SNP's tax plans destroyed

[Therapist]

Hate to say I told you so, but....

 

This is great news. The SNP's plans were ridiculous and unfair. Well done Mr Brown and Mr Darling.

 

 

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-tax-plan-in-tatters.3834253.jp

[Deek]

Hate to say I told you so, but....

 

This is great news. The SNP's plans were ridiculous and unfair. Well done Mr Brown and Mr Darling.

 

 

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-tax-plan-in-tatters.3834253.jp

 

I was never happy with this policy, but can the SNP/Lib Dems push ahead without the assistance of the British goverment.

 

I am not saying the Scotsman is biased against the SNP, but I would like some reasoned opinion from others to balance out the debate.

[EH11_2NL]

It's the HootsmononSunday. Take with large pillar of salt.

[davemclaren]

An income related tax is fairer than a property tax imo. However, I don't think we should expect the UK government to fund it over and above the normal funding we get out of our own uk-wide taxation. Whether that 'normal' funding is at the correct level is another debate.

[ToadKiller Dog]

The decision by the UK govt to me is playing into the SNPs hands most voters dont look in depth into the details of this kind of decision.Most voters dont like the council tax and all they will see is london cutting money from scotland and the council tax staying ,i think the anger wil be put on labour and london not the SNP .It will give more strength to the snp to argue that new labour govt is not interested in scotland.

[Therapist]

I already pay more than most in Council Tax due to the size of Therapist Towers. Why should I have to pay even more via a local income tax?

 

Mr Smug Salmond made a huge assumption when he thought the government would continue to pay the ?400 million needed to implement his plan. The rug has been pulled from under him, and rightly so.

[kinross jambo]

this will play right into the hands of the snp,most people want the council tax abolished and people will see this as westminster getting in the way.

[Therapist]

An income related tax is fairer than a property tax imo.

 

Under the SNP plans, only employment income would be taxed. What about pensioners or the ultra-rich who live off investment income? Do they not have their bins collected? :hae36:

[Chester™]

Under the SNP plans, only employment income would be taxed. What about pensioners or the ultra-rich who live off investment income? Do they not have their bins collected? :hae36:

 

Surely that should read some pensioners and the ultra rich always get out of paying tax whether its income based or not. Creative accountancy rules the roost as you well know.

 

But is it fair that the man next door to Therapist Towers and earns, for example, three times more than your good self, pays the same amount of tax as your good self for exactly the same house? Are you wholly happy with that?

[Therapist]

But is it fair that the man next door to Therapist Towers and earns, for example, three times more than your good self, pays the same amount of tax as your good self for exactly the same house? Are you wholly happy with that?

 

I am less unhappy with the current situation than I would be under the SNP's punitive, anti-wealth, tax regime.

[Chester™]

I am less unhappy with the current situation than I would be under the SNP's punitive, anti-wealth, tax regime.

 

So are you saying you are unhappy with the system then and that it is unfair on your good self that the man next door to Therapist Towers can earn more and pay the same?

 

As a general question, do you have a suggestion? Im more in favour of an income tax than the current system (for the reasons suggested), but im not happy those who are uber-rich would get away with it. Would a system that takes all monies into account (including income from investments) be a better form of this? Or have you too much tucked away in some Swiss bank?!

[Toxteth O'Grady]

I already pay more than most in Council Tax due to the size of Therapist Towers. Why should I have to pay even more via a local income tax?

 

Mr Smug Salmond made a huge assumption when he thought the government would continue to pay the ?400 million needed to implement his plan. The rug has been pulled from under him, and rightly so.

 

I always wondered how you couldn't afford the bus ticket to Ibrox;)

 

 

Salmond should be forced to resign for failing to deliver one of his key election promises.

[Therapist]

IMHO there is no such thing as a perfect tax system. There will always be those who perceive themselves and others to be winners or losers. On balance I think the present system is pretty reasonable, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. One thing I would change though is inheritance tax.

