Terrorist attack attempted on Transatlantic flight!

[wibble]

The difference I'm trying to point out, although probably not very well is that his post does not come across as him trying to point out why these people MAY feel the need to carry out these attacks rather than HIM PERSONALLY BELIEVING they have valid reasons (not beliefs but proper, justified reasons) to carry out these attacks.

 

It's hard to differentiate between those two stances.

 

What I believe is that the attacks are wrong, but the justification that they use is right.

 

The Palestinian people have been treated terribly since the creation of Israel. No-one can deny this.

 

Human rights abuses in Palestine have been ignored while the West funds Israel - basically paying the wrong-doer money that he then uses to buy yet more weapons and bulldozers to oppress the Palestinians. No-one can deny this.

 

The invasion of Iraq WAS based on a pile of lies - FACT.

 

These are the very recent examples, but you can jump onto Wikipedia for lists of Western involvement in overthrowing democratically elected governments, assassinations, imposition of puppet governments etc etc. going back for decades - basically since we discovered that oil was quite handy.

 

 

Fanaticism has been born out of being the under-dog for decades in a struggle where they have been massively out-muscled. How else can they get one back on the oppressor? There cannot be a fair fight, so after decades they have started to resort to terrorism. Any underdog will fight a desperate fight.

 

I'd like to think that if my entire life, family, world, everything was under threat that I'd fight to the last - no rules apply when everything is at stake. For these people it is what they believe and you cannot argue with many of the facts that back up their position.

 

As the target of these attacks we have to look at the reasons behind them. At no time have any of those reasons been looked at by our governments and the links to terrorism acknowledged. Our interests, in the eyes of government, in those regions are too great for us to stop meddling.

 

If we, as a people, agree with our governments that oil is too important for us to stop the meddling then we really need to accept that these attacks will continue and - back to my original point - we must rely on our authorities to follow up on every scrap of information that suggests an attack might be coming. This is where the authorities have failed in the lead-up to 911 and with the Nigerian lad. If I had been on that plane I'd be a wee bit cross that they didn't follow up on what the dad told them.

[Heaven98]

He was using an analogy which for most purposes fits the argument. Wandering off on a tangential discussion of entomology probably doesn't help - unless you have a reputable source that can confirm for us that most Muslims are also wasps*.

 

*See what I did there?

 

Tanned genitals discussion? Racist post IMO.

[graygo]

Whose rules of engagement? One of the golden rules of guerrilla warfare is "if the rules of engagement mean you must lose, then change the rules".

 

I'm no expert but I am sure there are universally agreed rules for war, The Geneva convention maybe? Also I think that the term guerrilla is not accurate, they are terrorists who do not engage openly with the enemy rather they hide within the incumbant population.

 

 

I'm not sure what point you're getting at here. Whether these guys are rational or not, we have to be rational in our analysis, so that we don't make bad decisions.

 

Point I was making is that you were making a big issue of the West needing to be rational in our understanding of their grievances but I see no evidence of this being reciprocated. This "war" cannot be ended through dialogue for this very reason.

 

Anyway, getting too difficult to think straight after a box of Strongbow!!

[southside1874]

If it wasn't an Islamic terrorist then it would more than likely be some other terrorist. There are folk out there that are just not happy with their lot and can be manipulated to do what they think will give justice or revenge.

 

Take away the IRA for instance and you won't have as many Scots waving a union flag. Give an outside threat and you see the IRA pale into insignificance.

 

This is about the fact that no economy can suit everyone, no football team can suit all and no religion can satisfy the masses.

 

It wouldn't matter what we had or what we do, its not good for all. You can mask it in religion or colour and creed, but we will never get this right. It wasn't long ago that the Nazis gassed the Jews and the blacks or whites killed each other. Just now there is a common enemy, take it away and we will go back to our internal fighting.

 

You can blame it on religion all you want but its really us humans that sometimes don't get on, like we have done for years.

[redjambo]

If it wasn't an Islamic terrorist then it would more than likely be some other terrorist. There are folk out there that are just not happy with their lot and can be manipulated to do what they think will give justice or revenge.

 

Take away the IRA for instance and you won't have as many Scots waving a union flag. Give an outside threat and you see the IRA pale into insignificance.

 

This is about the fact that no economy can suit everyone, no football team can suit all and no religion can satisfy the masses.

 

It wouldn't matter what we had or what we do, its not good for all. You can mask it in religion or colour and creed, but we will never get this right. It wasn't long ago that the Nazis gassed the Jews and the blacks or whites killed each other. Just now there is a common enemy, take it away and we will go back to our internal fighting.

