Hearts and the Scottish Cup

[VeraNT]

It always stuns me how Hearts have NOT been more successful in the Scottish Cup. For a team who have consistently finished in the top 5 or 6 of the league, how come we have such a low return on Scottish Cup wins? Would love to hear opinions on this.

 

The OF have such a ****ing great SC record. Given that they are always involved in chasing the league title and often involved in Europe, you would expect them to take their eye off the SC as a key competition. That would leave the likes of us a better chance to establish ourselves with a good SC winners record. It is like Hearts are not really a cup team.

 

You only have to win five games to win the bloody thing.

 

The financial advantages of focusing very seriously on the SC are big. You pick up gate money, TV money and sponsorship from the cup run. If you win it on that last day of the season, the timing is perfect to encourage season ticket sales. It guarantees a European place. You build a feel good factor with the big dormant support that has to result in bigger gates and lots more Hearts merchandise sales.

 

Getting back to the "five games and its won" point. You need to background staff to completely focus on every game and know whats needed to win it. There should be total commitment to this. There should be a major bonus system for everyone involved that signals how important the trophy is for the club. In those five games we have a chance of playing much weaker opposition and less well supported teams. Getting into the semi or final and drawing the OF should not be intimidating as we get the same ticket split as them.

 

I just don't get it, how we have ****ed up so often, in a competition that is definitely easier to win and has so many advantages for the club.

 

Hearts should get in Accenture, or some other top managing consulting agency to make them understand the business factors involved in this. It looks to me like relatively low lieing fruit for happiness and success at Tynecastle.

[letsalllaughathobos]

the GFA wont let us win it.

[Buffalo Bill]

It always stuns me how Hearts have NOT been more successful in the Scottish Cup. For a team who have consistently finished in the top 5 or 6 of the league, how come we have such a low return on Scottish Cup wins? Would love to hear opinions on this.

 

The OF have such a ****ing great SC record. Given that they are always involved in chasing the league title and often involved in Europe, you would expect them to take their eye off the SC as a key competition. That would leave the likes of us a better chance to establish ourselves with a good SC winners record. It is like Hearts are not really a cup team.

 

You only have to win five games to win the bloody thing.

 

The financial advantages of focusing very seriously on the SC are big. You pick up gate money, TV money and sponsorship from the cup run. If you win it on that last day of the season, the timing is perfect to encourage season ticket sales. It guarantees a European place. You build a feel good factor with the big dormant support that has to result in bigger gates and lots more Hearts merchandise sales.

 

Getting back to the "five games and its won" point. You need to background staff to completely focus on every game and know whats needed to win it. There should be total commitment to this. There should be a major bonus system for everyone involved that signals how important the trophy is for the club. In those five games we have a chance of playing much weaker opposition and less well supported teams. Getting into the semi or final and drawing the OF should not be intimidating as we get the same ticket split as them.

 

I just don't get it, how we have ****ed up so often, in a competition that is definitely easier to win and has so many advantages for the club.

 

Hearts should get in Accenture, or some other top managing consulting agency to make them understand the business factors involved in this. It looks to me like relatively low lieing fruit for happiness and success at Tynecastle.

 

 

Agree with all of this, and ditto for the diddy cup. We should be owning that. I've always believed that Hearts should be systematically and zealously attacking both cup competitions.

 

The Scottish Cup exit has perpetually been the most painful weekend of the season for me. There's been a lot of heartache between those two bridges.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Charlie-Brown]

Agree with all of this, and ditto for the diddy cup. We should be owning that. I've always believed that Hearts should be systematically and zealously attacking both cup competitions.

 

The Scottish Cup exit has perpetually been the most painful weekend of the season for me. There's been a lot of heartache between those two bridges.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

Vera / BB ... if you include the Roseburn bridge and the bridge over the railway at slateford road then gods own country is bound within 4 railway bridges not just 2 (i know that the roseburn bridge is now technically a road bridge but it wasn't originally)

[Debut 4]

Agree with all of this, and ditto for the diddy cup. We should be owning that. I've always believed that Hearts should be systematically and zealously attacking both cup competitions.

 

The Scottish Cup exit has perpetually been the most painful weekend of the season for me. There's been a lot of heartache between those two bridges.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

Agree. Got to admit i was at a real low after the Falkirk defeat. I really want to see us win trophies more often.

 

I started a thread last week and was mocked by some for suggesting "it was another season without a trophy". But in 1962 Hearts fans probably thought we`d just keep on collecting trophy after trophy but as we all know it was 36 years until our next and that one in 1962 was the 7th in 8 years.

 

The club should ALWAYS treat the cups as a priority along with finishing high in the league. Apart from a few real genuinely good seasons in the league we haven`t quite went that final yard, but we should keep trying though. But when the trend is that the OF have won the league for the last 25 years i think it should be a main aim for Hearts to collect one of the cups as a season target. I`m greedy and want it all. I love a great league season combined with a cup win and we`ve done that twice in recent years. But when the league looks out of reach and its a european place battle, the Cup should have even more focus put on it.

 

If JKB is still going in 10, 20 years time i wonder if the same fans who mocked me will be saying "there`s always next year"?.

[Charlie-Brown]

You usually need a wee bit luck or good fortune to go all the way in the cups, that and playing well at hampden in the latter stages, how many times have we let ourselves down with poor Hampden performances?

[Hearts Heritage]

Hearts were twice 'robbed' in semi finals vs the Old Firm in the 1930s by very contentious refereeing decisions.

 

They should have one it in 1895 and thus becoming the first team to do the double losing to St Bernards in the SF. Similarly in 1913 losing to Falkirk at the SF stage was a pretty awful defeat.

And we've not mentioned Airdrie...

[Buffalo Bill]

You usually need a wee bit luck or good fortune to go all the way in the cups, that and playing well at hampden in the latter stages, how many times have we let ourselves down with poor Hampden performances?

 

You're bang on the money there, Charles.

 

Flip a coin five times and you'll rarely get five straight tails.

