Arbroath paid

[Victorian]

A question for you Victorian, do you believe if Vlad had not taken the action he did, the droppings and the character asssasination - that he later withdrew/denied - would Webster have done this?

 

By this I mean the bosman mk II scam and not simply left at the end of the season/contract in an existing manner?

 

As I do not, and I would suggest romanov's ego cost hearts a lot of money.

1. i'm not going to defend romanov's public character assassinations and random, scattergun comments about all and sundry. there can be no doubt that at times he has been his own worst enemy.

 

2. what i believe about the webster dropping and subsequent events is that it showed a stark contrast in the professionalism and character of two players, webster and robbie neilson.

 

robbie was also dropped for that game but he kept his mouth firmly shut. he simply got on with his job and has been at the club, and held in high regard by the club, ever since. he was even eventually rewarded with his testimonial, something which webster could have looked forward to if he had played his cards right.

 

by contrast, the shockingly outrageous and unheard of act of dropping a player in favour of another player was met by webster in a completely different way. he screamed off to his agent who immediately broke the story to jim spence who made the story public. instead of accepting that he might have to sit out a few games, in my view the decision was taken that he was leaving hearts by whatever means could get him out. people can point to him being targeted by romanov because he had turned down a new contract, but it was a very lucrative contrac which he would never have had to see out in full... because romanov has always made it clear that he would not stand in the way of a player who honestly made it known that he saw his future elsewhere. the signing of a new contract would have enabled hearts to get a good fee for him which would also have benefited webster financially.

 

romanov was guilty of poking his nose into team selection and nobody wanted that. the facts are that he was doing it and everyone simply had to get on with it and make the best of the situation as it was. romanov's 'crime' was to pick a player in place of another player, whereas webster and his agent's 'crime' was to invoke a previouslu unheard of loophole in order to escape from a contract, which incidently was done incorrectly and led to a ruling that stated that the contract had been breached.

 

which is the worst 'crime'?

[Victorian]

They were due the money though.

missing the point.

 

arbroath were due a payment. what topcat is saying is that arbroath were incorrectly chasing too much money, and this was in dispute. no payment was instigated until the dispute was settled.

[Magic Numbers]

Hold on a minute guys, this ain't over yet!!!!!!

 

From the same article...

 

Having threatened action to freeze Hearts' gate receipts in December, Arbroath agreed to a deferred payment for the ?14,437 owed them plus VAT with interest.

 

That interest, which amounts to around ?450 has not been included and the Gayfield club say they will raise the matter again with the SFA if the money is not forthcoming.

 

When will this end!!!!!

 

Just pay the feckers & move on FFS

 

We are being made to look extremely stupid over this.

[Rawrrrrrrr]

1. i'm not going to defend romanov's public character assassinations and random, scattergun comments about all and sundry. there can be no doubt that at times he has been his own worst enemy.

 

2. what i believe about the webster dropping and subsequent events is that it showed a stark contrast in the professionalism and character of two players, webster and robbie neilson.

 

robbie was also dropped for that game but he kept his mouth firmly shut. he simply got on with his job and has been at the club, and held in high regard by the club, ever since. he was even eventually rewarded with his testimonial, something which webster could have looked forward to if he had played his cards right.

 

by contrast, the shockingly outrageous and unheard of act of dropping a player in favour of another player was met by webster in a completely different way. he screamed off to his agent who immediately broke the story to jim spence who made the story public. instead of accepting that he might have to sit out a few games, in my view the decision was taken that he was leaving hearts by whatever means could get him out. people can point to him being targeted by romanov because he had turned down a new contract, but it was a very lucrative contrac which he would never have had to see out in full... because romanov has always made it clear that he would not stand in the way of a player who honestly made it known that he saw his future elsewhere. the signing of a new contract would have enabled hearts to get a good fee for him which would also have benefited webster financially.

 

romanov was guilty of poking his nose into team selection and nobody wanted that. the facts are that he was doing it and everyone simply had to get on with it and make the best of the situation as it was. romanov's 'crime' was to pick a player in place of another player, whereas webster and his agent's 'crime' was to invoke a previouslu unheard of loophole in order to escape from a contract, which incidently was done incorrectly and led to a ruling that stated that the contract had been breached.

