Tobin found guilty again.

[davemclaren]

Legalise drugs i say prohibition doesny work

 

Will that stop them breaking into houses to fund their habits though?

[kitster]

My first reaction was to hang the barsteward, however after thinking about it Dave I think your spot on with what you say.

 

Much better to keep him alive and give the families of other victims the chance to find out where their loved ones are and if he had anything to do with their disappearance.

 

I just hope the inmates make him suffer big time, in the cruellest fashion possible!

 

But Dave didn't actually say it, he just replied.

[The Doctor]

Fair enough.

 

I think that scenario would be obviously barbaric and morally wrong as well.

 

Our legal system has terrible problems and I think all too often justice is not served because prison is regarded as too easy and jail terms are too short. Drastically cut back on prison budgets so that only the bare essentials for survival are provided and jail terms are as two or 3 times longer than they are at present is what I'd do.

 

For example,

 

Life means life in every case

life for paedophilia without any chance of parole

10 years for burglary or stabbing someone

5 years for carrying a knife without any reason

 

That's what I'd do.

 

Cosa, that's fair enough, but to run the kind of regime you're talking about costs far, far more than is spent on prisons already.

 

TVs and Playstations are cheap, really cheap. Staff are expensive. You say cut back on cost, but it costs more to not have TVs than it does to have them. TVs replace staff, that's a fact. Keep prisoners sweet, they won't cause problems.

 

You can't cut prison budgets and increase jail terms and take away incentives for good behaviour, it's a complete contradiction.

 

Here are some unpalatable truths about prison;

 

Prisons only run with the good will of prisoners.

 

If you don't have the good will of prisoners you have to run a regime which vastly increases the number of staff.

 

People want public money spent on hospitals and schools, not prisons.

 

Politicians (who spend our money) don't run on tickets promoting public spending on prisons.

 

Politicians give less and less to prisons, not more, so regimes rely more and more on prisoners not rioting, staying quiet, not causing trouble.

 

A TV in each cell costs less than a days wages for a prison officer, a couple of playstations in a hall, a week's wages.

 

That helps run the jail for less money.

 

I like your plan for jail, I really do. But who's paying for it?

 

I had lunch with the governor of HMP Edinburgh (Saughton) a couple of years ago. He took great delight in telling me how their new all weather football pitch could be manned by just one officer, such was the CCTV coverage. I remarked that it was sounding more like a private prison everyday. Less staff, less money, less good work being done rehabilitating prisoners, whether by intervention or by making jail unpleasant.

 

Incidentally, would you oversee 30 or so convicted criminals playing football on your own for ?15K a year?

 

Thought not.

 

I've said it before, you get the kind of prisons you're willing to pay for.

[The Old Tolbooth]

But Dave didn't actually say it, he just replied.

 

Eh? I'm lost

[cosanostra]

Cosa, that's fair enough, but to run the kind of regime you're talking about costs far, far more than is spent on prisons already.

 

TVs and Playstations are cheap, really cheap. Staff are expensive. You say cut back on cost, but it costs more to not have TVs than it does to have them. TVs replace staff, that's a fact. Keep prisoners sweet, they won't cause problems.

 

You can't cut prison budgets and increase jail terms and take away incentives for good behaviour, it's a complete contradiction.

 

Here are some unpalatable truths about prison;

 

Prisons only run with the good will of prisoners.

 

If you don't have the good will of prisoners you have to run a regime which vastly increases the number of staff.

 

People want public money spent on hospitals and schools, not prisons.

 

Politicians (who spend our money) don't run on tickets promoting public spending on prisons.

 

Politicians give less and less to prisons, not more, so regimes rely more and more on prisoners not rioting, staying quiet, not causing trouble.

 

A TV in each cell costs less than a days wages for a prison officer, a couple of playstations in a hall, a week's wages.

 

That helps run the jail for less money.

 

I like your plan for jail, I really do. But who's paying for it?

 

I had lunch with the governor of HMP Edinburgh (Saughton) a couple of years ago. He took great delight in telling me how their new all weather football pitch could be manned by just one officer, such was the CCTV coverage. I remarked that it was sounding more like a private prison everyday. Less staff, less money, less good work being done rehabilitating prisoners, whether by intervention or by making jail unpleasant.

 

Incidentally, would you oversee 30 or so convicted criminals playing football on your own for ?15K a year?

 

Thought not.

 

I've said it before, you get the kind of prisons you're willing to pay for.

 

Interesting post. My views are probably non-practical but I'll share them any way.