 

You need luck: but you also need attitude. For some reason, EVERY cup draw for us seems slippery. In fact, our record since 1998, minus 2006 is pretty awful; and double that for the League Cup.

 

As a club, we need some sort of written constitution that DEMANDS all out tilts at the cups.

 

Who wouldn't be happy with 3rd in the league and a Scottish or League Cup victory every two or three years?

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[VeraNT]

You usually need a wee bit luck or good fortune to go all the way in the cups, that and playing well at hampden in the latter stages, how many times have we let ourselves down with poor Hampden performances?

 

You make your own luck. The problem with the cup is attitude and lack of focus. Someone at the club must realise that the cups, which are well seperated as competitions in the season should be priority, for all the reasons that my smart-little-self listed. It's like we treat every game like any other - the difference in the cup is if you lose its finished for another year.

 

Running two or three cup victories together in five or six years, with good runs in the other years, would build a reputation as a "cup team". That would make our luck and increase expectations that other teams would slip up against us.

 

But for decades its like we stumble into every cup round with no perspective on the importance to these competitions for success at Tynecastle.

 

They should really focus on every cup game and prepare accordingly.

 

For a team in the situation of Hearts - faced with the financial clout of the OF - the two Scottish cups are a tactical way to suceed and build the club.

 

Sometimes I fell our Mickey Mouse cluc is run by, ehhhhhh, Minnie Mouse.

[Stevenauskas]

Come On give the jambos your support

We Can WIN the Scottish Cup

Yes give tham the suppert and they will lift the Cup.

Come on the Jambos

[Boaby Ewing]

It always stuns me how Hearts have NOT been more successful in the Scottish Cup. For a team who have consistently finished in the top 5 or 6 of the league, how come we have such a low return on Scottish Cup wins? Would love to hear opinions on this.

 

The OF have such a ****ing great SC record. Given that they are always involved in chasing the league title and often involved in Europe, you would expect them to take their eye off the SC as a key competition. That would leave the likes of us a better chance to establish ourselves with a good SC winners record. It is like Hearts are not really a cup team.

 

You only have to win five games to win the bloody thing.

 

The financial advantages of focusing very seriously on the SC are big. You pick up gate money, TV money and sponsorship from the cup run. If you win it on that last day of the season, the timing is perfect to encourage season ticket sales. It guarantees a European place. You build a feel good factor with the big dormant support that has to result in bigger gates and lots more Hearts merchandise sales.

 

Getting back to the "five games and its won" point. You need to background staff to completely focus on every game and know whats needed to win it. There should be total commitment to this. There should be a major bonus system for everyone involved that signals how important the trophy is for the club. In those five games we have a chance of playing much weaker opposition and less well supported teams. Getting into the semi or final and drawing the OF should not be intimidating as we get the same ticket split as them.

 

I just don't get it, how we have ****ed up so often, in a competition that is definitely easier to win and has so many advantages for the club.

 

Hearts should get in Accenture, or some other top managing consulting agency to make them understand the business factors involved in this. It looks to me like relatively low lieing fruit for happiness and success at Tynecastle.

 

I was with you up until the bit in bold.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Winning the cup needs a bit of luck, some half decent players and some timely home games from the draw. Throw in some dubious decisions from the officials and you've got a very good recipe for winning it more than not.

[CF11JamTart]

Despite 98 and 06, the Scottish Cup has consistently felt like a tale of woe.

 

In my football supporting lifetime (84 onwards), off the top of my head, we have had:

 

Two winning finals - both tight.

Two heavy defeats in finals.

 

Hence, four winning semis... but it is the semi-defeats that have really got me.

 

St Mirren - we were a better team than them at the time (and still are)

Celtic - one-nil up with 2mins left on the clock - what could possibly go wrong?

Rangers - one-nil up and doing OK...

Airdrie - two defeats, both horrible.

 

So, looking back, I'm bemused that we didn't do better than we have done.

 

And that is before one even considers the innumerable defeats in the 3rd or 4th round to teams like Motherwell, Dunfermline and now Falkirk.

 

Apologies for being so miserable... I AM grateful for 98 and 06!

[droid]

You make your own luck. The problem with the cup is attitude and lack of focus. Someone at the club must realise that the cups, which are well seperated as competitions in the season should be priority, for all the reasons that my smart-little-self listed. It's like we treat every game like any other - the difference in the cup is if you lose its finished for another year.

 

Running two or three cup victories together in five or six years, with good runs in the other years, would build a reputation as a "cup team". That would make our luck and increase expectations that other teams would slip up against us.

 

But for decades its like we stumble into every cup round with no perspective on the importance to these competitions for success at Tynecastle.

 

They should really focus on every cup game and prepare accordingly.

 

For a team in the situation of Hearts - faced with the financial clout of the OF - the two Scottish cups are a tactical way to suceed and build the club.

 

Sometimes I fell our Mickey Mouse cluc is run by, ehhhhhh, Minnie Mouse.

 

whilst i like the thinking behind your theory...

the bee all and end all is the league otherwise we end up in the lower divisions and then it wouldnt matter a toss if were known as "cup team"

[shaun.lawson]

Our Scottish Cup record isn't great, but just about tolerable I suppose. What's odd is we used to rack up constant semi-finals in the competition - but since getting the monkey off our back, have become a lot more hit and miss. We went 20 years without losing a single Scottish Cup tie at Tynie between 1982 and 2002; but have already lost twice at home since.

 

I guess the sorry record of our rivals often obscures how average our own one is. Though that's as nothing when compared with how we've done in the League Cup: one measly final in what will now be 48 years is a record of breathtaking incompetence, in a competition which presents a wonderful opportunity to close the silverware gap on Aberdeen and ultimately overtake them.

 

One point to the OP though. However much economics are now pulling the OF back towards us, since 1997, Hearts are the only club outwith the uglies to have won the Big Cup. Such are the advantages the big two enjoy, it is far, far more difficult to win Cups nowadays - with history telling us that only truly outstanding Hearts sides manage it; and that we have to spend way beyond our means in order to do so.