 

which is the worst 'crime'?

 

 

You have completely avoided the question.

 

Do I think ultimately webster wanted to move on? Yes

Do I think he would have been sold for a good fee or seen out his contract without Romanov's behaviour? Yes

 

I think Romanov has cost this club at least a million from what he done here and tbh I dont blame webster one for wanting to move onto better things at that time and two for deciding to use a perfectly legitimate loophole to get out of 18 months of arse splinters.

[Drylaw Hearts]

missing the point.

 

arbroath were due a payment. what topcat is saying is that arbroath were incorrectly chasing too much money, and this was in dispute. no payment was instigated until the dispute was settled.

 

According to TC's log of events Arbroath initially chased an amount of money that BOTH Clubs believed was due - but they 'chased them only for 2 months maximum (April-June)

 

After then agreeing to the revised amount in August Arbroath have now waited around 5 months since re-invoicing Hearts.

[topcat]

They were due the money though.

 

They were very probably due some money but certainly not due the amount they were chasing for 5 months up until August.

 

I don't know if you read the longer post the amount they were chasing up until August was ?26.3K (17.5% of the total compensation)

 

Assuming that the compensation payment should actually be treated as a fee they were actually due ?14.4K

 

If that assumption is false then they were due nothing. This is new legal territory so we probably wont find out how a claim like Arbroath's would stand up in court until it happens somewhere else and there's enough money at stake to make a day in court worthwhile.

 

Or it may be that the Court of Arbitration for Sport will be overruled by a real national court the next time someone does this. Celtic have already said that they'll litigate against any player that does this.

 

If Ronaldo tries to get to Real Madrid a year early then Manchester United are unlikely to let the Webster arbitration ruling deter them from going to the real Courts.

[Victorian]

You have completely avoided the question.

 

Do I think ultimately webster wanted to move on? Yes

Do I think he would have been sold for a good fee or seen out his contract without Romanov's behaviour? Yes

 

I think Romanov has cost this club at least a million from what he done here and tbh I dont blame webster one for wanting to move onto better things at that time and two for deciding to use a perfectly legitimate loophole to get out of 18 months of arse splinters.

i doubt webster would have been villified to such an extent if the very first inkling pointing towards a desire to move to rangers had surfaced after being dropped, contract offer or no contract offer. in my view he would have been given more support because he would have been seen to be a player who has given great service to the club, only to be rewarded with being dropped and left out of the picture.

 

that isn't quite the full picture though. the desire to move on to bigger things was in evidence before the season had started. that in itself is no crime, but when it later transpires that he escapes in a wholly underhand way and even ends up at his desired destination.... no wonder people put 2 and 2 together and get 4.

 

romanov and hearts did lose out financially in the end, that's a fact beause they could have simply accepted rangers ?1M bid and be done with it, but it's all very well in hindsight. i guess romanov never thought for a second that webster would turn down a very lucrative contract and eventually pull the stunt that he did.

[Victorian]

According to TC's log of events Arbroath initially chased an amount of money that BOTH Clubs believed was due - but they 'chased them only for 2 months maximum (April-June)

 

After then agreeing to the revised amount in August Arbroath have now waited around 5 months since re-invoicing Hearts.

yes that's true it would seem. too long IMO. topcat's log of events also mentions the wages debacle which may have some bearing on events as well because there may well have been an issue to deal with regarding priorities when it came to paying various things.

 

hearts are not innocent by any means.

[Drylaw Hearts]

They were very probably due some money but certainly not due the amount they were chasing for 5 months up until August.

 

I don't know if you read the longer post the amount they were chasing up until August was ?26.3K (17.5% of the total compensation)

 

Assuming that the compensation payment should actually be treated as a fee they were actually due ?14.4K

 

If that assumption is false then they were due nothing. This is new legal territory so we probably wont find out how a claim like Arbroath's would stand up in court until it happens somewhere else and there's enough money at stake to make a day in court worthwhile.

 

Or it may be that the Court of Arbitration for Sport will be overruled by a real national court the next time someone does this. Celtic have already said that they'll litigate against any player that does this.

 

If Ronaldo tries to get to Real Madrid a year early then Manchester United are unlikely to let the Webster arbitration ruling deter them from going to the real Courts.

