Time for change at Largs.

[Gambo]

Tonight proved what we all knew, Holland could pass the ball better with their heels than we could with the front of the foot, when we tried to play football we were found wanting badly, the only time in the game when we were really in it was when we were in their faces, right in and about them mixing it up.

 

Maybe it is time to realise that that is what we are best at and stop trying to copy the euoropeans.

 

The europeans all learn and are coached basic footballing skills first and are allowed to develop those skills, if they become athletes or ball winners or hard workers after that then thats a bonus, but us, we seem to want to coach into them from an early age how to run, track back, tackle, run, track back, tackle, run, track back, tackle and if you have slight footballing skills then that is a bonus.

 

We won't be able to play like the europeans until we focus on the skills of the players first as oppossed to focusing on if they can run about like a headless chicken for 90mins, some of our ball control tonight was embarresing(just like my spelling:10900:).

 

Time to decide if we want to play the game like the Dutch with the focus on skill first (it will take time as new coaches will need to be brought in throughout the game) or if we want to be an up and at them type of team full of athletes who can sometimes play a bit, what we cannot afford is to try a wee bit of both as we will not work until we can master the skills part first.

 

All imo.

[Gabriel]

Problem is the game lasts 90 minutes and Scotland can only huff and puff for around 65-70 minutes. That still leaves sufficient time for opponents to exploit our lack of fitness.

[JamboJen]

Despite Scotland playing with recognised strikers (even starting in a 4-3-3 on Saturday), we still look more likely team to score in a 90-minute spell.

 

Scotland have a workhorse/carthorse up front who is practically undroppable and relatively talented players able to play on the wings and yet still struggle to put in crosses or create chances from which they look likely to score from.

 

If, by some miracle, we'd actually made it to South Africa we'd in all liklihood bene humiliated. Glorius failure in the qualifiers is probably the better punishment.

[ecosse]

Tonight proved what we all knew, Holland could pass the ball better with their heels than we could with the front of the foot, when we tried to play football we were found wanting badly, the only time in the game when we were really in it was when we were in their faces, right in and about them mixing it up.

 

Maybe it is time to realise that that is what we are best at and stop trying to copy the euoropeans.

 

The europeans all learn and are coached basic footballing skills first and are allowed to develop those skills, if they become athletes or ball winners or hard workers after that then thats a bonus, but us, we seem to want to coach into them from an early age how to run, track back, tackle, run, track back, tackle, run, track back, tackle and if you have slight footballing skills then that is a bonus.

 

We won't be able to play like the europeans until we focus on the skills of the players first as oppossed to focusing on if they can run about like a headless chicken for 90mins, some of our ball control tonight was embarresing(just like my spelling:10900:).

 

Time to decide if we want to play the game like the Dutch with the focus on skill first (it will take time as new coaches will need to be brought in throughout the game) or if we want to be an up and at them type of team full of athletes who can sometimes play a bit, what we cannot afford is to try a wee bit of both as we will not work until we can master the skills part first.

 

All imo.

 

i agree with you about the need to change our training mentality,but to say scotland ran around like headless chickens is way off the mark.for around 20 minutes we ripped the mighty dutch apart ,but couldnt find a finish.it was the latter part of the match when we reverted back to hoofball that showed our lack of guile.

for going on 20 years now the SFA have went on about copying the dutch system but failed to even begin doing so.

[h-e-a-r-t-s]

i agree with you about the need to change our training mentality,but to say scotland ran around like headless chickens is way off the mark.for around 20 minutes we ripped the mighty dutch apart ,but couldnt find a finish.it was the latter part of the match when we reverted back to hoofball that showed our lack of guile.

for going on 20 years now the SFA have went on about copying the dutch system but failed to even begin doing so.

 

I think we performed almost at 100% of our capability tonight and against Macedonia, and in fact for the entire Euro campaign under Walt and Eck, but haven't managed to qualify yet. This is all down to a lack of quality on the park and every man and his dog (other than the SFA apparently) can see it.

