Refs and HMFC.

[DETTY29]

I disagree. Sky TV had a camera angle that ran along the line of the penalty box from behind the goal and the pictures show that Fulton was on the line of the box when Ferguson fouled him (for the second time in the opening 29 seconds!).

 

McCoist let his leg collapse on the first challenge half a foot outside the box. He was also touched again inside, but by that time, his deckchair legs had folded to win the foul.

 

Both could've been given either way of course, but the two decisions were indeed called correctly, and that to be should never be considered to be some sort of favour.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

Well said BB.

 

I'd even go as far as saying you don't even need to 'scrutinise' the television evidence to confirm whether a penalty or not.

 

Fulton landed well inside the box, at pace with no hint of a dive or over exageration. Therefore refs first instinct, stonewall panalty, with neither linesman in a position to offer a differing view.

 

McCoist just about managed to fall over in the box, in line with the stand side linesdman could see the contact was not inside, and offer an opinion to the ref of no penalty.

 

Young and his linesman got both decisions correct, irrespective of what TV evidence may prove later.

 

Let's take this forward to this season.

 

Larry Kingston did not deserve to be sent off against Celtic, because no where in the rules does it say if you commit a foul within 2 minutes of getting booked you get another yellow.

 

Nade did not deserve to get sent off against United because when is a barge with a huge ?rse a red. (Even for an incompetent like Collum)

 

Fletcher deserved to be sent off against us. On TV evidence he just executed a deliberate late challeng badly.

 

Wallace was unfortunate, but probably technically correct in being red carded against Rangers. Both tackles looked quite bad.

 

Zaliukas deserved his against Celtic due to the pace of the foul on MacDonald and the linesman not being able to keep up it looked a staright red.

 

Jonnson desreved to go against Dundee Utd. Skinned most of the game and committed 2 poor looking challenges.

 

Wallace desrved to go against Aberdeen. But in my opinion to awful guidelines. He shouldn't have called the ref what he did, but surely the ref should know that after previously booking 8 players and red carding one tempers will be frayed and should understand the situation. He must have known he had a howler. It happened off the park so what. Just call Csaba and Wallace into the room later and say enough's enough, he won't be as lenient in the future if wallace shows dissent.

 

I think that leaves Miko against Rangers and Zaliukas against Aberdeen. Niether a sending off. I can't imagine Stuart Dougal books that many players for diving after (albeit) minimal contact, then another foul. As for Brines, he just made up a sending off.

 

So after a long winded story back to the OPs point, I think there are a number of reasons we appear to be getting decisions of late.

 

1. Csaba - Simple and straight forward. He sympathises for general acceptable football reasons but criticises the players for say silly things like dissent and petulance.

2. The players - despite our still woeful red card count, apart from Wallace our the respect and conduct both on the pitch and towards referees has improved considerably.

3. Tha standard of our recent referees - Thomson, Richmond, Murray are miles ahead of some of the pack. I think even Dougie McDonald is starting to get it now as well.

 

Only one slight downside. The 2 red cards which definitely were not remotely merited just happened to be against Lithuanians.

 

So my message to the SFA - we are sorting ourselves out, surely you could do the same and stop persecuting certain players.

[Hackney Hearts]

IMe.g. if a linesmans from govan he must be biased.

 

 

I don't think you can base it on where people are from. We have Hearts fans 'from' Ayr, Inverness, London, Melbourne, Norwich, wherever. They shouldn't, IMO, be allowed to referee a Hearts match.

 

The relevant issue is allegiance, past or present, eg if a match official is or was a Rangers season ticket holder. The whole Davis incident could have been avoided if there was a system where officials are barred from handling matches involving their team. Like politicians, they should be made to declare an interest in a particular club before they join the SFA (quite easily verifiable).

 

And this is not to suggest that any of them would be corrupt, or even weak under temptation.... It's not enough to BE impartial, it's crucial that they are SEEN to be impartial.

[JamboAl]

so it was the week before we had murray then.

 

Still nearer to edinburgh then leith though. Must be biased.

 

You're starting your own smart arsed agenda again.

I didn't suggest we replayed any game: that's your infantile effort at trying to make others look stupid with characteristically sarcastic quips and you were so humbled that you're now trying to extricate yourself. Thomson does not come from Edinburgh.

Nobody mentioned Murray until now: nobody suggested they should be nearer Edinburgh or further away from anywhere. I also believe Murray is from Livingston, despite any connections he may have had with Edinburgh or Leith in the past.

BTW you don't have to join every post to state your view which very soon is coming round to "It's all Romanov's fault".

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I don't think you can base it on where people are from. We have Hearts fans 'from' Ayr, Inverness, London, Melbourne, Norwich, wherever. They shouldn't, IMO, be allowed to referee a Hearts match.

