Viable options thread.

[Eckauskas]

With all this talk of protest and upheaval, I'm curious as to see if anyone has any viable and feasible ideas to, hypothetically at least, see the club under new ownership.

 

A fan lead consortium would probably be the one to appease the masses.

 

There was a report in a Sunday paper about a prospective buyer for Rangers who wanted 45,000 fans to donate ?1,000 each, raising ?45m for the club. Even at ?500 each, that's ?22.5m. We could use that money to con some Arabian sucker into buying the club and plough his billions into making us a world superforce.

 

Anyone else got an idea?

[$ilvery_Moon]

If the worst case scenario were to happen there must surely be several wealthy Hearts supporters in Scotland who could contribute and substantially to some fund?

[maroonedinoz]

With all this talk of protest and upheaval, I'm curious as to see if anyone has any viable and feasible ideas to, hypothetically at least, see the club under new ownership.

 

A fan lead consortium would probably be the one to appease the masses.

 

There was a report in a Sunday paper about a prospective buyer for Rangers who wanted 45,000 fans to donate ?1,000 each, raising ?45m for the club. Even at ?500 each, that's ?22.5m. We could use that money to con some Arabian sucker into buying the club and plough his billions into making us a world superforce.

 

Anyone else got an idea?

 

Well, my reading of the situation has been/is that it is inevitbale given our current owner/world financial crisis/debt levles and other factors that at some stage the club will go bust.

 

Nobody would buy it with current levels of debt.

 

We will have to form again from the ashes...whether it is in two, three or rmore years time.

 

If I had any kind of 'semi official' connection with the club or supporters assocaition I think NOW is the time to sound out 'interested parties' with dough, eg Graham Sounness..to see if /when we DO go down the gurgler..that they were committed to financing the NEW Hearts, and any rebirth plan could immedaitely be enacted.

 

I don't; think the SFA etc would be difficult to deal with, and while it may mean a couple of seasons in the lower divisions, if we had contingency plans in place for what I at least consider to be the inevitable, then the pain would be lessened considerably.

 

Maybe I'm wrong about us going belly up, but I don't see any white knights with sadlle bags full of gold willing to throw in 50 million quid to take us over in our currnet state..but think it possible that somneone could step in to pick up the ashes with a couple of million.

 

Personally, I think we are suffering the death of a thousand cuts at the moment, and a quick death/reincarnation may not be such a bad thing in the long run.

[Only a Game]

Well, my reading of the situation has been/is that it is inevitbale given our current owner/world financial crisis/debt levles and other factors that at some stage the club will go bust.

 

 

All the scenarios I have ever dreamt up also start with us going bust and although the final sentence hasnt been confirmed by Vlad almighty as yet, we're certainly on death row and running out of appeals.

 

It'll be a long long road back from the ashes but it will be worth it to get our club back

[maroonedinoz]

It'll be a long long road back from the ashes but it will be worth it to get our club back

 

Hence why I suggest that some 'well kinown Hearts people" start sounding out potential 'white knights' NOW - to hopefully miniminse the time/pain on the road back.

 

As opposed to having the debate/infighting/bickering when it everntually *does* happen, and we all appear a bunch of no hopers.

 

We are powerless under current ownership - let's at least demonstrate that we were smart enough to look ahead, think things through and take what action we could.

[Eckauskas]

We wouldn't be getting our club back, though.

 

We'd be starting a new one from scratch.

[shaun.lawson]

Well, my reading of the situation has been/is that it is inevitbale given our current owner/world financial crisis/debt levles and other factors that at some stage the club will go bust.

 

Nobody would buy it with current levels of debt.

 

We will have to form again from the ashes...whether it is in two, three or rmore years time.

 

If I had any kind of 'semi official' connection with the club or supporters assocaition I think NOW is the time to sound out 'interested parties' with dough, eg Graham Sounness..to see if /when we DO go down the gurgler..that they were committed to financing the NEW Hearts, and any rebirth plan could immedaitely be enacted.

 

I don't; think the SFA etc would be difficult to deal with, and while it may mean a couple of seasons in the lower divisions, if we had contingency plans in place for what I at least consider to be the inevitable, then the pain would be lessened considerably.

 

Maybe I'm wrong about us going belly up, but I don't see any white knights with sadlle bags full of gold willing to throw in 50 million quid to take us over in our currnet state..but think it possible that somneone could step in to pick up the ashes with a couple of million.

