Is the Catholic Church a Force For Good in the World?

[BigC]

I understand that there is the possibility for this thread to go down hill quickly, but given the quality of the debate in the video below, I felt it worthy of posting for discussion on here.

 

In order to minimise the risk of the thread being pulled early, I'm suggesting a couple of ground rules:

 

1. No posting until you have watched all 5 parts of the video posted.

2. Post only on subject matter contained within the debate on the video.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvZz_pxZ2lw&feature=player_embedded

 

It really is worth watching. Steven Fry in particular raises some cracking points.

 

And just a reminder - please let's be grown ups about this!

[The Mighty Thor]

No.

 

Pope John Paul II personally spread HIV across Africa single handedly.

 

Source = Jambos kickback thread on 'which was worse' in the Terrace.

[2NaFish]

thanks for posting that, as enjoyable as anything i've watched for weeks.

 

nothing said changed my views in any meaningful way, and i can't imagine anyone else experiencing anything other. i was, however, dissapointed by the quality of the arguments trotted out by the apologists; attacking bankers and playing the 'poor african' as opposed to the wealthy catholic, a mixture of playing to the gallery and cheap obfuscation. they were, ahem, already in the lion's den, the least they could've done was provided an impassioned defence of their church.

 

bravo steven fry.

[Tynie b]

Haven't watched the Videos yet...But, I will say NO!! I am not a bigot, I would say that NO Religion is a force for GOOD...All Religion is Wrong, Religion Causes Most Wars, Religion, and religious people,Are responsible for the deaths of Millions of Inocent people...And Worse attrocities!

 

I will watch the Videos later and let you know IF i've changed my veiws!!

[super_vlad]

Haven't watched the Videos yet...But, I will say NO!! I am not a bigot, I would say that NO Religion is a force for GOOD...All Religion is Wrong, Religion Causes Most Wars, Religion, and religious people,Are responsible for the deaths of Millions of Inocent people...And Worse attrocities!

 

I will watch the Videos later and let you know IF i've changed my veiws!!

 

I watched the videos, and it was always going to be one-way with the panelist they had on. Again Fry as always was excellent, as was CH.

 

I agree with Tynie B about Religions people causeing far more bad than good in this world. The problem with all religion was pointed out in the debate. If there is a all knowing god and we take his teachings as the truth then why are they so out of tune with the mordern world ?

 

I do think that reliogon can help people thru there lives but they have to be opened mined and not believe everything that is spoon fed to you.

 

As for the Church, then yes there were respondible for many bad things in the world and contine with this. The whole reason there are in Aftica is to get more people to join there cult !

[bigwull22]

Education the destroyer of God.

[ToYouToMe]

Education the destroyer of God.

 

So there are no intelligent, well-educated Christians then? The OP's wish was that the thread would not descend into farce, just happened unfortunately.

[Tynie b]

So there are no intelligent, well-educated Christians then? The OP's wish was that the thread would not descend into farce, just happened unfortunately.

 

It has now!!

[Gizmo]

I missed that program, thanks for the link.

 

It would have better served the debate to have had an intellectual to argue the debate for the Church - after all you do get physicists and other scientists who are also of the Christian faith.

 

The emotive, dismissive approach by Widdiecombe, and the earnest but factually lacking arguments put forward by the Bishop were easily dismissed by Hitchens and then obliterated in a powerful but balanced argument by Fry. He needed better opponents.

 

As an aside, I found it most amusing for Widdiecombe and the Church to attack bankers for the ills of the world - when the Church in it's early incarnation served as much as a bank (and of course as a political body such was it's influence) as a place to worship.

[Brian_1874]

Lets not forget the history of the Catholic church. Persecuting those that dared to question their view. Gallileo for one who had the temerity to suggest that the Earth was not at the centre of the universe.

[jambojackbilly]

Those that think that theirs a God are hoping against hope when it's time to go

[mac]

This proves, once again, that religion has held back the development of mankind.

