Still not sure if fining clubs for frozen pitches is the answer ...

[jambovambo]

Much hand-wringing going on at Motherwell and Kilmarnock e.g. ...

 

http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/headlines/display.var.2473934.0.Cancellation_was_not_our_fault_says_Kilmarnock_chairman.php

 

The more I think about it, I think fining clubs, for having a frozen pitch thus causing a postponement, is not appropriate.

 

What level do you set it at ?

 

It still leaves the club with a decision they could make ... "*** it, both our central defenders are injured, and we cannae play one of the other bottom teams like that - dinnae fire up the boilers the night, like" ...

 

I seriously like the notion of awarding 1 point to the away team, then rearranging the game for the 2 points.

 

Also, interesting to see if Dons fans will get their travel reimbursed ...

[jambojim52]

Generally if you can't play a game ( in any sport) you forfeit the game. The simple answer therefore is award the points to the opposition. That way the fans/clubs do not incur more expence travelling to the rearanged fixture. If you don't want to play the games for the above reason then just say so and lose the points. That way no money is wasted as you can simply say so early enough to stop fans travelling.

This maybe a simplistic way to look at things but far too often fans lose out with no compensation.

[Ben Dover]

Much hand-wringing going on at Motherwell and Kilmarnock e.g. ...

 

http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/headlines/display.var.2473934.0.Cancellation_was_not_our_fault_says_Kilmarnock_chairman.php

 

The more I think about it, I think fining clubs, for having a frozen pitch thus causing a postponement, is not appropriate.

 

What level do you set it at ?

 

It still leaves the club with a decision they could make ... "*** it, both our central defenders are injured, and we cannae play one of the other bottom teams like that - dinnae fire up the boilers the night, like" ...

 

I seriously like the notion of awarding 1 point to the away team, then rearranging the game for the 2 points.

 

Also, interesting to see if Dons fans will get their travel reimbursed ...

 

This is perhaps the crux isn't it

Is there any where else where the 'customer' appears to have so few rights ?

The SPL may fine the clubs but what good does that do for the fans left disadvantaged by the call off ?

Of course there is nothing set down in stone to deal with this situation and I dare say we will have another Turkeys voting for Xmas situation if we put any sanctions to a vote of the member clubs

[shaun.lawson]

I think it should be a sliding scale:

 

1. Small fine

2. Large fine

3. Large fine and suspended points deduction

4. Points deduction, further suspended points deduction and first warning.

5. Points deduction, further suspended points deduction and second warning.

6. Expulsion from SPL.

[jambovambo]

I think it should be a sliding scale:

 

1. Small fine

2. Large fine

3. Large fine and suspended points deduction

4. Points deduction, further suspended points deduction and first warning.

5. Points deduction, further suspended points deduction and second warning.

6. Expulsion from SPL.

 

Is that on a per-game-postponed scale ?

 

What's the point in a "small" fine ?

 

What is a "small" fine ?

[shaun.lawson]

Is that on a per-game-postponed scale ?

 

What's the point in a "small" fine ?

 

What is a "small" fine ?

 

A small fine would be around 10K or so for a persistent offender unpunished until that point. Each further punishment would depend on whether it was within the capacity of the club concerned to avoid a game being postponed, and what steps they'd taken to ensure their facilities were up to date.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I think they should have till the end of the season to prove it's been fixed, and if they can't, they should be thrown out the SPL.

 

A first division team wouldn't be allowed to be promoted without undersoil heating, so Motherwell and Killie shouldn't stay in if they don'thave i.t

[jambojim52]

A small fine would be around 10K or so for a persistent offender unpunished until that point. Each further punishment would depend on whether it was within the capacity of the club concerned to avoid a game being postponed, and what steps they'd taken to ensure their facilities were up to date.

 

You make a fair point Shaun, however we must remember it's the GFA we are on about, and they do not do fair. Some clubs would find they get hit, no matter how hard they try to put games on.

[jambovambo]

A small fine would be around 10K or so for a persistent offender unpunished until that point. Each further punishment would depend on whether it was within the capacity of the club concerned to avoid a game being postponed, and what steps they'd taken to ensure their facilities were up to date.

 

Pah - so several games could be postponed before any action was taken ?

 

By the way, following on from my suggestion of a one point deduction, how much is one point worth at the end of the season when they divvy up the points money ?

 

Seems to me, it's ideal - instant, effectively a fine, but also potential punishment in league standing too.

[shaun.lawson]

Pah - so several games could be postponed before any action was taken ?

 

By the way, following on from my suggestion of a one point deduction, how much is one point worth at the end of the season when they divvy up the points money ?