 

You can blame it on religion all you want but its really us humans that sometimes don't get on, like we have done for years.

 

This is why the best thing for the human race might be to be attacked by aliens. Common enemy and all that... :santa1:

[graygo]

This is why the best thing for the human race might be to be attacked by aliens. Common enemy and all that... :santa1:

 

Anti-Alien post IMO

[southside1874]

This is why the best thing for the human race might be to be attacked by aliens. Common enemy and all that... :santa1:

 

If you were an alien would you get involved with an argument with us lot??

 

We are are bunch of retards that can't even get on with each other:santa4:

[redjambo]

If you were an alien would you get involved with an argument with us lot??

 

We are are bunch of retards that can't even get on with each other:santa4:

 

I've forgotten who it was, but someone once said that the best proof of the existence of alien life out there is that they've refrained from communicating with us. :santa1:

[redjambo]

Anti-Alien post IMO

 

Alien sympathiser!

 

[graygo]

Jebus will save us!

[southside1874]

I've forgotten who it was, but someone once said that the best proof of the existence of alien life out there is that they've refrained from communicating with us. :santa1:

 

Indeed, What part of France are you in RJ? Such a cultured country with goood foood and boooze:santa4:

[redjambo]

Indeed, What part of France are you in RJ? Such a cultured country with goood foood and boooze:santa4:

 

Oui, c'est vrai. :santa1: My status is a bit out of date though as I'm not with our continental cousins at the moment (although I hope to be returning there this coming year). I've mostly lived in the north of the country. I have to say that I like the country and its people a great deal - they seem to have found a nice balance between work and enjoying life. Have you been over there a lot?

[southside1874]

Oui, c'est vrai. :santa1: My status is a bit out of date though as I'm not with our continental cousins at the moment (although I hope to be returning there this coming year). I've mostly lived in the north of the country. I have to say that I like the country and its people a great deal - they seem to have found a nice balance between work and enjoying life. Have you been over there a lot?

 

Go often. been to the north a couple of time but provence is my preference. You never get a bad holiday in France. Its true what you say about the work, balance and they know how to eat and drink. You just find great places at the next turn.

[wibble]

If it wasn't an Islamic terrorist then it would more than likely be some other terrorist. There are folk out there that are just not happy with their lot and can be manipulated to do what they think will give justice or revenge.

 

Take away the IRA for instance and you won't have as many Scots waving a union flag. Give an outside threat and you see the IRA pale into insignificance.

 

This is about the fact that no economy can suit everyone, no football team can suit all and no religion can satisfy the masses.

 

It wouldn't matter what we had or what we do, its not good for all. You can mask it in religion or colour and creed, but we will never get this right. It wasn't long ago that the Nazis gassed the Jews and the blacks or whites killed each other. Just now there is a common enemy, take it away and we will go back to our internal fighting.

 

You can blame it on religion all you want but its really us humans that sometimes don't get on, like we have done for years.

 

 

So true. But maybe if we could turn our heads away from wars for two seconds we could ask some questions about the value we get from our governments?

[southside1874]

So true. But maybe if we could turn our heads away from wars for two seconds we could ask some questions about the value we get from our governments?

 

To turn our heads away from wars...........we would all have to be nice to each other for a while. Its the governments that create the wars and its their economics that bow tow to the folk that hold the strings.

[graygo]

So true. But maybe if we could turn our heads away from wars for two seconds we could ask some questions about the value we get from our governments?

 

The very thing that people in undemocratic dictatorial countries CAN'T do!

[southside1874]

The very thing that people in undemocratic dictatorial countries CAN'T do!

 

 

Even in democratic societies, do you think that the real want of the people is media driven? Do we ever have the ability to make our mind up without influence?

[graygo]

Even in democratic societies, do you think that the real want of the people is media driven? Do we ever have the ability to make our mind up without influence?

 

We have the ability, not sure how easy it would be but we do have it.

[wibble]

The very thing that people in undemocratic dictatorial countries CAN'T do!

 

Certainly people in occupied countries with puppet governments installed by the invaders find it pretty difficult to do these things.

[graygo]

Certainly people in occupied countries with puppet governments installed by the invaders find it pretty difficult to do these things.

 

I take it you would not include North Korea (possibly the biggest threat to world peace) or Iran in that?

[wibble]

I take it you would not include North Korea (possibly the biggest threat to world peace) or Iran in that?

 

Source?

[felix]

I beg to differ.

 

Anyone that is prepared to detonate a bomb on a train or a bus, killing themselves in the process, i would class as fairly radical.

 

In fact a jihad is by default a struggle to defend Isalm in this case by 'military' action against the 'aggressors' by blowing up underground train carriages and a London bus.