 

 

According to you very own time log they didn't chase the money for 5 months

though.

 

Again - according to you - Arbroath asked the SFA to intervine and I doubt they will have chased Hearts whilst the SFA were investigating.

[topcat]

According to you very own time log they didn't chase the money for 5 months

though.

 

Again - according to you - Arbroath asked the SFA to intervine and I doubt they will have chased Hearts whilst the SFA were investigating.

 

I'd interpreted asking the SFA to intervene as one of the methods of chasing the money.

 

If you want to disagree with that interpretation then feel free

[cammyhearts]

You have completely avoided the question.

 

Do I think ultimately webster wanted to move on? Yes

Do I think he would have been sold for a good fee or seen out his contract without Romanov's behaviour? Yes

 

I think Romanov has cost this club at least a million from what he done here and tbh I dont blame webster one for wanting to move onto better things at that time and two for deciding to use a perfectly legitimate loophole to get out of 18 months of arse splinters.

 

Sorry have to step in here. The main point is if Webster had done the Professional & Honourable thing ie sign a contract with sell on clauses then we would have got our money Arbroath would have got their fare share. If Webster and his agent had only conducted themselves as did Hartley and his then there would be no need for f##ckwits like you to breathe.

If that is classed as personal abuse its worth it.

[Boris]

Hold on a minute guys, this ain't over yet!!!!!!

 

From the same article...

 

Having threatened action to freeze Hearts' gate receipts in December, Arbroath agreed to a deferred payment for the ?14,437 owed them plus VAT with interest.

 

That interest, which amounts to around ?450 has not been included and the Gayfield club say they will raise the matter again with the SFA if the money is not forthcoming.

 

When will this end!!!!!

 

Just pay the feckers & move on FFS

 

We are being made to look extremely stupid over this.

 

I wonder if this is as a result of the Vat rate dropping from 17.5% to 15%?

[David Brent]

i doubt webster would have been villified to such an extent if the very first inkling pointing towards a desire to move to rangers had surfaced after being dropped, contract offer or no contract offer. in my view he would have been given more support because he would have been seen to be a player who has given great service to the club, only to be rewarded with being dropped and left out of the picture.

 

that isn't quite the full picture though. the desire to move on to bigger things was in evidence before the season had started. that in itself is no crime, but when it later transpires that he escapes in a wholly underhand way and even ends up at his desired destination.... no wonder people put 2 and 2 together and get 4.

 

romanov and hearts did lose out financially in the end, that's a fact beause they could have simply accepted rangers ?1M bid and be done with it, but it's all very well in hindsight. i guess romanov never thought for a second that webster would turn down a very lucrative contract and eventually pull the stunt that he did.

 

If Webster had accepted the very generous terms offered by HMFC and signed a new contract, Rangers would have dropped their interest like a hot potato. Webster and his agent clearly understood this and had no intention of re-newing his contract with Hearts.

 

Webster>>

[Rawrrrrrrr]

Sorry have to step in here. The main point is if Webster had done the Professional & Honourable thing ie sign a contract with sell on clauses then we would have got our money Arbroath would have got their fare share. If Webster and his agent had only conducted themselves as did Hartley and his then there would be no need for f##ckwits like you to breathe.

If that is classed as personal abuse its worth it.

 

So Andy Webster was legally and morally obliged in your opinion to sign a new contract that he didnt want too?

 

there isnt really any sort of come back for that sort of idiotic thinking

 

Webster only acted like that because if he didnt he would have spent 18 months warming a bench

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

So let's see. Arbroath have been paid and Webster's career is down the toilet. Can we all celebrate that and move on?

[Drylaw Hearts]

So let's see. Arbroath have been paid and Webster's career is down the toilet. Can we all celebrate that and move on?

 

The outcome should have been so different though.

 

We missed out on a tidy profit and needlessly too.

 

We are all losers in this particular case.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The outcome should have been so different though.

 

We missed out on a tidy profit and needlessly too.

 

We are all losers in this particular case.

 

We were only losers because of the ridiculous decision of the CAS. It was proven that Webster didn't meet the criteria for handing in his notice but he still won anyway for some reason.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Why do they have to write "finally"?

What does BBC Scotland care?

a$$holes.