 

Charlie Nicholas and which ever De Bouer he was on with tonight were absolutely spot on in their summing up of the state of our game. We ruin the talent that we have buy focussing on building under 10 sides that first learn how to win a game of football rather than how to control the ball and pass it. We have virtually no technical ability and all we're good at is fighting for the badge.

 

I'm a big McFadden fan but let's be honest, the most talented player we have out of a 5 million population couldn't even get a game for Everton. We need to develop more quality.

[ArcticJambo]

It basically comes down to a lack of real quality up front. This has always gnerally been the case, even when we had players like Dalglish & Law.

 

At this level you HAVE to take the few chances you are afforded.

 

Obviously if you ken how to play fitba an aw it certainly helps.

[Dagger Is Back]

I thought we competed well tonight and should be proud of our performance. If only we'd done that throughout and taken our chances!

 

I'm in sports coaching and work with kids between 3 and 9 YO age. Football is one of the sports I coach and I'd have to say that changes are being made in the way that we coach and what we're trying to get the kids to achieve.

 

I agree that it needs to be all about getting used to the ball so that it becomes almost a part of their body if you get my drift. A lot of our focus IS on growing basic skills like dribbling, passing, trapping the ball with both feet and various parts of the body.

 

We still have miles to go but as parents and influencers we have a part to play too. When you take your kids to the football are you one of the ones who scream about getting the ball forward quickly? When you take in your kids school game what do you do when you stand next to the coach who is screaming at the kids and telling them it's ALL about winning.

 

As a parent, when was the last time you took your kid out for a wee kickabout?

 

WE ALL have a part to play.

[lost in leith]

Tonight proved what we all knew, Holland could pass the ball better with their heels than we could with the front of the foot, when we tried to play football we were found wanting badly, the only time in the game when we were really in it was when we were in their faces, right in and about them mixing it up.

 

Maybe it is time to realise that that is what we are best at and stop trying to copy the euoropeans.

 

The europeans all learn and are coached basic footballing skills first and are allowed to develop those skills, if they become athletes or ball winners or hard workers after that then thats a bonus, but us, we seem to want to coach into them from an early age how to run, track back, tackle, run, track back, tackle, run, track back, tackle and if you have slight footballing skills then that is a bonus.

 

We won't be able to play like the europeans until we focus on the skills of the players first as oppossed to focusing on if they can run about like a headless chicken for 90mins, some of our ball control tonight was embarresing(just like my spelling:10900:).

 

Time to decide if we want to play the game like the Dutch with the focus on skill first (it will take time as new coaches will need to be brought in throughout the game) or if we want to be an up and at them type of team full of athletes who can sometimes play a bit, what we cannot afford is to try a wee bit of both as we will not work until we can master the skills part first.

 

All imo.

 

Agree on skill levels. The real eye opener for me was the Estonia game at Tynecastle over 10 years ago when it was clear that their basic technique was better than ours, despite the fact that most of their players were part time.

[red21]

focussing on building under 10 sides that first learn how to win a game of football rather than how to control the ball and pass it

 

Correct. Until we get away from the win at all costs mentality the coaches of our 5 to 10 year old teams have, we'll get no where. Playing organised football at that age should be about having fun, learning skills, being part of a team - in my experience it's far from that in kids football in Scotland. We must lose so many potential great players from the system because they don't instantly show promise or help the coaches to win games.

[Dagger Is Back]

There are a lot of people on here having a go at youth coaches and some of that is deserved.

 

However, there is a real danger in things like school football diappearing in some areas (it's already happening) due to a lack of coaches who are prepared to give up their time to help these kids.

 

As always there are loads of people with things to say about the state of Scottish football but very few who are prepared to step up to the plate, do their bit and be counted.

 

Will share a tale. 2 years ago my wee boy then aged 8 was playing school football. The school had a chance to enter a mini soccer tournament (not a great idea). Now the school ran 2 teams and had a pool of around 18 players who played 7's on a Saturday morning.