 

Seems to me, it's ideal - instant, effectively a fine, but also potential punishment in league standing too.

 

I think it's mental! Why should a manager, his team and fans be punished? Motherwell closed Fir Park down to try and get it sorted: as this is their first offence since, we'd be into the sliding scale I've suggested. These are tough times for everyone - and a massive fine and/or points deduction is too punitive at this stage IMO. Unless the situation still isn't sorted, and it happens again.

[jambovambo]

Personally, I doubt the conspiracy theories - e.g. that 'well didn't want to play us this weekend etc ... if you are that paranoid about one instance of the very reason your football club is in existence - for your team to play football - then you shouldn't be in business.

 

I think the stuff about neighbours' complaints could have been true, but that seems to be in the past anyway.

 

Any fine has to be far more expensive than the cost of using your undersoil heating, else the whole thing's skew-wiff.

[jambovambo]

I think it's mental! Why should a manager, his team and fans be punished? Motherwell closed Fir Park down to try and get it sorted: as this is their first offence since, we'd be into the sliding scale I've suggested. These are tough times for everyone - and a massive fine and/or points deduction is too punitive at this stage IMO. Unless the situation still isn't sorted, and it happens again.

 

C'mon - remember there is no such thing as an "Act of G*d" in the insurance world - they should be playing the percentage game with their undersoil heating, rather than the nonsense they have both trotted out, similar to the "wrong sort of leaves on the line" stuff from BR (although apparently that is actually true ...)

 

The clubs' operations people should be absolutely sure there is no problem with their undersoil heating arrangements every time.

 

How punitive is giving Hearts and Aberdeen one point each from the weekend's non-games, Shaun ?

[DETTY29]

I think it should be a sliding scale:

 

1. Small fine

2. Large fine

3. Large fine and suspended points deduction

4. Points deduction, further suspended points deduction and first warning.

5. Points deduction, further suspended points deduction and second warning.

6. Expulsion from SPL.

 

Interesting Shaun,

 

And probably the correct solution however, in these current climes, I'm not sure what type, if any sanctions should be apportioned to clubs for misdemeanours. Clubs simply can't afford fines or points deduction without running the risk of going out of business. Is this really what we want? At this moment in time if the facts are reported correctly only Celtic, Hibs and another couple of clubs can technically afford to stay in the league.

 

Motherwell just can't afford the reported ?100k on a heating system that, even without working managed to clear 95% of the pitch.

 

What about Hearts? Up to 5 sendings off this season, suspnded fines hanging over us all over the place. Apart from Stewart's indiscretion against St. Mirren our basic discipline, respect for referees his improved immeasurably this season. Going by your sliding scale we can't be far off points deduction -As an aside, MacNamara's tackle at the weekend was far worse than our 15 sendings off in the last season and a bit combined.

 

I don't know the answer, but as Hearts fans we should be very wary of wishing ill on others considering our predicamant. Have we got ?100k kicking about to fix our boiler if need be?

[shaun.lawson]

C'mon - remember there is no such thing as an "Act of G*d" in the insurance world - they should be playing the percentage game with their undersoil heating, rather than the nonsense they have both trotted out, similar to the "wrong sort of leaves on the line" stuff from BR (although apparently that is actually true ...)

 

How punitive is giving Hearts and Aberdeen one point each from the weekend's non-games, Shaun ?

 

It's daft - because it won't have been earned through playing a football match! Especially in Aberdeen's case: this was the first problem at Rugby Park in ages.

[shaun.lawson]

Interesting Shaun,

 

And probably the correct solution however, in these current climes, I'm not sure what type, if any sanctions should be apportioned to clubs for misdemeanours. Clubs simply can't afford fines or points deduction without running the risk of going out of business. Is this really what we want? At this moment in time if the facts are reported correctly only Celtic, Hibs and another couple of clubs can technically afford to stay in the league.

 

Motherwell just can't afford the reported ?100k on a heating system that, even without working managed to clear 95% of the pitch.

 

What about Hearts? Up to 5 sendings off this season, suspnded fines hanging over us all over the place. Apart from Stewart's indiscretion against St. Mirren our basic discipline, respect for referees his improved immeasurably this season. Going by your sliding scale we can't be far off points deduction -As an aside, MacNamara's tackle at the weekend was far worse than our 15 sendings off in the last season and a bit combined.

 

I don't know the answer, but as Hearts fans we should be very wary of wishing ill on others considering our predicamant. Have we got ?100k kicking about to fix our boiler if need be?