[Drylaw Hearts]

We were only losers because of the ridiculous decision of the CAS. It was proven that Webster didn't meet the criteria for handing in his notice but he still won anyway for some reason.

 

We were losers because we tried to make a player stay who didn't want to stay.

 

If we'd just accepeted that the guy wanted to move on this whole sorry episode would have been avoided.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Why do they have to write "finally"?

 

Eh.........

 

Probably because the money was outstanding for so long.

 

 

What does BBC Scotland care?

 

I'm sure you would have been amongst the fist to complain if they HADN'T reported it.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Eh.........

 

Probably because the money was outstanding for so long.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure you would have been amongst the fist to complain if they HADN'T reported it.

 

You must have me mixed up with some other @hole. I couldn't give two f@#$s wether they report it or not. What it should have read is "Hearts pay Abroath monies due for Webster transfer"

Again the Scottish media has to get a kick in to us at every opportunity. Just gets on my t!t$ reading this pure $#!te every week.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

We were losers because we tried to make a player stay who didn't want to stay.

 

If we'd just accepeted that the guy wanted to move on this whole sorry episode would have been avoided.

 

Brilliant! And in fact we should just have rolled over and accepted the ?750K from Rangers as well!

 

Are you Chris Robinson?

[Drylaw Hearts]

Brilliant! And in fact we should just have rolled over and accepted the ?750K from Rangers as well!

 

Are you Chris Robinson?

 

There comes a point where you just have to accept that a player is going to leave you and you have to do what is best for the Club - get as big a Fee as possible.

 

Players will always want to leave for bigger clubs - that's football.

[Ben Dover]

There comes a point where you just have to accept that a player is going to leave you and you have to do what is best for the Club - get as big a Fee as possible.

 

Players will always want to leave for bigger clubs - that's football.

 

Unfortunately AW was a test case in many ways.

Remember this was at a critical time when Vlad had pledged that we would not be selling our best players to the OF. In hindsight taking the meagre ?750k might look like good business ( considering the hap-hazard way we have been run since ) but, at the time, it would have been an embarrassing climb down FOR ALL OF US had he done so !

[Drylaw Hearts]

Unfortunately AW was a test case in many ways.

Remember this was at a critical time when Vlad had pledged that we would not be selling our best players to the OF. In hindsight taking the meagre ?750k might look like good business ( considering the hap-hazard way we have been run since ) but, at the time, it would have been an embarrassing climb down FOR ALL OF US had he done so !

 

The bid from Rangers had come in the Summer and Webster ko'd the new contract offer in late January/early February.

 

If we'd agreed to sell him in the summer who knows what the bid may have been from Rangers - if any at all.

 

PLG may not have fancied AW.

[JamboAl]

The bid from Rangers had come in the Summer and Webster ko'd the new contract offer in late January/early February.

 

If we'd agreed to sell him in the summer who knows what the bid may have been from Rangers - if any at all.

 

PLG may not have fancied AW.

 

You're missing a few facts like Webster not going on tour when he was contractually obliged, as a Hearts player, to do so.

 

To this day I do not believe we were legally liable to pay them anything after the 2nd ruling which was compensation for the remainder of his contract. We never received a transfer fee as such so Arbroath could not get a cut of one.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The bid from Rangers had come in the Summer and Webster ko'd the new contract offer in late January/early February.

 

If we'd agreed to sell him in the summer who knows what the bid may have been from Rangers - if any at all.

 

PLG may not have fancied AW.

 

I don't get this. We know that a ?750K bid from Rangers was turned down. George Foulkes told us this in the press. After this, Webster threw the toys out of the pram and Burley suggested that he shouldn't go on the Irish tour.

 

I do accept that Webster's attitude to a new contract probably wasn't helped by the sacking of Burley but equally he had no automatic 'right' to a first team place. Similarly, Rangers didn't bid for him again in January after Le Guen had left, even before the new contract had been offered.

 

It was all too convenient.

[Drylaw Hearts]

You're missing a few facts like Webster not going on tour when he was contractually obliged, as a Hearts player, to do so.

 

He stayed behind on the say so of George Burley.

 

To this day I do not believe we were legally liable to pay them anything after the 2nd ruling which was compensation for the remainder of his contract. We never received a transfer fee as such so Arbroath could not get a cut of one.

