Carl Spackler Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Track has been laid in Princes Street. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2354795&id=108054517028 How apt, you can see Edinburgh's previous folly in the background Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 "Officials said options for plugging the expected funding gap included borrowing against future tram and bus profits, leasing rather buying the ?50m tram fleet, and cutting other council spending." Not purchased. If there are options then there is no contract. Re money already spent somebody said earlier that ?177m was away, Projected cost to complete ?600m. Writing off ?177m is no small undertaking but it's better than firing a further ?423m at an floundering project. Of course it will be embarrassing for those few who caused the mess but then the rest of us won't be paying for the project for years to come! You can have a contract to buy but then decide to sell the asset to someone else and lease it back. I haven't seen any contract but I'd be amazed if they hadn't been signed given the lead times we are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Spackler Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 You can have a contract to buy but then decide to sell the asset to someone else and lease it back. I haven't seen any contract but I'd be amazed if they hadn't been signed given the lead times we are talking about. Fair point re the lead times but there is no way it will all be committed. Or at least there shouldn't be. Even if it was the entire ?50m fleet it's still not ?400m! What else could Edinburgh do with ?400m?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Fair point re the lead times but there is no way it will all be committed. Or at least there shouldn't be. Even if it was the entire ?50m fleet it's still not ?400m! What else could Edinburgh do with ?400m?! I don't totally disagree with your position but I think it is too far gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Spackler Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 I don't totally disagree with your position but I think it is too far gone. Nor do I yours. Given the contract disputes and the inevitable delay anyway I think now is a very good time to bring in an independent consultant to assess the state of the play and to make a decision on whether to proceed. Edinburgh is suffering severe disruption and will continue to suffer it for another 5 years (if 2013 is correct). If this created something truly amazing (eg really sorting out Princes Street) then it would be worth it. We had trams before though and they were so wonderful we got rid of them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Can anybody tell me how much actual 'trammy stuff' we have had installed up till now Over ?177 million worth - almost half in other words. Given the contract disputes and the inevitable delay anyway I think now is a very good time to bring in an independent consultant to assess the state of the play and to make a decision on whether to proceed. That's exactly what happened with the parliament building. and the result would be the same - an independant consultant would just add to the cost to confirm (what everyone else knows) that the project is too far down the line to cancel. The discusson to cancel should have been taken years ago, as soon as it was realised money wouldn't be available, to complete the network as planned. Alistair Darling cancelled Leeds propoed tram system because it was unaffordable - someone should have had similar foresight in Edinburgh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairdin Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Should've spent the money dualling the A9. Would have been of much greater benefit to Scotland as a whole! Agreed Maroonaldinho. And there would have been more than enough left over to dual the A1 as far as Berwick, so that at the very least our side of this ridiculous road was up to scratch. I'll ask again...how will all this sacking help the current situation ?.Do you really think it's a good idea to mothball the trams at this stage ? FWIW..I'd throw more money at the project, to get the network & service originally intended , instead of the half-baked system we're going to end up with. Agree with this too. It's gone this far, so it has to be finished. SNP have consistently tried to stop this scheme but have been voted down by the other 3 parties. Unfortunately, it's too late to stop, but if I was in Salmond's shoes I'd be asking Westminster to contribute. The Edinburgh taxpayers shouldn't be responsible for this shortfall. Neither should Transport Scotland as this would be at the expense of the Airdrie to Bathgate line, the electrification of the Queen Street line (planned by 2014, somebody on here mentioned it), road upgrades, things that will benefit far more people. The tram line was an ego trip steamrollered through by the Westminster based political parties with no interest in Scotland as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Spackler Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Over ?177 million worth - almost half in other words. That's exactly what happened with the parliament building. and the result would be the same - an independant consultant would just add to the cost to confirm (what everyone else knows) that the project is too far down the line to cancel. The discusson to cancel should have been taken years ago, as soon as it was realised money wouldn't be available, to complete the network as planned. Alistair Darling cancelled Leeds propoed tram system because it was unaffordable - someone should have had similar foresight in Edinburgh. ?177m is only nearing a third of ?600m not a half. The parliament building and the trams are not comparable. A building of sorts was definitely needed one way or another so extra cost had to be incurred. The Trams are not definitely needed. The cost of a study need not exceed five figures if properly scoped. Of course this being a public project some consultant will fleece a reasonable six figure sum at least but it's still worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 ?177m