 

As for the description of them as 'intelligent respected members of society'? really?

 

The point I was trying to make MT,was that the London bombers (and the Detroit one) didn't fit the stereotyped pattern of radical fanatical islamicists. They were on the whole, well-educated and respected members of their communities and whilst their acts are obviously radical; if their own families didn't recocnise them as religious fanatics until after events, who's to identify and preclude the next attack ?

 

The common fact remains that the London bombers and the Nigerian terrorist all had serious issues with western powers occupying muslim countries. The more we attribute these events to brainwashed fanatics, the more we deceive ourselves that the "war on terror" is not just a badly worded soundbite akin to "axis of evil"; but a strategy that has never worked in it's aim of making the western world safer.

[felix]

Why aren't Protestants, Catholics, Sikhs, Jews or Athiests blowing themselves and innocent people up in this country over the UK's foreign policy ..as I'm pretty sure there are many in the above religions who hate our foreign policy as well.

 

I believe it's because the UK is not blowing up civilians in any occupied Protestant, Catholic, Sikh, Jewish or atheist country.

[graygo]

Source?

 

No source, just my opinion, hence the use of the word "possibly"

[graygo]

No source, just my opinion, hence the use of the word "possibly"

 

ok, here's a couple-

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30964350/

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/north-korea-would-use-nuclear-weapons-in-a-merciless-offensive-1700590.html

 

Fully expect you to point out that this is all lies peddled by the Western media though!

[The Mighty Thor]

 

The point I was trying to make MT,was that the London bombers (and the Detroit one) didn't fit the stereotyped pattern of radical fanatical islamicists. They were on the whole, well-educated and respected members of their communities and whilst their acts are obviously radical; if their own families didn't recocnise them as religious fanatics until after events, who's to identify and preclude the next attack ?

 

The common fact remains that the London bombers and the Nigerian terrorist all had serious issues with western powers occupying muslim countries. The more we attribute these events to brainwashed fanatics, the more we deceive ourselves that the "war on terror" is not just a badly worded soundbite akin to "axis of evil"; but a strategy that has never worked in it's aim of making the western world safer.

 

Felix again i have to disagree.

 

The kind of person from a respected family, is a normal guy etc that is prepared to strap a bomb to his back with the express intent of killing as many 'infidels' as possible is clearly a brainwashed fanatic.

 

Can you stop this type of person? Probably not. In every society there are disaffected people on the fringes, unhappy with their lot and looking to protest against whatever aggrieves them and in some cases violently. They're not all muslims either.

 

The big issue we face in the UK and it was my point away back earlier in the thread is that we in the UK are culpable in allowing our basic rights as UK citizens to be bent and used against us by people who are not disaffected per se but are more looking to enforce their will, their religion, their way of life on the rest of the population. Why do we sit back and allow the Abu Hamzas and his ilk to set up and run mosques spewing out the kind of stuff that you and me would get banged up for saying? Why are we allowing this country to become a breeding ground for radicals who can and as has been proved do progress to terrorists?

 

For far too long now the UK has been the destination of choice for those claiming political asylum, religious persecution etc. Why? Because we are by far and away the softest touch in Western Europe. We have a legislature and judiciary that are hamstrung by rampant liberalism and a kind of political correctness which no other European country would entertain.

[wibble]

ok, here's a couple-

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30964350/

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/north-korea-would-use-nuclear-weapons-in-a-merciless-offensive-1700590.html

 

Fully expect you to point out that this is all lies peddled by the Western media though!

 

Calm down, I just wanted to know what made you say they were such a great threat.

 

I think they'll be blootered off the face of the planet as soon as they look like having a nuke.

 

Probably being talked up so you don't complain when Gordon Brown announces that he has just spent another trillion dollars with a big American company on a missile defence shield (that won't work btw).

[felix]

The kind of person from a respected family, is a normal guy etc that is prepared to strap a bomb to his back with the express intent of killing as many 'infidels' as possible is clearly a brainwashed fanatic..

 

..but that description doesn't really sit easily with Mohammed Sidique Khan, a man once quoted in the Times Literary Suppliment and a respected teacher credited with improving school performance. I could be wrong, but having watched his jihad video some time ago, I don't recall him ever using the term infidel. He was banging on about foreign policy though.

 

Can you stop this type of person? Probably not. ..

that's the kind of viewpoint prevalent in arturo's link - that somehow these jihadists are destined to destroy because they're fanatical. If you're serious about preventing the London, Detroit and probably Madrid bombings....don't invade muslim countries.