 

I agree with all of this, especially the part I've emboldened. That's why the sanctions I've suggested are so cautious initially, and would be aimed at giving all clubs every chance possible to get their house in order. In theory, we wouldn't get to stage 4, let alone stage 6.

[jambovambo]

It's daft - because it won't have been earned through playing a football match! Especially in Aberdeen's case: this was the first problem at Rugby Park in ages.

 

My basic "point" (arf) is that it is a point allocation rather than a deduction ... instant, on the spot fine, if you like - no actual cash changes hands at the time, money stays in the game etc etc blah blah.

 

Ah well ... the people with the best ideas often don't get listened to, eh ?

[shaun.lawson]

My basic "point" (arf) is that it is a point allocation rather than a deduction ... instant, on the spot fine, if you like - no actual cash changes hands at the time, money stays in the game etc etc blah blah.

 

Ah well ... the people with the best ideas often don't get listened to, eh ?

 

As you and I both know! Er, maybe...

[jambovambo]

Can you imagine the furore if an Old Firm away game was postponed at the last minute, when their fans were on the way ?

 

E.g. to Aberdeen or Inverness ?

 

Ah ... but there again ... I wonder if that would happen ...

[Paolo]

I think it should be a sliding scale:

 

1. Small fine

2. Large fine

3. Large fine and suspended points deduction

4. Points deduction, further suspended points deduction and first warning.

5. Points deduction, further suspended points deduction and second warning.

6. Expulsion from SPL.

 

Motherwell have reached about 8 - so what happens to them?

[DETTY29]

Can you imagine the furore if an Old Firm away game was postponed at the last minute, when their fans were on the way ?

 

E.g. to Aberdeen or Inverness ?

 

Ah ... but there again ... I wonder if that would happen ...

 

 

Like Rangers East Stirling in the cup last season - I know, not SPL. and flooded rather than frozen pitches. I'm sure if you check back from the conception of the SPL, whether it be league or cup ties there is a team from the blue end of Glasgow, that have had more than their fair share of call offs.

[The Don]

I think a fine and/or points deduction should be in place for incompetance.

 

There will obviously be the one off complate technical faults that cannot be prevented. This is where the SFA/SPL have to use a bit of Common sense (But wouldnt hold my breath on that)

 

For serial/Repeat offenders however Like in Motherwells case they should be fined and points deduction, and on each occasion it happens thereafter doubling that fine and points deduction. The SFA double fines for disciplinary.

 

If The game on saturday had been Motherwells first time we would all be hacked off but would accept it, it is not their first time regarding this matter and they should therefore be hit heavily.

[shaun.lawson]

Motherwell have reached about 8 - so what happens to them?

 

But they closed Fir Park down last season, which will have cost them a considerable amount. They're therefore at point 1 or at most point 2 on my scale - no-one else is anywhere near point 1 (in Killie's case, it'd have to happen at least twice more I'd say).

[Tynie b]

I personally think that Murderwell should be relagated...Nothing to do with Frozen pitches, I just HATE that team and it's Psudo weeg supporters!!

[Col1874]

If the game is postponed for reasons that could have been avoided, I think they should make the re-arranged fixture be played at the other teams ground.

 

In other words, the motherwell game which was cancelled should be re-arranged to be played at Tynecastle.

 

Won't ever happen but I just thought i'd voice my opinion!

[shaun.lawson]

If the game is postponed for reasons that could have been avoided, I think they should make the re-arranged fixture be played at the other teams ground.

 

In other words, the motherwell game which was cancelled should be re-arranged to be played at Tynecastle.

 

Won't ever happen but I just thought i'd voice my opinion!

 

Which'd mean the away side benefits in an unfair way over all other teams in the league. Therefore a complete non-starter.

[leginten]

Fine Killie and Motherwell a lot now. Motherwell more, because they've already been warned. I don't know how much "a lot" is. ?30,000?

 

To prevent repetition: when bad weather is forecast in the run-up to an SPL fixture, clubs with a poor track record have to allow access to their ground at any time of the day or night to an SPL inspection team, which might consist only of a heating engineer who could assess whether or not their undersoil heating system was switched on and operating as it should be. All costs of providing 24-hour access and paying wages of the inspection team to be met by the offending clubs.

[269miles]

I am staggered at Killie's attitude. It's Scotland , in December , but they didn't even have it switched on. Then they say it would have to have been switched on for 10 days in any case. It's all the fault of the poor weather forecast.

 

FFS why bother having it if you can switch it off and lay the blame at the BBC. Every club could do that and save a fortune.

 

As for Murrawell. i wouldn't believe a word that comes from their collective mouths , especially in light of the 'sunlight not reaching the pitch' routine. Talk about stating the bleeding obvious.

