Religion

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Just a bit curious here... We have a bit of a problem with racism and sectarianism in this country (no worse than other countries probably but they are not my home or concern) and it gets me thinking... I am a 100% convinced atheist and as such find the whole thing a terrible waste of time and -horrificaly- sometimes... even life.

 

Hearts are traditionaly believed to be a protestant football club, as are Rangers who -unlike us- actually went as far as being sectarian in their policy regarding their players faith (apparently), as did the first sectarian football club in our country Hibs... Again apparently... Perhaps someone with more historical knowledge will be able to tell me the real story...

 

To me the whole thing is pretty ludicrous... I mean it's a sport right?... a game, football... Nothing at all to do with which version of an ancient fairytale the supporter chooses to believe... Even taken as a business, rather than a sport, I come to the same conclusions... You need to attract more people to your side than the next lot and as such the changing ethnicity of our catchment area is not getting utilised properly and we as a club are suffering in terms of potential income in this regard.

 

We are described as a protestant club and it has almost become an accepted part of our club's heritage now... Are we that though? I know a couple of Catholics that support our team and a sikh bloke too... Changing times, just as we have a more diverse population surrounding our club the accepted views of civilized people have changed a great deal too. I have never read or seen anything in our original history of 130 odd years ago that makes me think of Hearts as a Protestant club, I may be wrong but I always interpret that side of it as a later thing... Something that cropped up in response to the political environment of the times... Not least of all global conflicts and war and relationships with our neighbours over the Irish sea.

 

I know we were started in an environment and time that meant that our population surrounding the club was predominantly Church of Scotland but back then people were more steadfast in their beliefs also... Even some of the loudest critical voices of other faiths and races, around here, do not live a strict protestant lifestyle that would justify their hatred or in most cases just casuall dislike of others who are not of the same belief or skin colour.

 

I put it to the folks on here that we are missing a great opportunity to grow as a club by attacting others to our crest and getting their born and bred bums on seats in Tynecastle on a regular basis... We would always be Hearts, we would always be proud of our great history but just as the world has changed, shouldn't our attitudes also? I mean capitalism demands that only the biggest ultimately survive and I think it would do us good to swell our ranks by not being so openly hostile to others joining our cause and helping us grow.

 

I am Scottish and white and anyone who was attracted to us as a football club from a different background to that would be there because something about our proud history made them want to be a part of our club and the new pages of our history being written (possibly by an illiterate, in Vlad's era) right now... It would never dilute what our club stands for in my opinion because what Hearts stand for is so much bigger than the relatively recent bigot tag that we have been lubered with.

 

Just wondered where other people stand on this topic... I know that a lot of folk would dissagree stongly with what I am saying but I am open to their different opinion and would take their views on board too.

 

Cheers.

[The Doctor]

I am a Christian and a Jambo.

 

I would be honoured to stand alongside Jambos of any race, creed or faith to support my team.

 

Galatians 3:28 (New International Version)

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

The Hearts version could say: There is neither Proddy nor Tim, Sikh nor Muslim, Asian nor Caucasian, for you are all one in Heart of Midlothian Football Club.

[speedbump]

This could get interesting once the anti orange bigots get their holier than thou views out. I might just stand back and read the usual guff being spouted about various organisations, beliefs, cultures and traditions.

 

But they aren't bigotted:qqb017:

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

This could get interesting once the anti orange bigots get their holier than thou views out. I might just stand back and read the usual guff being spouted about various organisations, beliefs, cultures and traditions.

 

But they aren't bigotted:qqb017:

 

 

Hope not... That was not the intention of the post. I just think that like the first reply on here... Most people probably are a lot more tolerant than that. They are probably even in the majority but the majority are not always the loudest in voice.

[londonjambo]

This could get interesting once the anti orange bigots get their holier than thou views out. I might just stand back and read the usual guff being spouted about various organisations, beliefs, cultures and traditions.

 

But they aren't bigotted:qqb017:

 

Alternatively, it could get interesting once our flute-tooting chums re-write history and tell us that Hearts were formed as a Protestant club and have always been a Protestant club.