 

Personally, I think we are suffering the death of a thousand cuts at the moment, and a quick death/reincarnation may not be such a bad thing in the long run.

 

It's alarming how many Hearts fans I've spoken to who think precisely the above - that it's not a question of if, but when. Part of me doesn't buy it purely because football clubs always seem to escape the worst: look at Southampton during the summer. Another part of me looks at the debt, which is likely to climb still further, the club's chronic unprofitability, global conditions and Romanov's age and apparent lack of interest and is obviously worried.

 

All we can realistically do is support the club as best we can and hope a white knight eventually appears. Otherwise, it may prove that all Romanov represented was a stay of execution.

[Johanes de Silentio]

We wouldn't be getting our club back, though.

 

We'd be starting a new one from scratch.

 

That's probably (only partly) true?

 

The first thing is that Vladimir Romanov has to declare his willingness to sell or whatever - nothing can happen before that, surely?

 

I've always said that, if Vlad decides to pull the plug, we'll struggle for a few seasons, then, before too long, we'll be back to where we were before the **** came in.

 

As long as we have a strong fan base, we'll always be alright!

 

We (and Vladimir Romanov) have missed a MASSIVE chance to change Scottish football, imo.

 

Damn shame!

[maroonedinoz]

It's alarming how many Hearts fans I've spoken to who think precisely the above - that it's not a question of if, but when. Part of me doesn't buy it purely because football clubs always seem to escape the worst: look at Southampton during the summer. Another part of me looks at the debt, which is likely to climb still further, the club's chronic unprofitability, global conditions and Romanov's age and apparent lack of interest and is obviously worried.

 

All we can realistically do is support the club as best we can and hope a white knight eventually appears. Otherwise, it may prove that all Romanov represented was a stay of execution.

 

With the greatest of respect - this is exactly the "do nothing" option that frustrates many.

 

And before anyone rushes to say 'but there is eff all we can do' they are generally speaking correct - with the way things are just now.

 

I guess I am suggesting we plan now for what I see as inevitable - so that we will minimise the hassle, when it does occur.

 

The old..'hope for the best, but plan for the worst' ethos.

 

If in the meantime, either Romanov has a complete change of approach, or someone who is Hearts daft wins the Euro Lottery and buys him out, then I will be absolutely delighted.

 

Unfortunately I don't think the possibility of either of those two events happening is high, so I shall continue to look to future 'solutions' no matter how hard or unpalatable they may be to many.

 

And if as Shaun says above many Hearts fans share my thoughts/concern, then does it not make sense to actually try and do something along the lines I suggest - afer all what have we got to lose by doing so?

[shaun.lawson]

With the greatest of respect - this is exactly the "do nothing" option that frustrates many.

 

And before anyone rushes to say 'but there is eff all we can do' they are generally speaking correct - with the way things are just now.

 

I guess I am suggesting we plan now for what I see as inevitable - so that we will minimise the hassle, when it does occur.

 

The old..'hope for the best, but plan for the worst' ethos.

 

If in the meantime, either Romanov has a complete change of approach, or someone who is Hearts daft wins the Euro Lottery and buys him out, then I will be absolutely delighted.

 

Unfortunately I don't think the possibility of either of those two events happening is high, so I shall continue to look to future 'solutions' no matter how hard or unpalatable they may be to many.

 

And if as Shaun says above many Hearts fans share my thoughts/concern, then does it not make sense to actually try and do something along the lines I suggest - afer all what have we got to lose by doing so?

 

Oh, I totally accept that. If it was possible for fans' groups to unite (more difficult than peace in the Middle East, that one) and actually to start looking for a buyer ourselves, I'd be all for it. It is pretty fanciful though - with the caveat that there's no reason why some of us can't try and establish connections in the Edinburgh and broader Scottish business world, network and so on.

 

I'm honestly not sure what there is to plan in the case of an AFC Hearts though. Surely that's just a bridge we'd cross if we came to it? Meantime, I must re-emphasise an idea others have suggested over the past year or so: shouldn't we have one big democratic, transparent fans group, which wouldn't be political, but would enable us all to have our views properly represented, and be something we could pass down the generations to future supporters? Many other fanbases have such an organisation, but we don't: it's daft, and makes divide and rule and the whole "he doesn't speak for me" thing so much more of a problem.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Viable options -

 

1. Find a buyer - I think Vlad would like this too.

 

Please note that if Vlad needed to sell now, his companies would have to take a haircut on the debt.

