Jon Venables identity revealed? (merged threads)

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

There's your get out clause.

 

To make the claim on such a delicate case on a major news station you'd think they would only do so if they were pretty certain, no?

 

It's not as if John Smeaton mentioned it in his column in The Sun!

[Gorgiewave]

Yes I know what you're saying but they actually claimed it during a report on the news on ITV earlier so they must be pretty sure of it.

 

He deserves to get done in even if all he is guilty of is helping old ladies with their shopping and rescuing cats from trees, imo.

Hoofball justice.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Hoofball justice.

 

Well some sort of justice has to be served. 9 years isnt justice. Peter Chapman has just been given a minimum term of 35 years for abduction and murder, that is a bit more appropriate.

[2NaFish]

To make the claim on such a delicate case on a major news station you'd think they would only do so if they were pretty certain, no?

 

Not like the press to make something out of nothing.

 

[Tazio]

A guy I know has moved to a small town down south recently.

 

Mid to late 20's, single, never had a girlfriend or any real friends.

 

A bit of a loner truth be told. He won't talk to the neighbours. Won't go to the pub and won't meet new people.

 

Luckily he gets special benefits so doesn't have to work so he just sits in his house all day watching telly or on the internet.

 

Every fortnight or so he gets a couple of official looking visitors who stay for an hour or so.

 

Matter of time until the rumours start I reckon.

[Sterling Archer]

I'm not fishing as I was very young at the time this happened and genuinely don't know but having quickly seen the cctv footage on the tv, what was his mother doing when he was led away?

 

To those who mentioned that noone approached him for fear of being branded a paedo themselves I would imagine that it was a greatly different world back then and that that fear wouldn't exist in the same way it does today.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

A guy I know has moved to a small town down south recently.

 

Mid to late 20's, single, never had a girlfriend or any real friends.

 

A bit of a loner truth be told. He won't talk to the neighbours. Won't go to the pub and won't meet new people.

 

Luckily he gets special benefits so doesn't have to work so he just sits in his house all day watching telly or on the internet.

 

Every fortnight or so he gets a couple of official looking visitors who stay for an hour or so.

 

Matter of time until the rumours start I reckon.

 

Shaun.Lawson?

 

[blondejamtart]

I'm not fishing as I was very young at the time this happened and genuinely don't know but having quickly seen the cctv footage on the tv, what was his mother doing when he was led away?

 

To those who mentioned that noone approached him for fear of being branded a paedo themselves I would imagine that it was a greatly different world back then and that that fear wouldn't exist in the same way it does today.

 

 

IIRC, Denise Bulger had gone into a shop with James and had let go of his hand to pay for something at the till. In that short space of time, he wandered out of the shop and we all know the rest...

 

As to your second point, again, I believe two separate people did approach the boys when they were walking away with James, but they managed to convince them that he was their younger brother.

[Gorgiewave]

I'm not fishing as I was very young at the time this happened and genuinely don't know but having quickly seen the cctv footage on the tv, what was his mother doing when he was led away?

 

To those who mentioned that noone approached him for fear of being branded a paedo themselves I would imagine that it was a greatly different world back then and that that fear wouldn't exist in the same way it does today.

 

There's a lengthy account here:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/bulger/1.html

[Sterling Archer]

IIRC, Denise Bulger had gone into a shop with James and had let go of his hand to pay for something at the till. In that short space of time, he wandered out of the shop and we all know the rest...

 

As to your second point, again, I believe two separate people did approach the boys when they were walking away with James, but they managed to convince them that he was their younger brother.

 

Thanks

[Sharpie]

Its quite the thread really, some times I wonder about the public,s ability to make proper judgement. Seldom does it seem to be made on pure fact but more on emotion and self interest.

 

A recent thread on this forum related the story of a woman being pushed on to a railway line and suffering injury because she had the sagacity to comment rightly or wrongly to an individual about smoking. She from a number got no or little sympathy from many on here. Because she was an adult?, was she any less even at 42 not someone's child, mother, sister or other close significant person.

 

Then we go to the subject case, I remember some of the details as it was an International story, but probably lost some impetus here as time wore on. The circumstances as I remember are that two children basically abducted another younger child in a mall, they then took him to a quiet area where they subjected him to a shocking experience culminating in his violent death. They were traced, they were probably mainly because of public outrage tried and convicted as adults. The subsequent sentences were served they were released on licence, given new identities, and had I am sure certain restrictions on how and where they lived worked and conducted themselves.