 

10 I-spy points for the first person to spot the following arguments being touted in no particular order:-

 

(1) We used to play in red, white and blue

 

(2) Why would Hibs have bothered to form a club for Irish Catholics if they could all play for and support Hearts

 

As speedbump says, lets await the usual guff

 

 

GC

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Alternatively, it could get interesting once our flute-tooting chums re-write history and tell us that Hearts were formed as a Protestant club and have always been a Protestant club.

 

10 I-spy points for the first person to spot the following arguments being touted in no particular order:-

 

(1) We used to play in red, white and blue

 

(2) Why would Hibs have bothered to form a club for Irish Catholics if they could all play for and support Hearts

 

As speedbump says, lets await the usual guff

 

 

GC

 

Doesn't have to go that way though, does it? I think there is bound to be far more people out there who have more common sense than that and can keep it objective... they usually just get lost in the mass posting of the drum beaters... Whichever agenda they beat it to.

[londonjambo]

Just a bit curious here... We have a bit of a problem with racism and sectarianism in this country (no worse than other countries probably but they are not my home or concern) and it gets me thinking... I am a 100% convinced atheist and as such find the whole thing a terrible waste of time and -horrificaly- sometimes... even life.

 

Hearts are traditionaly believed to be a protestant football club, as are Rangers who -unlike us- actually went as far as being sectarian in their policy regarding their players faith (apparently), as did the first sectarian football club in our country Hibs... Again apparently... Perhaps someone with more historical knowledge will be able to tell me the real story...

 

To me the whole thing is pretty ludicrous... I mean it's a sport right?... a game, football... Nothing at all to do with which version of an ancient fairytale the supporter chooses to believe... Even taken as a business, rather than a sport, I come to the same conclusions... You need to attract more people to your side than the next lot and as such the changing ethnicity of our catchment area is not getting utilised properly and we as a club are suffering in terms of potential income in this regard.

 

We are described as a protestant club and it has almost become an accepted part of our club's heritage now... Are we that though? I know a couple of Catholics that support our team and a sikh bloke too... Changing times, just as we have a more diverse population surrounding our club the accepted views of civilized people have changed a great deal too. I have never read or seen anything in our original history of 130 odd years ago that makes me think of Hearts as a Protestant club, I may be wrong but I always interpret that side of it as a later thing... Something that cropped up in response to the political environment of the times... Not least of all global conflicts and war and relationships with our neighbours over the Irish sea.

 

I know we were started in an environment and time that meant that our population surrounding the club was predominantly Church of Scotland but back then people were more steadfast in their beliefs also... Even some of the loudest critical voices of other faiths and races, around here, do not live a strict protestant lifestyle that would justify their hatred or in most cases just casuall dislike of others who are not of the same belief or skin colour.

 

I put it to the folks on here that we are missing a great opportunity to grow as a club by attacting others to our crest and getting their born and bred bums on seats in Tynecastle on a regular basis... We would always be Hearts, we would always be proud of our great history but just as the world has changed, shouldn't our attitudes also? I mean capitalism demands that only the biggest ultimately survive and I think it would do us good to swell our ranks by not being so openly hostile to others joining our cause and helping us grow.

I am Scottish and white and anyone who was attracted to us as a football club from a different background to that would be there because something about our proud history made them want to be a part of our club and the new pages of our history being written (possibly by an illiterate, in Vlad's era) right now... It would never dilute what our club stands for in my opinion because what Hearts stand for is so much bigger than the relatively recent bigot tag that we have been lubered with.

 

Just wondered where other people stand on this topic... I know that a lot of folk would dissagree stongly with what I am saying but I am open to their different opinion and would take their views on board too.

 

Cheers.

 

Incidentally, more seriously, I did some very minor rallying round on this topic two or three years ago and, anecdotally at least, it is correct to say that there are Catholics who are put off coming to Hearts games because of some of the songs which are sung.

 

I argued at the time that one way in which Vlad could really make a difference to Hearts would be to eradicate once and for all the sectarian element in our support and thereby attract a significantly wider fanbase.

 

I was told that there is a Committee within the club working on this issue and that, effectively, it was all in hand. I suspect that the Fans Charter was one of the by-products of the committee

 

Oh, that was not before I had been sent threats by e-mail and phone by the way but I'm not that bothered about those.

 

GC

[marshallschunkychicken]

My family are for the most part Hearts supporters, and could be described as non-practising protestant in background.

 

My girlfriend's family are Hearts supporters, and for the most part, non-practising catholics.

