Jon Venables identity revealed? (merged threads)

[missed98]

Transcripts from the original trial stated that James' underpants were soaked in blood and he had certain injuries - as for the rest, I'm sure if you do a search for it you'll find it somewhere, but it doesn't make for pleasant reading. There have always been strong suggestions that agreement was reached between the prosecution and defence that some of the most graphic evidence would not be presented at the trial, mainly to spare the family.

 

I am slightly apalled at some people's views on this, well done Boris for making the point before me, but really people, how many of you have 10 year olds? Children are very much a product of their upbringing, most 10 year olds know right from wrong and understand consequences of actions etc, because their parent's/guardians, peers and education teach them these things. I don't know much about the case other than what was reported at the time but i would be flabbergasted if these 2 kids had anywhere near a normal upbringing.

 

Of course that doesn't take away from their own responsibility and therefore consequences of their actions, but it seems wholly right and appropriate that they be treated as children and not adults, i don't see why there should be an exception in this or any other case involving a 10 year old.

 

As for the current situation, I don't see any benefits by naming him. It won't give the victims family any peace of mind that i can think of and it won't benefit the justice system.

 

The only people who will benefit will be the press !!!!

[Jamboy81]

Sorry, but from reading transcripts from the case it's pretty clear to me that it was calculated. Yes, some of what they did was fairly childish, but it's clear that it got to a point where it was obvious they were going to kill him. Laying his body across the rail tracks was also a calculated act.

 

 

And I think that point probably came quite late on. I don't believe they decided in the shopping centre to murder him. By the time it got to the railway they had already gone too far - and were trying to cover their own tracks, as kids do. I don't think at the time they ever grasped the seriousness of what they were doing.

[blondejamtart]

And I think that point probably came quite late on. I don't believe they decided in the shopping centre to murder him. By the time it got to the railway they had already gone too far - and were trying to cover their own tracks, as kids do. I don't think at the time they ever grasped the seriousness of what they were doing.

 

 

No, I don't believe they set out with the intention of murder either - but I do believe that there came a point where their actions did become more calculating.

I'm a mother - my children are in their teens now, but I know that at 10, both knew right from wrong, but were also capable of acting in quite a calculated manner when it suited them. As I've also said before, I don't think we are ever going to know exactly what led Venables and Thompson to act in the manner they did, or just what went on in their upbringing to influence their behaviour.

[JKBMod 6]

REMINDER

 

There is a ban on publishing any information that might lead to the identification of those convicted in the James Bulger case. Please DO NOT post anything of this nature regardless of whether or not you believe it to be authentic.

[Taffin]

Whatever it was, it was so awful that it made two 10 year old boys capable of committing a brutal and violent murder of a toddler. I don't think an upbringing gets much worse than that.

 

People aren't born 'bad'.

 

How do you know that?

Everyone can say the acts the commit are products of their social environment, it is a potentially endless get-out clause. The collective welfare must be given more importance than the individuals rights in a scenario like this.

 

As Major said at the time 'We must understand a little less, and condemn a little more.'

[missed98]

How do you know that?

Everyone can say the acts the commit are products of their social environment, it is a potentially endless get-out clause. The collective welfare must be given more importance than the individuals rights in a scenario like this.

 

As Major said at the time 'We must understand a little less, and condemn a little more.'

 

 

I highlighted both points because in my opinion, they contradict one another. It's not a get out clause, it's a statistically provable fact. Rates of crime are statistically relevant to uneducated, poor and deprived areas, where drug and alcohol abuse and domestic abuse are more prevalent. It is potentially endless though that's for sure.

 

If we ignore the individual's right we potentially ignore a far wider problem. Again, i'm not suggesting that the individual shouldn't be held accountable for their actions, but to say that it is just "an act of evil" and move on, ignores the fundamentally bigger issue.

 

In my opinion, two ten year olds committing an atrocity like this should not be held individually responsible ALONE, something, somewhere has gone very wrong. Having them tried as adults and then been seen as justice being served is sweeping the problem under the carpet.

[jambojackbilly]

The murder was horrific, committed in a tragic hideous way which is heart breaking

 

Those kids involved in the deadly act were taken away from their apparent troublesome background ( certainly one of them )then given the best care and attention the system could and did offer.Not a bad return all considered

 

They would have been told in no uncertain terms that due to the nature of their crime and the public awareness/disgust that after all was put in place for them best keep the head down and become a good citizen no matter what

 

It seems Venables is above all this and has been a pest on numerous occasions culminating in his return to prison.If found guilty he should lose his anonymity or are we continually gonny protect the guilty in this country Re of crime

 

If venables is charged and found guilty does he merit being protected as he goes through the system ?? and on his eventual release ??