 

I have read a great deal of what has been alleged again st the subject Venables, if anyone, (and it may as a result of the upcoming statement be known) can tell me the actual offence committed I would use that information to make my judgement on appropriate punishment or release with no action taken.

 

With regard to forgiveness, I would suggest that is a total non-starter, unless the victim's mother has found a new source of support and become a born again christian, or is using some other religious crutch. As far as closure is concerned another practically inachievable objective. Of all things this seems to me to be a new thing that came up in one of the highly public U.S trials, possibly even O.J. There is a very steep emotional hill to climb on any death, insurmountable in my opinion as the one suffered by the family of the deceased child.

 

It has also been suggested on here that Venables may be acting out a scenario of seeking help and forgiveness, I find this a bit hard to accept. The mother involved is seeking all the information she can get, new name, offence committed etc. Why would it be relevant to her, unless there have been threats against her or her family the why's are probably not relevant. I c an understand her grief and anger, I can also understand that there must be times when she wonders about the moment of not realising where the boy was, which made him available for the shocking c onclusion.

 

I think the sentiment expressed here many times, especially when affecting someone who has some connection, innocent until proven guilty. In this case if proven guilty then the full presence of the law should be implemented for the protection of the general public. Let the matter be decided on it's own merits.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i

[shaun.lawson]

Shaun.Lawson?

 

 

As soon as I saw Tazio had posted that, I knew that'd be your response! It's like when I spotted the "is Irvine Jambo back with us?" thread in the members' area, and knew I'd be bound to be chief suspect...

 

Incidentally: ITN are reporting what Jon Venables is alleged to have done. He's not even been charged for it yet, let alone tried. By your reckoning, whenever ITN report allegations made about someone, they must automatically be true. Sorry, but they frequently aren't at all: the truth only emerges in court.

[milky_26]

Bob, as usual a well reasoned and exellent post.

 

your first part about the publics ability to make a judgement on the allegations, is highly prejudiced by the media in this country. As we are bombarded with the views that are supposidly deemed right. (i'm not saying that their views are wrong) And that any variation from this view no matter how little would deem you as bad as the perpetrator. It is IMO almost like a mob mentality, where by it is so rare that a reasoned decision is reached by a mob, while if those people were on their own they could determine their own views and opinions themselves.

 

But the main bit i would like to highlight is the last bit where you say that the allegations should be decided on their own merits. If this does not happen then the legal system in this country would have failed spectacularly, and we as a nation would all be culpable (even if like me would prefer not to know details until a trial(assuming there will be one) has been completed) of providing or allowing a trial by media. If this actually happens what would stop this happening again, its like someone mentioned earlier about the Sun's out the paedo campaign and the paedioatrician(sp) was wrongly attacked (well at least his home IIRC). Or even worse a vigilante killing of an innocent person due to a national outrage in the media about a case that has not even been tried.

[Des' Dad]

Bob, as usual a well reasoned and exellent post.

 

your first part about the publics ability to make a judgement on the allegations, is highly prejudiced by the media in this country. As we are bombarded with the views that are supposidly deemed right. (i'm not saying that their views are wrong) And that any variation from this view no matter how little would deem you as bad as the perpetrator. It is IMO almost like a mob mentality, where by it is so rare that a reasoned decision is reached by a mob, while if those people were on their own they could determine their own views and opinions themselves.

 

But the main bit i would like to highlight is the last bit where you say that the allegations should be decided on their own merits. If this does not happen then the legal system in this country would have failed spectacularly, and we as a nation would all be culpable (even if like me would prefer not to know details until a trial(assuming there will be one) has been completed) of providing or allowing a trial by media. If this actually happens what would stop this happening again, its like someone mentioned earlier about the Sun's out the paedo campaign and the paedioatrician(sp) was wrongly attacked (well at least his home IIRC). Or even worse a vigilante killing of an innocent person due to a national outrage in the media about a case that has not even been tried.

[Des' Dad]

My understanding is that these two people were given FULL life sentences for the crime (not murder) they committed and can only be released on licence. So if they break the terms of their licence or commit another crime, however trivial, they can be locked up again without limit.