 

They had a chance to put 2 teams in to this tourney. What did they do?

 

Well rather than put in two teams they chose to go with one made up of, yes you've guessed it, their 'better' players.

 

They took the 'others' aside and told them sorry but no tourney for you but you can come along and cheer the others on.

 

Yeah I know I've defended coaches earlier on but whilst this kind of attitude prevails we're always going to find it a struggle.

[red21]

When you take in your kids school game what do you do when you stand next to the coach who is screaming at the kids and telling them it's ALL about winning.

 

I know what you're getting at and agree to an extent - but what do you think the reaction would be from a coach if they were questioned about their footballing philosophy by a parent?

[h-e-a-r-t-s]

There are a lot of people on here having a go at youth coaches and some of that is deserved.

 

However, there is a real danger in things like school football diappearing in some areas (it's already happening) due to a lack of coaches who are prepared to give up their time to help these kids.

 

As always there are loads of people with things to say about the state of Scottish football but very few who are prepared to step up to the plate, do their bit and be counted.

 

Will share a tale. 2 years ago my wee boy then aged 8 was playing school football. The school had a chance to enter a mini soccer tournament (not a great idea). Now the school ran 2 teams and had a pool of around 18 players who played 7's on a Saturday morning.

 

They had a chance to put 2 teams in to this tourney. What did they do?

 

Well rather than put in two teams they chose to go with one made up of, yes you've guessed it, their 'better' players.

 

They took the 'others' aside and told them sorry but no tourney for you but you can come along and cheer the others on.

 

Yeah I know I've defended coaches earlier on but whilst this kind of attitude prevails we're always going to find it a struggle.

 

I think you are right about that. Why do you think that is?

 

I was involved in a bit of primary school football coaching a few years ago and I remember being amazed and shocked at the standard of the coaches. In fairness the guy was trying his best but his philosophy was completely backwards, he literally had the kids working on passing the ball by (in his own words) "chipping it" to the team mate, rather than passing it along the deck. It was also clear that the guy had never played football in his life but I guess he was the only Dad who had some sort of desire to be involved.

 

This seems to be a product of the SFA not getting enough coaches involved and not training them how to coach the kids properly.

[Saint Jambo]

This isn't really the SFA's fault. They can set up coaching courses about the need to teach skills before winning. They've moved to smaller sided games at lower age levels. They've done there bit. The 'blazers' have become an easy target without people knowing what they do. These are people who dedicate a large part of their life to the game, often in a voluntary capacity.

 

If the coaches then put the 'big kids' at the back and tell them to boot it up the part rather than try to play it out from the back and risk making a mistake, there isn't a lot anyone at Largs can do. Many youth coaches still feel that they need their team to win for it to be worth it. Some of these coaches are just not very good, but I'd agree with Dagger that there is also a danger of putting too much blame on the coaches. There aren't enough volunteers to coach grass roots football.

 

One of the biggest problems is parents who stand on the sideline screaming bloody murder, demanding that the kids 'get rid', having a go at coaches for not getting results, etc. Many of these parents don't volunteer any help, feeling that they are doing their bit by giving their little johnny transport to the game (you decided to have kids, I'm afraid it is your responsibility to then provide for him!).

[Dagger Is Back]

I know what you're getting at and agree to an extent - but what do you think the reaction would be from a coach if they were questioned about their footballing philosophy by a parent?

 

Have been there so I can tell you the reaction. Went to a game in South Queensferry to watch my sons school playing and the other schools coach was reffing the 1st half.

 

He was a walloper of the highest order. Constantly ripping the 8 year olds to shreds when they lost a tackle, misplaced a pass etc.

 

All of the other parents just looked down at the ground as he tore another strip off them. Game was stopped for a free kick and when he came over I had a wee word with him. True to form he went ballistic offering me the whistle if I could do a better job!

 

It was a nightmare - the devasting affect he was having on those wee souls and no-one was prepared to stand up and get him sorted. Cowards!