 

2. Go with the flow - Assuming a DFE swap occurs in the New Year, our assets will exceed our liabilities again. Cut costs, run a tight ship, promote youth

 

3. Start AFC Hearts

 

That is all.

[Buffalo Bill]

SALE?

 

There is no chance of anyone taking on the club with the debt as it is just now, but if Vlad was to openly declare the club is up for sale (and he hasn't yet), then I think it's fair to say that the debt would have to be negotiated. I'm not sure how feasible that is though. It seems highly unlikely to me.

 

ADMINISTRATION?

 

If the club slid into admnistraton then I would feel confident a buyer would step forward. After all, why pay over the odds now when it could be picked up cheaper? Just because a potential buyer is not known to us now doesn't mean to say one or more wouldn't step forward. As Shaun said, Southhampton are still here. So are Motherwell, Leeds etc. I do not fear administration: even if I should.

 

CLOSURE?

 

A new Hearts of Midlothian FC would need to be formed. I would like to think the SFL would make space for us, and we'd need to build up from scratch, probably playing away from Tynecastle. I would support them, and I'm sure 5-6,000 others would too in the lower leagues. The 2005/06 brigade would be history though.

[Charlie-Brown]

TIME: Hearts trashed their finances over the space of the last 10-15 years so something that took a decade and a half to create isn't going to be able to be put right in only a few years unless somebody has a magic (multi-millions) wand.

 

Realistically we are looking at a decade or more to undo what was done - during this time the club must live within it's means, pay down it's debt and maximise opportunities to reduce the debt .... try to remain at Tynecastle - various options to achieve this.

[Martin_T]

My professional opinion is that if the club remains on it's current course, with debt levels that cannot be traded out of, then it is inevitable that we will go bust at some point. Unless that is, Romanov continues to subsidise the club. The absolutely fundamental issue affecting the club at the current time is the ?17.6 million due in February, we will know a heck of a lot more about what the future holds based on how the club deals with that.

 

For what it's worth, UK football and English football in particular, is heading for a huge bust that will have a major impact on transfer fees and players wages. Already down south we are seeing Portsmouth and West Ham on the brink of administration. Liverpool (the Dubai saviour is now a goner), Hull and several other EPL clubs in utterly unsustainable debt. Watford on the brink of administration, Crystal Palace deferring payments to players. The FA and SFA will have major decisions to take regarding some of their marquee clubs and what happens to their league status when the inevitable happens.

[jamboinglasgow]

TIME: Hearts trashed their finances over the space of the last 10-15 years so something that took a decade and a half to create isn't going to be able to be put right in only a few years unless somebody has a magic (multi-millions) wand.

 

Realistically we are looking at a decade or more to undo what was done - during this time the club must live within it's means, pay down it's debt and maximise opportunities to reduce the debt .... try to remain at Tynecastle - various options to achieve this.

 

I agree, within this decade, we must concentrate on building up youngsters as if we are living within our means then selling a player, even for 1 or 2 million will start to make an important difference in how long it takes. If say over 10 years, we only sell one play a year for ?2m, that is ?20m that could be said to have wiped off our debts, and if we are turning over even a modest ?500k profit then ten years of that is another ?5m. As someone said before, the ?17m loan from UKIO is the one that will be of most interest. Rather optimistically, Vlad would wipe out that loan in the hope that reducing the debt to ?13m would catch the attention of buyers. Realistically I think it will either be extended or changed into equity again. But if Vlad is serious about the way the club is run and giving Hearts the best possible chance then (out of all logic in a business sense) I hope he cancels that loan repayment.

[Nucky Thompson]

We wouldn't be getting our club back, though.

 

We'd be starting a new one from scratch.

And within a couple of years we would be protesting about the new owners.

[CavySlaveJambo]

For what it's worth, UK football and English football in particular, is heading for a huge bust that will have a major impact on transfer fees and players wages. Already down south we are seeing Portsmouth and West Ham on the brink of administration. Liverpool (the Dubai saviour is now a goner), Hull and several other EPL clubs in utterly unsustainable debt.

 

Football as the current professional game is as it stands is following an unsustainable business model.

Wages and transfer fee's have gone completely out of hand in the last 15 yrs.

Isn't there now a proposition around that all football related costs must come from football related income (ie ticket sales etc).

 

And if English football is in trouble then most other countries football teams will be in trouble as it is English Spanish and Italian teams that get all the money.

[shaun.lawson]

The absolutely fundamental issue affecting the club at the current time is the ?17.6 million due in February, we will know a heck of a lot more about what the future holds based on how the club deals with that.