 

Religion makes no odds to me at all, and to be honest, it baffles my why it should cause conflict in any area, not just football.

[Miller Jambo 60]

I am a Christian and a Jambo.

 

I would be honoured to stand alongside Jambos of any race, creed or faith to support my team.

 

Galatians 3:28 (New International Version)

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

The Hearts version could say: There is neither Proddy nor Tim, Sikh nor Muslim, Asian nor Caucasian, for you are all one in Heart of Midlothian Football Club.

 

Correct Doc , what i do object to is Celtic fans singing their love of the IRA and their attitude towards our army.

And i do believe in God and attend the Church of Scotland.

If the SFA started with the old firm banning songs , flags etc we would be half way there.

But they aint got the bottle.

[londonjambo]

Doesn't have to go that way though, does it? I think there is bound to be far more people out there who have more common sense than that and can keep it objective... they usually just get lost in the mass posting of the drum beaters... Whichever agenda they beat it to.

 

OK, well, we'll see shall we.

 

I am doing a little bit of research on this for an article for eighteen74 for the future. My understanding is that Edinburgh (and Scotland as a whole) had its share of anti-Irish and anti-Catholic agitators at that time. The "no Popery" campaign was certainly well known and people would have been aware of it. However, the history books also make it clear that it is easy to exaggerate its influence. Most people would simply not have been bothered as long as they could earn a crust.

 

Into that society, we have lads who frequented a particular dance hall. There is no historical evidence whatsoever that the dance hall was a protestant institution or did not allow catholics. It is possible, I suppose, given the nature of the times but there is certainly no evidence for it.

 

Hearts did briefly play in red, white and blue before adopting maroon. However, again, there is no evidence whatsoever that the red white and blue they adopted had anything to with the union flag or any political connotations whatsoever. Indeed, if it did, the club chose pretty quickly - within a year or so of formation - that they would choose maroon.

 

Hibs were a club formed for the Irish population. Of that there is no doubt. However, again, there is no evidence that that club was formed as a result of players being turned away by Hearts - it was simply a natural coming together of people with a common background - something which happens in all walks of life in all parts of the world.

 

Indeed, the one fact of which we can be quite sure demonstrates quite clearly that Hearts were not a sectarian club - when Hibs were refused entry to the Scottish FA on the grounds that they were not a Scottish club but an Irish one, it was Hearts which deliberately broke the rules to play against Hibs and have them admitted to the FA. Why would they have done so if they were anti-Irish - that was precisely the behaviour they were seeking to change.

 

So, there is no evidence that Hearts are a protestant club, whatever that means.

 

GC

[Boris]

Hearts are traditionaly believed to be a protestant football club, as are Rangers who -unlike us- actually went as far as being sectarian in their policy regarding their players faith (apparently), as did the first sectarian football club in our country Hibs... Again apparently... Perhaps someone with more historical knowledge will be able to tell me the real story...

 

We are described as a protestant club and it has almost become an accepted part of our club's heritage now... Are we that though? .

 

I know we were started in an environment and time that meant that our population surrounding the club was predominantly Church of Scotland but back then people were more steadfast in their beliefs also... Even some of the loudest critical voices of other faiths and races, around here, do not live a strict protestant lifestyle that would justify their hatred or in most cases just casuall dislike of others who are not of the same belief or skin colour.

 

I think that Heart of Midlothian were not formed based on religious belief and therefore to have any connotation that Hearts are "a Protestant club" is invalid.

 

We are not Glasgow Rangers, and as far as I am aware never have been.

 

That isn't to deny that in modern times Heart of Midlothian, or rather its supporters, do have an image of being "protestant", or perhaps that should really be "orange". The songs sung (by me at times when an adolescent, I can't claim to not have) during the 70's and 80's were of little to do with football and all about Loyalism - Derry's Walls, The Sash, Oh No Pope of Rome etc etc

 

So whilst this relatively modern phenomenon (you are looking at roughly 30 years out of a 130-odd year history, more or less) is a current barometer it shouldn't be used to try to trace the reason or roots of the club at its inception.