 

I did however, see an article last year on newsnight (I think) that was discussing this very subject. It contrasted the Russian prison system with our own. They spend less than we do per prisoner and have far longer jail terms for similar crimes. The same went for Turkey. They also had lower re-offending rates if i remember correctly. I'm not sure how great an example Russia or Turkey are for anything really but those were the countries that the article compared us with. Their prisoners get zero basically apart from long jail terms and hard time. When they go to jail they really don't want to go back.

 

There also would be no footballs, gyms etc in my prison. They would have a cell that they would barely leave so rioting wouldn't be much of an issue.

[The Doctor]

Interesting post. My views are probably non-practical but I'll share them any way.

 

I did however, see an article last year on newsnight (I think) that was discussing this very subject. It contrasted the Russian prison system with our own. They spend less than we do per prisoner and have far longer jail terms for similar crimes. The same went for Turkey. They also had lower re-offending rates if i remember correctly. I'm not sure how great an example Russia or Turkey are for anything really but those were the countries that the article compared us with. Their prisoners get zero basically apart from long jail terms and hard time. When they go to jail they really don't want to go back.

 

There also would be no footballs, gyms etc in my prison. They would have a cell that they would barely leave so rioting wouldn't be much of an issue.

 

I'm guessing they didn't sign up to the European Convention of Human Rights which gives prisoners certain rights no one can deny them. Like exercise, visits, hospital treatment, a shower.

 

I've seen prisoners lever cell doors off with a paperback book, I saw a guy get his nose cut off (it was hanging by a flap of skin around the bridge of his nose) because he wouldn't hand over a half ounce of tobacco, I saw a guy get stabbed for a phone card (?2), I've seen the contents of a chamber pot thrown over an officer when he's opened a door and I've seen boiling water and sugar thrown over a prisoner because a beef. As soon as you let prisoners out of their cell (and you have to, by law) you invite trouble.

 

I've seen regimes where you have to open up a cell with three officers in protective clothing (riot gear) and carrying a shield, overseen by a senior officer (supervisor or P.O.) and it's not fun. Staff will do it if they have to, but it's time consuming, it's hard work, it's dangerous and it doesn't get a lot else done, so it achieves very little.

 

I'm also going to hazard a guess that Turkish and Russian screws get paid a pittance, so it's hard to compare.

[cosanostra]

I'm guessing they didn't sign up to the European Convention of Human Rights which gives prisoners certain rights no one can deny them. Like exercise, visits, hospital treatment, a shower.

 

I've seen prisoners lever cell doors off with a paperback book, I saw a guy get his nose cut off (it was hanging by a flap of skin around the bridge of his nose) because he wouldn't hand over a half ounce of tobacco, I saw a guy get stabbed for a phone card (?2), I've seen the contents of a chamber pot thrown over an officer when he's opened a door and I've seen boiling water and sugar thrown over a prisoner because a beef. As soon as you let prisoners out of their cell (and you have to, by law) you invite trouble.

 

I've seen regimes where you have to open up a cell with three officers in protective clothing (riot gear) and carrying a shield, overseen by a senior officer (supervisor or P.O.) and it's not fun. Staff will do it if they have to, but it's time consuming, it's hard work, it's dangerous and it doesn't get a lot else done, so it achieves very little.

 

I'm also going to hazard a guess that Turkish and Russian screws get paid a pittance, so it's hard to compare.

 

To be honest, I've no idea although I'd expect that those 2 countries don't have great human rights records. I'm sure I read about Turkey sanctioning the use of torture in anti-terrorism policing.

 

The wages were all roughly the same as a comparison to their nations average annual salary.

 

As I said, I know feck all about minimum prison standards but the article would have been rather pointless if the researchers had not looked into that sort of thing before choosing which countries to use in their sample.

[The Doctor]

To be honest, I've no idea although I'd expect that those 2 countries don't have great human rights records. I'm sure I read about Turkey sanctioning the use of torture in anti-terrorism policing.

 

The wages were all roughly the same as a comparison to their nations average annual salary.

 

As I said, I know feck all about minimum prison standards but the article would have been rather pointless if the researchers had not looked into that sort of thing before choosing which countries to use in their sample.

 

And we don't? Hmmm, we just shoot innocent Brazillians on tube trains and spy on everyone in the name of anti-terrorism!

 

I never saw the show Cosa, so I suppose I shouldn't comment on the prison regimes of countries I've never even been to. I do know a wee bit about criminal justice and prisons in the UK though. IMO they are too soft and people get out far too soon, BUT, far too many people get sent to prison in the first place, especially girls.

 

As Deek's said, it doesn't work, it's no deterrent, all it does is keep that individual from breaking the law whilst he's inside. (In fact that's not even true because there is loads of drug taking and dealing inside, all of which is illegal and financed by robberies etc. outside)

 

So I'd have far less people in jail, but make jail harder, making it more of a deterrent. It's the ultimate sanction we have as a punishment, the worst we can do to someone. We play our trump card far too easily and quickly and it loses it's power because of it.