 

I do know what you're saying but sometimes things need to be said.

[Dagger Is Back]

I think you are right about that. Why do you think that is?

 

I was involved in a bit of primary school football coaching a few years ago and I remember being amazed and shocked at the standard of the coaches. In fairness the guy was trying his best but his philosophy was completely backwards, he literally had the kids working on passing the ball by (in his own words) "chipping it" to the team mate, rather than passing it along the deck. It was also clear that the guy had never played football in his life but I guess he was the only Dad who had some sort of desire to be involved.

 

This seems to be a product of the SFA not getting enough coaches involved and not training them how to coach the kids properly.

 

There are lots of reasons. Laziness, busy lives, weekends for my own family not others, working, ****ing down rain, abuse from other parents - loads.

 

These guys do give of their time freely and they do work hard and unpaid. It's just that many of them are not qualified and not up to date.

 

If the SFA are serious, they need to invest in grass roots football properly and stop squandering the money they earn.

 

Every school football team should be run by a team who have been trained by the SFA and who should have their own performances assessed regularly to ensure that the overall objectives of the SFA are being aimed for.

[Saint Jambo]

This seems to be a product of the SFA not getting enough coaches involved and not training them how to coach the kids properly.

 

What can the SFA do? They promote coaching and make courses available. At a certain point we have to stop blaming the system and the organisation and start placing responsibility on individuals.

 

A few years ago I volunteered as a youth coach. Each team had to referee half a game and I couldn't persuade one parent to volunteer to do this, which meant rather than being able to play the role of coach, assisting and encouraging the youngsters, I was refereeing and being shouted at by parents for every real and imagined bad decision (often the parents of my own team).

[h-e-a-r-t-s]

This isn't really the SFA's fault. They can set up coaching courses about the need to teach skills before winning. They've moved to smaller sided games at lower age levels. They've done there bit. The 'blazers' have become an easy target without people knowing what they do. These are people who dedicate a large part of their life to the game, often in a voluntary capacity.

 

If the coaches then put the 'big kids' at the back and tell them to boot it up the part rather than try to play it out from the back and risk making a mistake, there isn't a lot anyone at Largs can do. Many youth coaches still feel that they need their team to win for it to be worth it. Some of these coaches are just not very good, but I'd agree with Dagger that there is also a danger of putting too much blame on the coaches. There aren't enough volunteers to coach grass roots football.

 

One of the biggest problems is parents who stand on the sideline screaming bloody murder, demanding that the kids 'get rid', having a go at coaches for not getting results, etc. Many of these parents don't volunteer any help, feeling that they are doing their bit by giving their little johnny transport to the game (you decided to have kids, I'm afraid it is your responsibility to then provide for him!).

 

Isn't it the SFAs job to train and recruit coaches better then to ensure that they don't stick the big kids at the back? Maybe they could teach the coaches how to deal with heckling parents better? Surely this can't be a problem confined to Scotland? Perhaps removing the idea of 'winning games' by simply not playing regulation games until the kids are older and have built up the skills they need to play the game? I don't know what the answer is to be sure, but it's clear that many other countries do so why haven't our lot figured it out?

[Dagger Is Back]

This isn't really the SFA's fault. They can set up coaching courses about the need to teach skills before winning. They've moved to smaller sided games at lower age levels. They've done there bit. The 'blazers' have become an easy target without people knowing what they do. These are people who dedicate a large part of their life to the game, often in a voluntary capacity.

 

If the coaches then put the 'big kids' at the back and tell them to boot it up the part rather than try to play it out from the back and risk making a mistake, there isn't a lot anyone at Largs can do. Many youth coaches still feel that they need their team to win for it to be worth it. Some of these coaches are just not very good, but I'd agree with Dagger that there is also a danger of putting too much blame on the coaches. There aren't enough volunteers to coach grass roots football.