 

The original clause in the deal that took Webster to Hearts was that Arbroath were to receive 17.5% of any money Hearts gained in compensation for Websters Regisration being transferred to another Club.

 

We got ?150,000.

 

Hearts did not query they were due Arbroath money but they did query the amount.

[Drylaw Hearts]

I don't get this. We know that a ?750K bid from Rangers was turned down. George Foulkes told us this in the press. After this, Webster threw the toys out of the pram and Burley suggested that he shouldn't go on the Irish tour.

 

I do accept that Webster's attitude to a new contract probably wasn't helped by the sacking of Burley but equally he had no automatic 'right' to a first team place. Similarly, Rangers didn't bid for him again in January after Le Guen had left, even before the new contract had been offered.

 

It was all too convenient.

 

I think you may have your dates mixed up.

 

Andy Webster left Hearts around the same time as PLG joined Rangers.

[Miller Jambo 60]

Why?

 

The fact is the money is 9 months overdue and hearts lied publically several times and claimed it was paid or would be paid shortly.

 

The embarassment and damage was well done and finally paying up won't change that.

 

the only way it could get any worse is if the BACS bounced

 

You never stop they are paid now.

Good thing about Arbroath are the SMOKIES mm ACE

PRANCER you are a you decide:laugh:

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I think you may have your dates mixed up.

 

Andy Webster left Hearts around the same time as PLG joined Rangers.

 

I stand corrected. I was forgetting it was McLeish who was managing them at the time.

 

That said, the principle of my post stands. Simply put, Rangers put a bid in for Webster in the summer, we rejected it and his contract status hadn't changed that January. Why did Rangers not make another bid for him then and, in addition with that knowledge, why was Webster so adamant that he would NOT sign a new deal at Hearts?

 

Answer: He was tapped and his agent and David Murray were going to engineer a move to Ibrox in some way, shape or form.

[Drylaw Hearts]

 

Answer: He was tapped and his agent and David Murray were going to engineer a move to Ibrox in some way, shape or form.

 

You are probably correct with that last statement.

 

However......

 

They say tapping is against the rules but I bet there isn't a single Club out there that hasn't done it.

 

You win some - You lose some.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

You are probably correct with that last statement.

 

However......

 

They say tapping is against the rules but I bet there isn't a single Club out there that hasn't done it.

 

You win some - You lose some.

 

Quite so but what still grates with me is that Webster, Wigan and Rangers seemed to get away with it.

 

His subsequent career, however, has shown that karma is a bitch and in some ways it is more satisfying than having another ?600K in the bank had we accepted the original offer (less of course what Arbroath would have been due ).

[Charlie-Brown]

Andy Webster finally joined Rangers in January 2007 just as Walter arrived & just after PLG had departed...it was kind of a Colin Hendry type signing ie someone Rangers fancied and made initial moves to sign him under McLeish, went thru Webstergate under PLG and eventally loaned & signed him under Smith only to now want to release him.....stinks more than fermented fish......

[Drylaw Hearts]

Quite so but what still grates with me is that Webster, Wigan and Rangers seemed to get away with it.

 

His subsequent career, however, has shown that karma is a bitch and in some ways it is more satisfying than having another ?600K in the bank had we accepted the original offer (less of course what Arbroath would have been due ).

 

Wigan had to pay ?150,000.

 

Webster got a ban anf as there was no proof of any involvement from Rangers there is very little that could have happened to them.

 

Although..........

 

They have paid AW plenty in wages for absolutely no return.

 

[JAYEL]

Did he pick up an injury tonight in the " friendly " ?

 

Fingers crossed.

 

 

 

 

.

[Charlie-Brown]

Wigan had to pay ?150,000.

 

Webster got a ban anf as there was no proof of any involvement from Rangers there is very little that could have happened to them.

 

Although..........

 

They have paid AW plenty in wages for absolutely no return.

 

 

A strange case of Rangers wanting to sign Webster under 3 separate managers (McLeish, Le Guen, Smith) over the course of the saga......also awfy strange that teams that share sponsors manage to sign & loan this very same player to satisfy / exploit the regulations.... however........

