Foreign Hearts Managers and the Old Firm

[Skiba]

I was just thinking how since we've had foreign managers at the club how well we have done against the Old Firm.

 

Pre - Burley going back as far as i remember I always expected to get beaten against them.

 

Recently though, I would always fancy our chances, home or away.

 

Do you think there's a case for saying that Foreign Managers at Hearts, due to their lesser knowledge of the Old Firm are less scared at having a go?

[vegas-voss]

I was just thinking how since we've had foreign managers at the club how well we have done against the Old Firm.

 

Pre - Burley going back as far as i remember I always expected to get beaten against them.

 

Recently though, I would always fancy our chances, home or away.

 

Do you think there's a case for saying that Foreign Managers at Hearts, due to their lesser knowledge of the Old Firm are less scared at having a go?

 

Csaba hardly had a go.Set up for a draw every game and sometimes it came off.Not knocking him because it obviously worked against the Old Firm but to say we had a go is stretching the truth.Valdas had a go though.

[heartsfc_fan]

More to do with the Old firm getting worse I think.

 

In 2000 to 2005 it was all the Old Firm and we (and other teams) rarely stood a chance. I recall one or two 4-0 or 5-0 drubbings.

 

Not so now though thankfully.

[Slevinkelevra]

More to do with the Old firm getting worse I think.

 

In 2000 to 2005 it was all the Old Firm and we (and other teams) rarely stood a chance. I recall one or two 4-0 or 5-0 drubbings.

 

Not so now though thankfully.

 

think we might be in for one of them drubbings on weds....

[Shaggy2]

More to do with the Old firm getting worse I think.

 

In 2000 to 2005 it was all the Old Firm and we (and other teams) rarely stood a chance. I recall one or two 4-0 or 5-0 drubbings.

 

Not so now though thankfully.

 

My initial thoughts.

 

I see a 2-1 or 2-0 Celtic on Wednesday, not a drubbing. You can never tell with Hearts, our form againt the non OF has been woeful as some players just coast through these games but in games where you have no choice but to try hard (OF & Hibs) I think we've done ok.

[Buffalo Bill]

We had a good spell against Rangers between 1995 and 1998, winning six times plus a few draws.

 

One of those wins was a Scottish Cup Final.

 

Before that, we beat Celtic six times and drew several between 1991 and 1995.

 

But there have been times in the 2000s when it's been very slim pickings. Some of that is down to the margins in football where a there's very little in it, or we carry a little bit of what some people call 'luck'.

 

One thing I have noticed over the years is that the best way to gain resutls against the Old Firm is to show a bit of belief, a bit of positivity and a bit of ambition.

 

Hopefully Jim will try and enforce that type of thinking.

[shaun.lawson]

We had a good spell against Rangers between 1995 and 1998, winning six times plus a few draws.

One of those wins was a Scottish Cup Final.

 

Before that, we beat Celtic six times and drew several between 1991 and 1995.

 

But there have been times in the 2000s when it's been very slim pickings. Some of that is down to the margins in football where a there's very little in it, or we carry a little bit of what some people call 'luck'.

 

One thing I have noticed over the years is that the best way to gain resutls against the Old Firm is to show a bit of belief, a bit of positivity and a bit of ambition.

 

Hopefully Jim will try and enforce that type of thinking.

 

That was after an absolutely horrific run against them over the previous few years though. In 1995, my school had the bright idea of inviting a reformed drug addict and reborn campaigner against drugs to come and speak to us. In the course of an hour, he managed to slag off both football teams I supported: Norwich, who'd lost 5-0 at Everton (the team he supported) a few weeks earlier; and Hearts, whose record against Rangers until our 4-2 defeat of them that season had, in his view, defied all statistical explanation.

 

The worst run against the OF was between 2000 and 2003. Between a 1-0 defeat of Celtic in April 2000, and the Austin McCann game three years later, we played the OF a total of 25 times in league and Cup, managing just one measly draw (2-2 at home to Rangers, Stephen Simmons getting our equaliser). All that, of course, was because the uglies were over the hills and far away in terms of quality and finance - but since Vlad's arrival, I think I'm right in saying our record at Parkhead is better than Rangers', which is insane! Our continued inability to win at Ibrox does my nut in though: two victories there since April 1988 (one in a dead rubber) defies comprehension.