Let's not lose sight of the fact they were ten years old when the crime was carried out. My view at the time was, and I still believe this, that nobody is born evil and that something or somebody in their life must have influenced them to be this way. I believe the parents really have a lot to answer for.

[Prince Buaben]

no adult came to James' aid as he was being led away.

 

 

During the walk, the boys were seen by 38 people.^[8] Bulger was clearly distressed, but most bystanders did nothing to intervene assuming he was a younger brother.^[3] Two people challenged the older boys, but they claimed that Bulger was a younger brother or that he was lost and they were taking him to the local police station

 

Thats lifted from Wiki.

[shaun.lawson]

Thats lifted from Wiki.

 

Two ten year olds out in the city centre looking after their "younger brother"? You don't find that a bit odd? The sad thing, though, is if people tended to mind their own business then, they probably do so even more now. To use a different yet related example (different in that people had months to intervene, not just a couple of hours): remember the condemnation of social services in the Baby P case? Yet where were the relatives or friends? Why didn't they intervene at any point? You could say the same in the case of Robert Thompson's upbringing too.

[Cisc0 K1d]

Call me crazy but I think justice and decisions on how to deal with criminals is done best in court by judges and jury's rather than in The Sun, The Daily Mail and on day time telly.

[Tazio]

Shaun.Lawson?

 

 

Nope, not Shaun.

 

Actually a bloke we had on placement at my work to see if he could fit into a normal workplace. It turned out he couldn't.

 

But he did receive benefits, and his big pleasure was watching telly and looking at the internet.

 

And in this paranoid culture the tabloids have whipped up he would be viewed as suspicious by people if he moved into a small town, no visible means of support, official looking visitors etc, etc.

 

His only crime was suffering from a pretty full on case of Asbergers Syndrome. But if you didn't know that he would certainly look a bit odd with his behaviour and way of avoiding contact with people.

 

My point is that some people seem to be on constant "paedo watch" and inevitably some innocent people will suffer at their hands. What you see isn't always what you get, especially when you want to see something.

[Old School]

Theres a couple of names of Facebook but nothing serious and no photos. But i'm sure quite a few people in his prison will have recognised him by now. Wont be long until some photos are flying about. Then his new name won't be worth a sook!

Let's hope so he gets what he so richly deserves.

[Prince Buaben]

Dont know much about the licence scheme but if he is convicted of anything and sent back to jail. Is there a chance of release??

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Incidentally, for the kind of searching, cold headed analysis of this case which I think has been woefully lacking in recent days, I would recommend As If, by Blake Morrison.

 

I read that many years ago and must revisit it sometime. Someone I know was heavily involved in helping to secure the boys' release on licence after eight years. He was (and is) adamant that they were badly failed by the criminal justice system in terms of the way the case was handled, the surroundings it was held in etc. I can't say I agree with much of his argument but it's quite striking to speak to someone who supports the two of them so passionately - simply because the vast majority of people in this country despise them, me included.

[BlackJAC?]

Well some sort of justice has to be served. 9 years isnt justice. Peter Chapman has just been given a minimum term of 35 years for abduction and murder, that is a bit more appropriate.

 

By lumping both those cases together you're basically saying children should be tried as adults? Hell, even the gutter press were in agreement that no child should be tried as an adult, regardless of the crime committed.

 

This thread is littered with posts that reinforce the idea that the judicial system's stance on anonymity is there to protect the public from, well, themselves frankly.

[bighusref]

This thread, and the many debates going on all over the country right now, would not exist if the murderers had been imprisoned for life.

 

Sorry, this was a very adult murder and the two that committed this murder should never have been allowed to leave prison.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

By lumping both those cases together you're basically saying children should be tried as adults? Hell, even the gutter press were in agreement that no child should be tried as an adult, regardless of the crime committed.

 

That's what I'm saying, yes.

 

One person abducts and murders a kid - 35 years minimum (he'll die in jail)

 

Two people abduct and murder a kid - 9 years in a detention centre and then a new identity. Where is the punishment in that? It wasn't as if they were playing about and things got out of hand, it was calculated murder and it seems as if they knew exactly what they were doing.

 

That may seem harsh but what happens if it turns out he's killed again?

[Old School]

Sorry, this was a very adult murder and the two that committed this murder should never have been allowed to leave prison.

