Tram line - years late, millions over budget

[Coco]

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Capital-tram-crisis-as-new.5554072.jp

 

Anyone any information on how many Council/TIE officials are going to be sacked for this waste of our money?

 

Who wants to volunteer some bus services/other Council services which should be cut to pay for this ludicrous scheme?

[joe.gausden]

I think one of the questions that needs answered is;

Did anyone from the council ever think that this would ever be on time, budget, or indeed if the council tax payers of Edinburgh actually wanted it?

 

Another waste of public money that we'll be paying for for years to come, not to mention the state of the roads.

[felix]

Anyone any information on how many Council/TIE officials are going to be sacked for this waste of our money?

 

How is sacking councillors or TIE officials going to help the current situation ?

[Coco]

How is sacking councillors or TIE officials going to help the current situation ?

 

Did Fred Goodwin get forced out of RBS?

 

TIE should be disbanded. And many senior officials in the transport part of Edinburgh Council should be sacked to take responsibility for their errors.

[Nelly Terraces]

The whole thing should be haulted asap. OK, millions will be lost due to this farce already, but at least no more will go down the toilet, not to mention the damage it's done to central Edinburgh's economy. I could tell you stories about this project that would make yer toes curl. It's pretty disgusting really.

[Craig_]

The Labour/Tory/Lib Dem bloc which forced this through should hang their heads in shame!

[Nelly Terraces]

You just know as well that they will cut bus routes and services (i.e. bet the bus to airport goes), to try justify this disgrace. Can see it now, that you'll not be able to get a bus across the city from South/North, but have to get a bus, then onto a fecking tram, then back on a bus again. Brutal.

[Coco]

You just know as well that they will cut bus routes and services (i.e. bet the bus to airport goes), to try justify this disgrace. Can see it now, that you'll not be able to get a bus across the city from South/North, but have to get a bus, then onto a fecking tram, then back on a bus again. Brutal.

 

Yes, the plan will be to prioritise the tram in many ways - junctions, lights, road space in an effort to create congestion/force people into using the tram - and when the merger with Lothian Buses happens there will be efforts to force the sort of 'integration' that you mention - on a bus, on a tram, on a bus etc. Pay at least twice too.

[The Mighty Thor]

So it's just the same criminal waste of public dough it was yesterday then?

 

The big thing that makes me laugh is that a major capital investment project involving ?750 million has been put into the hands of local councillors. Have you ever met a local councillor? I wouldn't trust the majority of them with a tenner and a message line.

 

The benefits to Edinburgh were always tenuous at best, the damage to the city will be the real legacy.

[Coco]

So it's just the same criminal waste of public dough it was yesterday then?

 

The big thing that makes me laugh is that a major capital investment project involving ?750 million has been put into the hands of local councillors. Have you ever met a local councillor? I wouldn't trust the majority of them with a tenner and a message line.

 

The benefits to Edinburgh were always tenuous at best, the damage to the city will be the real legacy.

 

The truth is that the idiot Councillors are useful patsies for the Council officers who actually control things.

[Nelly Terraces]

Yes, the plan will be to prioritise the tram in many ways - junctions, lights, road space in an effort to create congestion/force people into using the tram - and when the merger with Lothian Buses happens there will be efforts to force the sort of 'integration' that you mention - on a bus, on a tram, on a bus etc. Pay at least twice too.

 

Spot on. The fares will be frightening as well.

[Grendel]

IMO the Trams were never a goer.

 

God only knows why oh why did those in charge think that they were.

 

Saying that, God is probably sitting shaking his head and saying why?

 

I may be mad but I still think this is pay back for the people of Edinburgh not agreeing to congestion charges.

[Incompetnce]

You just know as well that they will cut bus routes and services (i.e. bet the bus to airport goes), to try justify this disgrace. Can see it now, that you'll not be able to get a bus across the city from South/North, but have to get a bus, then onto a fecking tram, then back on a bus again. Brutal.