 

Community sentencing is cheaper and achieves more. Get them building hospitals, or send them to Africa to build schools and dig wells. That might be a life changing experience that actually makes a difference to someone who needs help.

[wibble]

It costs 100,000 pound a year to keep a man in prison. Don't people think that instead of putting another 10,000 people in jail (which seems to be the drive behind harsher sentencing etc) that the 10,000,000,000 pounds a year could be better spent tackling the root cause of some of the problems?

 

A better education system would be a start, with free educational childcare from the earliest age in the biggest problem areas. New council houses for families that prove they can behave and care for a new house - with the threat of being moved back into the old flats/houses if they cause bother.

 

How about creating some meaningful jobs for people and protecting their rights at work so that they feel like they are contributing to society and that they won't be sacked in the blink of an eye?

 

How about throwing as much sport and fitness at people as they can handle. Cheaper seats at the football for kids who play sport and parents who coach/help out with an amateur club. There's a guy here in Melbourne who helps out troubled teenagers (and has done for 40 years) and he says that he has never had to get involved with ANY kid who has been part of a sports club. Government needs to chuck tons of money at volunteer run sports/fitness clubs.

 

People who volunteer for these things have to be shown to be the heroes in society, celebrities need to be shown to be the bunch of brain-dead tossers that they really are.

 

America has proven that harsh sentencing and terrible jail conditions don't work. Where do they go from here? They have the highest levels of incarceration in the world, their jails offer no luxuries whatsoever and their streets are overflowing with criminals still.

 

There might be problems, but jailing people doesn't seem to be the answer.

 

All the answers require big-thinking and long term solutions - that's why moronic governments won't even try to understand the problems.

[Miller Jambo 60]

What would be the point in executing him?

 

Prevention - doubt the detah penalty would deter Tobin and his like anyway

cost saving - dubious argument when you see how it works in the US

revenge - the masses would lap it up it but what does it really achieve?

 

Im afraid your anti-hanging defence does not work in this case David.

That sod is a waste of space, and money, put down end of.

So the only argument you have is, we cant hang an innocent man.

Well like in all cases of serial murderers he is well documented as being a brutal murderer.

Maybe you could take him for the weekends prior to his release for being a good boy in a few years.

Somehow i think you might decline the offer Dave.

[wibble]

Im afraid your anti-hanging defence does not work in this case David.

That sod is a waste of space, and money, put down end of.

So the only argument you have is, we cant hang an innocent man.

Well like in all cases of serial murderers he is well documented as being a brutal murderer.

Maybe you could take him for the weekends prior to his release for being a good boy in a few years.

Somehow i think you might decline the offer Dave.

 

He won't be getting out Doug, but killing him would cost more than keeping him locked away and out of sight.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I don't think it's very fair to have a debate on the death penalty in a thread like this.

Why?

[The Doctor]

It costs 100,000 pound a year to keep a man in prison.

 

It's less than ?30K, but I agree with much of the rest of your post and all of the sentiment.

[John Findlay]

It costs 100,000 pound a year to keep a man in prison. Don't people think that instead of putting another 10,000 people in jail (which seems to be the drive behind harsher sentencing etc) that the 10,000,000,000 pounds a year could be better spent tackling the root cause of some of the problems?

 

A better education system would be a start, with free educational childcare from the earliest age in the biggest problem areas. New council houses for families that prove they can behave and care for a new house - with the threat of being moved back into the old flats/houses if they cause bother.

 

How about creating some meaningful jobs for people and protecting their rights at work so that they feel like they are contributing to society and that they won't be sacked in the blink of an eye?

 

How about throwing as much sport and fitness at people as they can handle. Cheaper seats at the football for kids who play sport and parents who coach/help out with an amateur club. There's a guy here in Melbourne who helps out troubled teenagers (and has done for 40 years) and he says that he has never had to get involved with ANY kid who has been part of a sports club. Government needs to chuck tons of money at volunteer run sports/fitness clubs.

 

People who volunteer for these things have to be shown to be the heroes in society, celebrities need to be shown to be the bunch of brain-dead tossers that they really are.

 

America has proven that harsh sentencing and terrible jail conditions don't work. Where do they go from here? They have the highest levels of incarceration in the world, their jails offer no luxuries whatsoever and their streets are overflowing with criminals still.

 

There might be problems, but jailing people doesn't seem to be the answer.

 

All the answers require big-thinking and long term solutions - that's why moronic governments won't even try to understand the problems.