 

The relevant issue is allegiance, past or present, eg if a match official is or was a Rangers season ticket holder. The whole Davis incident could have been avoided if there was a system where officials are barred from handling matches involving their team. Like politicians, they should be made to declare an interest in a particular club before they join the SFA (quite easily verifiable).

 

And this is not to suggest that any of them would be corrupt, or even weak under temptation.... It's not enough to BE impartial, it's crucial that they are SEEN to be impartial.

 

I would tend to agree, it would probably help ease the paranoia a bit if we did this.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

nobody suggested they should be nearer Edinburgh or further away from anywhere.

 

They were totally culpable before the game - by appointing a linesman from Govan. Offficials are supposed to be neutral. End of.

 

[jambojim52]

IMO, thats exactly the kind of blinkered reasoning some of our fans have offered up also e.g. if a linesmans from govan he must be biased.

 

If it good enough for oor Wattie why not? He can spout off that because his name is Murphy he must be biased. Why can't we state that because he comes from Govan he can be biased too.

There have been too many instances where Hearts have had bad calls agianst them and NO they do not even themselves out. Other teams also have complaints but when VR stood up they ran away. They had the perfect chance to change the system and bottled it because they knew ( as VR found out) We ended up worse off because of it.

[JamboAl]

 

That cuts no ice. Govan is where Rangers come from: Hearts do not come from Livingston which is irrelevant any way as the cup tie ref (the subject of your sarcastic quip) comes from Paisley - and before you try to sneak the topic of course again, let me add that geographical neutrality is one criterion but other criteria should also be considered, possibly along the lines of the English FA, in making appointments.

Now just admit you were WRONG!!!

[Ben Dover]

IMO, thats exactly the kind of blinkered reasoning some of our fans have offered up also e.g. if a linesmans from govan he must be biased.

 

I think you are being very selective there JR and IMO the good has far outweighed the bad in that respect JR

And in any case, maybe 'cough'

"It was only meant as a light hearted comment mate"

[Guest JamboRobbo]

That cuts no ice. Govan is where Rangers come from: Hearts do not come from Livingston

 

so you did suggest that refs should be further away from somewhere, namely Govan.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I think you are being very selective there JR and IMO the good has far outweighed the bad in that respect JR

 

You're entitled to that opinion.

 

And in any case, maybe 'cough'

"It was only meant as a light hearted comment mate"

 

possible, but doesn't appear that way.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

If it good enough for oor Wattie why not? He can spout off that because his name is Murphy he must be biased. Why can't we state that because he comes from Govan he can be biased too.

 

Cause we'll quite rightly be laughed at for being paranoid, just like oor Wattie?

 

There have been too many instances where Hearts have had bad calls agianst them and NO they do not even themselves out. Other teams also have complaints but when VR stood up they ran away. They had the perfect chance to change the system and bottled it because they knew ( as VR found out) We ended up worse off because of it.

 

Ask a fan of any other club, and they'll say exactly the same, except it'll be their club thats had too many bad calls against them that didn't even out.

[jambojim52]

Cause we'll quite rightly be laughed at for being paranoid, just like oor Wattie?

 

 

 

Ask a fan of any other club, and they'll say exactly the same, except it'll be their club thats had too many bad calls against them that didn't even out.

 

That's exactly what I said . However the other clubs are right too, the ref make bad decicions to all clubs outwith the OF and this can't be put down to being poor at their job. As I stated earlier even GW Bush wasn't as consistantly bad at his job.

Had the other clubs stood by us at the time things COULD have changed for the better but they ran away leaving us to take the rap and the fall out.

[Francis Albert]

You're starting your own smart arsed agenda again.

I didn't suggest we replayed any game: that's your infantile effort at trying to make others look stupid with characteristically sarcastic quips and you were so humbled that you're now trying to extricate yourself. Thomson does not come from Edinburgh.

Nobody mentioned Murray until now: nobody suggested they should be nearer Edinburgh or further away from anywhere. I also believe Murray is from Livingston, despite any connections he may have had with Edinburgh or Leith in the past.

 

It is a familiar "debating" technique. You misrepresent someone's position in the most extreme way and ridicule it. So if you suggest that Hearts, and Hearts Lithuanian players in particular, may be victims of a degree of bias then you are saying Hearts would be winning the league if it wasn't for refereeing bias. Similarly if you put together Davis's outrageous decision and the fact he is an ex-Rangers ST holder from Govan and draw a reasonable conclusion about his possible bias .... you are saying that because he is from Govan he must be biased.

[JamboAl]

so you did suggest that refs should be further away from somewhere, namely Govan.

 

No I didn't - I suggested they should (inter alia) be geographically neutral.

Keep trying but you're still wrong.