[Chester™]

IMHO there is no such thing as a perfect tax system. There will always be those who perceive themselves and others to be winners or losers. On balance I think the present system is pretty reasonable, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. One thing I would change though is inheritance tax.

 

Very true. Im going from my own, family and friends standpoints who would all be better off under a local income tax. At the minute my gran pays almost a quarter of her pension income on council tax. It would greatly improve her current situation for a change.

 

How would you change inheritance tax then? So many ideas but never anything solid that impresses on the majority.

[j1874t]

Very true. Im going from my own, family and friends standpoints who would all be better off under a local income tax. At the minute my gran pays almost a quarter of her pension income on council tax. It would greatly improve her current situation for a change.

 

How would you change inheritance tax then? So many ideas but never anything solid that impresses on the majority.

 

"Council Tax Benefit

You may get Council Tax Benefit if you pay Council Tax and your income and capital (savings and investments) are ?16,000 or below.

 

If you have savings of over ?16,000 you can't normally get Council Tax Benefit, unless you're aged 60 or over and getting the 'guarantee credit' of Pension Credit."

 

If your Gran falls into the above category, she should apply for a reduced rate of Cooncil Tax payment.

 

Apply at the local authority office or website perhaps.

[Drew Busby !]

Double post (doh).

[Drew Busby !]

Hate to say I told you so, but....

 

This is great news. The SNP's plans were ridiculous and unfair. Well done Mr Brown and Mr Darling.

 

 

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-tax-plan-in-tatters.3834253.jp

 

Yup, well done Mr. Brown and Mr. Darling aka the Laurel and Hardy of fiscal policy.

 

"Northern Rock deal could cost us each ?3,500"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/02/19/nrock119.xml

 

"Taxpayers' exposure to the beleaguered bank has doubled since the beginning of the year and now stands at about ?110 billion - more than the annual budget of the NHS and the equivalent of 27p on the basic rate of income tax."

 

Great news.

[Therapist]

How would you change inheritance tax then?

 

Scrap it. The lost revenue would be recouped from other taxes when the money was invested or spent by its new owner.

[leginten]

I was never happy with this policy, but can the SNP/Lib Dems push ahead without the assistance of the British goverment.

 

I am not saying the Scotsman is biased against the SNP, but I would like some reasoned opinion from others to balance out the debate.

 

I'll say it then.

The Scotsman is in bed with the New Labour establishment in Scotland. I don't think that is even open to debate any more. Its transparency makes it look more ridiculous with every headline and every day that passes. You get a far more balanced view of political matters (including the one under discussion here) in The Herald.

You also get a newspaper which doesn't look as if it has been pieced together by a bunch of semi-literate sixth-formers. The sad decline of The Scotsman continues apace.

[CompleteIdiot]

IMHO there is no such thing as a perfect tax system. There will always be those who perceive themselves and others to be winners or losers. On balance I think the present system is pretty reasonable, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. One thing I would change though is inheritance tax.

 

The present system is reasonable (read favourable) to the rich. That's why it is broken. Indirect taxation has been rising year on year to pay for rich people's tax breaks in direct taxation.

 

This has further compounded by council tax, a fast rising indirect tax, being skewed towards a heavy burden on the poorest in society.

 

Say a poor family is earning 16k per year. They can be paying 6 odd percent of their gross salary on council tax while you pay say 4% or less living in a house worth seven times as much. How is that fair?

 

In Edinburgh, a poor family struggling with council tax demands while the cost of heating etc. rises faces a double problem. If they have so little they miss a payment, the council immediately sends in private debt collectors that add extra onto the bill making poor families even worse off.

 

It isn't fair and it isn't ethical to keep squeezing the poor so people like you can keep buying flash houses and sports cars. In my view, it is as simple as that.

[Therapist]

Say a poor family is earning 16k per year. They can be paying 6 odd percent of their gross salary on council tax while you pay say 4% or less living in a house worth seven times as much. How is that fair?

 

I didn't say it was. But I already pay a monty of income tax and don't see why I should pay more.