 

One of the biggest problems is parents who stand on the sideline screaming bloody murder, demanding that the kids 'get rid', having a go at coaches for not getting results, etc. Many of these parents don't volunteer any help, feeling that they are doing their bit by giving their little johnny transport to the game (you decided to have kids, I'm afraid it is your responsibility to then provide for him!).

 

The SFA have done a lot you're right and we are moving in the right direction albeit very slowly.

 

When we're ready to take part in a game, one of the games we play is about how many passes you can make as a team without losing the ball. Teaches the kids that it's OK to play the ball sideways, backwards and moving in to space to receive a pass from a teammate - we don't even put the goals out - we don't need them.

 

I'd also agree with your comments re parents. It's a re-education for all of us - parents, coaches, kids.

 

Kinda makes me a little sad when I see the kids teams playing at Tynie and you see the big forward bustling past the wee defender and blootering it past the 3 foot 2 goalie.

[ArcticJambo]

The real problem is probably the weather and the lack of decent playing surfaces. I don't know about you but pretty much every pitch I ever played on was awful for decent passing, or rather receiving a pass. It got worse as the season went on.

 

You can't play skillful football on naff pitches. The govt has to come up with a whole bunch of money for synthetic pitches. Plus, the game has changed, and it'll teach players to defend on their feet.

[red21]

Have been there so I can tell you the reaction. Went to a game in South Queensferry to watch my sons school playing and the other schools coach was reffing the 1st half.

 

He was a walloper of the highest order. Constantly ripping the 8 year olds to shreds when they lost a tackle, misplaced a pass etc.

 

All of the other parents just looked down at the ground as he tore another strip off them. Game was stopped for a free kick and when he came over I had a wee word with him. True to form he went ballistic offering me the whistle if I could do a better job!

 

It was a nightmare - the devasting affect he was having on those wee souls and no-one was prepared to stand up and get him sorted. Cowards!

 

I do know what you're saying but sometimes things need to be sai

d.

 

Fair play mate.

[blairdin]

The problem with Scottish footbll is too many chiefs and not enough indians.

 

We don't need an SPL, SFA and SFL. Football should be run by a single governing body. That way, you can be sure that every league is pulling in the same direction, starting with kids right through to adult football at all levels. At the moment, there are too many associations and too much self interest/preservation.

 

Burley will be the fall guy. Strachan, Souness, whoever takes his place will have to contend with the same problems. Even if they enjoy a purple patch like Walter Smith did, the same old problems will eventually prevail.

 

The problem with the national side isn't with the manager.

[h-e-a-r-t-s]

The SFA have done a lot you're right and we are moving in the right direction albeit very slowly.

 

When we're ready to take part in a game, one of the games we play is about how many passes you can make as a team without losing the ball. Teaches the kids that it's OK to play the ball sideways, backwards and moving in to space to receive a pass from a teammate - we don't even put the goals out - we don't need them.

 

I'd also agree with your comments re parents. It's a re-education for all of us - parents, coaches, kids.

 

Kinda makes me a little sad when I see the kids teams playing at Tynie and you see the big forward bustling past the wee defender and blootering it past the 3 foot 2 goalie.

 

I think this parent issue is a real one and a big one, but surely not a problem confined to Scotland? How have other countries dealt with it? It seems to me that a lot of the problems we have have been resolved by other countries. Isn't it simply a case of studying and learning from them?

[red21]

There are good coaches at kids level football, but what I found is that while many of the coaches were enthusiastic, many did not have any real experience of playing football at a decent level.

 

The basic SFA training programme, in my opinion, doesn't really give people 'real' coaching skills. I've never played organised football. Personally, I didn't feel comfortable about coaching kids based on my experience of only watching games. I was never that keen about taking the SFA course because I didn't feel it would give me enough to confidently teach kids. I have done kids coaching in sports that I have played. Had no problem with doing that because I felt I actually had something worthwhile to pass on - I don't think you can send someone to a SFA course for a few hours and then call them a qualified football coach.