 

CH and SF made the most persuasive arguments, whereas the other two defenders of the faith blamed everyone else but the church, trying to justify their beliefs while refusing to accept responsibility.

[letsalllaughathobos]

chatholic church is full of pedophiles ohohohohoh

why they still have followers is beond me.

[Cisc0 K1d]

What Stephen Fry says is pretty much spot on, I think the Catholic Church is a force for some good and an awful lot of not so good just like most other religions and faiths.

 

I think that the idea of things like god and heaven are up there with santa clause and the tooth fairy. Religion does give some good moral ideals to live your life by but as a non-believer I still know right from wrong as well as things like forgiveness and how to treat my fellow man and woman.

 

Education is much more of a force for good than any religion.

[southside1874]

Watched that on BBC world news at the weekend. Brilliant.

[mac]

There was no mention of "The Devil" - a concept created by the church so they can easily shift blame when any god-squad agent commits any atrocity in their name.

 

Does "the Devil" still exist?

 

Theological debate's are entertaining.

[2NaFish]

There was no mention of "The Devil" - a concept created by the church so they can easily shift blame when any god-squad agent commits any atrocity in their name.

 

Does "the Devil" still exist?

 

Theological debate's are entertaining.

 

As ever bill hicks has the answer.

 

"What could defy God's will? Nothing!!"

[The Doctor]

Finally got round to watching the debate.

 

I think the Roman Catholic Church has a great deal to apologise for, I absolutely agree with what was said about the systematic rape of children, the spread of HIV/AIDS because of false teaching and misguided doctrine over the use of condoms in Africa and with many other criticisms voiced, both historic and contemporary.

 

But to suggest that it is only and has ever only been a force for bad is ridiculous and ignorant.

 

However, I am not a Roman Catholic and I'm not a Roman Catholic because I am opposed to much of their doctrine and their practice. To lump together the behaviour of an institution with the faith and practice of individuals and of the catholic church as a whole is crass.

 

Some have said that education has killed or is killing God, as if a belief in God is only for the ignorant, uneducated or superstitious. What arrogant nonsense.

 

There is a reason that the colleges of Oxford and Cambridge (All Souls, Christ Church, Jesus, Magdalen, Trinity, Corpus Christi and many others named for Saints) are named for Christian standards. They were founded by men of God. The church gave this country education and it will not and cannot be shamed by it.

 

Read the teaching of Jesus. If a whole gospel is too much for you, read the Sermon on the Mount, you'll find it in Matthew chapters 5-7. If you've not got a bible you can read it here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205&version=TNIV

 

The church of which I am a Pastor gave away 20% of it's income last year to charities, to projects, to good causes, many thousands of pounds. I am taking a group of 15 to Rwanda next year (including 10 teenagers) to work with a church in Kigali who run projects helping widows and orphans of the genocide, including a project harvesting geranium oil and a nursery and primary school.

 

I believe that whilst the Roman Catholic Church has not always or even often been a force for good, the catholic church and particularly the teaching of Jesus has been and continues to be a force for good. Christianity in it's purest form, untainted by the greed or corruption of man, is undoubtedly a force for good.

 

(One of the things I'm hoping to do when I go to Rwanda is take a bag of Hearts tops with me for the kids in the local area, so I'll be badgering you to send me your tops from this season, and previous seasons, in May. I'm not going until the end of August so there's plenty of time)

 

I'd also like to invite you to my church this Sunday, I'm preaching so you can come and heckle me! We start at 10.30am in Linlithgow Academy. Come and worship!

[Craigieboy]

Christianity in it's purest form, untainted by the greed or corruption of man, is undoubtedly a force for good.

 

Where does such a faith exist?

 

Well done btw with the Rwanda work. I'd help you out with a top or 2.

 

,

[The Doctor]

Where does such a faith exist?

 

Well done btw with the Rwanda work. I'd help you out with a top or 2.

 

,

 

That's a good question.

 

I suppose it's an aspiration, there is no perfect church, it certainly isn't mine, but Christians should aspire to be like Jesus.