[jambojim52]

I have said this to those I go to the game with, What's the point in playing Miko? He started to play well but IF he was brought down in the box what are the chances of him getting the penalty or even an everyday foul? He was a marked man and every ref in the country found it hard to give him any decision. Ref's are biased I don't care what anyone else says I will never change that opinion. Too many times there are threads on here about the refs and they can't all be maroon tinted specs.

[JamboAl]

It is a familiar "debating" technique. You misrepresent someone's position in the most extreme way and ridicule it. So if you suggest that Hearts, and Hearts Lithuanian players in particular, may be victims of a degree of bias then you are saying Hearts would be winning the league if it wasn't for refereeing bias. Similarly if you put together Davis's outrageous decision and the fact he is an ex-Rangers ST holder from Govan and draw a reasonable conclusion about his possible bias .... you are saying that because he is from Govan he must be biased.

 

 

I didn't say anything of the sort - winning the league is something you have concocted and I don't recall having mentioned Lithuanian players in this context.

I am saying that refs should, amongst other criteria, be geographically neutral and whether Davis is biased or not is totally irrelevant - he simply should not have officiated in that game. To say someone is biased could leave one open to legal action: what I am saying he is he made an honest but monumental error at a time when he was based at Govan Police station.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I am saying that refs should, amongst other criteria, be geographically neutral

 

so how far away from a club would you think a referee had to be to become geographically neutral?

 

and what about origins. would you have no-one who grew up up north allowed to do an aberdeen game? no-one of irish decent allowed to referee celtic games?

 

if we start going down this route, where do you draw the line?

[Francis Albert]

I didn't say anything of the sort - winning the league is something you have concocted and I don't recall having mentioned Lithuanian players in this context.

I am saying that refs should, amongst other criteria, be geographically neutral and whether Davis is biased or not is totally irrelevant - he simply should not have officiated in that game. To say someone is biased could leave one open to legal action: what I am saying he is he made an honest but monumental error at a time when he was based at Govan Police station.

 

Try reading my post again. I was responding to your example ("Let's replay the Easter Road game") of an argument that invents an extreme position to knock it down. I was providing examples of the same technique I have seen today. "You" should have read "one" but how pretentious would that have sounded?

 

As for your second paragraph, my point was that an outrageous decision combined with being an ex-Ibrox ST holder would give reasonable grounds for suspicion (as PC Davis might put it himself). I am not sure geographic restrictions or declarations of interest would be right or would work, but equally I see no reason why we shouldn't air our suspicions!

[topcat]

Some time ago I wrote up an analysis of our dreadfull record in games officiated over by Dougie McDonald. We appeared to win about as often against him as we do against the old firm.

 

Since then he's handled our victories against Hamilton and Rangers and appeared to behave himself. While exiting Tynie after the Rangers game I did think that maybe his record against Hearts had been noticed and somebody in the SFA had deceded to have a word with him.

[Coco]

I think that Calum Murray put in the best refereeing performance I have seen in a Hearts game for a very long time the other week there.

[JamboAl]

so how far away from a club would you think a referee had to be to become geographically neutral?

 

and what about origins. would you have no-one who grew up up north allowed to do an aberdeen game? no-one of irish decent allowed to referee celtic games?

 

if we start going down this route, where do you draw the line?

 

That would always be a contentious issue. What is NOT contentious is that Davis was on their doorstep and that is not geographically neutral. I would say that the cup tie referee Mr Thomson from Paisley could be regarded as geographically neutral. He did not live on the doorstep of us or the wee team. Satisfied?

If you read my earlier posts I acknowledge there are many criteria which might be considered and I suggest the English system as a starting point for discussing change. You never seem to hear allegations of bias in England based solely on residence.

Methinks you are trying to stray from the point again to mask your sarcastic error.

[JamboAl]

Try reading my post again. I was responding to your example ("Let's replay the Easter Road game") of an argument that invents an extreme position to knock it down. I was providing examples of the same technique I have seen today. "You" should have read "one" but how pretentious would that have sounded?

 

As for your second paragraph, my point was that an outrageous decision combined with being an ex-Ibrox ST holder would give reasonable grounds for suspicion (as PC Davis might put it himself). I am not sure geographic restrictions or declarations of interest would be right or would work, but equally I see no reason why we shouldn't air our suspicions!

 

I am coming to the conclusion that you are mistaking me for JR and I hope to hell no one else ever does that. It was the chief poster who suggested a replay of the Easter Road game: even he didn't want that - he was just trying to be smart.

There is much merit in your second paragraph.

[Deevers]

I think that Calum Murray put in the best refereeing performance I have seen in a Hearts game for a very long time the other week there.

 

I would agree with that, and also say that I thought Craig Thomson had a very good match at ER as well.