 

All the above this country(Uk) have been doing for the past forty years. Guess what it does not work either. Why? Because sadly there are those in society who just do not want to contribute but are more than happy to take take take and the more you give them the more they want without paying anything back. Unfortunately there are plenty who have no respect, dignity or shame for themselves so will not feel the need to have any for others in society. These people as far as I AM concerned take what they believe to be the easy option as in take drugs, steal(from anyone from anywhere) alcohol as they believe doing this is easier than working for a living and contributing to the society they purport to live in. This is the question. What do you do with these people that don't want to be educated. They have had the same opportunities as the rest of us. Just because they cannot be arsed taken them why should I and many others pay more for them to just see it shot up the arm or ****ed into the gutter?

 

Tobin should have been state executed. Quite simply he is evil personified. I firmly believe I did not contribute to making him that way it is a way he chose himself and as a result he suffers the consequences which to me means the death penalty.

 

 

 

John

[wibble]

It's less than ?30K, but I agree with much of the rest of your post and all of the sentiment.

 

I was remembering the 100k from Australian figures of $100k.

 

This article suggest 40,000 pounds.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/28/justice.prisonsandprobation

 

It also says that prison poulation has doubled since 1993 with no benefit to the public. The research suggest that the money can and should be spent on more positive programmes (like drug rehabilitation) to give the public better value for money.

 

The public usually gets what their knee-jerk demands though, so more prisons it will be.

[marshallschunkychicken]

I don't buy the 'death sentence as a deterrent' argument.

 

The whole thing about the psyche of people who commit these crimes is that they have a high degree of arrogance, and a firm belief that they will not be caught. Any suggested punitive action is irrelevant to them.

[jambojackbilly]

'Jails to good for Tobin.. he should be tortured to death'

 

Ian McNicol, victims Dinah's Dad

 

 

I wonder if some see Ian as a Sadist or similar to Tobin for thinking or wishing such retribution

[jazzmaster]

I had the pleasure of seeing Tobin in the immediate aftermath of a good hiding, I won't deny that i was delighted. The assailant was almost as big a s@@@tehouse though. Seeing him scrabbling about on the floor with blood leaking from his face did not bother me in the slightest, in fact it made my day.

 

As an aside, if the death penalty was reintroduced (which will never happen thankfully), I would not lose a wink of sleep if it was my job to pull the lever on the likes of Tobin or Robert Black. Not one wink.

[davemclaren]

I had the pleasure of seeing Tobin in the immediate aftermath of a good hiding, I won't deny that i was delighted. The assailant was almost as big a s@@@tehouse though. Seeing him scrabbling about on the floor with blood leaking from his face did not bother me in the slightest, in fact it made my day.

 

As an aside, if the death penalty was reintroduced (which will never happen thankfully), I would not lose a wink of sleep if it was my job to pull the lever on the likes of Tobin or Robert Black. Not one wink.

 

I doubt any reasonable person has a lot of time to care for what happens to either BUT Tobin would not have been found guilty of this murder, and the victim's family get some closure, if we had rushed to execute him for his first one.

 

Perhaps something to ponder on?

[djf]

I don't buy the 'death sentence as a deterrent' argument.

 

The whole thing about the psyche of people who commit these crimes is that they have a high degree of arrogance, and a firm belief that they will not be caught. Any suggested punitive action is irrelevant to them.

 

There isn't any really any arguement for the death penalty except revenge.

 

Not to say it's an invalid arguement but it's pretty much it.

[Denny Crane]

" i would like to see a monster like that die slowly of hunger and in pain."

 

"He should have bread and water till he keels over and the fact of knowing that would be a pleasure to see"

 

"Can we add amputation, teeth extractions please"

 

All of these statements make you sound like a sadist - just like Tobin. The two of you share a lot of personality traits if you ask me. Taking pleasure from another human's suffering (regardless of their crimes) makes you a sadist.

 

It would be one thing to say that you wished he were dead, but to say that you'd derive pleasure from seeing him suffer makes you a sadist - just like him.

 

Sorry, but that's a fact.

 

What Melbourne said.

[Acey]

'Jails to good for Tobin.. he should be tortured to death'

 

Ian McNicol, victims Dinah's Dad

 

 

I wonder if some see Ian as a Sadist or similar to Tobin for thinking or wishing such retribution

 

No - he's clearly affected by grief and anger, which is totally understandable.

[wibble]

No - he's clearly affected by grief and anger, which is totally understandable.

 

JJB is trying to deflect from himself by using the victims father's grief and desire for retribution.

 

JJB - when your daughter is the victim you don't think straight. That is no excuse for you not thinking straight.

[Sharpie]

Not exactly on topic, but may add to the debate, I just watched CNN where a man was released from prison after 35 years, DNA has proven him not responsible for the crime with which he was charged.