 

Dont think so, he's 27 and had his chance, if he's blown it TOUGH

[Sterling Archer]

Just saw a facebook group re this. There's an awful lot of internet hardmen (and women) who are going to give this guy a doing if they find out his name.

 

Really a bit ironic I think.

 

Personally I think he should remain in jail but I totally back the idea to protect his identity. Anyone who thinks the Sun or any other paper actually cares about James Bulger or his family are kidding themselves. They're using this manhunt to sell papers and it's a bit sick really.

[jambojackbilly]

Just saw a facebook group re this. There's an awful lot of internet hardmen (and women) who are going to give this guy a doing if they find out his name.

 

Really a bit ironic I think.

 

Personally I think he should remain in jail but I totally back the idea to protect his identity. Anyone who thinks the Sun or any other paper actually cares about James Bulger or his family are kidding themselves. They're using this manhunt to sell papers and it's a bit sick really.

 

 

I think we are all more than aware of the Tabloid morals thanks

 

 

So why protect venables identity as a convicted adult, assuming he is charged and found guilty

 

No way, had yer chance, pay the price Re and that goes for all those types

[2NaFish]

No way, had yer chance, pay the price Re and that goes for all those types

 

Whats "the price" he has to pay exactly?

[Taffin]

I highlighted both points because in my opinion, they contradict one another. It's not a get out clause, it's a statistically provable fact. Rates of crime are statistically relevant to uneducated, poor and deprived areas, where drug and alcohol abuse and domestic abuse are more prevalent. It is potentially endless though that's for sure.

 

If we ignore the individual's right we potentially ignore a far wider problem. Again, i'm not suggesting that the individual shouldn't be held accountable for their actions, but to say that it is just "an act of evil" and move on, ignores the fundamentally bigger issue.

 

In my opinion, two ten year olds committing an atrocity like this should not be held individually responsible ALONE, something, somewhere has gone very wrong. Having them tried as adults and then been seen as justice being served is sweeping the problem under the carpet.

 

 

Poor and deprived areas do lead to drug abuse, domestic abuse etc, they are effects of a poor social background, but they are not evil as such. Even a drugs related murder isn't an evil act, it is a product of the background but something like a calculated murder of an innocent child (whether by an adult or child) is different. It is evil, there is something so cold and chilling there,it isn't a drunk coming home from the pub and giving his wife a slap (also abhorrent btw) but it runs deeper than upbringing. I know lots of people who get caught up in bad stuff mainly due to where they are from and who they go about with, but they would never ever have done something like that

[Sterling Archer]

I think we are all more than aware of the Tabloid morals thanks

 

 

So why protect venables identity as a convicted adult, assuming he is charged and found guilty

 

No way, had yer chance, pay the price Re and that goes for all those types

 

He should be protected for his own safety. In the same way that the witness protection programme works. The country can't hang someone out to dry like that, if they do it sets a very dangerous precedent for the future.

 

We'd end up with a very draconian justice system or something that rivals that seen more often in the developing world, that's not something I particularly want.

 

I don't think he should be out of jail but if he is then he has the right to not fear for his life twenty four hours a day. Similarly, if he is in jail, he should be allowed to serve his sentence, not be murdered before then.

 

Say someone did murder him, would your eye for an eye approach dictate that a lynch mob murder them? Who is it that would decide who's a "good" murderer and whos a "bad" murderer? It's just not possible.

 

He will pay the price that the justice system in this country tells him to, whether it's just or not doesn't really matter.

[Meadows]

Anyone else get a text naming him and where he lived...?

[Jamboy81]

Whats "the price" he has to pay exactly?

 

He should lose his identity, imo. Otherwise it's sending out the wrong message to criminals.

 

"Commit an atrocity, and get second chance and new name. But don't bother about keeping clean. Arse it up and you'll get a another new ID, and all at the Tax payers expense!!"

 

He should also be sentenced harshly because he is is on life license. A fair trial would take into account his past history, but this wont be the case if he holds anonymity. There is a feeling he is being treated as a special case. Remember he's not 10 anymore. He's an adult and he is not above the law. Rules is Rules.

[Sterling Archer]

He should lose his identity, imo. Otherwise it's sending out the wrong message to criminals.

 

"Commit an atrocity, and get second chance and new name. But don't bother about keeping clean. Arse it up and you'll get a another new ID, and all at the Tax payers expense!!"