 

 

This is a crucial point. If it's written off, it might suggest VR is preparing us to be sold. If alternatively it's just transferred to another of Romanov's companies, it'd bail us out of an immediate problem, but not mean anything more than that.

[The Mighty Thor]

My professional opinion is that if the club remains on it's current course, with debt levels that cannot be traded out of, then it is inevitable that we will go bust at some point. Unless that is, Romanov continues to subsidise the club. The absolutely fundamental issue affecting the club at the current time is the ?17.6 million due in February, we will know a heck of a lot more about what the future holds based on how the club deals with that.

 

For what it's worth, UK football and English football in particular, is heading for a huge bust that will have a major impact on transfer fees and players wages. Already down south we are seeing Portsmouth and West Ham on the brink of administration. Liverpool (the Dubai saviour is now a goner), Hull and several other EPL clubs in utterly unsustainable debt. Watford on the brink of administration, Crystal Palace deferring payments to players. The FA and SFA will have major decisions to take regarding some of their marquee clubs and what happens to their league status when the inevitable happens.

 

This.

 

Football is heading for a train smash of large proportions. Costs are up and crowds are down and club owners seem bereft of ideas of how to solve either issue.

 

There will be casualties, most likely high profile ones, and I suspect there will be a lot of starting again from a lower league position and within more sensible budgets by a lot of clubs.

 

Anyone that thinks otherwise should read the articles on the agents fees in the last few days. Football is out of control.

[Cut The Crap]

Well, my reading of the situation has been/is that it is inevitbale given our current owner/world financial crisis/debt levles and other factors that at some stage the club will go bust.

 

Nobody would buy it with current levels of debt.

 

We will have to form again from the ashes...whether it is in two, three or rmore years time.

 

If I had any kind of 'semi official' connection with the club or supporters assocaition I think NOW is the time to sound out 'interested parties' with dough, eg Graham Sounness..to see if /when we DO go down the gurgler..that they were committed to financing the NEW Hearts, and any rebirth plan could immedaitely be enacted.

 

I don't; think the SFA etc would be difficult to deal with, and while it may mean a couple of seasons in the lower divisions, if we had contingency plans in place for what I at least consider to be the inevitable, then the pain would be lessened considerably.

 

Maybe I'm wrong about us going belly up, but I don't see any white knights with sadlle bags full of gold willing to throw in 50 million quid to take us over in our currnet state..but think it possible that somneone could step in to pick up the ashes with a couple of million.

 

Personally, I think we are suffering the death of a thousand cuts at the moment, and a quick death/reincarnation may not be such a bad thing in the long run.

 

Tend to agree with this. The club as we know it is done for. The only real option is to start again.

[Paolo]

And within a couple of years we would be protesting about the new owners.

 

Probably, there has been dissatisfaction with Mercer, Robinson and VR, who even at their worse, were better than some of the regimes before them. People will always protest if they do not get their own way, which more often than not is having their cake and eating it.

[BervieJambo]

This.

 

Football is heading for a train smash of large proportions. Costs are up and crowds are down and club owners seem bereft of ideas of how to solve either issue.

 

There will be casualties, most likely high profile ones, and I suspect there will be a lot of starting again from a lower league position and within more sensible budgets by a lot of clubs.

 

Anyone that thinks otherwise should read the articles on the agents fees in the last few days. Football is out of control.

 

Not wanting to sound like a Vlad-apologist, but I think VR understands this and his policies (especially his [non-]signing policy) bear this out. The only way of making money is to develop our own players (youngsters and cheap imports) in the hope that they may come good and bring in a decent transfer fee.

 

I don't fear administration or going bust as our debt is all supported by our parent group and only comes into play when someone else wants to buy us. VR would probably see our best option as to chug along at the moment, but step up to the mark when everyone else hits the skids.

 

Not a popular approach, but unless our shining white knight had infinite amounts of ready dosh and no common sense, then we have to carry on along the same lines. Not going to happen.

 

Anyway are we in any worse position to, say, Aberdeen, at the moment? OK, they have a striker, but their debts are held by a third party who could call then in at any time.

 

So without being negative, our most viable and feasible option for getting the club back to its feet, is giving the players our support, building their confidence, which in turn gives better displays, better results and more money when they are sold on. We can't do anything about our owner (not that, IMO, that really matters), so ditch the petty protests and put the effort into supporting the team.