 

Similarly, it would be churlish to deny that people with orange/loyalist or Protestant sympathies were attracted to Hearts because they were a) the Edinburgh side and not Hibernian however, unlike Glasgow Rangers, being of a particular religious denomination has never been a bar to playing for the team nor should it be for supporting the team either.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

I think that Heart of Midlothian were not formed based on religious belief and therefore to have any connotation that Hearts are "a Protestant club" is invalid.

 

We are not Glasgow Rangers, and as far as I am aware never have been.

 

That isn't to deny that in modern times Heart of Midlothian, or rather its supporters, do have an image of being "protestant", or perhaps that should really be "orange". The songs sung (by me at times when an adolescent, I can't claim to not have) during the 70's and 80's were of little to do with football and all about Loyalism - Derry's Walls, The Sash, Oh No Pope of Rome etc etc

 

So whilst this relatively modern phenomenon (you are looking at roughly 30 years out of a 130-odd year history, more or less) is a current barometer it shouldn't be used to try to trace the reason or roots of the club at its inception.

 

Similarly, it would be churlish to deny that people with orange/loyalist or Protestant sympathies were attracted to Hearts because they were a) the Edinburgh side and not Hibernian however, unlike Glasgow Rangers, being of a particular religious denomination has never been a bar to playing for the team nor should it be for supporting the team either.

 

 

I agree... That is why I say "believed" and "labeled"...

 

You just need to look at the diversity of Edinburgh to see the potential for making money from new supporters. The Scottish teams have fallen behind in terms of crowds... A truly non-denominational club would be able to capitalise on those who have no time for the bigotry.

[londonjambo]

I agree... That is why I say "believed" and "labeled"...

 

You just need to look at the diversity of Edinburgh to see the potential for making money from new supporters. The Scottish teams have fallen behind in terms of crowds... A truly non-denominational club would be able to capitalise on those who have no time for the bigotry.

 

Completely agree with you - Vlad has undoubtedly missed a trick here and if anything, we have gone backwards in the last 2 or 3 years

 

It wouldnt be that hard to do either if we really wanted to

 

GC

[Boris]

I agree... That is why I say "believed" and "labeled"...

 

You just need to look at the diversity of Edinburgh to see the potential for making money from new supporters. The Scottish teams have fallen behind in terms of crowds... A truly non-denominational club would be able to capitalise on those who have no time for the bigotry.

 

But Hearts are "truly a non-denominational club", as are basically every club in Scotland.

 

Hearts have bigots in their support as does every other club too. Some have a greater degree than others and in some clubs cases that bigotry is institutionalised.

 

Unfortunately, sectarianism blights Scottish society as a whole and the demographic of a football clubs supporters reflects that.

[scott_jambo]

Applause to the original post, he has made a lot of thought provoking comments that i cant reply to right now as im at work.

 

Could we not rise to Speedbump's bait and instead just quote the OP in your views as it would be a shame for this potentially good thread, which probably took the guy 15 mins to write (unless he's Shaun Lawson ) to turn into a sequel to the fluteband thread which was dire.

 

Yours truly

 

a non trolling poster (for once )

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Completely agree with you - Vlad has undoubtedly missed a trick here and if anything, we have gone backwards in the last 2 or 3 years

 

It wouldnt be that hard to do either if we really wanted to

 

GC

 

 

Damn! I await threatening emails!!

 

Seriously though, do you think the capitalist British Empire gave a to55 where their taxes came from? Did they turn away the money from the faces and faiths that did not match their own? Did they diddly! And that was the biggest empire the world has ever seen. Get these guys tapped, I say!

 

Perhaps the 'British Empire' analagy will make it more paletable to some?... You have my permission to use it!!

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Applause to the original post, he has made a lot of thought provoking comments that i cant reply to right now as im at work.

 

Could we not rise to Speedbump's bait and instead just quote the OP in your views as it would be a shame for this potentially good thread, which probably took the guy 15 mins to write (unless he's Shaun Lawson ) to turn into a sequel to the fluteband thread which was dire.

 

Yours truly

 

a non trolling poster (for once )

 

 

Would be nice... Cheers bud!

[londonjambo]

Damn! I await threatening emails!!

 

Seriously though, do you think the capitalist British Empire gave a to55 where their taxes came from? Did they turn away the money from the faces and faiths that did not match their own? Did they diddly! And that was the biggest empire the world has ever seen. Get these guys tapped, I say!