[VeraNT]

I was with you up until the bit in bold.

 

Copain Du Noir - do you know the tour of California is underway in attrocious weather conditions with lots of the TdeF stars taking part.

 

Apart from that - I know the last line is lame (you are not allowed to say that in California). OK, the last line is lower limbs physically challenged or impaired. But, its the kind of low life business approach that some numpty on the Hearts board might just follow.

[VeraNT]

whilst i like the thinking behind your theory...

the bee all and end all is the league otherwise we end up in the lower divisions and then it wouldnt matter a toss if were known as "cup team"

 

ok - so how much impact do you think really focusing on 10 cup games would have on a ~40 game league season? not a lot mate. sometimes it worries me that the clowns that run Hearts have the same attitude as yourself. Phhhhh glad we got knocked out the cup by Falkirk at home, that will potentially give us three games less to play and we can concentrate on the league. What an attitude.

[VeraNT]

Our Scottish Cup record isn't great, but just about tolerable I suppose. What's odd is we used to rack up constant semi-finals in the competition - but since getting the monkey off our back, have become a lot more hit and miss. We went 20 years without losing a single Scottish Cup tie at Tynie between 1982 and 2002; but have already lost twice at home since.

 

I guess the sorry record of our rivals often obscures how average our own one is. Though that's as nothing when compared with how we've done in the League Cup: one measly final in what will now be 48 years is a record of breathtaking incompetence, in a competition which presents a wonderful opportunity to close the silverware gap on Aberdeen and ultimately overtake them.

 

One point to the OP though. However much economics are now pulling the OF back towards us, since 1997, Hearts are the only club outwith the uglies to have won the Big Cup. Such are the advantages the big two enjoy, it is far, far more difficult to win Cups nowadays - with history telling us that only truly outstanding Hearts sides manage it; and that we have to spend way beyond our means in order to do so.

 

Shaun - seems like we are all slipping up with our last sentences:-) Don't see why being big spenders is required to lift cups - I see the necessity in a 40 game league campaign where you need a big and talented squad.

 

Just had a look at the record. In my sprightly young lifetime - 13 finals and 7 cup victories - 3 SCs 4 LCs.

 

Thats roughly a final every three seasons or so. Not bad I suppose,except there is a cluster of 5 victories and 2 losing finals during 8 years. Thats the kind of cluster of good perofrmances I would like to see happening now.

 

So much of it is attitude and coming back to Dave "du" Noir's slagging off of Accenture. If these guys had been working on the Hearts-Falkirk "project", they would have been thorough and studied Falkirk to hell and have a super game plan and tactics to reach the objective. Victory and a place in the next round.

 

I'm sure these bozzos at Tynecastle, management and coaches, just treated this with casual familiarity, like a run of the mill game against well knoiwn opponents. These people fail the club (as an institution and business) and the supporters. They ****ed it up. How could a team with the current talent level of Hearts fail against Falkirk at Tynecastle. The answer - laziness and lack of preparation and then you get ****ed by a couple of bad luck calls.

 

As Jim Mclean famously said "Those who fail to prepare, should prepare to fail." He had to eat his own words as Dundee United lost 8 finals in 15 years. But they did win 2 LCs in that period. There was a team with focus - appearing in 10 cup finals in 15 years, whilst only finishing twice in the top two in the league. That proves the point - clubs outside the OF can expect relative cup success on a regular basis, whilst never reaching that level in the league.

[Charlie-Brown]

One problem as I see it is that any SPL teams outwith the Old Firm that have any real or relative success become victims of that success as richer clubs in England and Glasgow plunder them of their best players - Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee Urd & Motherwell have all had their best players taken from them in the last 3 years.

[VeraNT]

One problem as I see it is that any SPL teams outwith the Old Firm that have any real or relative success become victims of that success as richer clubs in England and Glasgow plunder them of their best players - Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee Urd & Motherwell have all had their best players taken from them in the last 3 years.

 

Charlie - is that really you - the man who knows that the Yeaman bar is the Yeaman Bar???????

 

So just following your logic. Its a bit dodgy to be sucessful as your team gets brocken up.

 

So how about this statement from Tynecastle. "The club is profoundly glad in losing to Falkirk in the Scottish Cup. That will guarantee a lack of success and a stable squad for next season with no departures."

 

Now, I can see what you are getting at in that a sucessful squad can be brocken up and you can't maintain a good record of several years.

[djf]

It's also important that your viewpoint is not skewed by the recent relative fall of the Old Firm teams. Now i'd fancy us to win one in three or one in four against both of them in a cup match but in the past the ratio would have been lower.

[shaun.lawson]

Shaun - seems like we are all slipping up with our last sentences:-) Don't see why being big spenders is required to lift cups - I see the necessity in a 40 game league campaign where you need a big and talented squad.

 

Just had a look at the record. In my sprightly young lifetime - 13 finals and 7 cup victories - 3 SCs 4 LCs.

 

Thats roughly a final every three seasons or so. Not bad I suppose,except there is a cluster of 5 victories and 2 losing finals during 8 years. Thats the kind of cluster of good perofrmances I would like to see happening now.

 

So much of it is attitude and coming back to Dave "du" Noir's slagging off of Accenture. If these guys had been working on the Hearts-Falkirk "project", they would have been thorough and studied Falkirk to hell and have a super game plan and tactics to reach the objective. Victory and a place in the next round.

 

I'm sure these bozzos at Tynecastle, management and coaches, just treated this with casual familiarity, like a run of the mill game against well knoiwn opponents. These people fail the club (as an institution and business) and the supporters. They ****ed it up. How could a team with the current talent level of Hearts fail against Falkirk at Tynecastle. The answer - laziness and lack of preparation and then you get ****ed by a couple of bad luck calls.