Indeed. They should be rotting inside till they die.

[jamboron]

I very much doubt he is allowed an account on Facebook to be honest.

 

Surely if the w @nker has a new identity , then he registers that & unless anyone knew his new id then he`d be clear to post . Hopefully someone will reveal his new id & address, then he can get his comeuppance .vermin of the highest order.

[Jamboy81]

Surely if the w @nker has a new identity , then he registers that & unless anyone knew his new id then he`d be clear to post . Hopefully someone will reveal his new id & address, then he can get his comeuppance .vermin of the highest order.

 

If your on life license your life is subject to pretty intense scrutiny. His parole officers / carers will know his new name and location and (were supposed to be) keeping a close eye on him, and his activities, for the rest of his life. Although only someone very dumb would want to register on Facebook while in hiding anyway.

 

It appears hasn't been coping well with losing his identity though. He has, apparantly, been telling everyone who he is. My guess is he wants some kind of recognition for what he did. He's tired of being this famous killer who nobody recognises. He wants to be notorious again; he wants to be feared.

[Acey]

This thread, and the many debates going on all over the country right now, would not exist if the murderers had been imprisoned for life.

 

Sorry, this was a very adult murder and the two that committed this murder should never have been allowed to leave prison.

 

Poor argument.

 

Please define the parameters of "a very adult murder".

[Sterling Archer]

Poor argument.

 

Please define the parameters of "a very adult murder".

 

It was the murder of a child by two other children, if anything it was a very childish murder.

[redm]

This thread, and the many debates going on all over the country right now, would not exist if the murderers had been imprisoned for life.

 

Sorry, this was a very adult murder and the two that committed this murder should never have been allowed to leave prison.

 

I think I understand what you're getting at but the point is that it isn't an adult murder, it was a murder committed by two children and there's no way of getting around that fact. The way in which they did it was perhaps more calculated and violent than you'd expect from 10 year olds, but that's probably the very reason why people were (and are) so shocked by the case.

 

People talk about them as if they were adults at the time, the reaction from the public was definitely more suited to the sort of outrage you'd expect to see directed at adults anyway....but they weren't adults. They were very much children.

[blondejamtart]

I think I understand what you're getting at but the point is that it isn't an adult murder, it was a murder committed by two children and there's no way of getting around that fact. The way in which they did it was perhaps more calculated and violent than you'd expect from 10 year olds, but that's probably the very reason why people were (and are) so shocked by the case.

 

People talk about them as if they were adults at the time, the reaction from the public was definitely more suited to the sort of outrage you'd expect to see directed at adults anyway....but they weren't adults. They were very much children.

 

 

Yes, they were children at the time, but as I said before, there were aspects of their crime which, it could be argued, were of a distinctly adult nature. Apart from the calculated nature of the crime and the level of violence involved, which for many people were among the most shocking aspects of the case given the ages of the perpetrators, there were other factors which you certainly wouldn't expect from your average 10-year-old.

I think people would have been shocked and horrified had the murder been committed by adults - the fact that two 10-year-old were capable of such heinous acts made it all the more appalling.

[redm]

Yes, they were children at the time, but as I said before, there were aspects of their crime which, it could be argued, were of a distinctly adult nature. Apart from the calculated nature of the crime and the level of violence involved, which for many people were among the most shocking aspects of the case given the ages of the perpetrators, there were other factors which you certainly wouldn't expect from your average 10-year-old.

I think people would have been shocked and horrified had the murder been committed by adults - the fact that two 10-year-old were capable of such heinous acts made it all the more appalling.

 

There's no arguing that the circumstances were shocking but it doesn't really make any difference at the end of the day. People will be shocked, yes...but fortunately the existence of public shock factor doesn't mean you'll be tried as an adult when you're 10 years old. They were kids. Pretty frightening kids, but they were kids.

[Boris]

Yes, they were children at the time, but as I said before, there were aspects of their crime which, it could be argued, were of a distinctly adult nature. Apart from the calculated nature of the crime and the level of violence involved, which for many people were among the most shocking aspects of the case given the ages of the perpetrators, there were other factors which you certainly wouldn't expect from your average 10-year-old.

I think people would have been shocked and horrified had the murder been committed by adults - the fact that two 10-year-old were capable of such heinous acts made it all the more appalling.