 

Perhaps the 'British Empire' analagy will make it more paletable to some?... You have my permission to use it!!

 

Trouble is that it isnt worth it econimically at present for Vlad and thats all that matters at present.

 

At the moment, we might get 100 or so bigots who pay their ticket money and buy their replica tops like everyone else. Are we gonna spend money hounding them and their money out of the club in the hope that we might attract 1000 folk who wouldnt have come before because they didnt feel welcome. Risky strategy and you'd have to be pretty sure of your numbers and also have the room to accommodate the extra numbers you are expecting.

 

In the present climate it isnt going to happen much as most of us would like it to

 

GC

[Boris]

Is there actual evidence that people are not going to watch Hearts due to the perception that Heart of Midlothian Football Club is a Protestant institution?

 

If so, then in what numbers?

 

If vast swathes, then the club has an "image problem" that it needs to deal with.

 

I'm not so sure there are vast swathes though.

[Sterling Archer]

Is there actual evidence that people are not going to watch Hearts due to the perception that Heart of Midlothian Football Club is a Protestant institution?

 

If so, then in what numbers?

 

If vast swathes, then the club has an "image problem" that it needs to deal with.

 

I'm not so sure there are vast swathes though.

 

I think there's a far more obvious reason why people don't want to watch hearts...

[londonjambo]

Is there actual evidence that people are not going to watch Hearts due to the perception that Heart of Midlothian Football Club is a Protestant institution?

 

If so, then in what numbers?

 

If vast swathes, then the club has an "image problem" that it needs to deal with.

 

I'm not so sure there are vast swathes though.

 

Not because of the perception but rather because they are genuinely offended or at the very least put off by some of the songs.

 

As mentioned above, I stupidly put my head above the parapet about 3 or 4 years ago on this issue and got several PM's on the old Kickback forum from members citing specific friends/relatives who would not come to games or, sometimes, travel to away games because felt that they were made to feel unwelcome

 

Anecdotal as mentioned above and, I would imagine, difficult to actually survey with any greater accuracy but I suspect there's a few out there

 

GC

[Craigieboy]

People born & actively raised in a religion have difficulty breaking free from it.

 

.

[Commander Harris]

People born & actively raised in a religion have difficulty breaking free from it.

 

.

People born and actively raised with an atheistic world-view have difficulty breaking free from it.

[bigwull22]

I find religion hilarious and should be mocked at every opportunity and those that react angrily even more so (particularly on this board). Atheism rocks.

[Johanes de Silentio]

This could get interesting once the anti orange bigots get their holier than thou views out. I might just stand back and read the usual guff being spouted about various organisations, beliefs, cultures and traditions.

 

But they aren't bigotted:qqb017:

 

Anti-orange biggots - funny post!

[Johanes de Silentio]

I find religion hilarious and should be mocked at every opportunity and those that react angrily even more so (particularly on this board). Atheism rocks.

 

Indeed - did religious leaders tolerate Marsulius or Galileo Galilei back in the day? Did they ****!

 

But, hey - if they want to believe all the pish in a book that was written BY MEN yonks ago, that's fine by me.

 

To them, God is a big beardy guy in the sky - to me, it's an imaginary friend.

 

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

[speedbump]

Anti-orange biggots - funny post!

 

A bigot (in modern usage) is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own or intolerant of people of different ethnicity, race, or class.

[BlackJAC?]

Something i've always wondered is why some self proclaimed atheists are so dead set against believers shoving their beliefs down the throat of others, yet think nothing of shoving their atheist views down the throats of others?

 

Both as bad as the other when it comes to making a fool of themselves.

 

Btw, I haven't got a religious bone in my body, so i have no agenda either way.

[jamboinglasgow]

I am a Christian and a Jambo.

 

I would be honoured to stand alongside Jambos of any race, creed or faith to support my team.

 

Galatians 3:28 (New International Version)

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

The Hearts version could say: There is neither Proddy nor Tim, Sikh nor Muslim, Asian nor Caucasian, for you are all one in Heart of Midlothian Football Club.

 

I am with you, I am protestant but I dont hate catholics. That is a terrible view that sadly exists in this country. A good friend of mine is a catholic Hearts fan, some idiots act like he shouldn't be a Hearts fan through the songs they sing. I dont care if a hearts fan is protestant, catholic, Jew, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist, agnostic or atheist. What matters is that they support Hearts.