 

He should also be sentenced harshly because he is is on life license. A fair trial would take into account his past history, but this wont be the case if he holds anonymity. There is a feeling he is being treated as a special case. Remember he's not 10 anymore. He's an adult and he is not above the law. Rules is Rules.

 

I think Shaun mentioned earlier that there's the possibility his trial is conducted infront of only a judge and not a jury of his peers, thereby allowing his past to be accounted for.

[2NaFish]

He should lose his identity, imo. Otherwise it's sending out the wrong message to criminals.

 

 

Don't get coy now.

 

He loses his identity and he will be murdered (lynched seems more appropriate but dont know if that encompasses murder) by an angry mob. If thats the sort of society you want to live in, one where vigilante murder as vengence is condoned, then i think you need to have a look at yourself.

[Sterling Archer]

Don't get coy now.

 

He loses his identity and he will be murdered (lynched seems more appropriate but dont know if that encompasses murder) by an angry mob. If thats the sort of society you want to live in, one where vigilante murder as vengence is condoned, then i think you need to have a look at yourself.

 

[jambojackbilly]

Don't get coy now.

 

He loses his identity and he will be murdered (lynched seems more appropriate but dont know if that encompasses murder) by an angry mob. If thats the sort of society you want to live in, one where vigilante murder as vengence is condoned, then i think you need to have a look at yourself.

 

 

It's not an easy one to find the right answers.I for one don't promote the Lynch mob

 

But it seems some want the guilty protected allowing those that commit the crime the luxury of anonymity when caught sentenced and released

 

Someone accused of Rape Re of innocence can have his name printed, mud sticks but if you are an adult and previously a child murderer then you need protected mm

[Deek]

Anyone else get a text naming him and where he lived...?

 

I got a name and a town 5 minutes ago, but whether or not it is him is speculation at this point. I would wait until the tabloids have there day and wont be passing it on.

[2NaFish]

It's not an easy one to find the right answers.I for one don't promote the Lynch mob

 

You dont promote it, but you facilitate it? Nope. Atleast someone who promotes it can hide behind the defence of being a moron; someone who facilitates it is promoting it by the back door.

 

Either you believe this man deserves to die by the hand of a mob or you dont. Please dont promote one mode of practise and then shirk the responsibility of accepting what it will lead to.

[missed98]

He should lose his identity, imo. Otherwise it's sending out the wrong message to criminals.

 

"Commit an atrocity, and get second chance and new name. But don't bother about keeping clean. Arse it up and you'll get a another new ID, and all at the Tax payers expense!!"

 

He should also be sentenced harshly because he is is on life license. A fair trial would take into account his past history, but this wont be the case if he holds anonymity. There is a feeling he is being treated as a special case. Remember he's not 10 anymore. He's an adult and he is not above the law. Rules is Rules.

 

 

I refer to you my earlier point, he wasn't treated as a 10 year old when he was one, so apparently rules aren't rules....

 

I'm not trying to defend him, if he can't rehabilitate then off back to jail he goes, oh wait, that's what has happened. I just don't see how anyone gains anything (other than the press) from naming and shaming him, in fact it's far more likely to cause even more trouble and potentially with someone else ending up committing a criminal act.

[Patrick Bateman]

 

But it seems some want the guilty protected allowing those that commit the crime the luxury of anonymity when caught sentenced and released

 

Hardly a "luxury" more a practical way of maintaining order. But it's easier for the reactionary Paediatrician attacking mass public to understand this case on a purely reactionary and media-informed basis. They aren't intelligent enough to see things any other way.

[theshed]

Anyone else get a text naming him and where he lived...?

yes i just got the text thats going around telling me his name, where he lives and what he got put back inside for...could be a load of single fish mind you

[H.A.N.S]

That's the texts started with supposedly his real name and address, anyone else get it?

[Say What Again]

sorry HANS, but why would anyone text me (or most members here I suspect) his new identity and address?

[Jamboy81]

I refer to you my earlier point, he wasn't treated as a 10 year old when he was one, so apparently rules aren't rules....

 

I'm not trying to defend him, if he can't rehabilitate then off back to jail he goes, oh wait, that's what has happened. I just don't see how anyone gains anything (other than the press) from naming and shaming him, in fact it's far more likely to cause even more trouble and potentially with someone else ending up committing a criminal act.

 

 

Because it sets a dangerous precident for anyone who commits a high-profile crime. You'll get special treatment. And if they're not going to name him, what is the point in withholding the charges? He isn't being treated like a normal criminal at the moment.