[Dagger Is Back]

I think this parent issue is a real one and a big one, but surely not a problem confined to Scotland? How have other countries dealt with it? It seems to me that a lot of the problems we have have been resolved by other countries. Isn't it simply a case of studying and learning from them?

 

To be honest mate I don't know if it is widespread or not. I haven't coached in other countries so can't say.

 

What isn't up for debate is that our attitude and approach needs to continue to change.

 

I do think better qualified coaching staff with gverning body input is critical. I think these guys could also be charged with the re-education of parents. As a coach, I'd be quite happy to stand and explain to parents that the objective was for the kids to build their skills, have fun, increase their confidence etc.

 

Let's pay the coaches for what they do, lets professionalise them a bit more. They're keen and enthusiastic and most of them only need a little direction. The bampots will soon leave as they realise this isn't for them.

 

Problem with paying them and setting up the infrastructure comes down to money. There are so many fat cats and black holes around that the money needed probably isn't there.

[h-e-a-r-t-s]

To be honest mate I don't know if it is widespread or not. I haven't coached in other countries so can't say.

 

What isn't up for debate is that our attitude and approach needs to continue to change.

 

I do think better qualified coaching staff with gverning body input is critical. I think these guys could also be charged with the re-education of parents. As a coach, I'd be quite happy to stand and explain to parents that the objective was for the kids to build their skills, have fun, increase their confidence etc.

 

Let's pay the coaches for what they do, lets professionalise them a bit more. They're keen and enthusiastic and most of them only need a little direction. The bampots will soon leave as they realise this isn't for them.

 

Problem with paying them and setting up the infrastructure comes down to money. There are so many fat cats and black holes around that the money needed probably isn't there.

 

It really makes you wonder therefore how teams like Slovenia, Denmark, Finland and Croatia can still produce teams that punch well above their weight with I imagine smaller or comparable budgets. We really are in a pretty dire state.

[Harry Palmer]

To be honest mate I don't know if it is widespread or not. I haven't coached in other countries so can't say.

 

What isn't up for debate is that our attitude and approach needs to continue to change.

 

I do think better qualified coaching staff with gverning body input is critical. I think these guys could also be charged with the re-education of parents. As a coach, I'd be quite happy to stand and explain to parents that the objective was for the kids to build their skills, have fun, increase their confidence etc.

 

Let's pay the coaches for what they do, lets professionalise them a bit more. They're keen and enthusiastic and most of them only need a little direction. The bampots will soon leave as they realise this isn't for them.

 

Problem with paying them and setting up the infrastructure comes down to money. There are so many fat cats and black holes around that the money needed probably isn't there.

 

How does one go about becoming a coach/involved in footy? Courses etc?

 

Just curious.

 

(I'm still pi**ed off at the coaches that decided to leave me out for a cup final even though I'd played the whole season in defence far an unbeaten team...cocks. Jobs for the boys that day. )

[Sydney]

As a parent, when was the last time you took your kid out for a wee kickabout?

 

Sunday

[Acey]

It really makes you wonder therefore how teams like...Croatia can still produce teams that punch well above their weight with I imagine smaller or comparable budgets.

 

Offer nationality to as many Brazilians as possible?

[Norfolk and Chance]

Offer nationality to as many Brazilians as possible?

 

They managed to reach the WC semis in '98 without any adopted Brazilian/Croatians, did they not?

[Dagger Is Back]

Sunday

 

Well done - how does it feel to be in a minority group?

[Dagger Is Back]

How does one go about becoming a coach/involved in footy? Courses etc?

 

Just curious.

 

(I'm still pi**ed off at the coaches that decided to leave me out for a cup final even though I'd played the whole season in defence far an unbeaten team...cocks. Jobs for the boys that day. )

 

Depends on what kind of level you want to get involved in. School football? Just chuck your hat in the ring. In fact the same goes for boys club football unless you're talking about one of the more established set ups.

 

Get yourself on to the SFA Early Touches course for a kick off (sorry couldn't resist it!)