 

I think that there are churches that are very good and there are churches that are less good. There are Christians that are more like Jesus than others. Christians who are humble, who want to serve others, who love and give sacrificially. These are some of the markers of faith that is good.

 

The bible says that if Christians are displaying characteristics of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self control then they are on the right path.

 

I should also note that unlike Judaism or Islam, Christianity is a personal faith, not a corporate one, Jesus saves individuals, individuals respond to the call to repentance and salvation. That's one of the things that organised religion and large church movements struggle to reconcile.

 

 

I'll hold you to the tops! God Bless You!

[southside1874]

Finally got round to watching the debate.

 

I think the Roman Catholic Church has a great deal to apologise for, I absolutely agree with what was said about the systematic rape of children, the spread of HIV/AIDS because of false teaching and misguided doctrine over the use of condoms in Africa and with many other criticisms voiced, both historic and contemporary.

 

But to suggest that it is only and has ever only been a force for bad is ridiculous and ignorant.

 

However, I am not a Roman Catholic and I'm not a Roman Catholic because I am opposed to much of their doctrine and their practice. To lump together the behaviour of an institution with the faith and practice of individuals and of the catholic church as a whole is crass.

 

Some have said that education has killed or is killing God, as if a belief in God is only for the ignorant, uneducated or superstitious. What arrogant nonsense.

 

There is a reason that the colleges of Oxford and Cambridge (All Souls, Christ Church, Jesus, Magdalen, Trinity, Corpus Christi and many others named for Saints) are named for Christian standards. They were founded by men of God. The church gave this country education and it will not and cannot be shamed by it.

 

Read the teaching of Jesus. If a whole gospel is too much for you, read the Sermon on the Mount, you'll find it in Matthew chapters 5-7. If you've not got a bible you can read it here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205&version=TNIV

 

The church of which I am a Pastor gave away 20% of it's income last year to charities, to projects, to good causes, many thousands of pounds. I am taking a group of 15 to Rwanda next year (including 10 teenagers) to work with a church in Kigali who run projects helping widows and orphans of the genocide, including a project harvesting geranium oil and a nursery and primary school.

 

I believe that whilst the Roman Catholic Church has not always or even often been a force for good, the catholic church and particularly the teaching of Jesus has been and continues to be a force for good. Christianity in it's purest form, untainted by the greed or corruption of man, is undoubtedly a force for good.

 

(One of the things I'm hoping to do when I go to Rwanda is take a bag of Hearts tops with me for the kids in the local area, so I'll be badgering you to send me your tops from this season, and previous seasons, in May. I'm not going until the end of August so there's plenty of time)

 

I'd also like to invite you to my church this Sunday, I'm preaching so you can come and heckle me! We start at 10.30am in Linlithgow Academy. Come and worship!

 

The Roman church is an extension of the roman empire and has never been a true reflection of the true teachings of Jesus. IMO

[Groot]

The church of which I am a Pastor gave away 20% of it's income last year to charities, to projects, to good causes, many thousands of pounds. I am taking a group of 15 to Rwanda next year (including 10 teenagers) to work with a church in Kigali who run projects helping widows and orphans of the genocide, including a project harvesting geranium oil and a nursery and primary school.

 

I believe that whilst the Roman Catholic Church has not always or even often been a force for good, the catholic church and particularly the teaching of Jesus has been and continues to be a force for good. Christianity in it's purest form, untainted by the greed or corruption of man, is undoubtedly a force for good.

 

 

First of all I'll admit to not watching my debate and that I am a firm non-believer

 

the doctor sort of covered the point I wanted to make anyway, I believe organised religion has caused many problems in the world but what cannot be denied is that many many good things are done on a daily basis in the name of the churches, and as such by their existence they are doing good in the world like what the doc is doing

 

I'd like to think the good outweighs the bad, it just doesn't make as good news

[BlackJAC?]

No.

 

Pope John Paul II personally spread HIV across Africa single handedly.

