Guest juvehearts Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 were doomed our currancy will be euro by the end of 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughesie27 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Linky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Seeger Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Link as above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest juvehearts Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Linky? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/6496336/Lisbon-Treaty-more-of-Britains-powers-surrendered-to-Brussels.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 our currancy will be euro by the end of 2010 Which would be no bad thing. It's a bit quaint that people use currency which has some 80 year old's face on it as a means of national identity. Such is the nature of the British Nationalist - a soon-to-be relic of the past. As for the Lisbon Treaty, this was ratified by the House of Lords a while ago - it's really not that exciting a piece of legislation. The Tories attempt to make political currency out of this really has blown back in their face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_1874 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 A dark day indeed. An affront to democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 A dark day indeed. An affront to democracy. Should the public be allowed to vote on all forms of legislation? Seriously. The only people upset at this are those deluded enough to think that the UK has some sort of international significance. It will only get this through deeper EU integration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incompetnce Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 The Euro's not that bad. They don't take Sterling in Ireland so I find it works rather well indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_1874 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Should the public be allowed to vote on all forms of legislation? Seriously. The only people upset at this are those deluded enough to think that the UK has some sort of international significance. It will only get this through deeper EU integration. They should be allowed to vote on this when it comes to handing over sovereignty and lawmaking powers. What is being created is a United Nations of Europe. The people don't want it but so what? Those at the top do and that's all that counts. The will of the European people is being bypassed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungry hippo Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Not bothered TBH and that's not apathy. I just don't view Europe as being the enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 were doomed our currancy will be euro by the end of 2010 No it won't. Adding the pound to the Euro would be like chucking an elephant into a sinking boat. The whole thing would capsize. The Euro will be in enough trouble once the Germans realise that there is no option for them other than to cover the PIIGS debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Should the public be allowed to vote on all forms of legislation? Seriously. The only people upset at this are those deluded enough to think that the UK has some sort of international significance. It will only get this through deeper EU integration. I fundamentally disagree with you. There is a disconnect between the European body politic and the populous. Democracy is empowered by people and decisions are being made without reference to them or being changed to ensure that "the right result" occurs. The constitution was rejected by the French and Dutch, so a quick Find and Replace of constitution by treaty allowed their parliaments to ignore the referenda. That is contempt for democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Roller Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 They should be allowed to vote on this when it comes to handing over sovereignty and lawmaking powers. What is being created is a United Nations of Europe. The people don't want it but so what? Those at the top do and that's all that counts. The will of the European people is being bypassed. poor attempt at a haiku,IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wibble Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 A dark day indeed. An affront to democracy. DailyMailSpeak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberjambo Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 They should be allowed to vote on this when it comes to handing over sovereignty and lawmaking powers. What is being created is a United Nations of Europe.The people don't want it but so what? Those at the top do and that's all that counts. The will of the European people is being bypassed. It is a United States of Europe, modelled on America with a President etc. The UK will be the equivalent of Alabama whilst the power will lie with Germany and France. Just what our forefathers gave up their lives for, eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I take it everyone who is critical of the treaty has read it and knows exactly how it neuters parliamentary sovereignty at Westminster and Holyrood? If so please expand as I haven't read it and do not understand its consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
269miles Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 poor attempt at a haiku,IMO Very subtle Actually , there's enough there for two haikus ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 It is a United States of Europe, modelled on America with a President etc. The UK will be the equivalent of Alabama whilst the power will lie with Germany and France. Just what our forefathers gave up their lives for, eh. Can you explain how you came to this laughable conclusion? Some folk are harping on as if the EU is something relatively new, when it was effectively created before most of those on this forum were born. Would people prefer a UK isolated within Europe so they can hold on to their pathetic, Anglo-centric Imperialist delusion? The UK is not relevant on the global stage and it hasn't been for the best part of 50 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Findlay Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 When I was at school and sudying geography. Europe was a continent. Much in the same way as Africa, The Americas(North and South), Asia etc etc. It is not to my knowledge a country. I do not want a United States of Europe. Europe is to old and has to much history to be United as in the same way as the United States of America though if you have ever travelled through the likes of Alabama, Louisanna, Mississippi, Texas. Then you would be forgiven for thinking the USA was not that United. I do not want a president of Europe, regardless of who they are and what country they are from. It cannot be correct in that when a country holds a referendum and it's peoples vote no. They then have to hold another referendum and if the peoples vote Yes then that is fine. Does the first vote for no not count? Only a yes vote? Brussels and Strasbourg are far bigger gravy trains than any parliament in the UK will ever be. I want Germans to be German, The French, French etc etc. To me it is what makes the world go round. Bollocks to every country in Europe more or less being the same. Travel then becomes even more blander in Europe than it is now. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberjambo Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 What we originally signed up for was a common market. Not a superstate. If you think I am wrong with my analogy, wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 As I said earlier, can someone explain to me how this treaty affects UK sovereignty? In what way is an EU President different to each member state holding the "Presidency" for a 6 month period? Does this treaty affect the UK opt out clauses, for example on Human Rights? Genuine question seeks genuine answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euan64 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 For me personally I would rather have a pan wide European state as they have shown before they are more fair and socially just rather than the Anglo Saxon way of imperialism and profit. People moan about Europe but I would say it is far more consumer and worker friendly than Westminster will ever be with their noses so far up big business its disgusting. Also a European superstate will allow for good government that doesn't pander to every whim of the reactionary red tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Centralisation of power through centralisation of decisioning making from an unelected body of bureaucrats, centralisation of more control through new laws and taxes. CENTRALISATION OF LAWS AND DECISIONING MAKING = COMPLETE CONTROL. FASCIST CENTRALISED POLICE STATE TO GOVERN AND GRADUALLY FADE IN THE COMING GLOBAL GOVERNMENT,ARMY AND BANK, when that happens its game set and match to the big brother state on a global scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerothehero Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Sign me up. While we're at it let's adopt some European social attitudes and definitely some of their food. A bit of their football would be alright as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Currahee! Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Sign me up. While we're at it let's adopt some European social attitudes and definitely some of their food. A bit of their football would be alright as well. I like this! Also get some of their petrol prices.....well Spain's anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwull22 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 At least we now have some kind of written constitution and rights. I think this is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac_fae_Gillie Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Heck just means some updated rules and regs.. May not agree with them all(darned if I know any of them) so what I dont agree with al Scotlands rules and regs or UKs rules and regs but on the whole its better than no rules and regs.JUST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Bob Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 At least we now have some kind of written constitution and rights. I think this is a good thing. Well said that man. As for not having a referndum, I'm surprised they're not holding referenda to keep us out. How many countries must hold fond memories of boozed up Brits, barfing, peeing down closes, and challenging all and sundry to a square go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denny Crane Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Centralisation of power through centralisation of decisioning making from an unelected body of bureaucrats, centralisation of more control through new laws and taxes. CENTRALISATION OF LAWS AND DECISIONING MAKING = COMPLETE CONTROL. FASCIST CENTRALISED POLICE STATE TO GOVERN AND GRADUALLY FADE IN THE COMING GLOBAL GOVERNMENT,ARMY AND BANK, when that happens its game set and match to the big brother state on a global scale. At which point this chap takes over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 This new treaty makes it LESS beaurocratic, with LESS red tape and less quangos running it. It streamlines the current EU and makes it better all round. Cor blimey, some of you lot seem to think there is an EU army massing on the other side of the channel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 This new treaty makes it LESS beaurocratic, with LESS red tape and less quangos running it. It streamlines the current EU and makes it better all round. Cor blimey, some of you lot seem to think there is an EU army massing on the other side of the channel! Which makes my point entirely. There is a fundamental disconnect between what people perceive as their Government (Westminster/Holyrood) and where laws actually originate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Des' Dad Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Some of the best new laws in this country over the last ten or so years have come from EU legislation including human rights, anti discrimination and protection for workers. None of these laws would have been passed by a Tory government hence their anti EU stance. It's also questionable if our Labour government would have passed some of these laws had they been given a chance. The Tories, UKIP et al are opposed to Europe because of what they see as too much protection for workers to the detriment of their paymasters - big business. The working people of this country would do well to remember that Europe is more of a friend to them than most political parties here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 It's not going to matter a jot anyway - we're all toast in 2012!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberjambo Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Some of the best new laws in this country over the last ten or so years have come from EU legislation including human rights, imo the worst piece of legislation over the last decade or two. It has been totally twisted from what it was meant to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberjambo Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 It's not going to matter a jot anyway - we're all toast in 2012!!! Mayan behave yerself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Incidentally, one point about Lisbon. Unlike Maastricht, Nice etc. this treaty is self-amending (hence why it is like a constitution). In other words, there will be no need to consult the pesky electorate again, who might not do what they are told to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie Pal Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Some of the best new laws in this country over the last ten or so years have come from EU legislation including human rights, anti discrimination and protection for workers. None of these laws would have been passed by a Tory government hence their anti EU stance. It's also questionable if our Labour government would have passed some of these laws had they been given a chance. The Tories, UKIP et al are opposed to Europe because of what they see as too much protection for workers to the detriment of their paymasters - big business. The working people of this country would do well to remember that Europe is more of a friend to them than most political parties here. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Incidentally, one point about Lisbon. Unlike Maastricht, Nice etc. this treaty is self-amending (hence why it is like a constitution). In other words, there will be no need to consult the pesky electorate again, who might not do what they are told to do. Geoff, the continent of Europe was in pretty much a constant state of war right up until 1945. Can you even conceive two member states of the current European Union now going to war? It is largely through the political and economic integration that the EU has brought to the countries of Europe, that we enjoy the peace and relative prosperity we have today. There is strength in union, just as Scotland is better off as a member of the UK, the UK is better off as a member of the European Union. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Geoff, the continent of Europe was in pretty much a constant state of war right up until 1945. Can you even conceive two member states of the current European Union now going to war? It is largely through the political and economic integration that the EU has brought to the countries of Europe, that we enjoy the peace and relative prosperity we have today. There is strength in union, just as Scotland is better off as a member of the UK, the UK is better off as a member of the European Union. Martin, this argument is specious. For 40 years, NATO kept the peace in Western Europe - what do you think the Cold War was? Also I think the Balkan countries might argue about European war. It took the Americans to sort that out whilst the EU dithered. I am not anti-Europe. That doesn't mean that the institutions of the EU are necessarily worthy of support. They haven't even had their accounts signed off for the past 15 years for starters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Martin, this argument is specious. For 40 years, NATO kept the peace in Western Europe - what do you think the Cold War was? Also I think the Balkan countries might argue about European war. It took the Americans to sort that out whilst the EU dithered. I am not anti-Europe. That doesn't mean that the institutions of the EU are necessarily worthy of support. They haven't even had their accounts signed off for the past 15 years for starters! NATO and the EU kept the peace, Geoff. NATO provided the military teeth; the EU helped create trade and interdependence. I'm pleased Cameron has said that any further treaties will automatically be subject to a referendum, and legislation has to be brought in to provide for it. But as I've said before, I think now is the perfect time for a 1975-style "Europe: In Or Out?" plebiscite. That'd create tremendous debate among the public, and maybe even enable politicians to finally point out the many benefits of the EU. And we could settle the argument, one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 NATO and the EU kept the peace, Geoff. NATO provided the military teeth; the EU helped create trade and interdependence. I'm pleased Cameron has said that any further treaties will automatically be subject to a referendum, and legislation has to be brought in to provide for it. But as I've said before, I think now is the perfect time for a 1975-style "Europe: In Or Out?" plebiscite. That'd create tremendous debate among the public, and maybe even enable politicians to finally point out the many benefits of the EU. And we could settle the argument, one way or the other. Cameron's referendum premise is hollow. As I say, the Lisbon const...sorry, treaty, is self-amending. Therefore, there won't be any more treaties to vote on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Cameron's referendum premise is hollow. As I say, the Lisbon const...sorry, treaty, is self-amending. Therefore, there won't be any more treaties to vote on. Which clears the way for the referendum I've proposed instead, doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Which clears the way for the referendum I've proposed instead, doesn't it? Maybe so, but the choice shouldn't necessarily be as stark as this one. The 'in or out' referendum proposal is being proposed by rabid euro sceptics on one hand to get out, and on the other by rabid federalists as justification for full-scale integration. My feeling is that most people lie somewhere in the middle, not just in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_1874 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Cameron's referendum premise is hollow. As I say, the Lisbon const...sorry, treaty, is self-amending. Therefore, there won't be any more treaties to vote on. Exactly so the good people of Europe will no longer get in the way of the never ending cycle of centralisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Sorry to sound like a stuck record, but can someone explain why this treaty apparently takes the wind out of Westminster & Holyrood's sails? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Sorry to sound like a stuck record, but can someone explain why this treaty apparently takes the wind out of Westminster & Holyrood's sails? Briefly, - a greater extension of Qualified Majority Voting into areas which had a veto and - treaties become self-amending, meaning that Lisbon is the last great stage treaty. In other words, the council of ministers can decide between themselves to change things EDIT: It also introduces a President of the same said council of ministers and a Foreign Secretary. What these people do has yet to be defined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Briefly, - a greater extension of Qualified Majority Voting into areas which had a veto and - treaties become self-amending, meaning that Lisbon is the last great stage treaty. In other words, the council of ministers can decide between themselves to change things EDIT: It also introduces a President of the same said council of ministers and a Foreign Secretary. What these people do has yet to be defined. Thanks Geoff. QMV - could be a good thing I suppose, but I can understand the wish for a veto. Re the Council of Ministers. Aren't they representatives of the national governments that make up the EU anyway? In which case they are elected by the people of that nation at a general election. Does QMV enter in here too or are there veto capabilities? Hasn't the position of a President and a foreign minister been devised to stop the current format of rotation of the Presidency so in effect not much change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_1874 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 poor attempt at a haiku,IMO Have to explain to me what one is. Instead of criticising the format of the post why not reply to the points made? Thank you for your attention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Thanks Geoff. QMV - could be a good thing I suppose, but I can understand the wish for a veto. Re the Council of Ministers. Aren't they representatives of the national governments that make up the EU anyway? In which case they are elected by the people of that nation at a general election. Does QMV enter in here too or are there veto capabilities? Hasn't the position of a President and a foreign minister been devised to stop the current format of rotation of the Presidency so in effect not much change? This is the theory but you will the note the Blair debate and whether this President will simply chair the council or be the "face of Europe" as it were. Letting Blair anywhere near this job would be tragic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Tony Blair should be in a cell next to Karadic. War Criminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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