 

As long as justice is done, i think most people would be happy with that. If convicted he'll have to do time in an adult prison, unless he's found insane or something like that, which i wouldnt rule out.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Hardly a "luxury" more a practical way of maintaining order. But it's easier for the reactionary Paediatrician attacking mass public to understand this case on a purely reactionary and media-informed basis. They aren't intelligent enough to see things any other way.

 

It's a highly emotive subject. You might like to think that you're above people who are reactionary but people sometimes make rash judgements based on emotions. That's just the way we are programmed. Truly intelligent people wouldn't dismiss them as slavering Daily Star readers.

[Towzer]

That's the texts started with supposedly his real name and address, anyone else get it?

Aye ive had it 5 times in the last hour.Its all over face book too.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

sorry HANS, but why would anyone text me (or most members here I suspect) his new identity and address?

 

I know eh. What kind of weirdo would text folk the name of a stranger like it makes any difference? I can only assume it is someone close to home.

[Jamboy81]

That's the texts started with supposedly his real name and address, anyone else get it?

 

 

Nope but i'd appreciate a PM

[Currahee!]

That's the texts started with supposedly his real name and address, anyone else get it?

 

I'd reckon it'll be true. I got the baby P murderers names well before they were released to the media and they were correct. Don't know if the address' were correct but if the names are right then I'd reckon the address' are too.

[Towzer]

The little ***** should be put against a wall and shot.End of.

[Guest King]

The little ***** should be put against a wall and shot.End of.

 

Capital punishment is an extremely good idea IMO

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Nope but i'd appreciate a PM

 

What are you going to do with it when you find out, Figoo?

[H.A.N.S]

sorry HANS, but why would anyone text me (or most members here I suspect) his new identity and address?

 

As on the text it says pass this on to everyone. To raise public awareness of who he is I presume, maybe someone even has a recent picture. Ultimate goal to make sure he's never back in society again.

[Jamboy81]

I'll probably read it tbh.

 

I hope it isn't that guy in Fleetwood. He has vigilante's attacking his house before and folk believed it was him, even when Venables was in custody and he was in his house!!

 

 

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2885283/Innocent-mans-plea-Im-not-Jon-Venables.html

[Tiberius Stinkfinger]

http://www.thesun.co...n-Venables.html

 

That is exactly the reason the evil ****** should be named publicly and dealt with the same as anybody else.

[Patrick Bateman]

It's a highly emotive subject. You might like to think that you're above people who are reactionary but people sometimes make rash judgements based on emotions. That's just the way we are programmed. Truly intelligent people wouldn't dismiss them as slavering Daily Star readers.

 

What are you suggest? That truly intelligent people should actually listen to people as they froth at the mouth and demand that we hang children? As I've said, people with an awareness of history (amongst other things) would know that the mob reaction isn't well considered or remotely the correct thing to do. It's pretty obvious the subject is an emotive one, however, that doesn't mean that decisions and judgements should be made on an emotive basis, and frankly all the stuff about "Children as animals" on here reads like something out of a Mengele casebook. It's sort of understandable, as it's easier for the mass public to brand individuals as animals or monsters rather than accept that they are human beings and that we are all capable of doing horrific things. Understandable, but not remotely right.

[missed98]

Because it sets a dangerous precident for anyone who commits a high-profile crime. You'll get special treatment. And if they're not going to name him, what is the point in withholding the charges? He isn't being treated like a normal criminal at the moment.

 

As long as justice is done, i think most people would be happy with that. If convicted he'll have to do time in an adult prison, unless he's found insane or something like that, which i wouldnt rule out.

 

 

Because he isn't one, he is a child murderer, he was 10, he was tried as an adult, the youngest children in this country to be so treated oh and 2 years younger than has happened in America. This was, imo to appease the public and to make it look like justice was done.

 

They're withholding the charges because it's now become a media frenzy and of massive public interest, the ONLY people who will gain anything from this will be the press.

 

A dangerous precedent for anyone who commits a high-profile crime, i hardly think it's going to inspire people to say, right i'm off to commit an atrocity do a few years and then get a new identity. Whether it's social upbringing or as some on here rather "mediaevally" believe it's because some people are born evil, i would think the new identity bit will be way down their agenda.

 

Oh and we have a justice system very precisely so that the mob doesn't decide what happens, we used to live like that but not anymore.

 

God help us if he is found insane, because if so, our justice system locked up a 10 year old mentally ill boy - to appease the masses.

[Victorian]

i knew having sirgay's name and address would come in useful one day.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

That is exactly the reason the evil ****** should be named publicly and dealt with the same as anybody else.