 

Source = Jambos kickback thread on 'which was worse' in the Terrace.

 

The fact is though, some people from the Vatican, past and present, need to take a damn good look at themselves over their zero contraceptive African policy and everywhere else come to think about it. So aye, it's not as far fetched as some Catholics make it out to be.

 

When you're dealing with poorly educated masses, and you're in an influential position to communicate to those people, then you have to shoulder the responsibility when your teachings are having an adverse effect on those aforementioned people.

[2NaFish]

The Roman church is an extension of the roman empire and has never been a true reflection of the true teachings of Jesus. IMO

 

for certain periods this can be said to be true, but for the majority of its existence the papacy has considered itself superior to the empire and has been at odds with the emperor rather than being a mouthpiece. even then the roman empire has been peripheral for the majority of european history for the past 1500 years.

[Ulysses]

Lets not forget the history of the Catholic church. Persecuting those that dared to question their view. Gallileo for one who had the temerity to suggest that the Earth was not at the centre of the universe.

 

In fairness, that has a lot to do with Catholicism abusing its monopoly position in the spiritual marketplace at that time in history - in much the same way as Islam does today where it has a monopoly. The problem with Catholicism (as indeed is the problem with any social or political institution) is that its structures, procedures and hierarchies are operated by people - and some people, given the opportunity, are corruptible.

 

Leaving aside the obvious and very significant flaw that lies at the heart of all religious faith systems, the question is whether or not the Catholic Church is a force for good in the world. And considering it as a social and cultural construct, I think the answer is yes and no. It does things that are good that might not get done otherwise. And it does things that are bad that it should not do.

 

However, given that the Catholic Church is only one of about 600 different brands in the spiritual marketplace, and that many of the other flavours of religion out there also achieve good things, it's not at all clear that the Catholic Church adds unique value any longer. If a huge number of its adherents switched their loyalty to Brand X and carried on doing good things in their communities, would we really miss Catholicism? Probably not. But is Catholicism unique in that respect? After all, the same could be said of any of the 600 religious faith options available to us.

[BlackJAC?]

First of all I'll admit to not watching my debate and that I am a firm non-believer

 

the doctor sort of covered the point I wanted to make anyway, I believe organised religion has caused many problems in the world but what cannot be denied is that many many good things are done on a daily basis in the name of the churches, and as such by their existence they are doing good in the world like what the doc is doing

 

I'd like to think the good outweighs the bad, it just doesn't make as good news

 

I've said it time and again and I'll say it again, Religion hasn't caused problems, nor can it, as it not a physical entity.

 

If there was no religion mankind would have used something else to mask its shortcomings. You seriously think all those wars et al were caused by religion rather than the greed of a few?

[Cade]

The Vatican Knew.

 

That is all......

[Walter Kidd]

Try travelling to Makati City in the Phillipines where you will see poverty like you could not imagine, while the churches drip with gold.

 

Religion of any sort is for people with no imagination.

 

While oppression is where its at. And child abuse on a grand scale. The catholic church is a haven for paedophiles.

[Brian_1874]

In fairness, that has a lot to do with Catholicism abusing its monopoly position in the spiritual marketplace at that time in history - in much the same way as Islam does today where it has a monopoly. The problem with Catholicism (as indeed is the problem with any social or political institution) is that its structures, procedures and hierarchies are operated by people - and some people, given the opportunity, are corruptible.

 

Leaving aside the obvious and very significant flaw that lies at the heart of all religious faith systems, the question is whether or not the Catholic Church is a force for good in the world. And considering it as a social and cultural construct, I think the answer is yes and no. It does things that are good that might not get done otherwise. And it does things that are bad that it should not do.

 

However, given that the Catholic Church is only one of about 600 different brands in the spiritual marketplace, and that many of the other flavours of religion out there also achieve good things, it's not at all clear that the Catholic Church adds unique value any longer. If a huge number of its adherents switched their loyalty to Brand X and carried on doing good things in their communities, would we really miss Catholicism? Probably not. But is Catholicism unique in that respect? After all, the same could be said of any of the 600 religious faith options available to us.