[Pistol1874]

TIME: Hearts trashed their finances over the space of the last 10-15 years so something that took a decade and a half to create isn't going to be able to be put right in only a few years unless somebody has a magic (multi-millions) wand.

 

Realistically we are looking at a decade or more to undo what was done - during this time the club must live within it's means, pay down it's debt and maximise opportunities to reduce the debt .... try to remain at Tynecastle - various options to achieve this.

Time is interesting.

 

How much time does VR have? He looks fit and well, but it is not inconceivable that something could happen to him. Where are we then?

 

Also I agree that producing players is the way forward, but I can't remember us producing too many million pound players in the time I've followed the club. As alluded to above, it would be just our luck to produce a team of superstars just when the bottom falls out of the market.

 

The positive thing to remember, is that we do not need someone to come into the club and repay the debt on day one.

 

We need someone willing to pay VRs asking price (which would hopefully be nominal) and to guarantee the debt at another bank, much like Tom Farmer did at Hibs, buying Hearts the time to try and trade out of our situation. Again, like Hibs.

 

Assuming the person/people buying Hearts get the land surrounding the stadium as well as the stadium and that this land for security purposes is, say ?15m (rising as the housing market recovers eventually), we are looking for personal guarantors for the shortfall of c?15-20m (potentially reducing as the asset value rises).

 

So four people willing to put ?5m on the line or 10 willing to put ?2m on the line, not one person having ?30-?35m on day one.

[Martin_T]

Time is interesting.

 

How much time does VR have? He looks fit and well, but it is not inconceivable that something could happen to him. Where are we then?

 

Also I agree that producing players is the way forward, but I can't remember us producing too many million pound players in the time I've followed the club. As alluded to above, it would be just our luck to produce a team of superstars just when the bottom falls out of the market.

 

The positive thing to remember, is that we do not need someone to come into the club and repay the debt on day one.

 

We need someone willing to pay VRs asking price (which would hopefully be nominal) and to guarantee the debt at another bank, much like Tom Farmer did at Hibs, buying Hearts the time to try and trade out of our situation. Again, like Hibs.

 

Assuming the person/people buying Hearts get the land surrounding the stadium as well as the stadium and that this land for security purposes is, say ?15m (rising as the housing market recovers eventually), we are looking for personal guarantors for the shortfall of c?15-20m (potentially reducing as the asset value rises).

 

So four people willing to put ?5m on the line or 10 willing to put ?2m on the line, not one person having ?30-?35m on day one.

 

This is a interesting question. I wouldn't imagine the average life span for former Soviet Sub-Mariners extends much into the 70's.

[jambojim52]

Ok people I have the solution and it's realively simple:

 

 

 

Find an oil billionaire and kidnap his only son. Then blackmail him into buying the club and donating it ( with a few million in a bankbook ) too the fans.

 

So simple I can't understand why no-one has come up with it before!

[Charlie-Brown]

This is a interesting question. I wouldn't imagine the average life span for former Soviet Sub-Mariners extends much into the 70's.

 

There probably aren't many of them who are very wealthy individuals though Martin with access to better healthcare & living conditions etc.

 

But it's not really any different to previous major shareholders - whoever inherits their estate and/or controls their companies would decide what to do - in HMFC case it would depend what suited UBIG & UKIO financially i suspect.

[bigwull22]

There probably aren't many of them who are very wealthy individuals though Martin with access to better healthcare & living conditions etc.

 

But it's not really any different to previous major shareholders - whoever inherits their estate and/or controls their companies would decide what to do - in HMFC case it would depend what suited UBIG & UKIO financially i suspect.

 

Due to the fall of Communism

[Hawick Jambo]

Unless it happens before then, I think those who have said that the crucial time may come if something happens to Vlad are correct.

 

Does anyone realistically see Rodders being interested in taking forward one of his Dad's "pet" projects

[Charlie-Brown]

Unless it happens before then, I think those who have said that the crucial time may come if something happens to Vlad are correct.

 

Does anyone realistically see Rodders being interested in taking forward one of his Dad's "pet" projects

 

Whether Romanov junior has much footballing interest in HMFC or not - as far as i can see UBIG & UKIO are in quite deep regards the amount of money they are owed or have ploughed into HMFC .... so time is the only way i can see that they will get any sizeable chunk of that money back is by making the club profitable and/or via a sale/lease-back of the stadium & land at Tynecastle.....liquidating their investment in Hearts would realise a lot less than if the club was made into a viable going-concern, and at this moment in time I don't see what other options they have or indeed we have.