[Deek]

In Edinburgh, a poor family struggling with council tax demands while the cost of heating etc. rises faces a double problem.

 

Meantime British Gas make profits of over ?500 million quid. They should be nationalised again and those huge profits given back to the poor. Then in future charge everybody only for the gas they are using, dont charge them to line fat cats pockets.

[The White Cockade]

Don't feed the Little Englander Troll

[Therapist]

Don't feed the Little Englander Troll

 

No offence, but seeing as we are having a serious conversation, why don't you do one. Thanks for your cooperation.

[Chester™]

"Council Tax Benefit

You may get Council Tax Benefit if you pay Council Tax and your income and capital (savings and investments) are ?16,000 or below.

 

If you have savings of over ?16,000 you can't normally get Council Tax Benefit, unless you're aged 60 or over and getting the 'guarantee credit' of Pension Credit."

 

If your Gran falls into the above category, she should apply for a reduced rate of Cooncil Tax payment.

 

Apply at the local authority office or website perhaps.

 

Been down that road. She gets all she is entitled too and still shells out over the odds. The limits is actually ?11k BTW. I asked for it before I became a student again just around August and was told to bolt. Unless of course its changed since then...

[The White Cockade]

sorry this isn't a serious conversation

its just the latest of your "anti all things Scottish" rants

we've heard it all before

we know where you stand

you wish you were English

thats your perogative

 

Hope that helps

[Deek]

sorry this isn't a serious conversation

its just the latest of your "anti all things Scottish" rants

we've heard it all before

we know where you stand

you wish you were English

thats your perogative

 

Hope that helps

 

I am no fan of Therapist, but at least on this occasion he is posting genuine debate, unlike yourself.

 

Rather than wish he were English, I think he probably see's himself as Scottish and British, as do I.

[Therapist]

he probably see's himself as Scottish and British

 

You're absolutely correct Deek. I have no problem with Scottish nationalists, as it's a valid political alternative.

 

What does get my goat is:

 

1. people who are rabidly anti-English, particularly as I have many English friends who love their visits to Scotland

 

2. the (bulk of the) Tartan Army, whose version of Scottishness does our country no favours at all; ginger wigs, kilts, sambas/timberlands, drunkenness, flashing, and racist anti-English chants.

[Julio]

I am no fan of Therapist, but at least on this occasion he is posting genuine debate, unlike yourself.

 

Rather than wish he were English, I think he probably see's himself as Scottish and British, as do I.

 

Have to chuckle at somebody who stays in the Isle of Man posting about tax in Scotland. For the record Therapist is spot on with whats hes posted.

[A Boy Named Crow]

This is an disgraceful piece of "journalism" from SoS. Essentially what is being proposed is that the Scottish Government restructure the local tax system in Scotland to one based on income. This is something they are entitled to do under the powers devolved to them.

In an attempt to scupper the plan, the Labour government in Westminster is essentially blackmailing the SNP by saying they will cut the funding offered to supliment local taxation by Westminster.

The rights and wrongs of a local income tax are not the issue, the immature, playground bully approach to maintaining the union being employed by Labour is! What do they think they are doing? Do they not realise they are just throwing votes at the SNP??? (Not that I'm complaining mind...)

[Chester™]

You're absolutely correct Deek. I have no problem with Scottish nationalists, as it's a valid political alternative.

 

What does get my goat is:

 

1. people who are rabidly anti-English, particularly as I have many English friends who love their visits to Scotland

 

2. the (bulk of the) Tartan Army, whose version of Scottishness does our country no favours at all; ginger wigs, kilts, sambas/timberlands, drunkenness, flashing, and racist anti-English chants.

 

Thats does my head in as well. Although some of my English mates supported the SNP when they stayed here.

[Chester™]

Do they not realise they are just throwing votes at the SNP???

 

And thats why the SNP wont make a huge deal of it. Just like they didnt go over the score with Wendy and her dodgy accounts. The more Brown looks like the playground bully, the more the SNP and other parties start to gain. The thing is Broon cant see it.