 

Yes they are corruptible people but I would suggest that the Catholic Church is a lot more corrupt than most other Christian denominations.

The Protestant branch was set up as a protest hence the name at the rife corruption in the Roman Catholic Church. It got to the stage where if you paid a certain amount of money you could 'buy' your way to heaven.

The problem with all mainstream religion and even atheism is it closes off the mind. The debate was very interesting all though I think the panel for the catholic church were severely outgunned by the skilled orators of Steven Fry and Hitchens. The catholic church are a homophobic organisation and yes also sexist in my opinion. It is absoluteley not a force for good unless it completeley reinvents itself which won't be happening any time soon.

[IMA MAROON]

And just a reminder - please let's be grown ups about this!

 

SF and CH are both well known huns, they are white underclass.

 

Is the church a force for good? Is it the reason it exists? I doubt it.

[The Mighty Thor]

The fact is though, some people from the Vatican, past and present, need to take a damn good look at themselves over their zero contraceptive African policy and everywhere else come to think about it. So aye, it's not as far fetched as some Catholics make it out to be.

 

When you're dealing with poorly educated masses, and you're in an influential position to communicate to those people, then you have to shoulder the responsibility when your teachings are having an adverse effect on those aforementioned people.

 

I'm not disputing the doctrine as passed down from Rome has an influence on what are in effect fairly rudimentary societies but i think saying the spread of HIV throughout Africa is down to the Catholic church is stretching it just a tad.

 

I must say I personally have my doubts that contraception or sexual health is high on the agenda when you've no idea where your next meal is coming from and you're drinking water straight out a river that's dirtier than the Forth.

[Pete Seeger]

There's both good and bad come out of all church's. But the catholic church really has to come into the 21st century. It was cringeworthy watching that priest trying to avoid Stephen Fry's question on homosexuality. If the catholic church changed it's policies on contraception,sexuality and beasting children I wouldn't have a problem with it. But they won't.

[Pete Seeger]

I'm not disputing the doctrine as passed down from Rome has an influence on what are in effect fairly rudimentary societies but i think saying the spread of HIV throughout Africa is down to the Catholic church is stretching it just a tad.

 

I must say I personally have my doubts that contraception or sexual health is high on the agenda when you've no idea where your next meal is coming from and you're drinking water straight out a river that's dirtier than the Forth.

 

 

Did they use their power over these people to try to solve the problem?

 

 

Are you saying that because these people live in terrible conditions that they shouldn't protect themselves against HIV?

[The Mighty Thor]

[/b]

 

 

Did they use their power over these people to try to solve the problem?

 

 

Are you saying that because these people live in terrible conditions that they shouldn't protect themselves against HIV?

 

Of course not. The biggest challenge facing the World Health Organisation wasn't one of going against the catholic church but more one of getting a relatively backward people to understand what HIV is and how it spreads.

 

Like i said Food and clean water are a more pressing priority than a packet of 3 for the weekend!

[Haggismac]

Fascinating debate, thanks to the OP for posting.

 

Despite your position on this matter it doesn’t help when the debate teams were a complete mismatch.

 

My position hasn’t changes and I think this captured the mood of the nation and have given the church a lot to think about if it wants to sustain such a large following in the developed world. The Catholic church might wake to a very different story in 4 generations time.

[Tynie b]

Try travelling to Makati City in the Phillipines where you will see poverty like you could not imagine, while the churches drip with gold.

Religion of any sort is for people with no imagination.

 

While oppression is where its at. And child abuse on a grand scale. The catholic church is a haven for paedophiles.

 

There is the MAJOR problem for me! Churches and Church Leaders live a life of Luxury, No other word for it, While around them their "Followers" live in Squaller...If the Catholic Church gave up probably HALF the wealth it has hidden, it could probably help a Majority of "It's People" around the world.