 

Points dedcution all round please with fa urther threat of heavy fines to compensate travelling fans. Failing that I hope the fans involved have the good sense to boycott the replays.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

I think it should be a sliding scale:

 

1. Small fine

2. Large fine

3. Large fine and suspended points deduction

4. Points deduction, further suspended points deduction and first warning.

5. Points deduction, further suspended points deduction and second warning.

6. Expulsion from SPL.

 

 

So in reality no big problems for a club until the 4th game is off?

 

Fines dont work, they need to have points taken off them to learn. Much like the old firm in other matters.

[jambovambo]

If the game is postponed for reasons that could have been avoided, I think they should make the re-arranged fixture be played at the other teams ground.

 

In other words, the motherwell game which was cancelled should be re-arranged to be played at Tynecastle.

 

Won't ever happen but I just thought i'd voice my opinion!

No, you could be onto something ... but with the following tweaks.

 

E.g. play Saturday's postponed game at Tynecastle tomorrow night, and make the Motherwell home game (scheduled for 4th March) the away game at Motherwell. Existing tickets still valid for the March game.

 

Advantages :

 

A game between the two teams gets played quickly.

The disadvantaged team (Hearts) gets gate money, and home advantage.

 

Disadvantage:

 

The disorganised team (Motherwell) has "our" ticket moeny for a long time.

 

It is over this period now (say, until mid-Feb) that issues arise. If a game is postponed late in that period, yeah, there might be a problem with H and A games post-Top Six split, but let's hope that doesn't last forever anyway.

[Johanes de Silentio]

If these clubs are struggling to pay for the heating, how is fining them going to help?

[shaun.lawson]

So in reality no big problems for a club until the 4th game is off?

 

Fines dont work, they need to have points taken off them to learn. Much like the old firm in other matters.

 

When did the OF ever have points deducted? And what are the 'other matters' you're thinking of?

[jambovambo]

"If these clubs are struggling to pay for the heating, how is fining them going to help?"...

 

... exactly ... and if Rangers / Celtic got a fine, one of their top players could pay it out of the change rattling around in the ashtray of the 4x4 ...

[jambovambo]

When did the OF ever have points deducted? And what are the 'other matters' you're thinking of?

 

He means they need punished by points deduction, to learn, not that they have had points deducted in the past.

 

The Roberts / Woods etc punchup / anything Boruc does / ... as examples ...

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

When did the OF ever have points deducted? And what are the 'other matters' you're thinking of?

 

Sorry, poorly worded, i meant that to stop the old firm and their "colourful away fans" a points deduction is the only thing thay will listen to. Fines dont hurt them.

[shaun.lawson]

He means they need punished by points deduction, to learn, not that they have had points deducted in the past.

 

The Roberts / Woods etc punchup / anything Boruc does / ... as examples ...

 

Ah. I thought he was referring to sectarian chants, which puzzled me a bit, given the line he usually takes on here!

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

He means they need punished by points deduction, to learn, not that they have had points deducted in the past.

 

The Roberts / Woods etc punchup / anything Boruc does / ... as examples ...

 

Like he said!

 

And me just above!

 

Great minds!

[jambovambo]

I feel an ultimately pointless and futile letter to Gordon Smith, he of the hair transplant, coming on ...

[shaun.lawson]

Sorry, poorly worded, i meant that to stop the old firm and their "colourful away fans" a points deduction is the only thing thay will listen to. Fines dont hurt them.

 

Again, I think it depends on the extent of the club's attempts to stop the problem. In the OF's case, I think it'd be pretty easy for them to put together a record of all their away fans, and ban troublemakers; their excuses simply don't wash. In Motherwell and Killie's cases, it depends on whether they did everything they could to ensure the games wouldn't be called off - particularly in the case of the former given their appalling recent record.

[Dr. Bapswent]

Fine are pointless and of no use to the people who are affected, the fans and the opposition team.

 

A fine would simply be more money to the SFA - useless.

 

And could easily damage clubs unnecessarily who are cash strapped.

 

The only sensible way is to forfeit the games points.

 

That way the opposition get the deserved reward, the club itself are not put into further financial jeopardy and the SPL dont profit.

 

Everyone who should be involved benefits or is punished accordingly.

[Cut The Crap]

Yep. I guarantee if you awarded the away team a 3-0 victory the problem would disappear like...er...snow off a dyke.

[jambovambo]

Again, I think it depends on the extent of the club's attempts to stop the problem. In the OF's case, I think it'd be pretty easy for them to put together a record of all their away fans, and ban troublemakers; their excuses simply don't wash. In Motherwell and Killie's cases, it depends on whether they did everything they could to ensure the games wouldn't be called off - particularly in the case of the former given their appalling recent record.