[CompleteIdiot]

I didn't say it was. But I already pay a monty of income tax and don't see why I should pay more.

 

You're not really paying proportionally more income tax than poorer people do at the same level of income. You're also not offering a solution either.

 

Your argument is basically "I'm alright Jack so the the poor can GTF". How is that going to solve inflation busting council tax rises year on year that are swallowing up an ever larger proportion of the income of the poor?

 

Something has to give in the tax system. The status quo is grossly unfair.

 

What is your solution?

[frankblack]

The solution to the problem is not a local income tax but through national income tax.

 

The only people opposed are those with a vested interest or union affiliation.

 

I worked for 9 years in a software house selling computer systems to councils to manage council house waiting lists, rent accounting, etc. Each council has to buy their own system and often changes supplier meaning more cost. There is also a duplication in admin staff (people doing the same job but for only their region) across councils.

 

The solution - one computer system with one centralised admin, and minimise the number of local council offices.

 

A block grant should be given to the councils based on what they actually need rather than what they can get away with spending. This could mean the council stops adding pointless speedbumps that damage our cars, or spends less of our money on tourists, when any return to the council is minimal.

 

We already have the Inland Revenue - why not ditch the council tax and get them to take a higher percentage of our salaries instead. To me that is much fairer, for example than a single person paying council tax when the household next door has say 3 earners.

 

A local income tax is just a fudge because no politician wants to be seen to introduce a bulk cut in council jobs. My point is that this is where the waste is and hard decisions need to be made. Council tax is not a fair tax.

[CompleteIdiot]

Been down that road. She gets all she is entitled too and still shells out over the odds. The limits is actually ?11k BTW. I asked for it before I became a student again just around August and was told to bolt. Unless of course its changed since then...

 

Student loans are counted as income when calculating council tax benefit of students and non-students living together. This is how corrupt this system is: Debt is counted as income!

[Therapist]

Your argument is basically "I'm alright Jack so the the poor can GTF".

 

Yes, I've never denied that.

 

As for councils that put through inflation busting increases, use your vote.

[CompleteIdiot]

Yes, I've never denied that.

 

As for councils that put through inflation busting increases, use your vote.

 

I did. I voted SNP. Their election is why councils have had council tax rises frozen in Scotland. Meanwhile, the champagne Socialists at Westminster have, yet again, overseen inflation busting council tax rises this year in the rest of the UK.

 

You still are not tackling the key issue. Councils do tend to not be efficient. However, the efficiency of councils is not the primary driver of council tax increases. The block grant to councils is not increasing at the same rate as the financial burden of ever increasing council services.

[Therapist]

You still are not tackling the key issue.

 

Check my previous posts. Whilst not perfect, I am broadly happy with the current tax regime. As Kylie Minogue said, better the devil you know...

[Snake Plissken]

The solution to the problem is not a local income tax but through national income tax.

 

The only people opposed are those with a vested interest or union affiliation.

 

I worked for 9 years in a software house selling computer systems to councils to manage council house waiting lists, rent accounting, etc. Each council has to buy their own system and often changes supplier meaning more cost. There is also a duplication in admin staff (people doing the same job but for only their region) across councils.

 

The solution - one computer system with one centralised admin, and minimise the number of local council offices.

 

A block grant should be given to the councils based on what they actually need rather than what they can get away with spending. This could mean the council stops adding pointless speedbumps that damage our cars, or spends less of our money on tourists, when any return to the council is minimal.

 

We already have the Inland Revenue - why not ditch the council tax and get them to take a higher percentage of our salaries instead. To me that is much fairer, for example than a single person paying council tax when the household next door has say 3 earners.

 

A local income tax is just a fudge because no politician wants to be seen to introduce a bulk cut in council jobs. My point is that this is where the waste is and hard decisions need to be made. Council tax is not a fair tax.

 

Best post on this thread.