 

I dont go to football for religion, I go to church on a Sunday to do that (yes there are times during the match when I am praying to God asking why cant he just let us score and win but that is as near as religion gets in my football.)

 

Its the same with race, it doesn't matter what race you are when you are a Hearts supporter as in the end we all bleed maroon. Celtic are quite successful as portraying themselves as a club for minorities (which I find a bit of a joke really) but I think Hearts should be doing the same. We should be seen as a club that welcomes everyone and I think we will reap huge benefits from it as well.

[Big G]

I think any organization needs to be culturally diverse to do well in the modern world. I think Hearts are a vibrant and diverse club. I have no doubt that the scourge of bigotry was there in times past, but I like to think that the fans have moved on from that.

Funny story- My best friend attended Tynecastle high school and I attended S.T. Augustine school. He grew up supporting Hibs and I grew up supporting Hearts

[Beverley]

Correct Doc , what i do object to is Celtic fans singing their love of the IRA and their attitude towards our army.

 

thats pretty much the crux of it

 

i HATE bigotry in any form it takes, and cannot be arsed with anyone who hates people based on their colour, religion, or any other ism you want to point at

 

the fact is we all breath fart, bleed and shecht and beliefs should not be brought into what is essentially 22 men chasing a bit of leather round a patch of grass

[Bruno]

The problem we have is that there is a section of our support who believe that some acts of reconciliation or integration would be "pandering to the tims" and that this is a bad thing. Why trying to build relationships between communities would be a bad thing I don't know, for me it takes the bigger man to acknowledge differences and start to build bridges. But for the morons on here and in our support, "pandering to the tims" is a fate worse than castration and we must remain as narrow minded as possible.

 

Its like these people think these "tims" all have a secret handshake, secret plans to take over all of Scotland and hidden extra limbs and are just waiting for the right moment, such as an immaculately observed silence for the pope, to make their move, whatever that might be, and strip all good prods (those good prods being the ones who never attend church and wouldn't know Exodus from an Exit sign) of their rights to be complete morons. WTF? Exactly.

[bigwull22]

The problem we have is that there is a section of our support who believe that some acts of reconciliation or integration would be "pandering to the tims" and that this is a bad thing. Why trying to build relationships between communities would be a bad thing I don't know, for me it takes the bigger man to acknowledge differences and start to build bridges. But for the morons on here and in our support, "pandering to the tims" is a fate worse than castration and we must remain as narrow minded as possible.

 

Its like these people think these "tims" all have a secret handshake, secret plans to take over all of Scotland and hidden extra limbs and are just waiting for the right moment, such as an immaculately observed silence for the pope, to make their move, whatever that might be, and strip all good prods (those good prods being the ones who never attend church and wouldn't know Exodus from an Exit sign) of their rights to be complete morons. WTF? Exactly.

 

Lets start by all going to the same Schools then!

[Johanes de Silentio]

Something i've always wondered is why some self proclaimed atheists are so dead set against believers shoving their beliefs down the throat of others, yet think nothing of shoving their atheist views down the throats of others?

 

Both as bad as the other when it comes to making a fool of themselves.

 

Btw, I haven't got a religious bone in my body, so i have no agenda either way.

 

I'll tell you why - because aetheists have been persecuted for centuries by allegedly 'tolerant' Christians, etc. (I cited Galileo Galilei earlier as one very obvious example of this)

 

I don't have a particular axe to grind either, but I resent that persecution, and am not above a wee bit of petty payback.

 

If religious people have a strong enough faith, I think they should be able to have their beliefs tested now and then. People had their faith tested rather a lot, according to the Bible - viddy the Isaac/Abraham malarky.

 

If the clergy could treat a genius like Galileo Galilei so cruelly for daring to publish the truth, I think I'm justified in calling them deluded holy wullies if I like.

 

Seething!

[speedbump]

The problem we have is that there is a section of our support who believe that some acts of reconciliation or integration would be "pandering to the tims" and that this is a bad thing. Why trying to build relationships between communities would be a bad thing I don't know, for me it takes the bigger man to acknowledge differences and start to build bridges. But for the morons on here and in our support, "pandering to the tims" is a fate worse than castration and we must remain as narrow minded as possible.