[Drylaw Hearts]

A strange case of Rangers wanting to sign Webster under 3 separate managers (McLeish, Le Guen, Smith) over the course of the saga......also awfy strange that teams that share sponsors manage to sign & loan this very same player to satisfy / exploit the regulations.... however........

 

Did they want to sign him under PLG ?

 

I don't recall that tbh.

 

Infact.....

 

I'm not sure they would have been allowed to.

[redm]

Just wondering...this interest malarky...did Hearts actually ever agree to pay this? I remember there being an article in one of the papers with the guy from Arbroath and he said something about demanding some interest on top because of the delayed payment but perhaps Hearts just didn't agree on this part?

 

To be honest, I'm fed up with the whole thing. It was a sore one for Hearts to take and much as I might feel sorry for Arbroath if it was some other SPL club they were dealing with, it isn't some other club, it's Hearts...and I wish they'd just take their money and bugger off.

[Charlie-Brown]

Did they want to sign him under PLG ?

 

I don't recall that tbh.

 

Infact.....

 

I'm not sure they would have been allowed to.

 

No you are correct they just wanted to sign him before hand, then there was some legalities and they signed him immediately afterwards as soon as they could just a few days after Le Guen departed and just as Wattie arrived in his traitorous departure from the Scotland job.....

[Drylaw Hearts]

No you are correct they just wanted to sign him before hand, then there was some legalities and they signed him immediately afterwards as soon as they could just a few days after Le Guen departed and just as Wattie arrived in his traitorous departure from the Scotland job.....

 

It is no surprise WS wanted to sign him - he played him often enough for Scotland IIRC.

[Charlie-Brown]

It is no surprise WS wanted to sign him - he played him often enough for Scotland IIRC.

 

Possibly more times in Dark Blue than Light Blue...

[Drylaw Hearts]

Possibly more times in Dark Blue than Light Blue...

 

Possibly ?

 

Definitely !

 

 

 

[Flux]

interest not paid?

 

http://www.arbroath-mad.co.uk/news/loadnews.asp?cid=TMNW&id=426264

[shaun.lawson]

interest not paid?

 

http://www.arbroath-mad.co.uk/news/loadnews.asp?cid=TMNW&id=426264

 

BBC website confirmed that yesterday. It's **** poor behaviour from Hearts TBH.

[Mr Brightside]

Hearts have missed a great PR opportunity with this fiasco.

 

They could have stated that we were not due Arbroath anything due to the nature of Webster's move, but paid them the ?15k as a gesture of goodwill.

 

Instead we are paying ?15k that we probably didn't need to pay but are made to look like disorganised shambles.

[Guest Fabuloso]

Just wondering...this interest malarky...did Hearts actually ever agree to pay this? I remember there being an article in one of the papers with the guy from Arbroath and he said something about demanding some interest on top because of the delayed payment but perhaps Hearts just didn't agree on this part?

 

To be honest, I'm fed up with the whole thing. It was a sore one for Hearts to take and much as I might feel sorry for Arbroath if it was some other SPL club they were dealing with, it isn't some other club, it's Hearts...and I wish they'd just take their money and bugger off.[/QUOTE]

 

Hearts would do exacty the same if they were owed money. As for the interest why should Arbroath be penalised due to Hearts inability to pay in time. Of course Hearts are due to pay interest gained.

 

This issue, poor as it is, is not a huge one however given other late payments around Tynecastle way and the general nonsense of the last few years I'm afraid it grows into a larger potato.

[redm]

 

Hearts would do exacty the same if they were owed money. As for the interest why should Arbroath be penalised due to Hearts inability to pay in time. Of course Hearts are due to pay interest gained.

 

This issue, poor as it is, is not a huge one however given other late payments around Tynecastle way and the general nonsense of the last few years I'm afraid it grows into a larger potato.

 

Not a sweet potato perchance?

[Guest Fabuloso]

Not a sweet potato perchance?

 

Dauphinoise:)

[Ben Dover]

Hearts have missed a great PR opportunity with this fiasco.

 

They could have stated that we were not due Arbroath anything due to the nature of Webster's move, but paid them the ?15k as a gesture of goodwill.

 

Instead we are paying ?15k that we probably didn't need to pay but are made to look like disorganised shambles.

 

Exactly what I've been trying to say