[CraigSN1]

Well, my reading of the situation has been/is that it is inevitbale given our current owner/world financial crisis/debt levles and other factors that at some stage the club will go bust.

 

Nobody would buy it with current levels of debt.

 

We will have to form again from the ashes...whether it is in two, three or rmore years time.

 

If I had any kind of 'semi official' connection with the club or supporters assocaition I think NOW is the time to sound out 'interested parties' with dough, eg Graham Sounness..to see if /when we DO go down the gurgler..that they were committed to financing the NEW Hearts, and any rebirth plan could immedaitely be enacted.

 

I don't; think the SFA etc would be difficult to deal with, and while it may mean a couple of seasons in the lower divisions, if we had contingency plans in place for what I at least consider to be the inevitable, then the pain would be lessened considerably.

 

Maybe I'm wrong about us going belly up, but I don't see any white knights with sadlle bags full of gold willing to throw in 50 million quid to take us over in our currnet state..but think it possible that somneone could step in to pick up the ashes with a couple of million.

 

Personally, I think we are suffering the death of a thousand cuts at the moment, and a quick death/reincarnation may not be such a bad thing in the long run.

 

100% agree, although I must admit when I think about Willie Hamilton I always considser him more of a Hibs player than a Hearts palyer...the goal he scored at Tenecastle for them from the byline in 65(?)still rankles

 

But Jensen, yes fabulous player.

 

 

You can have an opinion when you can spell the name of our home ground, hibs ****.

[Therapist]

Please note that if Vlad needed to sell now, his companies would have to take a haircut on the debt.

 

Not according to the many on here who are financially illiterate.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Not according to the many on here who are financially illiterate.

 

Therapist......

 

I don't think I've ever read a post on JKB where someone has stated otherwise.

[Guest Vanbasten1874]

With all this talk of protest and upheaval, I'm curious as to see if anyone has any viable and feasible ideas to, hypothetically at least, see the club under new ownership.

 

A fan lead consortium would probably be the one to appease the masses.

 

There was a report in a Sunday paper about a prospective buyer for Rangers who wanted 45,000 fans to donate ?1,000 each, raising ?45m for the club. Even at ?500 each, that's ?22.5m. We could use that money to con some Arabian sucker into buying the club and plough his billions into making us a world superforce.

 

Anyone else got an idea?

 

Its always been said that we the long suffering supporters are the club so what if we the 'fans' simply just hijack another club . Livingstone spring to mind we simply get the finances 'yes i know about our track record' together to force a buy out of said club change their tacky colours to a nice maroon and white shade quick name change to something Hearts sounding and bobs your uncle .seemples .

[audrey65]

Viable options -

 

1. Find a buyer - I think Vlad would like this too.

 

Please note that if Vlad needed to sell now, his companies would have to take a haircut on the debt.

 

2. Go with the flow - Assuming a DFE swap occurs in the New Year, our assets will exceed our liabilities again. Cut costs, run a tight ship, promote youth

 

3. Start AFC Hearts

 

That is all.

 

That is just it Geoff, he dosent NEED to sell right now or anytime soon. He will sell when he is fine and ready and not before and any sale of the club, to cancel any "haircut" his company is taking, will probably not include Tynecastle. In fact if Tynecastle still belongs to us after February then Vlad is a far more benevolent man than I thought. But even if the ground remains with the club Vlad can take it at any time. A dark and dismal 2010 beckons.

[Rods]

Hope somebody can help here

 

How did the likes of motherwell and leeds manage to hold onto there stadiums after adminastration ?

[audrey65]

SALE?

 

There is no chance of anyone taking on the club with the debt as it is just now, but if Vlad was to openly declare the club is up for sale (and he hasn't yet), then I think it's fair to say that the debt would have to be negotiated. I'm not sure how feasible that is though. It seems highly unlikely to me.

 

ADMINISTRATION?

 

If the club slid into admnistraton then I would feel confident a buyer would step forward. After all, why pay over the odds now when it could be picked up cheaper? Just because a potential buyer is not known to us now doesn't mean to say one or more wouldn't step forward. As Shaun said, Southhampton are still here. So are Motherwell, Leeds etc. I do not fear administration: even if I should.

 

CLOSURE?

 

A new Hearts of Midlothian FC would need to be formed. I would like to think the SFL would make space for us, and we'd need to build up from scratch, probably playing away from Tynecastle. I would support them, and I'm sure 5-6,000 others would too in the lower leagues. The 2005/06 brigade would be history though.