is only nearing a third of ?600m not a half. The parliament building and the trams are not comparable. A building of sorts was definitely needed one way or another so extra cost had to be incurred. The Trams are not definitely needed. The cost of a study need not exceed five figures if properly scoped. Of course this being a public project some consultant will fleece a reasonable six figure sum at least but it's still worth it. I thought the governments cost was capped at just over ?500 million ? The parliament building and the trams are entirely comparable - as is your reaction to get independant adjudication. Both projects start out with great intentions , and the original briefs get altered and botched so the end product in both cases, looks (and costs) nothing like original plan . You could also argue a scottish government isn't needed and you can certainly argue a new building to house a government wasn't required either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Spackler Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 I thought the governments cost was capped at just over ?500 million ? The parliament building and the trams are entirely comparable - as is your reaction to get independant adjudication. Both projects start out with great intentions , and the original briefs get altered and botched so the end product in both cases, looks (and costs) nothing like original plan . You could also argue a scottish government isn't needed and you can certainly argue a new building to house a government wasn't required either. ?600mm is the projected cost of the trams (and I trust that more than the official figures based on form in projecting them thus far). A review is needed now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 They need to finish the utility diversions and then start laying tracks from the airport in to the city stopping when they reach the budget limit. Easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Spackler Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 They need to finish the utility diversions and then start laying tracks from the airport in to the city stopping when they reach the budget limit. Easy The point of no return is nearing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Sounds like we're all in agreement, FREE BUSES to stimulate the economy, increasing foot traffic to the city centre, yet this white elephant tram thing is still struggling to get on it's feet - can someone, somewhere just admit is was a big mistake and then do the free buses thing? You have to be a big man to accept you made the wrong decision. Think I'm going to have to change my signature, as the centre of Edinburgh is no longer "stunningly beautiful, and utterly captivating":43: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portobellojambo1 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Over ?177 million worth - almost half in other words. That's exactly what happened with the parliament building. and the result would be the same - an independant consultant would just add to the cost to confirm (what everyone else knows) that the project is too far down the line to cancel. The discusson to cancel should have been taken years ago, as soon as it was realised money wouldn't be available, to complete the network as planned. Alistair Darling cancelled Leeds propoed tram system because it was unaffordable - someone should have had similar foresight in Edinburgh. I think the reality is the idea shouldn't have even reached the table originally. Edinburgh, unlike most continental cities which have wide, wide roads, is not designed for an additional tier of traffice (the trams) clogging up the middle of the streets, in certain areas even forcing existing public transport to be diverted (e.g. all buses coming out of the Leith area will now have to go up Easter Road rather than Leith Walk as far as I'm aware). The fact is we don't need trams, with a little bit of thought funds could have been better used to simply upgrade the road surfaces and thereby reduce the number of roads regularly closed through falling apart. In addition, if felt necessary, parts of the city centre could have been converted into car free areas, meaning people would have to use the existing public services within the city centre zone. Another expensive tier of transport is not gong to cure Edinburgh's traffic problems, it will simply add to them, and cost us, the taxpayers, a fortune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambopompey Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 not sure of the costs, but would not re-opening redundant train lines been looked at first, do this with little disruption then getting folk using public transport and then look at the trams to upgrade more. most folk know that the problem with Edinburgh is getting from the outer towns/villages to the city centre easily, a few train services/stations from modlothian and east lothian would ease travel, the same with sorting out some services from west lothian. or is this a sensible idea that would get thrown out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Dover Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 not sure of the costs, but would not re-opening redundant train lines been looked at first, do this with little disruption then getting folk using public transport and then look at the trams to upgrade more. most folk know that the problem with Edinburgh is getting from the outer towns/villages to the city centre easily, a few train services/stations from modlothian and east lothian would ease travel, the same with sorting out some services from west lothian.or is this a sensible idea that would get thrown out I don't think the tram was ever really part of a 'joined up' transport plan. It was just something that a bunch of councillors thought would look nice in the Scotsman calendar and on postcards, without any real conception of the upheaval vs ultimate usefulness of the project Low carbon emission buses or ideally electric ones ( are they even feasible yet ? ) would have been more practical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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