 

As Jim Mclean famously said "Those who fail to prepare, should prepare to fail." He had to eat his own words as Dundee United lost 8 finals in 15 years. But they did win 2 LCs in that period. There was a team with focus - appearing in 10 cup finals in 15 years, whilst only finishing twice in the top two in the league. That proves the point - clubs outside the OF can expect relative cup success on a regular basis, whilst never reaching that level in the league.

 

No it doesn't, Vera. It proves it could be done - in the 1980s! You know, back when wee Jum paid his players a pittance and had their heads over a barrel when it came to staying at the club. Bosman happened because the idea of forcing workers to stay when their contract has run out is tantamount to slavery - it couldn't happen now, given bigger clubs swoop for your best players in no time.

 

No Idle Talk used to feature all sorts of debates on this - "what would you rather? 3rd place and no Cup runs; or a Cup and a mid or lower mid-table finish?" Most would choose the latter; but even that viewpoint is out of date now given the dominance of the OF since the late 90s. You write that "you don't see why being big spenders is required to lift cups" - so why is that exactly what's materialised in both England and Scotland since Bosman and CL expansion? Why's no-one else managed it up here?

[shaun.lawson]

It's also important that your viewpoint is not skewed by the recent relative fall of the Old Firm teams. Now i'd fancy us to win one in three or one in four against both of them in a cup match but in the past the ratio would have been lower.

 

Indeed. Hearts' two recent triumphs, both with outstanding sides, were achieved first via three home draws against lower division opposition and the OF drawing each other in the semis; then via more home draws, and the OF being knocked out early. These aren't circumstances we can expect very often. Generally, I think the time to draw the OF is in one of the first three rounds, at Tynecastle: if we have to face them in either the semi or final in Glasgow, we're obviously up against it.

[Charlie-Brown]

Charlie - is that really you - the man who knows that the Yeaman bar is the Yeaman Bar???????

 

So just following your logic. Its a bit dodgy to be sucessful as your team gets brocken up.

 

So how about this statement from Tynecastle. "The club is profoundly glad in losing to Falkirk in the Scottish Cup. That will guarantee a lack of success and a stable squad for next season with no departures."

 

Now, I can see what you are getting at in that a sucessful squad can be brocken up and you can't maintain a good record of several years.

 

It is indeed me Vera ....... of course we all want to be successful i was just pointing out that as we saw after 1998 & 2006 that success was a platform for other teams to plunder our best players and the same has happened to other SPL teams that have won a cup or had a decent run in europe of finish higher up the SPL.

[droid]

ok - so how much impact do you think really focusing on 10 cup games would have on a ~40 game league season? not a lot mate. sometimes it worries me that the clowns that run Hearts have the same attitude as yourself. Phhhhh glad we got knocked out the cup by Falkirk at home, that will potentially give us three games less to play and we can concentrate on the league. What an attitude.

 

whos says im happy to lose at home to falkirk?

youd rather we were a cup team id rather we competed on all fronts not just one competition.

hope that clears things up!!!!

[Buffalo Bill]

In theory, if the owner of Hearts were to say "right, from now on, let's go all out to win the cups", then that doesn't mean to say we 'sacrifice' the league campaign.

 

I'd just like to see us give a lot more added focus and attitude to the cups.

 

As Shaun said, two League Cup victories and we're level with Aberdeen's total haul.

 

A draw that gives us an away trip to Dundee would be treated with dread on here. Airdrie, Motherwell and Falkirk would would be as worrying as Rangers and Celtic.

 

Why?

 

Why can't Falkirk or whoever be trembling at the thought of playing us? Instead, these teams seem to me to be licking their lips at the prospect of playing us.

 

I don't always agree with everything Vera says on here, but I'm with him 100% on this.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[VeraNT]

In theory, if the owner of Hearts were to say "right, from now on, let's go all out to win the cups", then that doesn't mean to say we 'sacrifice' the league campaign.

 

I'd just like to see us give a lot more added focus and attitude to the cups.

 

As Shaun said, two League Cup victories and we're level with Aberdeen's total haul.

 

A draw that gives us an away trip to Dundee would be treated with dread on here. Airdrie, Motherwell and Falkirk would would be as worrying as Rangers and Celtic.

 

Why?

 

Why can't Falkirk or whoever be trembling at the thought of playing us? Instead, these teams seem to me to be licking their lips at the prospect of playing us.

 

I don't always agree with everything Vera says on here, but I'm with him 100% on this.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

Young Codey :-) I know, I know, I know.............

 

We should be looking forward to an away trip to Inverness in the next round with an expectation of a semi final at Hampden. What a boost that would be to anyone on here, or lucky enough to get to Tynecastle on a frequent basis.

 

Even in the glorious Burley run, he fielded a crap side against Livingstone and went out in what he (and we) regarded as an unimportant game. That result actually took a bit of the magic from Hearts and was a factor in the ensuing fall out. A squad that proved it could go all the way and pick up silverware. That was a game that sticks in my memory. Another was the melt down against Hibs when Elvis et al. were ****ing with the club and we threw the tie at Easter Road.

 

I would like to see the post-mortem of the Falkirk defeat. I bet there was not even an effort on that score. If I was responsible for Hearts business I would have wanted the coaching staff and the captain in the office to explain how they ****ed up an easy assignment.

 

This F.A. cup weekend has switched on the severely ****ed off button at Hearts lack of ambition and understanding of the cup competitions to a club in our situation.

 

I wonder how you put pressure on the club to waken them up to this sort of approach.

 

We could start a "Cup-Lobby" splinter group and start bugging the club about this and see if someone cottons on, has some decency to reply and maybe even takes on the responsibility to get things focused.

[shaun.lawson]

Young Codey :-) I know, I know, I know.............

 

We should be looking forward to an away trip to Inverness in the next round with an expectation of a semi final at Hampden. What a boost that would be to anyone on here, or lucky enough to get to Tynecastle on a frequent basis.