 

It does come down to attitude - and also to the opponents having an off day of sorts. Had they not signed Keane and Kamara, I think Celtic would be as there for the taking as John Barnes' side was in February 2000; as it is, though, those two signings should give them a lot more quality over time. It's possible to be too defensive (Celtic 4-0 Hearts, August 1999) or too attacking (Celtic 6-1 Hearts, November 2000), when we were naive beyond belief.

 

Closing them down, getting right in amongst them and being semi-committed to the break sounds about right to me; but the curious thing is Laszlo's way of playing is more likely to get success in these games than Jefferies'. The latter, if he develops us as we hope, should vastly improve our performances and results against the rest - but probably not the OF, who hated playing us under Csaba, especially if we scored first. JJ's record against the OF with Killie was eyewateringly awful: I hope he's learned from it, but we'll just have to see.

[Buffalo Bill]

That was after an absolutely horrific run against them over the previous few years though.

 

 

I appreciate that, Shaun but felt it was worth pointing it out anyway.

 

 

JJ's biggest win over the Old Firm away from home (3-0 at Ibrox) was also the best perfomance tactically. We played them 'on the break', but devasted them as we exposed their defence. We should have won 6-0 that day.

 

 

Possibly his best win at home was the 2-1 win at the start of the 'SPL', 98/99. On a warm night, we caught them cold, and they couldn't handle our attacking blitz.

 

 

Both games are manuals in how to tackle them.

[shaun.lawson]

I appreciate that, Shaun but felt it was worth pointing it out anyway.

 

 

JJ's biggest win over the Old Firm away from home (3-0 at Ibrox) was also the best perfomance tactically. We played them 'on the break', but devasted them as we exposed their defence. We should have won 6-0 that day.

 

 

Possibly his best win at home was the 2-1 win at the start of the 'SPL', 98/99. On a warm night, we caught them cold, and they couldn't handle our attacking blitz.

 

 

Both games are manuals in how to tackle them.

 

I agree - but if it was that easy, we'd do it all the time! I think we set up for the 3-0 win like we often do in Glasgow: the crucial thing was we scored first, and had a player with no fear and absolutely on fire. For the 2-1 win, we had no fear because we'd beaten them last time out*; and they were also in a bit of a mess, developing a new team under a new manager (they'd already conceded three goals away to Shelbourne IIRC). I was very confident we'd win that evening, but figured it wouldn't take long for Rangers to come right, as unfortunately they did. Being beaten by us in Advocaat's first league game also seemed to give them an extra motivation whenever we faced them over the next couple of years too.

 

* a lesson being: beat them regularly, and we gain in confidence and get into their heads a bit.

[Buffalo Bill]

I agree - but if it was that easy, we'd do it all the time! I think we set up for the 3-0 win like we often do in Glasgow: the crucial thing was we scored first, and had a player with no fear and absolutely on fire. For the 2-1 win, we had no fear because we'd beaten them last time out*; and they were also in a bit of a mess, developing a new team under a new manager (they'd already conceded three goals away to Shelbourne IIRC). I was very confident we'd win that evening, but figured it wouldn't take long for Rangers to come right, as unfortunately they did. Being beaten by us in Advocaat's first league game also seemed to give them an extra motivation whenever we faced them over the next couple of years too.

 

* a lesson being: beat them regularly, and we gain in confidence and get into their heads a bit.

 

 

Essentially, we don't do it to them all the time because we're a shifting sand, and even the 1997/98 season was quickly followed by a desperate spell (as you know).

 

Likewise, we shouldn't knock our achievements over the Old Firm just bacause they happened to be going through a re-structure. It works boths ways so we should take the good times as they come.

 

I think you almost contradict yourself there with your assessment of the 3-0 win at Ibrox in Jan 1996. Surely we couldn't have been set up to play them 'as normal' if we were absolutely on fire with unbreakable belief? To me, the mental preparation for any match is as important as the physical.