tram. I am also in favour of a congestion charge on the Edinburgh city limit to hammer those who chose to work in Edinburgh but live in Fife, West Lothian and the likes. If it wasn't for the over-inflated housing market in Edinburgh, I doubt I would ever have left the city to buy somewhere to live. Alot of people born and bred in Edinburgh now live in Fife and Central Scotland and commute 'home' for work everyday through no fault of their own. And now that we live outside Edinburgh we can see from afar the complete and utter shambles that is your council and their tram line. When I moved out here, as an Edinburgh lad I always imagined moving back ASAP. Now, I doubt I'll be back. I bet I'm not alone. But yeah, impose a congestion charge on us and we'll pay for the ego trip of the councillors the people of Edinburgh elected. Aye, good one. The tram is a shambles. Everyone knew it would be a shambles - except the politicians and councillors who used it as an excuse to put one-over the new SNP administration who tried to block it. Hope you enjoy it when it is built. You'll be paying fot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 OK, then let's say (hypothetically) that I am a citizen who refuses to vote for anyone that supports the tram, but will not vote for a party that supports the break up of the Union either. Who do you suggest I vote for? You're correct here, Dave, but you're not right. Democracy is all about choice and your philosophy appears to give a substantial portion of the electorate no choice. I'm actually quite enjoying this new and improved, off the fence Dave McLaren. Good debate. Then, if there is sufficient demand appropriate candidates should emerge reflecting your views OR some of the current pro tram parties/candidates wil realise that it's a vote loser and they will change their policies. However, if people continue to vote for them when the main plank of their poilcy is to spend half a billion on trams... I'm always off the fence, it's just that people don't realise it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Wiseau Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 Then, if there is sufficient demand appropriate candidates should emerge reflecting your views OR some of the current pro tram parties/candidates wil realise that it's a vote loser and they will change their policies. However, if people continue to vote for them when the main plank of their poilcy is to spend half a billion on trams... I'm always off the fence, it's just that people don't realise it. Agree with that in the main, and hopefully there will be such an emergence to challenge the mainstream parties into changing their minds. However, I don't expect for a moment that they will drop their heads out of ther own arses for long enough to care about public perception. You're also forgetting the impact of PR on the make up of the Council. Whatever the vote, it is almost certain to be a coalition in the aftermath of any election and many of these people will find themselves elected again, regardless. Similarly, the tram has already had hundreds of millions spent on it - there's very little that voting out the culprits (many of whom are already bombed) can achieve in real terms at this stage. The blame games doing the rounds in the council and Parliament mean that many people will be unaware, or have misconceptions over who is responsible. I read a quote the other day where a Labour MSP (I think) blamed the tram fiasco on the SNP, as they were the governing party when the vote was taken! Crazy stuff. Perhaps I'm mistaking "on the fence" for "not antagonistic". That said, it's fact that anyone around here who doesn't get involved in slagning matches with Google images of Captain Picard and crying Dawsons is a lily livered, sweetie rustling, on the fence, PC gone mad liberal leftie socialist fop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMA MAROON Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 You could never vote for the separatists just to get rid of the trams. That would be ridiculous. We just have to take this extreme punishment and pay up because we deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 The arrogant thickwits who forced the tram project on the city, massively against public wishes but possible as punishment for we citizens having the temerity to say no to congestion charges, should imho, be put in prison for this complete and avoidable disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 You could never vote for the separatists just to get rid of the trams. That would be ridiculous. We just have to take this extreme punishment and pay up because we deserve it. Quite, it's all about priorities when voting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabbie754 Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 Don't forget the Tories and Greens also voted for it. It was the same in the council. 15 Labour, 17 Lib Dems, 11 Tory & 3 Green councillors voted for the trams. The 12 SNP councillors voted against, argued for a referendum to let the Edinburgh citizens decide. As usual the SNP are on the ball, maybe more people should listen to what the SNP have to say as they were right all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabbie754 Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 I bet the tyni high skool has never contributed to the tram stop, that's a new build, but of course is cooncil project, as usual one law for them and another for us. Another thing shirley the tram stops should be part of the original costing not an after thought con', designed to screw money out of unsuspecting projects.[/font] There was a section 75 agreement which included a contribition from the developer to the trams. This is a PFI project (another thing stopped by the SNP) which the council will have to pay for thirty years. That's why there is no money in the education budget as s ?millions goes to pay back PFI schools that the council don't own. Half empty new schools while the rest are falling down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.