 

Even in the glorious Burley run, he fielded a crap side against Livingstone and went out in what he (and we) regarded as an unimportant game. That result actually took a bit of the magic from Hearts and was a factor in the ensuing fall out. A squad that proved it could go all the way and pick up silverware. That was a game that sticks in my memory. Another was the melt down against Hibs when Elvis et al. were ****ing with the club and we threw the tie at Easter Road.

 

I would like to see the post-mortem of the Falkirk defeat. I bet there was not even an effort on that score. If I was responsible for Hearts business I would have wanted the coaching staff and the captain in the office to explain how they ****ed up an easy assignment.

 

This F.A. cup weekend has switched on the severely ****ed off button at Hearts lack of ambition and understanding of the cup competitions to a club in our situation.

 

I wonder how you put pressure on the club to waken them up to this sort of approach.

 

We could start a "Cup-Lobby" splinter group and start bugging the club about this and see if someone cottons on, has some decency to reply and maybe even takes on the responsibility to get things focused.

 

But here's the thing, Vera. Say we had thrown all our eggs in the Cup basket, given Falkirk extra attention and so on (not that I have any idea how we'd quantify whether we had or not) - and still lost. What then? Chances are, you'd be on here slagging the club off, because how could we have possibly lost to Falkirk if we hadn't been paying due attention? Which smacks of divine right-itis to me.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

Come On give the jambos your support

We Can WIN the Scottish Cup

Yes give tham the suppert and they will lift the Cup.

Come on the Jambos

 

Go and pump your sister again hobo!

 

:108years::108years::108years:

[Buffalo Bill]

But here's the thing, Vera. Say we had thrown all our eggs in the Cup basket, given Falkirk extra attention and so on (not that I have any idea how we'd quantify whether we had or not) - and still lost. What then? Chances are, you'd be on here slagging the club off, because how could we have possibly lost to Falkirk if we hadn't been paying due attention? Which smacks of divine right-itis to me.

 

For me Shaun, it's a matter of the mind in conjunction with actual physical and tactical preperation.

 

We should have the attitude that we could be Scotland's great cup rivals to the Old Firm - we fear no one. We could make the cups 'ours', even if we go out biting and scratching.

 

Preperation should be total and absolute anyway.

 

You've said it before: there's a place for us in Scottish football - that clear space between the Old Firm and comfortably away from the rest.

 

The cups can be that avenue, and success breeds success.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[shaun.lawson]

For me Shaun, it's a matter of the mind in conjunction with actual physical and tactical preperation.

 

We should have the attitude that we could be Scotland's great cup rivals to the Old Firm - we fear no one. We could make the cups 'ours', even if we go out biting and scratching.

 

Preperation should be total and absolute anyway.

 

You've said it before: there's a place for us in Scottish football - that clear space between the Old Firm and comfortably away from the rest.

 

The cups can be that avenue, and success breeds success.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

Certainly. It's a lot easier said than done though. In February 2000, Hearts travelled to Rugby Park for a several times delayed League Cup quarter-final. Over the previous few weeks, a number of players in a talented but woefully under-performing team had been in the press saying our goal for the season was to finish 3rd and win both Cups: very ambitious, but why not? Unfortunately, we proceeded to play like drains, muster not a single shot on target, and lose 1-0 to very weak opponents.

 

What hurt was the massive opportunity which had been missed. The worst Celtic side in living memory went on to win the competition, despite playing poorly against both Killie and Aberdeen in the final: a Celtic side we beat twice over the next few months as well as out-perform in the league. I've always believed that, had we won the trophy, JJ couldn't possibly have left the club when he did: how can you get rid of someone who's just ended a 36 year trophy drought and won two Cups in three seasons?

 

Thing is though, for financial reasons, European football was the overriding priority of the club. And it's quite likely that, without the monumental kick up the arse that night provided, we'd never have gone on to win at Parkhead that weekend, nor embark on the run which saw us charge up the table to finish 3rd. I appreciate it shouldn't be an either/or - but too often it is, for most if not all clubs.

 

Moreover, as appallingly we played at Killie, there's no way JJ's team talk consisted of "put your feet up and help yourselves to these nice cream buns, lads": he wanted to win the game. We just didn't - and why teams sometimes play like strangers and give all the appearance of not trying a leg is one of football's eternal mysteries.

[Drew Busby !]

Christ thats a big question Davy but a bl00dy good one. Even based on some kind of weighted probability scores over 135 years of history, our record just doesn't stack up. Arguably these are the glory days, 2 wins since 1998...and if you're a 25 year old Hearts fan it maybe doesn't feel too shabby But with only 5 wins in the preceeding 125 years, it just does not compute. The first-half of the Jeffries era came close to what I felt should be the benchmark and I remember posting at the time that we should be capable of winning a cup competition every 3 seasons or so. OK that was a good Hearts team at that time, but relatively speaking IMO, the Old Firm were stronger then (Larsen at Celtic, Laudrup/Albertz/Gazza at Rangers). And that pair are as regularly beatable in this last 5 years than at any point in my lifetime.

 

Of course ran-tic aren't stopping Hearts from winning cups. Its Hearts that stop Hearts from winning cups. I will probably ponder on my deathbed how this club came to miss out on 2 cup finals after 3 games and 5 hours of football against Airdrie in the 1990's. If I can salvage anything from that, its that (we were always being told) that we had some kind of monkey on our back and the pressure was too great on the players. Well 2 wins in the last decade has slain that monkey so that excuse no longer applies. We should focus on the art of the possible...if we can't win leagues, lets win cups. Its hard not to agree that there should be massively increased focus from the club on the 2 cup competitions. God almighty, when you see what pleasure, feelgood and revenue, winning 5 games on the trot can achieve, then it's a no brainer.

 

Of course with the forthcoming return of the trams and with The Tivoli even recently functioning as some kind of church...well who knows

[VeraNT]

But here's the thing, Vera. Say we had thrown all our eggs in the Cup basket, given Falkirk extra attention and so on (not that I have any idea how we'd quantify whether we had or not) - and still lost. What then? Chances are, you'd be on here slagging the club off, because how could we have possibly lost to Falkirk if we hadn't been paying due attention? Which smacks of divine right-itis to me.