 

 

Administration unlikely to be an option in our case as it require the agreement of our creditors and that would be a quite bizarre situation.

[Seymour M Hersh]

My professional opinion is that if the club remains on it's current course, with debt levels that cannot be traded out of, then it is inevitable that we will go bust at some point. Unless that is, Romanov continues to subsidise the club. The absolutely fundamental issue affecting the club at the current time is the ?17.6 million due in February, we will know a heck of a lot more about what the future holds based on how the club deals with that.

 

For what it's worth, UK football and English football in particular, is heading for a huge bust that will have a major impact on transfer fees and players wages. Already down south we are seeing Portsmouth and West Ham on the brink of administration. Liverpool (the Dubai saviour is now a goner), Hull and several other EPL clubs in utterly unsustainable debt. Watford on the brink of administration, Crystal Palace deferring payments to players. The FA and SFA will have major decisions to take regarding some of their marquee clubs and what happens to their league status when the inevitable happens.

 

Two questions for you.

 

What is it you do for a living?

 

Why is Liverpool's Dubai saviour a goner. Are Dubai World one and the same as Dubai Investment Co?

[Charlie-Brown]

That is just it Geoff, he dosent NEED to sell right now or anytime soon. He will sell when he is fine and ready and not before and any sale of the club, to cancel any "haircut" his company is taking, will probably not include Tynecastle. In fact if Tynecastle still belongs to us after February then Vlad is a far more benevolent man than I thought. But even if the ground remains with the club Vlad can take it at any time. A dark and dismal 2010 beckons.

 

Surely with 95% ownership UBIG have already taken Tynecastle in any meaningful sense - one option open to them is to exchange stadium/land ownership for debt relief in which case HMFC assets would decrease but so would it's debt however Tynecastle doesn't have much use other than as a football stadium so the football club would probably lease it back - this is what Farmer did at Easter Road for a while - restricted planning permission and a depressed proprty market probably ensures Tynie is safe from property developers for a few years yet fingers crossed.

[scott herbertson]

Surely with 95% ownership UBIG have already taken Tynecastle in any meaningful sense - one option open to them is to exchange stadium/land ownership for debt relief in which case HMFC assets would decrease but so would it's debt however Tynecastle doesn't have much use other than as a football stadium so the football club would probably lease it back - this is what Farmer did at Easter Road for a while - restricted planning permission and a depressed proprty market probably ensures Tynie is safe from property developers for a few years yet fingers crossed.

 

The separation of ownership of the club from ownership of the ground is something to watch carefuly over. If we are offered fan ownership of the club on the basis of renting / short term leasing from UBIG we should start googling "very long barge poles"

[audrey65]

Hope somebody can help here

 

How did the likes of motherwell and leeds manage to hold onto there stadiums after adminastration ?

 

The main creditors came to an "agreement" with the administrators. Had John Boyle at Motherwell insisted on repayment then the ground would have had to be sold. Boyle, personally, took a huge hit. The difference with us is that it was Boyles personal cash whereas our leader has used his companies. Similar thing at Leeds where Bates bought the club from the administrators for ?1 and agreed to meet a percentage of the debts owed in return for ownership of the stadium.

[Martin_T]

Two questions for you.

 

What is it you do for a living?

 

Why is Liverpool's Dubai saviour a goner. Are Dubai World one and the same as Dubai Investment Co?

 

I work in Investment Banking, but have a broad industry knowledge. Admittedly I'm not 100% on the structure of the companies in Dubai. I know Liverpool are in a mountainous and dangerous pile of debt, just like most of the Premiership.

[Martin_T]

The main creditors came to an "agreement" with the administrators. Had John Boyle at Motherwell insisted on repayment then the ground would have had to be sold. Boyle, personally, took a huge hit. The difference with us is that it was Boyles personal cash whereas our leader has used his companies. Similar thing at Leeds where Bates bought the club from the administrators for ?1 and agreed to meet a percentage of the debts owed in return for ownership of the stadium.

 

I may be incorrect, but I don't think Leeds own Elland Road.

[Footballfirst]

The separation of ownership of the club from ownership of the ground is something to watch carefuly over. If we are offered fan ownership of the club on the basis of renting / short term leasing from UBIG we should start googling "very long barge poles"

In the last set of accounts the freehold property was valued at ?15.1M. Vlad could sell this off if he wanted to reduce UBIG's exposure. The only hope that we would have in that scenario is that a Tom Farmer type would buy the ground and lease it back at a nominal rent.