 

Its like these people think these "tims" all have a secret handshake, secret plans to take over all of Scotland and hidden extra limbs and are just waiting for the right moment, such as an immaculately observed silence for the pope, to make their move, whatever that might be, and strip all good prods (those good prods being the ones who never attend church and wouldn't know Exodus from an Exit sign) of their rights to be complete morons. WTF? Exactly.

 

Who are these people cause I have never heard anyone say anything like that in my life.

[portobellojambo1]

I put it to the folks on here that we are missing a great opportunity to grow as a club by attracting others to our crest and getting their born and bred bums on seats in Tynecastle on a regular basis... We would always be Hearts, we would always be proud of our great history but just as the world has changed, shouldn't our attitudes also? I mean capitalism demands that only the biggest ultimately survive and I think it would do us good to swell our ranks by not being so openly hostile to others joining our cause and helping us grow.

 

This bit confuses me. Who, exactly, is being excluded from Tynecastle. I get the impression that anyone that wants to support Hearts will do so, you cannot force someone to support the club, likewise I don't think barriers are placed on anyone gaining entry to Tynecastle.

 

People of a number of religions, and race can be seen within Tynecastle. I would guess that those from an Indian subcontinent background (i.e. Pakistan/India/Bangladesh/Sri Lanka) are possibly the least represented within Tynecastle, but I don't believe that is because they are not wanted. I think the truth is that in most of those countries football is very much a low level sport, and they'd be more liable to attend Tynecastle if we changed from a football team to a cricket team.

 

In terms of Hearts being a Protestant club I don't think that is the case. I think the same happened historically in Edinburgh as happened in both Glasgow and Dundee. In those cities Hearts, Rangers and Dundee came first. The local Irish population in each city then formed teams to represent their own communities/religion, and, if you like, created the basis on which religious divide could then grow. The non Catholic citizens of those cities at the time were more likely to support one of the three former teams, which then became referred to as the Protestant clubs. Think way back in the late 1800's it is probably reasonably safe to say that religion wise it was very much a case of you were either one or the other, or neither, and if you admitted to being neither you'd probably end up in the sh*t.

[Bruno]

Who are these people cause I have never heard anyone say anything like that in my life.

 

There was a thread in the Terrace a while back where people were discussing some indiscretion by Hibs or Celtic fans (not the recent booing of the silence by Celtic fans at Falkirk, it was a good few months before that) and I brought up the issue of whether we could condemn these fans when our support acted so disgracefully by booing the pope's silence, which then turned into a debate about whether the booing of that silence was justified. There were at least two posters, and I honestly can't remember who, who stated that observing the silence was unacceptable because it would be "pandering to the tims". When finally challenged on why it would be so bad to just stay silent for one minute, the rest response those I was arguing with could come up with was that. Sums it all up for me.

[BlackJAC?]

I'll tell you why - because aetheists have been persecuted for centuries by allegedly 'tolerant' Christians, etc. (I cited Galileo Galilei earlier as one very obvious example of this)

 

I don't have a particular axe to grind either, but I resent that persecution, and am not above a wee bit of petty payback.

 

If religious people have a strong enough faith, I think they should be able to have their beliefs tested now and then. People had their faith tested rather a lot, according to the Bible - viddy the Isaac/Abraham malarky.

 

If the clergy could treat a genius like Galileo Galilei so cruelly for daring to publish the truth, I think I'm justified in calling them deluded holy wullies if I like.

 

Seething!

 

Yeah and Hitler, if he was to believed, was a sceptic himself yet committed countless atrocities against millions of people simply because of their religion.

 

For every example you fire at me, I'll happily fire one back in your direction. It could be a lonnnnnnnnnng night indeed.

[Big G]

A speration of church and state would be a start. The church (any denomination) has no place involving itself in state affairs. Once that happens, the power of these organizations will be diluted. There is a Queen who is also head of a church at the heart of things, and it will probably stay that way.

Jeez, think I've been over here too long-I'm sounding very republicanish

seriously though, I think the churches have too much involvement in political affairs and they should be kept out of it.