 

As BB mentions above - focusing like mad on a game and an objective to pass to the next round, is not exactly throwing all your eggs in one basket. BTW, I hope any eggs you throw anywhere, are hard boiled:-)

 

There was not much remorse echoed around the cup defeat. Its not like there was a big psychological build up saying, "at last the tubes that run this club, have realised the importance of the cup competitions in our season". It was like the official reason we lost was because of a few bad decisions and the weather.

 

IYHO, do you think they gave any extra preparation for the Falkirk game? If your next league game meant you were out and played no more games that season, I somehow suspect they would be severely focused. In the cup, every game is equally important.

 

In a smart business they would have an accumulating massive incentive scheme for cup competitions. They would know the opposition inside out. They would prepare the team for every game like it was the final. And as many of us have agreed - these cups are Hearts main opportunity for success (and our happiness). Just think how BB would feel, if we did win another couple of SC's and LCs and overtake the sheep shagging *******s in these particular success tables.

[Charlie-Brown]

Rightly or wrongly I think beating Hibs at Easter road in the previous round was our 'final' this season and extending their century-plus drought in that tournament - also we realised that our team is very inconsistent making winning the cup longer odds than other years when we've had stronger teams.

[shaun.lawson]

As BB mentions above - focusing like mad on a game and an objective to pass to the next round, is not exactly throwing all your eggs in one basket. BTW, I hope any eggs you throw anywhere, are hard boiled:-)

 

There was not much remorse echoed around the cup defeat. Its not like there was a big psychological build up saying, "at last the tubes that run this club, have realised the importance of the cup competitions in our season". It was like the official reason we lost was because of a few bad decisions and the weather.

 

IYHO, do you think they gave any extra preparation for the Falkirk game? If your next league game meant you were out and played no more games that season, I somehow suspect they would be severely focused. In the cup, every game is equally important.

 

In a smart business they would have an accumulating massive incentive scheme for cup competitions. They would know the opposition inside out. They would prepare the team for every game like it was the final. And as many of us have agreed - these cups are Hearts main opportunity for success (and our happiness). Just think how BB would feel, if we did win another couple of SC's and LCs and overtake the sheep shagging *******s in these particular success tables.

 

IMHO, no, we didn't. But there'd be fans screaming blue murder if we rested players or had a poor attitude in league games in order to focus our resources on a Cup tie. Exhibit A: Motherwell 1-0 Hearts in January.

 

I do hear what you're saying, Davy. But the OF are so dominant that it's not as though we can go into any Cup competition expecting to win it. If we come up against one of the bigot brothers en route and lose (by way of reminder, we've never beaten an OF team in a semi-final, and have never won at Ibrox in the Cup - both disgraceful records, but there you go), having fallen astern in the league in the meantime, then what? Something compounded by the financial imperative of European football nowadays; and of course, winning the League Cup offers no Euro spot.

 

I'm sure Csaba badly wanted to win the Cup, and realised the opportunity it provided. It just didn't happen. Can clubs actually afford to at times prioritise the Cups over the league? I doubt it to be honest.

[VeraNT]

IMHO, no, we didn't. But there'd be fans screaming blue murder if we rested players or had a poor attitude in league games in order to focus our resources on a Cup tie. Exhibit A: Motherwell 1-0 Hearts in January.

 

I do hear what you're saying, Davy. But the OF are so dominant that it's not as though we can go into any Cup competition expecting to win it. If we come up against one of the bigot brothers en route and lose (by way of reminder, we've never beaten an OF team in a semi-final, and have never won at Ibrox in the Cup - both disgraceful records, but there you go), having fallen astern in the league in the meantime, then what? Something compounded by the financial imperative of European football nowadays; and of course, winning the League Cup offers no Euro spot.

 

I'm sure Csaba badly wanted to win the Cup, and realised the opportunity it provided. It just didn't happen. Can clubs actually afford to at times prioritise the Cups over the league? I doubt it to be honest.

 

Shaun - what do you think Hearts priority is in the league?

1 - not to be relegated

2 - qualify for europe

3 - split the OF

4 - beat Hibs as many times as possible

5 - make sure nobody forgets to book the team bus for away games

 

God knows where winning it would fit in the list. Wherever it is, its very unlikely. A short list of objectives for the season would be

1 - top three finish

2 - win the SC

3 - win the LC

 

Now I don't see with the relative number of potential games between competitions, how 1 would interfere with total focus on any upcoming cup match.

[this_is_my_story]

It always stuns me how Hearts have NOT been more successful in the Scottish Cup. For a team who have consistently finished in the top 5 or 6 of the league, how come we have such a low return on Scottish Cup wins? Would love to hear opinions on this.

 

The OF have such a ****ing great SC record. Given that they are always involved in chasing the league title and often involved in Europe, you would expect them to take their eye off the SC as a key competition. That would leave the likes of us a better chance to establish ourselves with a good SC winners record. It is like Hearts are not really a cup team.

 

You only have to win five games to win the bloody thing.

 

The financial advantages of focusing very seriously on the SC are big. You pick up gate money, TV money and sponsorship from the cup run. If you win it on that last day of the season, the timing is perfect to encourage season ticket sales. It guarantees a European place. You build a feel good factor with the big dormant support that has to result in bigger gates and lots more Hearts merchandise sales.

 

Getting back to the "five games and its won" point. You need to background staff to completely focus on every game and know whats needed to win it. There should be total commitment to this. There should be a major bonus system for everyone involved that signals how important the trophy is for the club. In those five games we have a chance of playing much weaker opposition and less well supported teams. Getting into the semi or final and drawing the OF should not be intimidating as we get the same ticket split as them.

 

I just don't get it, how we have ****ed up so often, in a competition that is definitely easier to win and has so many advantages for the club.

 

Hearts should get in Accenture, or some other top managing consulting agency to make them understand the business factors involved in this. It looks to me like relatively low lieing fruit for happiness and success at Tynecastle.