 

 

Perhaps the fact that they were 10 year olds explains how they managed to do it - they were children and perhaps didn't understand the ramifications of what they were doing? Was it worse because they were kids? I don't think so. Surely if an adult did those things then you would fully expect them to know better, compared to a 10 year old?

 

BTW, not trying to take any blame from them. They did commit a terrible crime.

[blondejamtart]

Redm and Boris, I'm not trying to argue that they shouldn't have been tried as children, but I'd like to think that most 10-year-olds would know right from wrong. Hand on heart, I can say that my son, at 10, would have been under no illusions that it was wrong to do even a fraction of what those two did to poor James. Perhaps it is the calculating nature of the crime which most people find most chilling - not the actual fact that they took James away, but what unfolded after that. The events which followed certainly did not bear the hallmarks of a crime committed in the heat of the moment.

[Boris]

Redm and Boris, I'm not trying to argue that they shouldn't have been tried as children, but I'd like to think that most 10-year-olds would know right from wrong. Hand on heart, I can say that my son, at 10, would have been under no illusions that it was wrong to do even a fraction of what those two did to poor James. Perhaps it is the calculating nature of the crime which most people find most chilling - not the actual fact that they took James away, but what unfolded after that. The events which followed certainly did not bear the hallmarks of a crime committed in the heat of the moment.

 

 

I think the point I'm trying to make is that what was it that made these two ten year olds do what they did? What was going on in their social environment that led them to do this?

 

Again, I'm not trying to take away their individual blame but rather to try to work out how two 10 year olds could do such a thing, or I suppose know how to do such a thing.

[jambojackbilly]

If Venables is tried and convicted, on his eventual release will he be given an other identity ??

 

It seems he was on Charlie, a whole gram a week but i also noticed he had allegedly been loose lipped about his past, anyone who who has taken Charlie knows that sometime times you just cant stop saying things you may prefer to keep quiet participating

 

For what it's worth, i think he has been in trouble before but only had his hands slapped

 

I think he's been accused of a serious crime and while the OB were checking his premises they found vile images on his computer and acted accordingly, obviously I'm only surmising

 

Fact is he got a 2nd chance and all the professional help available prior to his release so he could adapt outside and as an adult it looks like he's blown it big time

 

If convicted throw the key away please

[blondejamtart]

I think the point I'm trying to make is that what was it that made these two ten year olds do what they did? What was going on in their social environment that led them to do this?

 

Again, I'm not trying to take away their individual blame but rather to try to work out how two 10 year olds could do such a thing, or I suppose know how to do such a thing.

 

 

Indeed, and I quite agree with you on that score. Obviously a great deal has been suggested about their upbringing - but how horrendous does your upbringing have to be to lead to something like that? Perhaps, as has been suggested, theirs was in some senses a "fatal" partnership - in that neither would have committed such an atrocity on their own, but together, they were a lethal combination, in the same way as has been suggested about Ian Brady and Myra Hindley.

There are many people out there who had the most awful childhoods, enduring things that most of us could not even contemplate, but who have gone on to lead normal lives as productive members of society, so what did happen to Venables and Thompson to allow them to even contemplate the things they did? We will probably never find out.

[Boris]

If Venables is tried and convicted, on his eventual release will he be given an other identity ??

.......

Fact is he got a 2nd chance and all the professional help available prior to his release so he could adapt outside and as an adult it looks like he's blown it big time

 

If convicted throw the key away please

 

I would be surprised if he was ever released again on licence. I reckon he is now destined to stay in jail for the rest of his natural.

[redm]

Indeed, and I quite agree with you on that score. Obviously a great deal has been suggested about their upbringing - but how horrendous does your upbringing have to be to lead to something like that? Perhaps, as has been suggested, theirs was in some senses a "fatal" partnership - in that neither would have committed such an atrocity on their own, but together, they were a lethal combination, in the same way as has been suggested about Ian Brady and Myra Hindley.

There are many people out there who had the most awful childhoods, enduring things that most of us could not even contemplate, but who have gone on to lead normal lives as productive members of society, so what did happen to Venables and Thompson to allow them to even contemplate the things they did? We will probably never find out.

 

Whatever it was, it was so awful that it made two 10 year old boys capable of committing a brutal and violent murder of a toddler. I don't think an upbringing gets much worse than that.