 

I really hope the bus doesn't go otherwise it's thirty quid for me to get a taxi home >.<

[Miller Jambo 60]

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Capital-tram-crisis-as-new.5554072.jp

 

Anyone any information on how many Council/TIE officials are going to be sacked for this waste of our money?

 

Who wants to volunteer some bus services/other Council services which should be cut to pay for this ludicrous scheme?

 

Biggest joke since Hibernian FC started.

[Boris]

Perhaps we should wait and see once the work is finished?

 

My reading of this latest affair seems to me that it is the contractors who are taking the wee, not TIE so I'm not really sure what TIE can do.

[Carl Spackler]

The whole thing should be haulted asap. OK, millions will be lost due to this farce already, but at least no more will go down the toilet, not to mention the damage it's done to central Edinburgh's economy. I could tell you stories about this project that would make yer toes curl. It's pretty disgusting really.

 

Agreed. The place is in turmoil (now till 2013?) and huge amounts of money is being wasted. If it was for something spectacular then it would be worth it. It's not, it's for some trams.

 

Finish renewing the services though and that should help minimise smaller disruptions for a while. That is the silver lining...just not the tram lining.

[Coco]

Perhaps we should wait and see once the work is finished?

 

My reading of this latest affair seems to me that it is the contractors who are taking the wee, not TIE so I'm not really sure what TIE can do.

 

It should be cancelled, TIE employees all sacked, Council senior management sacked (and they and the Councillors surcharged for all cost overruns).

 

Save a hundred million pounds rather than wasting another few hundred million pounds.

[Boris]

It should be cancelled, TIE employees all sacked, Council senior management sacked (and they and the Councillors surcharged for all cost overruns).

 

Save a hundred million pounds rather than wasting another few hundred million pounds.

 

I disagree.

 

I think the trams will be good and will benefit the City in the long term.

 

I do think that there needs to be some sort of review of the tendering and work process as it does seem a shambles.

 

Still, that's what happens when you privatise public works....

[Craig_]

Should've spent the money dualling the A9. Would have been of much greater benefit to Scotland as a whole!

[felix]

It should be cancelled, TIE employees all sacked, Council senior management sacked (and they and the Councillors surcharged for all cost overruns).

 

Save a hundred million pounds rather than wasting another few hundred million pounds.

 

I'll ask again...how will all this sacking help the current situation ?.

Do you really think it's a good idea to mothball the trams at this stage ?

 

FWIW..I'd throw more money at the project, to get the network & service originally intended , instead of the half-baked system we're going to end up with.

[Miller Jambo 60]

I disagree.

 

I think the trams will be good and will benefit the City in the long term.

 

I do think that there needs to be some sort of review of the tendering and work process as it does seem a shambles.

 

Still, that's what happens when you privatise public works....

 

Who wants to down to LEITH.

Waste of money.

31 bus up the town

[bigwull22]

Should've spent the money dualling the A9. Would have been of much greater benefit to Scotland as a whole!

 

A1 might have been better for Edinburgh, or electrify the Edin-Glas rail line

[Coco]

I'll ask again...how will all this sacking help the current situation ?.

Do you really think it'sa good idea to mothball the trams at this stage ?

 

FWIW..I'd throw more money at the project, to get the network & service originally intended , instead of the half-bahked system we're going to end up with.

 

Yes, I would cancel immediately and place the surcharges for cancellation costs/cost overruns on TIE management/Edinburgh Council executives. None of these people would be required for that. Closing TIE and the sackings would encourage les autres for the future - no more wasting of the public's money.

 

Mothball the project with the plans in the National Library. Some utilities upgrades have been made which might limit the number of roadworks in the future. If at some point in the future Edinburgh needs a tram line to increase congestion and waste money - the plans can be dusted off. We don't need one at the moment.

 

Given that the current line would either cost at least ?600m (or have sections scrapped) and with it being years late it will cost way more than that - and the current line project was only 1/2 of the original plan - where from the ?200m per year Council Tax do you intend to find the ?600m plus to build the original planned lines?

[Cabbie754]

The Labour/Tory/Lib Dem bloc which forced this through should hang their heads in shame!