[wibble]

The big issue we face in the UK and it was my point away back earlier in the thread is that we in the UK are culpable in allowing our basic rights as UK citizens to be bent and used against us by people who are not disaffected per se but are more looking to enforce their will, their religion, their way of life on the rest of the population. Why do we sit back and allow the Abu Hamzas and his ilk to set up and run mosques spewing out the kind of stuff that you and me would get banged up for saying? Why are we allowing this country to become a breeding ground for radicals who can and as has been proved do progress to terrorists?

 

 

I agree that this is where the root of the problem lies. The London bombers and the Nigerian don't seem wacko enough on their own to have gone about dreaming up these schemes (the 911 guys were also quite westernised from the reports that they were drinking in a strip bar a night or two before the attacks).

You have to assume that they are literally being brainwashed in the classic "religious experience" way. You see the same thing with some born-again Christian groups and various sects. Very much like the Branch Davidian's in Waco, who were brainwashed as a society to a point where they really were on a different planet - same goes for those in the Jonestown massacre. The same techniques are obviously being used and surely that is illegal?

[The Mighty Thor]

..but that description doesn't really sit easily with Mohammed Sidique Khan, a man once quoted in the Times Literary Suppliment and a respected teacher credited with improving school performance. I could be wrong, but having watched his jihad video some time ago, I don't recall him ever using the term infidel. He was banging on about foreign policy though.

 

I think that is a semantic point. Mohammed Sidique Khan may well have banging on about foreign policy but blew up a London Underground train. For an intellectual man that's a fairly unintelligent and indiscriminate way to make a protest isn't it?

 

that's the kind of viewpoint prevalent in arturo's link - that somehow these jihadists are destined to destroy because they're fanatical. If you're serious about preventing the London, Detroit and probably Madrid bombings....don't invade muslim countries.

 

Far too simplistic a view. What about the radical Islamic clerics here in the UK who wish to see Sharia law enforced in the UK. The clerics who cannot stand the way we live our lives here in the UK. The guys who tried to blow up Tiger Tiger in London with a mercedes full of home made explosives because it was full of harlots and sluts and fornicators?

 

I'm sorry but 'foreign policy' is a great catch all and an easy justification for the actions of those who cannot take our values or lifestyle which is quite ironic when a large number of these radicals are living off the state benefits utilising the NHS etc of the country they seek to destroy.

 

What impact was UK/US foreign policy having on a bunch of second generation UK muslims living in Bradford?

 

I think we're getting into the realms here of trying to justify being a terrorist or carrying out indiscriminate acts of terror. There is no justification in my mind. You are trying to understand the mind of someone prepared to strap a bomb to themselves and detonate it amongst those who have input or impact on Foreign policy, that of course assumes that it is actually a protest about foreign policy and not just terrorism for terrorism's sake.

[felix]

You are trying to understand the mind of someone prepared to strap a bomb to themselves and detonate it amongst those who have input or impact on Foreign policy, that of course assumes that it is actually a protest about foreign policy and not just terrorism for terrorism's sake.

 

Now that's a simplistic view.

[Ulysses]

I'm no expert but I am sure there are universally agreed rules for war, The Geneva convention maybe?

 

Not exactly, but the Convention and its protocols, along with the Hague Conventions, provide some legal framework for the conduct of hostilities. However, they aren't "universally agreed". Some countries haven't adopted them, and many countries signed up with reservations (in other words, they signed up to the bits they liked). Perhaps the terrorists are only doing their version of the same thing?

 

Many independence and democracy movements have acted in breach of the Conventions - the ANC, to name but one.

 

 

Also I think that the term guerrilla is not accurate, they are terrorists who do not engage openly with the enemy rather they hide within the incumbant population.

 

They are guerrillas because of the way they engage with the enemy. They are terrorists because we don't like them.

 

 

Point I was making is that you were making a big issue of the West needing to be rational in our understanding of their grievances but I see no evidence of this being reciprocated.

 

Nope, that's not the point I was making. My point is that we need to use reason rather than emotion to analyse and understand what these people are at. Whether we use the results of our analysis to engage in dialogue or blow these people to oblivion is a tactical call - but let's make sure we know what we're doing and why we're doing it before we do it.

 

 

This "war" cannot be ended through dialogue for this very reason.

 

Ok then, let's carry on shooting and looking out for suicide bombers. I'd prefer a more analytical approach, but what the heck would I know?

[wibble]

At least Obama agrees that it's the authorities that are to blame for this one ...

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8434275.stm

 

Must've been reading my posts.

[Rab]

At least Obama agrees that it's the authorities that are to blame for this one ...

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8434275.stm

 

Must've been reading my posts.

 

I hooked him up.

 

No thanks necessary