 

Some good points there. To try and put it all in to a bit of perspective though, imagine - if you can, just for a few seconds - being a hibby.

[Charlie-Brown]

Memo to Hearts: Must do better in the Cups!

[shaun.lawson]

Shaun - what do you think Hearts priority is in the league?

1 - not to be relegated

2 - qualify for europe

3 - split the OF

4 - beat Hibs as many times as possible

5 - make sure nobody forgets to book the team bus for away games

 

God knows where winning it would fit in the list. Wherever it is, its very unlikely. A short list of objectives for the season would be

1 - top three finish

2 - win the SC

3 - win the LC

 

Now I don't see with the relative number of potential games between competitions, how 1 would interfere with total focus on any upcoming cup match.

 

I agree with your three objectives. But having often asked myself, "if you were Hearts boss, what would you do?", I've always answered by prioritising 3rd place over anything else. Having a side good enough to win the Cup seems to go hand in hand with our occasional league challenges; our pathetic League Cup record ****es me off, but as much as I wish it could be put right, I also expect Hearts to win the league games we should.

 

Incidentally, if we got into Europe, then you'd start seeing the problems fixture congestion would cause. That's why it's so difficult to be successful year on year, especially now there is a group stage in the UEFA Cup/Europa League. That's the Cup competition I'd really prioritise, by the way: I'm sick to death of our constant hard luck stories and near misses in Europe, and would throw everything at changing that. But because of finances, European football has to be the club's number one priority; and our best chance of that is always through the league.

[VeraNT]

I agree with your three objectives. But having often asked myself, "if you were Hearts boss, what would you do?", I've always answered by prioritising 3rd place over anything else. Having a side good enough to win the Cup seems to go hand in hand with our occasional league challenges; our pathetic League Cup record ****es me off, but as much as I wish it could be put right, I also expect Hearts to win the league games we should.

 

Incidentally, if we got into Europe, then you'd start seeing the problems fixture congestion would cause. That's why it's so difficult to be successful year on year, especially now there is a group stage in the UEFA Cup/Europa League. That's the Cup competition I'd really prioritise, by the way: I'm sick to death of our constant hard luck stories and near misses in Europe, and would throw everything at changing that. But because of finances, European football has to be the club's number one priority; and our best chance of that is always through the league.

 

 

Where does a third spot finish in the league put us in the UEFA cup next year? Will probably check myself. Does it put us in the last 128 team (plus) round? Probably. It would be good to get there, but I would still prefer some silverware, snaking its way along Gorgie.

 

Looking at the fixtures until we have Hibs again - we could be clear of the pack in third place. Thats what needs to be focused on next.

 

After my rant - we can forget about cups until August or September.

 

But I would love to see the business case for winning the LC or SC. I'm absolutely sure Hearts never look at anything like this. That would be common practice in most businesses.

[davemclaren]

Where does a third spot finish in the league put us in the UEFA cup next year? Will probably check myself. Does it put us in the last 128 team (plus) round? Probably. It would be good to get there, but I would still prefer some silverware, snaking its way along Gorgie.

 

Looking at the fixtures until we have Hibs again - we could be clear of the pack in third place. Thats what needs to be focused on next.

 

After my rant - we can forget about cups until August or September.

 

But I would love to see the business case for winning the LC or SC. I'm absolutely sure Hearts never look at anything like this. That would be common practice in most businesses.

 

The League cup would have a poor business case. Relatively low crowds, sponsorship and no European place. The Scottish Cup is clearly better, Good Crowds, particularly quarter finals onwards and a European place for the winner and possibly the runner up. On top of that there are plenty commercial opportunities on the way.

 

Our record in the LC is poor and a bit better in the SC. Apart from the season we won the cup in 2006 we've been gash, losing to poorer teams under Levein and others. The romance of the cup......

[VeraNT]

Thanks guys, that was a right good banter, like the virtual pub. We thrashed the subject and I will be bringing it right back as our first cup competition starts next season (hopefully and probably the UEFA cup). But I will of course be arguing for a strong focus on the Mickey Mouse Cup at the same time:-) If it means nothing, it must be even easier to win. Its part of the OF "winning mentality" - these ***** don't give up on that sort of thing. Silverware is silverware.

 

I feel inspired enough to write to the club to see if any response is forthcoming from the monolith.

[Debut 4]

Young Codey :-) I know, I know, I know.............

 

We should be looking forward to an away trip to Inverness in the next round with an expectation of a semi final at Hampden. What a boost that would be to anyone on here, or lucky enough to get to Tynecastle on a frequent basis.

 

Even in the glorious Burley run, he fielded a crap side against Livingstone and went out in what he (and we) regarded as an unimportant game. That result actually took a bit of the magic from Hearts and was a factor in the ensuing fall out. A squad that proved it could go all the way and pick up silverware. That was a game that sticks in my memory. Another was the melt down against Hibs when Elvis et al. were ****ing with the club and we threw the tie at Easter Road.

 

I would like to see the post-mortem of the Falkirk defeat. I bet there was not even an effort on that score. If I was responsible for Hearts business I would have wanted the coaching staff and the captain in the office to explain how they ****ed up an easy assignment.

 

This F.A. cup weekend has switched on the severely ****ed off button at Hearts lack of ambition and understanding of the cup competitions to a club in our situation.

 

I wonder how you put pressure on the club to waken them up to this sort of approach.

 

We could start a "Cup-Lobby" splinter group and start bugging the club about this and see if someone cottons on, has some decency to reply and maybe even takes on the responsibility to get things focused.

The bottom line is Vera, we`ve proved on ocassion we are a club that CAN combine a good league season with a cup win.

 

Isn`t that what your meant to do? It`s the clubs job to win trophies, play it`s best in all comps it plays in. The OF start the season out wanting to win the lot.

 

And nobody tell me it`s because they have a bigger squad etc.. because it`s a train of thought, they believe they should win EVERYTHING.