 

Correct, both at the council and the parliament Tory, Labour, Lib Dems and don't forget the Greens. One political party did oppose the trams and they told you this might happen but nobody listened.

[N User]

Thosw who voted against stopping the trams (when the SNP came to power) should be named and shamed.

Likewise those who pushed this scheme through in the first place (before the SNP tried to stop it) should also be named and shamed.

 

It would help people know who not to vote for in the future.

[felix]

Yes, I would cancel immediately and place the surcharges for cancellation costs/cost overruns on TIE management/Edinburgh Council executives. None of these people would be required for that. Closing TIE and the sackings would encourage les autres for the future - no more wasting of the public's money.

 

Mothball the project with the plans in the National Library. Some utilities upgrades have been made which might limit the number of roadworks in the future. If at some point in the future Edinburgh needs a tram line to increase congestion and waste money - the plans can be dusted off. We don't need one at the moment.

 

Given that the current line would either cost at least ?600m (or have sections scrapped) and with it being years late it will cost way more than that - and the current line project was only 1/2 of the original plan - where from the ?200m per year Council Tax do you intend to find the ?600m plus to build the original planned lines?

 

You don't want to waste public money - but you'd throw away ?177 million already invested.

Why not suppliment it rather than flush that sum down the drain . nb that figure doesn't include huge costs for putting-right the massive infrastructure investment already undertaken.

 

Your logic that sacking people would discourage others in future would only ensure councils were scared to do anything in future and to answer your final point...I'd take the ?600 million to finish the trams properly, from the ?5.8 billion planned on Scotland's nuclear defence budget.

[The Mighty Thor]

You don't want to waste public money - but you'd throw away ?177 million already invested.

Why not suppliment it rather than flush that sum down the drain . nb that figure doesn't include huge costs for putting-right the massive infrastructure investment already undertaken.

 

Your logic that sacking people would discourage others in future would only ensure councils were scared to do anything in future and to answer your final point...I'd take the ?600 million to finish the trams properly, from the ?5.8 billion planned on Scotland's nuclear defence budget.

 

An investment usually provides a return.

 

The whole project has been poorly researched, poorly planned and monumentally poorly executed.

 

Yes there ought to be sackings and indeed criminal charges brought against those responsible for gross negligence in the planning, contracting and executing of the project which will end up eating through ?750 million minimum of public money and never deliver what it was intended to. Now in any mans language that is a waste of time effort and money and the whole thing should be scrapped immediately.

 

The issue is not one of scaring or preventing councils from carrying out capital projects it ought to be one of ensuring councils have, or outsource, the expertise to manage such projects. Edinburgh Council do not have it. They never have. Edinburgh council is not a hot bed of commercially astute talent.

 

There has to be a transparent system of accountability for spunking huge amounts of dough from the public purse.

[A Boy Named Crow]

Should've spent the money dualling the A9. Would have been of much greater benefit to Scotland as a whole!

 

This is true. The behaviour of Labour, the Conservatives and Lib Dems in forcing through the trams at the expense of upgrading one of Scotland's most infamous accident black spots was disgusting. What's worse is that it was all just playground politics - the SNP wanted the A9 upgrade so it wasn't going to happen. Sad, pathetic politics. I can't believe people will still support these children in suits!

[felix]

An investment usually provides a return.

 

The whole project has been poorly researched, poorly planned and monumentally poorly executed.

 

Yes there ought to be sackings and indeed criminal charges brought against those responsible for gross negligence in the planning, contracting and executing of the project which will end up eating through ?750 million minimum of public money and never deliver what it was intended to. Now in any mans language that is a waste of time effort and money and the whole thing should be scrapped immediately.

 

The issue is not one of scaring or preventing councils from carrying out capital projects it ought to be one of ensuring councils have, or outsource, the expertise to manage such projects. Edinburgh Council do not have it. They never have. Edinburgh council is not a hot bed of commercially astute talent.

 

There has to be a transparent system of accountability for spunking huge amounts of dough from the public purse.

 

A return from an investment project usually comes about; once the project is finished.

 

Criminal charges for what ?