 

People aren't born 'bad'.

[Gorgiewave]

Perhaps - but on the other hand, given the nature of some of the evidence, it might be argued that there were aspects of the case which were anything but childish.

Children are some of the worst, cruellest people there are. There is bullying in primary schools, including bullying that lasts over several years, weapons used, faces pushed in mud. I was beaten daily by my stepbrother from when I moved in with him, when I was 8 and he 10. I think if children were physically stronger there woulld be more cild murderers in the world.

[japanjambo]

I can understand where people are coming from on this, but none of us know what it feels like to be in her shoes (or those of James' father, for that matter). God forbid that any of us on here should ever find out what it is like to lose a child in such horrendous circumstances - as a mother, I cannot even begin to imagine what they have gone through since James died. I can only imagine that you would want to know all the details about your child's killer - whether that is right or wrong is debatable, but to me, it is wholly understandable.

 

 

This.

[Patrick Bateman]

The amount of people who don't seem to distinguish between an adult and child on this thread is astonishing. Also, the number of people who believe in notions of "Good" and "Evil" too, is quite shocking. There is strong medical(and sociological) evidence which shows links to brain trauma and violent behaviour. It follows that a great deal of our actions and emotions are the result of chemicals sloshing about our heads. Still, it's easier to bring in the quasi-Biblical stuff and talk about witches and monsters, because it's easier for people to deal with and rationalise.

[blondejamtart]

Children are some of the worst, cruellest people there are. There is bullying in primary schools, including bullying that lasts over several years, weapons used, faces pushed in mud. I was beaten daily by my stepbrother from when I moved in with him, when I was 8 and he 10. I think if children were physically stronger there woulld be more cild murderers in the world.

 

 

Oh yes, I agree with you there - but I was thinking particularly of the more sexually disturbing aspects of the case, especially given that some of the evidence was withheld because of its sensitive nature.

[Gorgiewave]

Oh yes, I agree with you there - but I was thinking particularly of the more sexually disturbing aspects of the case, especially given that some of the evidence was withheld because of its sensitive nature.

I remember having a sexual instinct in primary 2 and I'm certainly not the only one. Sexuality beings long before puberty.

[blondejamtart]

I remember having a sexual instinct in primary 2 and I'm certainly not the only one. Sexuality beings long before puberty.

 

 

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, but there's a big difference between that and doing what they did.

[redm]

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, but there's a big difference between that and doing what they did.

 

What did they do?

[Jamboy81]

I think I understand what you're getting at but the point is that it isn't an adult murder, it was a murder committed by two children and there's no way of getting around that fact. The way in which they did it was perhaps more calculated and violent than you'd expect from 10 year olds, but that's probably the very reason why people were (and are) so shocked by the case.

 

People talk about them as if they were adults at the time, the reaction from the public was definitely more suited to the sort of outrage you'd expect to see directed at adults anyway....but they weren't adults. They were very much children.

 

 

Actually if you read the case there didn't seem to be much calculation involved. They paraded him around busy streets and shops for ages before the actual killing took place. Its still not clear at which point they decided to murder him or if they ever decided that they would, or just wanted to hurt him.

 

The method of killing was very much childish. Throwing paint and stones at him and the rest. The Jigsaw Man profiled them and claimed no adult would muder a child this way.

[blondejamtart]

What did they do?

 

 

Transcripts from the original trial stated that James' underpants were soaked in blood and he had certain injuries - as for the rest, I'm sure if you do a search for it you'll find it somewhere, but it doesn't make for pleasant reading. There have always been strong suggestions that agreement was reached between the prosecution and defence that some of the most graphic evidence would not be presented at the trial, mainly to spare the family.

[blondejamtart]

Actually if you read the case there didn't seem to be much calculation involved. They paraded him around busy streets and shops for ages before the actual killing took place. Its still not clear at which point they decided to murder him or if they ever decided that they would, or just wanted to hurt him.

 

The method of killing was very much childish. Throwing paint and stones at him and the rest. The Jigsaw Man profiled them and claimed no adult would muder a child this way.

 

 

Sorry, but from reading transcripts from the case it's pretty clear to me that it was calculated. Yes, some of what they did was fairly childish, but it's clear that it got to a point where it was obvious they were going to kill him. Laying his body across the rail tracks was also a calculated act.