 

It would still leave us with a ?16M overdraft (plus whatever we've lost this year). Interest payments would fall, but the difference would probably be taken up by rent we would be paying back to the leaseholder, e.g. a 5% return on investment on the ?15M would be ?750,000 p.a.

 

In that situation we would need to be trading, at worst, on a break even basis, with a concerted focus on developing youth in order to sell them on at a profit if we are ultimately to clear the debt. However, I'm certain that Vlad will be content as long as we are able to make interest payments on the outstanding debt.

 

In the event that he wanted to sell the club, then it would be more important for him that the debt is reduced significantly, thus restoring some (goodwill) value to a prospective purchaser, as our debt would no longer be secured against the asset of the ground.

 

The biggest difficulty I see is finding someone with a spare ?15M who is content to receive a modest return, unless Vlad creates a holding company for that specific purpose. Either way we can expect many years of having to live within our means, i.e. do what we should always have been doing.

[scott herbertson]

In the last set of accounts the freehold property was valued at ?15.1M. Vlad could sell this off if he wanted to reduce UBIG's exposure. The only hope that we would have in that scenario is that a Tom Farmer type would buy the ground and lease it back at a nominal rent.

 

It would still leave us with a ?16M overdraft (plus whatever we've lost this year). Interest payments would fall, but the difference would probably be taken up by rent we would be paying back to the leaseholder, e.g. a 5% return on investment on the ?15M would be ?750,000 p.a.

 

In that situation we would need to be trading, at worst, on a break even basis, with a concerted focus on developing youth in order to sell them on at a profit if we are ultimately to clear the debt. However, I'm certain that Vlad will be content as long as we are able to make interest payments on the outstanding debt.

 

In the event that he wanted to sell the club, then it would be more important for him that the debt is reduced significantly, thus restoring some (goodwill) value to a prospective purchaser, as our debt would no longer be secured against the asset of the ground.

 

The biggest difficulty I see is finding someone with a spare ?15M who is content to receive a modest return, unless Vlad creates a holding company for that specific purpose. Either way we can expect many years of having to live within our means, i.e. do what we should always have been doing.

 

The value of the ground is if it doesn't have a viablefootball club attached to it

 

If VR wants to make money on Hearts then he has to find a way to make the asset work for him.

 

Best way is to build houses or supermarkets on it - see Wimbledon

[Only a Game]

Therapist......

 

I don't think I've ever read a post on JKB where someone has stated otherwise.

 

There was a poster who recently strongly argued with me that the holding company, if selling, would not write off any of the debt as an incentive to the buyer. Cant remember who it was............Its on the tip of my tongue...............Ah yes.......got it..........It was Therapist.

[audrey65]

I may be incorrect, but I don't think Leeds own Elland Road.

 

Quite correct MT. Elland Road is owned by an offshore company (Directors unknown...) and Bates got the ground on a 25yr lease with a buyback option.

[troonjambo]

I may be incorrect, but I don't think Leeds own Elland Road.

 

indeed was sold and leased back before "the fall"

[Seymour M Hersh]

I work in Investment Banking, but have a broad industry knowledge. Admittedly I'm not 100% on the structure of the companies in Dubai. I know Liverpool are in a mountainous and dangerous pile of debt, just like most of the Premiership.

 

Obviously not one of the IB's taking outrageous risks with other peoples money. No Jambo would do such a thing.

 

Re the Dubai crowd. I asked that as I thought if they were separate then it may not matter to the potential Liverpool investors that Dubai World is having issues as they're own dosh is entirely separate. In any case I'm hearing from people that the Dubai "crisis" is perhaps more a storm in a tea cup.

[Charlie-Brown]

Obviously not one of the IB's taking outrageous risks with other peoples money. No Jambo would do such a thing.

 

Re the Dubai crowd. I asked that as I thought if they were separate then it may not matter to the potential Liverpool investors that Dubai World is having issues as they're own dosh is entirely separate. In any case I'm hearing from people that the Dubai "crisis" is perhaps more a storm in a tea cup.

 

A $50 Billion tea cup SMH for lavish hotels, apartments & office blocks that will lie empty for years becasue there is little demand / credit available for people to pursue such fanatastical property developments.

[Seymour M Hersh]

A $50 Billion tea cup SMH for lavish hotels, apartments & office blocks that will lie empty for years becasue there is little demand / credit available for people to pursue such fanatastical property developments.

 

Well Robert Peston seems to think it is, more or less.