[The Mighty Thor]

A return from an investment project usually comes about; once the project is finished.

 

Criminal charges for what ?

 

Therefore we are quite possibly unlikely to ever see any return on our 'investment'?

 

criminal charges relating to the procurement, management and execution of this;

 

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/late...new.5554072.jp

[Frankenstein Jambo.]

The Impact that these trams are having on our tourist industry is also phenominal. I work as a tourist guide on the royal mile and I can tell you, after the festival we will see at least a 20% dip in touists from last year. We blame it on the unsightly work currently going on.

[felix]

Therefore we are quite possibly unlikely to ever see any return on our 'investment'?

 

criminal charges relating to the procurement, management and execution of this;

 

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/late...new.5554072.jp

 

Can't open the link but seems to be the same one as the OP's in which case the story relates to further delay & legal action taken BY ECC against contractors.

 

Reaction from some has been to sack councillors and sack members of TIE. The argument over whether the trams should ever have gone ahead is a separate issue - sacking all and sundry at this stage isn't going to get anywhere and besides, how would criminal charges against those involved work ?

Surely this is a matter for civil law and breach of contract therefore gross negligence is the best you'd hope for - unless of course you know of a crime that's been committed ?

[The Mighty Thor]

Can't open the link but seems to be the same one as the OP's in which case the story relates to further delay & legal action taken BY ECC against contractors.

 

Reaction from some has been to sack councillors and sack members of TIE. The argument over whether the trams should ever have gone ahead is a separate issue - sacking all and sundry at this stage isn't going to get anywhere and besides, how would criminal charges against those involved work ?

Surely this is a matter for civil law and breach of contract therefore gross negligence is the best you'd hope for - unless of course you know of a crime that's been committed ?

I have no idea of other crimes that may or may not have been committed other than the gross (surely the only time that could be used as an understatement) negligence of ECC and it's holding company TIE.

[djf]

Just remember those who forced them through at the next elections.

 

Replacing an already superb bus service using the tax money of people within Edinburgh who pay ?4.50 for a return journey every morning. Ridiculous.

[portobellojambo1]

Should've spent the money dualling the A9. Would have been of much greater benefit to Scotland as a whole!

 

While the A9 could do with upgrading I think the road that really needs looked at is the A1, the road leading into Scotland. That becomes a nightmare shortly after departing Newcastle heading North, whereas it should be motorway, or dual carriage at least, all the way up to Edinburgh (and costs could have been shared obviously)

 

Cannot really say I'm at all surprised at these delays, in fact cannot really say I'm surprised at anything involving Edinburgh council. Who in their right mind would put that much money into the hands of a (poor) selection of punters from the likes of Craigmillar, Pilton, Niddrie, Drylaw, Wester Hailes and leave it to them to utilise it correctly.

 

We didn't need trams when they started this escapade, we still don't need them.

[mac]

Never been a fan of the trams, but given the money spent, or are going to spend, let's make the buses free! Reduces congestion, parking and increases travel to the city centre - I'm sure that would actually work out cheaper than this white elephant:disappointed:

[Shaggy2]

Free buses wouldn't actually cost that much in comparison to this project when you consider that a councillor who was against trams told me at the start of the project that the cost could pay every journey taken by TAXI for 12 years, going by the previous year's figures. How long could ?500m subsidise bus travel? A long time I'd suggest.

 

Apart from possibly rush hour Friday afternoon Edinburgh never had a serious traffic problem anyway. Now we'll have regular snarl ups for the next four years and God knows what it'll be like even when trams are running given the lack of width on our roads etc.

 

Copymade on West Maitland Street are offering "FREE PRINTING FOR ALL WHEN TRAMS START RUNNING!" They have as much faith in this project as (most of) the rest of us.

[davemclaren]

It's too late to stop so they just need to get on with it. Looking forward to using them but I'm glad I'm not an Edinburgh council tax payer.

[Carl Spackler]

It's too late to stop so they just need to get on with it. Looking forward to using them but I'm glad I'm not an Edinburgh council tax payer.

Too late? How?