[speedbump]

There was a thread in the Terrace a while back where people were discussing some indiscretion by Hibs or Celtic fans (not the recent booing of the silence by Celtic fans at Falkirk, it was a good few months before that) and I brought up the issue of whether we could condemn these fans when our support acted so disgracefully by booing the pope's silence, which then turned into a debate about whether the booing of that silence was justified. There were at least two posters, and I honestly can't remember who, who stated that observing the silence was unacceptable because it would be "pandering to the tims". When finally challenged on why it would be so bad to just stay silent for one minute, the rest response those I was arguing with could come up with was that. Sums it all up for me.

 

A minutes silence for a foreign person, who was head of a foreign religion and it was 2 weeks after his death. To be honest a certain section of our support was set up. I didn't boo, I was in the toilet whistling GSTQ and ****ing as loudly as I possibly could.

[Cheile]

Thank God I am an atheist.

[Ulysses]

Bruno and speedbump, you've made your points. This is a thread about religion, not about the minute's silence. You've both explained your points to each other, and any more about it from anyone would be off topic.

 

Let's all keep to the topic, please, and see if we can debate this without the moderators having to close the thread.

[The Doctor]

A speration of church and state would be a start. The church (any denomination) has no place involving itself in state affairs. Once that happens, the power of these organizations will be diluted. There is a Queen who is also head of a church at the heart of things, and it will probably stay that way.

Jeez, think I've been over here too long-I'm sounding very republicanish

seriously though, I think the churches have too much involvement in political affairs and they should be kept out of it.

 

I think that's a different debate and Scotland's attitude to the links between between church and state has generally been one of separation. At heart, I'm a covenanter.

 

It's ironic that there are those who would claim a protestant religion and lionise the monarch when the Church of Scotland is entirely independent of the state and the Queen, when she is in Scotland, is simply a member of the Kirk, nothing more.

 

On the question of whether Bishops should sit in the House of Lords (again the C of S does not have bishops so it's not a Scottish question) why would you not have men of that kind of education and experience sitting amongst an unelected body? If you are going to have such a body is it not reasonable to have representatives of faith amongst them, especially men with the kind of experience of people that Bishops should have? (Compared to hereditary peers?) I would however open this up to other faiths, there should be Catholic, Muslim and Sikh representatives and the fact that the C of E does not (yet) ordain women as Bishops is another issue. (mind you neither Islam nor the Church of Rome have women leaders at even a local level)

 

This is complicated, I'm glad that we don't have these issues in Scotland. (Apart from the Episcopal church, which is Anglican, so has Bishops, but not in the House of Lords)

[redjambo]

I don't know if this adds to the debate at all, but I don't dislike religion per se, although I feel that people should try and make up their own minds about life and not be influenced so easily by others. Indeed, I know a great number of people who are "religious" and who do a lot of work to make this world a better place.

 

In reality, I think that the problem isn't religion, it is hatred and intolerance which use religion as a convenient medium in which to operate. Religion simply offers those who want to hate an easy way in which to do so. If it wasn't religion, colour of the skin, sexual orientation or whatever, it would be something else. It's just a case of personal insecurity leading to a need to feel secure by finding group comfort and hating or being intolerant of another group of people. I honestly don't know how we'll ever overcome that.

[speedbump]

For the record I do not hate the so called other side of the christian divide.

[The Doctor]

For the record I do not hate the so called other side of the christian divide.

 

This is an oxymoron. Do I need to start quoting scripture on unity?

 

Christianity is all about unity, man and God, man and other men. It should unite, if it divides, it's not Christianity.

 

What you mean is religious divide.

[Ulysses]

...for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

I'm not.

[redjambo]

This is an oxymoron. Do I need to start quoting scripture on unity?

 

Christianity is all about unity, man and God, man and other men. It should unite, if it divides, it's not Christianity.

 

What you mean is religious divide.

 

This is a religious divide that concerns two branches of Christianity so I think the previous poster is correct and accurate in calling it a Christian divide.

[The Doctor]

I'm not.

 

[Big G]

Nobody in today's environment can seriously lay claim to Hearts being a Protestant club. I'm catholic and a Hearts fan. But that has about as much relevence as Obama and his Nobel peace prize.

We are all Hearts fans, and I seriously doubt if some dude is sittting in his seat wondering: " Hmmm, I wonder if that cat next to me is catholic, Jewish, or Hindu ." I don't know what it was like sixty years ago because I wasn't there.

I highly doubt that any organization would set up a culture based on a Christian faith as a business model.