But then if they done that, then these people would not live in fear of their Made Up Gods, Jebus and beliefs set there to strike fear into them...ALL RELIGION STINKS, all people who preach it do so for their own aganda, I don't know what that is. I don't care. it's wrong!!

 

As for helping others in Africa, India (My mother in Law is going again next year..With HER church!!) and other third world countries...Lots of people I know have done this, nothing to do with a Made up entity, to do with wanting to help those less fortunate...I'll say it again All Religion is Wrong!!

 

As for Doc...I would give you a couple of Tops for the Kids...BUT, Don't say God or Jesus bless you!!!

[Boris]

I watched the debate and Hitchens & Fry certainly won it, imo.

 

The wider question though was sort of lost though. You can look at the ideology and say "That's wrong" - which I personally think that a lot of it is, however when you look at it at the micro level there are priests and nuns who do a hell of a lot of good work with people in parts of the world where their own governments have forgotten about them.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Church hierarchy is a nonsense, but there are individuals who do a lot of good, nominally in the name of God and the Pope, but you can't take get away from the fact that they are helping people live.

 

I am an aethiest but when in Kolkata I visited Mother Theresa's Missionary and was quite bowled over by it. What that women did and started is in no way a bad thing for the world, not least the poor and orphaned of Kolkata.

 

Perhaps if governments took action on things like poverty and stopped kow-towing to "the bottom line" and the FTSE and profit and big business then action could be taken globally to sort it all out without the need for religion to muddy the waters with their inflexible ideologies.

[The Doctor]

There is the MAJOR problem for me! Churches and Church Leaders live a life of Luxury, No other word for it, While around them their "Followers" live in Squaller...If the Catholic Church gave up probably HALF the wealth it has hidden, it could probably help a Majority of "It's People" around the world.

But then if they done that, then these people would not live in fear of their Made Up Gods, Jebus and beliefs set there to strike fear into them...ALL RELIGION STINKS, all people who preach it do so for their own aganda, I don't know what that is. I don't care. it's wrong!!

 

As for helping others in Africa, India (My mother in Law is going again next year..With HER church!!) and other third world countries...Lots of people I know have done this, nothing to do with a Made up entity, to do with wanting to help those less fortunate...I'll say it again All Religion is Wrong!!

 

As for Doc...I would give you a couple of Tops for the Kids...BUT, Don't say God or Jesus bless you!!!

 

That's utterly ridiculous. If you think I live a life of wealth and luxury you are as deluded as the average hobo.

 

The minimum stipend for a Baptist pastor in Scotland is 16K a year. This for a man or woman who has spent at least four years in further education and works probably around 60 hours a week! Granted most Pastors would earn more than that, maybe in the 25K range, but generally less than than a policeman or a teacher.

 

Being a church leader is not a way to a life of wealth and luxury and churches (particularly independent churches) in the UK are not wealthy. As I've said my church gives away all of it's offerings after salaries and rents are paid and is committed to giving many thousands of pounds to support charities all over the world.

 

Maybe the CofS and the Roman Catholic Church have a vast wealth tied up in city centre buildings, churches and manses, but independent churches are not financially rich.

 

I've already agreed to at least a pay freeze next year and that may yet become a reduction in salary as we try to balance our books. I'm certainly not in this for the money!

 

 

 

I will take you up on your offer of a top or two though!

 

Thanks!

[Tynie b]

That's utterly ridiculous. If you think I live a life of wealth and luxury you are as deluded as the average hobo.

 

The minimum stipend for a Baptist pastor in Scotland is 16K a year. This for a man or woman who has spent at least four years in further education and works probably around 60 hours a week! Granted most Pastors would earn more than that, maybe in the 25K range, but generally less than than a policeman or a teacher.

 

Being a church leader is not a way to a life of wealth and luxury and churches (particularly independent churches) in the UK are not wealthy. As I've said my church gives away all of it's offerings after salaries and rents are paid and is committed to giving many thousands of pounds to support charities all over the world.