[Cabbie754]

It's too late to stop so they just need to get on with it. Looking forward to using them but I'm glad I'm not an Edinburgh council tax payer.

 

A few months ago the SNP council group proposed a motion to scrap the project and return what money was left to the government. Not surprisingly it was defeated. It's still not too late just to pack the whole scheme in, fill up the holes and just admit that the business case never added up.

 

The SNP in both Holyrood and the City Chambers have consistently voted against the tram scheme and warned the the business case didn't add up and that there would be no more money available in the event of overspends.

 

The whole thing is a farce so just remember who to blame and not to blame.

[Ben Dover]

Can anybody tell me how much actual 'trammy stuff' we have had installed up till now. If we've just been digging up the roads to divert services like Water and gas etc ( no idea about that either ) then maybe we should call a halt to it.

[red21]

The Impact that these trams are having on our tourist industry is also phenominal. I work as a tourist guide on the royal mile and I can tell you, after the festival we will see at least a 20% dip in touists from last year. We blame it on the unsightly work currently going on.

 

Interesting to hear a real estimate of what the effect is on tourism - no dobt the 'offical' figures will put a different spin on things and attempt to tell us that there's nothing to worry about.

 

If the city has another three/four years of work to put up with how many tourists will we actually have left by the time the trams are running?

[davemclaren]

Too late? How?

 

Costs already sunk, political reasons, contracts already signed where there are penalties, cost of cleaning up....

[Carl Spackler]

Can anybody tell me how much actual 'trammy stuff' we have had installed up till now. If we've just been digging up the roads to divert services like Water and gas etc ( no idea about that either ) then maybe we should call a halt to it.

 

Well there's no tracks yet! Therefore, none.

[davemclaren]

Well there's no tracks yet! Therefore, none.

 

There are tracks in Princes Street. They will likely have all been ordered along with the trams so the committed spend will be huge.

[Carl Spackler]

Costs already sunk, political reasons, contracts already signed where there are penalties, cost of cleaning up....

 

Money that has gone has gone. Renewing many of the services should have some future benefit for the city so not everything is lost there.

 

Political reasons can away and sh^%e!

 

Contract penalties will surely be insignificant compared to monies still required to complete.

 

Cleaning up will be needed anyway. Negligible cost in the grand scheme anyway. The cost of putting the war memorial back will also need to be met of course.

 

Where has actual track been laid? Not too late to stop.

[davemclaren]

Money that has gone has gone. Renewing many of the services should have some future benefit for the city so not everything is lost there.

 

Political reasons can away and sh^%e!

 

Contract penalties will surely be insignificant compared to monies still required to complete.

 

Cleaning up will be needed anyway. Negligible cost in the grand scheme anyway. The cost of putting the war memorial back will also need to be met of course.

 

Where has actual track been laid? Not too late to stop.

 

Track has been laid in Princes Street. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2354795&id=108054517028

 

It is too late as any savings wouldn't justify throwing away the investment to date and getting nothing out of it.

[Carl Spackler]

There are tracks in Princes Street. They will likely have all been ordered along with the trams so the committed spend will be huge.

 

Okay, a few hundred feet relative to several miles. The actual trams themselves will cost what? A few million? Buttons for this scheme. Build an Edinburgh folly museum and put them in there.

[davemclaren]

Okay, a few hundred feet relative to several miles. The actual trams themselves will cost what? A few million? Buttons for this scheme. Build an Edinburgh folly museum and put them in there.

 

I think the trams would cost more than just a few millions.

[Carl Spackler]

I think the trams would cost more than just a few millions.

"Officials said options for plugging the expected funding gap included borrowing against future tram and bus profits, leasing rather buying the ?50m tram fleet, and cutting other council spending."

 

Not purchased. If there are options then there is no contract.

 

Re money already spent somebody said earlier that ?177m was away, Projected cost to complete ?600m. Writing off ?177m is no small undertaking but it's better than firing a further ?423m at an floundering project. Of course it will be embarrassing for those few who caused the mess but then the rest of us won't be paying for the project for years to come!