 

I wouldn't be against that but Jack Straw would have to name and identify the guy. You would get all sorts of radges trying to do people with the same name. Dangerous.

 

This guy who's name is being passed around was also 'outed' 5 years ago and had to provide pictures of himself growing up to the papers to prove he is who he said he is so I'd think twice before passing txts on even if you're desperate to be 'in the know'.

[jambojackbilly]

You dont promote it, but you facilitate it? Nope. Atleast someone who promotes it can hide behind the defence of being a moron; someone who facilitates it is promoting it by the back door.

 

Either you believe this man deserves to die by the hand of a mob or you dont. Please dont promote one mode of practise and then shirk the responsibility of accepting what it will lead to.

Shirk >>> says you

 

This boards about opinions no about know alls who canny stomach an others take or who pedantically nit picks to suit his/her or belief

 

I could in certain cases accept a lynch mob but in this case not OK

 

Everything in life is not black or white or what piddle floats your boat

 

So away facilitate yersel

[Chris Benoit]

i knew having sirgay's name and address would come in useful one day.

 

 

i know i maybe shouldn't have but i laughed

[Tiberius Stinkfinger]

I wouldn't be against that but Jack Straw would have to name and identify the guy. You would get all sorts of radges trying to do people with the same name. Dangerous.

 

This guy who's name is being passed around was also 'outed' 5 years ago and had to provide pictures of himself growing up to the papers to prove he is who he said he is so I'd think twice before passing txts on even if you're desperate to be 'in the know'.

 

Jack Straw should name, shame & dish the whole story and that would clear all the "suspects".

The beast should be made to make his own way, I aint really all that fussed about him.

[2NaFish]

Shirk >>> says you

 

This boards about opinions no about know alls who canny stomach an others take or who pedantically nit picks to suit his/her or belief

 

I could in certain cases accept a lynch mob but in this case not OK

 

Everything in life is not black or white or what piddle floats your boat

 

So away facilitate yersel

 

Nothing to do with opinions whatsoever. Or if it must be, then your opinion leads to murder; you're welcome to it, but it's abhorrent. Your dramatic response shows i've hit a nerve; like i said, if you want to condone lynching and mob justice you might want to take a step back and have a word with yourself.

 

Other than that, if all you're going to do is spout clich?s and insult with actually engaging in a reasonable manner, i'll wish you a good evening.

[bighusref]

Poor argument.

 

Please define the parameters of "a very adult murder".

 

As you are well aware, any case should be judged on it's merits. If we were to hear about a child dying at the hands of another child, the sort of thing I would think of would be they were mucking about and one fell and hurt his head. Or one got a little exuberant in the heat of the moment and went too far with something like a push. When someone abducts a youngster, telling passers by that he is their brother, leads them away to a quiet secluded part where the proceed to murder him slowly shows they actually thought about their crime and it was far from a heat of the moment. The "we were just mucking about" excuse is gone at that stage.

 

The two protagonists were old enough to conceive of the plan and old enough to carry it out. They should be old enough to serve the time for said crime.

[bighusref]

Yes, they were children at the time, but as I said before, there were aspects of their crime which, it could be argued, were of a distinctly adult nature. Apart from the calculated nature of the crime and the level of violence involved, which for many people were among the most shocking aspects of the case given the ages of the perpetrators, there were other factors which you certainly wouldn't expect from your average 10-year-old.

I think people would have been shocked and horrified had the murder been committed by adults - the fact that two 10-year-old were capable of such heinous acts made it all the more appalling.

 

Worded a lot better than my response tbh. I agree completely.

[Sharpie]

I would suspect that the persons anticipating a lynch mob justice should remember the classic public attitude. You know the usual, " somebody should do something about this" and nobody does. I am not at all advocating lynch justice, I am just pointing out how these dire threats are seldom carried out.

 

You know like the if I ever meet Judas Phressley i'll do him, or whoever the Judas of the month is, yet for some reason none of these hard men ever meet the Judas of the month, strange because these Judas characters are not in hiding and shouldn't be hard to find. Like the man says talks cheap.

[Guest juvehearts]

Why? Not being arsey, I just don't know what that information is going to do for her.

 

I'd need to watch last week's Question Time again, but what i remember is Will Self really nailing this argument. Worth a watch.

 

 

yip nail. on. head.

 

basically said, that the transcripts in court were of 2 10 year old children confused as to what they had done.

 

they deserved at the time the support they needed to be able to live a somewhat restricted like, but if what the press have published has been done then the book should be thrown at him.

 

lethal injection would be too good for him imo.

 

juve