[A Boy Named Crow]

And thats why the SNP wont make a huge deal of it. Just like they didnt go over the score with Wendy and her dodgy accounts. The more Brown looks like the playground bully, the more the SNP and other parties start to gain. The thing is Broon cant see it.

My first thought when I read the headline and started on the story was that Brown may have succeeded in making the SNP look foolish. In fact it would appear he has made yet another monumental blunder. The politcal capital to be made out of this by the SNP is fantastic. If Wendy tries to badger them about it, they just need to point out that LABOUR put the boot into the whole plan!

This is the same Prime Minister who blew any credibilty he might have had when he allowed his underlings to put about the impression he was going to call an election, then he dithered and ultimately bottled it. He then dithered over the Northen Rock debacle, costing the nation untold amounts. It is also Brown who made sure Wendy didn't resign when she should have in order that there was no snowball effect down to Westminster, leaving SLab with a lame duck leader for the next few years. You really have to wonder who advises this man!!!

[Therapist]

You are missing the point.

 

Salmond made his election pledge on the basis that central Govt were bound to continue with the ?400 million subsidy. Such is his smugness and misplaced self confidence that he didn't even bother to check this out.

 

There's only one person who's looking foolish now, and it's the First Minister. I'm sure the electorate will recognise this.

[A Boy Named Crow]

You are missing the point.

 

Salmond made his election pledge on the basis that central Govt were bound to continue with the ?400 million subsidy. Such is his smugness and misplaced self confidence that he didn't even bother to check this out.

 

There's only one person who's looking foolish now, and it's the First Minister. I'm sure the electorate will recognise this.

 

Any reasonable person would assume that the Westminster government would not alter the flow of finance between the UK and Scotland merely because the means by which the taxation is calculated had been changed. It is ?400m the Scotish people are entitled to. These threats by the Labour govermenment amount to no more than petty, playgtround bully tactics. Nobody likes a bully, especially one that costs you ?400m! THat m'boy is what will be remembered by the electorate, Labour are in no way nterested in the welfare of the Scottish people, only in perpetuating a corrupt union that allows them to have a shot at power in Westminster.

[kinross jambo]

You are missing the point.

 

Salmond made his election pledge on the basis that central Govt were bound to continue with the ?400 million subsidy. Such is his smugness and misplaced self confidence that he didn't even bother to check this out.

 

There's only one person who's looking foolish now, and it's the First Minister. I'm sure the electorate will recognise this.

 

 

weren't you sure the electorate wouldn't vote the snp into government aswell.

 

[mac]

IMHO, the SNP will benefit from this - they can now honestly claim to have been bullied by Her Majesty's Government.

[Coco]

The problem here could be solved by reducing the size of the Council.

 

The huge rise in numbers of inspectors, wardens, red tape measurers, social engineers, (in Edinburgh congestion creation workers) etc should be reversed and the size of the Council reduced every year.

 

Voters for the Council elections could then vote on which party will return the most cash to the electorate each year rather than on how much they will take from the electorate.

[John Findlay]

Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling, rubbish the SNP tax plans.

 

Makes me convinced more than ever that the SNP are onto something then.

 

 

 

John

[Therapist]

weren't you sure the electorate wouldn't vote the snp into government aswell.

 

 

And I was spot on with my prediction. The SNP is - thankfully - a minority government.

[Toggie88]

And I was spot on with my prediction. The SNP is - thankfully - a minority government.

 

You'd have to an idiot to think anyone would come out the last election with a majority.

 

We willnae need a majority in a few years anyway, when the Tories become pro-referendum.

[Therapist]

Ah, it's the Togster.

 

Do you not think it was both foolish and naive for Salmond and his lackeys to make assumptions about the ?400 million subsidy, particularly with the issue being such a sensitive one.

[Gizmo]

Why should Scotland lose a subsisdy they have been calculated to be entitled to, just because the Scottish Parliament - the elected representatives of the Scottish public - decide to spend said money in a different manner?

 

It's nothing more than petty semantics and will backfire spectacularly on an already less than credible Labour government.