 

We here all the time how Hearts maybe have some better players than the OF but the players at the OF probably gain a certain percentage over the rest because of their mentality and never say die attitiude over the course of a season. I want to go back into that zone where you can be 90 mins away from heartbreak or happiness by being in a position to win trophies, at least your up there and as we have experienced, it`s great when you win.

[droid]

Thanks guys, that was a right good banter, like the virtual pub. We thrashed the subject and I will be bringing it right back as our first cup competition starts next season (hopefully and probably the UEFA cup). But I will of course be arguing for a strong focus on the Mickey Mouse Cup at the same time:-) If it means nothing, it must be even easier to win. Its part of the OF "winning mentality" - these ***** don't give up on that sort of thing. Silverware is silverware.

 

I feel inspired enough to write to the club to see if any response is forthcoming from the monolith.

 

my finest hour!!!!

[$ilvery_Moon]

Our Scottish Cup record isn't great for a club our size but it could be worse... :108years:

 

What astounds me is our woeful record in the wee cup. It's still a major trophy and something we should have, and should be performing much better in.

[Greenbank2]

Strange thread. I'm afraid it's beginning to sound a bit like somewhere else....."we deserve...." Fact is every team in Scotland is always "up for the cup". Let's not forget that in 1986, der hun changed the game in Scotland with the appointment of Souness. How many teams have won the main cup competition twice since then? Apart from the ugly sisters, just the one. And we lost in another final.

 

I think that with money vanishing from the scottish game like snaw oaf a dyke, we MAY be seeing a return to a far more level playing field. That will be signaled by more cup wins for teams outside the uglies. Then maybe, just maybe, we'll see a challenge for the league and for the first time in twenty odd years (the longest period ever?) we'll see something other than green or blue ribbons on the championship trophy. But then again, I won't hold my breath.

[$ilvery_Moon]

Strange thread. I'm afraid it's beginning to sound a bit like somewhere else....."we deserve...." Fact is every team in Scotland is always "up for the cup". Let's not forget that in 1986, der hun changed the game in Scotland with the appointment of Souness. How many teams have won the main cup competition twice since then? Apart from the ugly sisters, just the one. And we lost in another final.

 

I think that with money vanishing from the scottish game like snaw oaf a dyke, we MAY be seeing a return to a far more level playing field. That will be signaled by more cup wins for teams outside the uglies. Then maybe, just maybe, we'll see a challenge for the league and for the first time in twenty odd years (the longest period ever?) we'll see something other than green or blue ribbons on the championship trophy. But then again, I won't hold my breath.

 

Sorry to be the pessimist but all it takes is for them to keep qualifying for the Champions League. I know Rangers didn't do it this season but the money they will get from that will keep the gulf between us and them massive. The quality of football in Scotland as a whole has dropped but even still I doubt very much if we'll be seeing anyone other than the uglies winning the league. The cups are our best and only chance barring a miracle.

[Debut 4]

Strange thread. I'm afraid it's beginning to sound a bit like somewhere else....."we deserve...." Fact is every team in Scotland is always "up for the cup". Let's not forget that in 1986, der hun changed the game in Scotland with the appointment of Souness. How many teams have won the main cup competition twice since then? Apart from the ugly sisters, just the one. And we lost in another final.

 

I think that with money vanishing from the scottish game like snaw oaf a dyke, we MAY be seeing a return to a far more level playing field. That will be signaled by more cup wins for teams outside the uglies. Then maybe, just maybe, we'll see a challenge for the league and for the first time in twenty odd years (the longest period ever?) we'll see something other than green or blue ribbons on the championship trophy. But then again, I won't hold my breath.

 

For all we slag the OF for portraying this attitude it`s unltimately what keeps the standards high at their respective clubs.

 

It` s almost like alot of Hearts fans are afraid of failure and are happy just to see out the season with a little battle for a european place. We may still carry the scars from 1986 and other disappointing let downs when our hopes were high, but i`d rather be in a position to win or lose a cup final/league decider than not be in contention at all.

[VeraNT]

Strange thread. I'm afraid it's beginning to sound a bit like somewhere else....."we deserve...." Fact is every team in Scotland is always "up for the cup". Let's not forget that in 1986, der hun changed the game in Scotland with the appointment of Souness. How many teams have won the main cup competition twice since then? Apart from the ugly sisters, just the one. And we lost in another final.

 

I think that with money vanishing from the scottish game like snaw oaf a dyke, we MAY be seeing a return to a far more level playing field. That will be signaled by more cup wins for teams outside the uglies. Then maybe, just maybe, we'll see a challenge for the league and for the first time in twenty odd years (the longest period ever?) we'll see something other than green or blue ribbons on the championship trophy. But then again, I won't hold my breath.

 

I'm not sure if its a strange thread. The point was that Hearts SC and LC records should be better for a team that are consistently in Scotlands top four. And the question was posed whether Hearts actually see the relative importance of the cup competitions for cementing an "allusion" of success.

The cups (especially the SC) are a much easier way keeping that big dormant support interested and participating, through all the usual channels, in financing the club.

 

It's not about "we deserve", but its more about making a huge focused effort in the cups. In the noises they make before games and after an exit, I'm not convinced the club see the significance in how the cup competitions are our best route to success.

 

Its like Hearts go into a game with your attitude " everybody is up for the cup" almost expecting to be knocked out in the lottery.

[neverlikedElvis]

it was widely acknowledged in 98 that JJ all but acknowledged the side just couldn't go all the way in the league, despite being up there until end Feb and focussed on the SC. even then we were outplayed by Falkirk for 80 mins and rode our luck in the final. and that was with arguably our best side since the early 60s. sheep apart, in their 80s blip, any team outwith the OF who have went on to win the cup (in living memory for a 40 year old) have either had a relatively easy cup run or been lucky in the final.

 

most OF wins in that 40 years have involved easier cup runs too (and a number of dodgy refereeing decisions)

 

winning cups isn't as easy as the OP seems to think

:108years: and all that mind