 

 

Let's not go there on this thread ...

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

I feel an ultimately pointless and futile letter to Gordon Smith, he of the hair transplant, coming on ...

 

If you do write to him please let him know i think he is a total ****.

 

Many thanks:)

[jambovambo]

If you do write to him please let him know i think he is a total ****.

 

Many thanks:)

 

I will pass on your best regards for the Festive season ...

 

GS "Santa, where should I put the Christmas Tree ?"

 

Santa "Stick it up your @rse"

 

GS "The view's not bad from here"

[shaun.lawson]

Fine are pointless and of no use to the people who are affected, the fans and the opposition team.

 

A fine would simply be more money to the SFA - useless.

 

And could easily damage clubs unnecessarily who are cash strapped.

 

The only sensible way is to forfeit the games points.

 

That way the opposition get the deserved reward, the club itself are not put into further financial jeopardy and the SPL dont profit.

 

Everyone who should be involved benefits or is punished accordingly.

 

So you'd do that for all postponed games? Where would the 'unreasonably postponed/reasonably postponed' line be? And how is it 'deserved reward' when a game hasn't been played in the first place? I think it'd be a disaster, and wholy unfair on those clubs not fortunate enough to have been the away team at a postponed game.

[Dr. Bapswent]

So you'd do that for all postponed games? Where would the 'unreasonably postponed/reasonably postponed' line be? And how is it 'deserved reward' when a game hasn't been played in the first place? I think it'd be a disaster, and wholy unfair on those clubs not fortunate enough to have been the away team at a postponed game.

 

Its the same issue for all postponed games.

 

Either they are postponed as a result of things within the clubs control, or outwith their control.

 

having working undersoil heating and covers puts the weather into the 'within control' category.

 

Obviously other circumstances can be deemed NOT the clubs fault.

 

But the issues that the club is responsible for should be dealt with through forfeiting the points.

 

Why should the opposition be put out by the home teams mistakes?

 

Why should the SFA profit?

[jambovambo]

So you'd do that for all postponed games? Where would the 'unreasonably postponed/reasonably postponed' line be? And how is it 'deserved reward' when a game hasn't been played in the first place? I think it'd be a disaster, and wholy unfair on those clubs not fortunate enough to have been the away team at a postponed game.

 

... which brings me neatly back to award-one-point-to-the-away-team-for- each-postponement-on-the-day

 

I think the on-the-day thing is correct.

 

If Killie and M'well had said on Friday "look, the heating's fecked / there's 18" of snow on the park", then that's valid. It happens, probably too much, but we wouldn't be debating it to this length.

[shaun.lawson]

Its the same issue for all postponed games.

 

Either they are postponed as a result of things within the clubs control, or outwith their control.

 

having working undersoil heating and covers puts the weather into the 'within control' category.

 

Obviously other circumstances can be deemed NOT the clubs fault.

 

But the issues that the club is responsible for should be dealt with through forfeiting the points.

 

Why should the opposition be put out by the home teams mistakes?

 

Why should the SFA profit?

 

It's the final day of the season: Hearts and Aberdeen are battling for the final UEFA Cup place. Aberdeen have a goal difference advantage of one, because they were granted a 3-0 win at Motherwell after having their game there postponed. We're all aware of and absolutely furious about this - but nothing can be done, and Aberdeen make it into Europe instead of us.

 

That's what I mean by those clubs not fortunate enough to be the away team in such a scenario being penalised! It goes against everything that a league competition involves.

[speedbump]

I fail to see why so many people are attempting to blame Gordon Smith/SFA for failing to ring these clubs to task. It's an SPL problem;)

[shaun.lawson]

... which brings me neatly back to award-one-point-to-the-away-team-for- each-postponement-on-the-day

 

I think the on-the-day thing is correct.

 

If Killie and M'well had said on Friday "look, the heating's fecked / there's 18" of snow on the park", then that's valid. It happens, probably too much, but we wouldn't be debating it to this length.

 

It's still wrong, JV - because if the game was rearranged, Motherwell won and took two points, we'd still have benefited in a manner wholly unfair to the other sides in the league. Similarly, if another side gained an extra point and made it into Europe at our expense, how would you feel?

[jambovambo]

It's still wrong, JV - because if the game was rearranged, Motherwell won and took two points, we'd still have benefited in a manner wholly unfair to the other sides in the league. Similarly, if another side gained an extra point and made it into Europe at our expense, how would you feel?

 

I see I'm going to have to work harder to wear you down on this one ...