 

Maybe the CofS and the Roman Catholic Church have a vast wealth tied up in city centre buildings, churches and manses, but independent churches are not financially rich.

 

I've already agreed to at least a pay freeze next year and that may yet become a reduction in salary as we try to balance our books. I'm certainly not in this for the money!

 

 

 

I will take you up on your offer of a top or two though!

 

Thanks!

 

When I said Church Leaders, I didn't mean Pastors, Ministers or Even priests...I meant Archbishops and whatever the hell the rest are called...Sorry for the misunderstanding...I don't think for a minute that "Normal" church preachers etc... are "Dripping in Gold"...I do believe you know where i'm coming from though...How much do you think the treasures HIDDEN in the Vatican for example are worth , Not Just Holy Treasures?

 

Anyway, I'll leave it at that, Post when and were you'd like the Tops sent!!

[Acey]

Granted most Pastors would earn more than that, maybe in the 25K range, but generally less than than a policeman or a teacher.

 

Good.

[Tynie b]

Good.

 

[Debut 4]

Reading National Geos special edish on the Holy Land just now. Great read and insight into Judaism, Christianity and Islam. We forget all 3 are basically the same religion yet they are so far apart after lifetime upon lifetime of "tweaking", to put it mildly, and maniacs acting in their name.

 

Yep, religion has caused alot of heartache but mainly because of the misguided millions who are led down the hate route.

 

It`s a shame. There is so much mystique about religion and many glorious and buildings, monuments etc around the world..to be admired.

 

 

sorry to go off topic a bit.

[mac]

As ever bill hicks has the answer.

 

"What could defy God's will? Nothing!!"

 

Forgot about that one, 2Na - any true believer has to agree - "Nothing can defy God's will!!!"

 

(Nearly typed "God's wii")

[Therapist]

It is most definitely a force for good in the world if one gives any credence to idolatry, medieval mumbo jumbo and dogma, ignorance of medical and scientific facts, and the ability to line the corporate body's pockets at the expense of its followers.

[Tazio]

It is most definitely a force for good in the world if one gives any credence to idolatry, medieval mumbo jumbo and dogma, ignorance of medical and scientific facts, and the ability to line the corporate body's pockets at the expense of its followers.

 

That's all very well but are you for or against it.

[Therapist]

That's all very well but are you for or against it.

 

[BlackJAC?]

I'm not disputing the doctrine as passed down from Rome has an influence on what are in effect fairly rudimentary societies but i think saying the spread of HIV throughout Africa is down to the Catholic church is stretching it just a tad.

 

I must say I personally have my doubts that contraception or sexual health is high on the agenda when you've no idea where your next meal is coming from and you're drinking water straight out a river that's dirtier than the Forth.

 

Then you'd be wrong. Aid agencies have been saying for years that the eradication of disease (HIV, dysentery etc) is every bit as important as the nourishment these people require on a daily basis. The means are there - condoms etc, however, like any poorly educated populous, they tend to believe the preaching of a few rather than the concerns of many.

 

1000's of kids are orphaned every day due to Aids and a large percentage of those kids have the misfortune of carrying on their parents legacy as they have HIV themselves.

 

100 bags of potatoes and drinking water ain't gonna stop the spread of Aids and other nasties. Contraception does that. A parent isn't any good, nor gonna be providing anything to a baby, toddler or child if that parent is dead from having aids. That baby will more than likely die before its 1st b'day.

 

I know this post appears patronising, but it's not indented that way, so don't take it that way, mate.

[bigwull22]

So there are no intelligent, well-educated Christians then? The OP's wish was that the thread would not descend into farce, just happened unfortunately.

 

Intelligent people can be brainwashed too.

[Ulysses]

I know this post appears patronising, but it's not indented that way, so don't take it that way, mate.

 

Maybe it's just my screen, but it looks to me as if your post isn't indented at all.

[mac]

Purely for my own education please, which book or part of the bible (which I understand is God's word) actually mentions "The Pope", or is that a man made position? Just asking.