h-e-a-r-t-s Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Clydesdale Bank Scottish Premier League Record Versus Top-Half Opposition Team Pld 1 Rangers 2 Celtic 3 Kilmarnock 4 Dundee United 5 Inverness C T 6 Falkirk 7 Aberdeen 8 Hibernian 9 St Mirren 10 Motherwell 11 Hamilton Academical 12 Heart of Midlothian http://stats.football365.com/dom/SCO/PR/vtophalf.html Clydesdale Bank Scottish Premier League Record Versus Bottom-Half Opposition Team Pld 1 Celtic 2 Heart of Midlothian 3 Rangers 4 Motherwell 5 Aberdeen 6 Dundee United 7 Hibernian 8 Inverness C T 9 St Mirren 10 Hamilton Academical 11 Falkirk 12 Kilmarnock http://stats.football365.com/dom/SCO/PR/vbothalf.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooba1874 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Wow thats pretty shocking when u look at it like that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewis2006 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 "Stat's are like mini-skirts..... they look good but hide what's important!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Well, if anything spells out what the problem might be...that does a decent enough job.... I'm concerned by the confidence to be honest, I'd be delighted with a draw for this one. Taking points off the top 2 is one thing, but taking full points is quite another. Would be nice though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 "Stat's are like mini-skirts..... they look good but hide what's important!" what a quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 hobos can't even get in the top 6 of either. 'cos they're pish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouse Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 "Stat's are like mini-skirts..... they look good but hide what's important!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim Tall Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Given we've only played 5 games against top half opposition while Hamilton/Motherwell/St Mirren/Aberdeen & Inverness have played 9, United and Falkirk 7, and Hibs 6. The stats are misleading to say the least... Even the OF have played more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I don't understand why it follows "we must win on Saturday". The first two things that spring to my mind is that first and foremost we must keep up our results against the bottom six and second we must take more points against the non-OF teams in the top six. A win or even draw on Saturday would be a very welcome bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewis2006 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 what a quote. 10 points if you can name the original quoter????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 10 points if you can name the original quoter????? IIRC ebbe skovdahl(sp) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewis2006 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 IIRC ebbe skovdahl(sp) Correct 10 points to you sir. Next for the hoilday to cyprus....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h-e-a-r-t-s Posted November 25, 2008 Author Share Posted November 25, 2008 I don't understand why it follows "we must win on Saturday". The first two things that spring to my mind is that first and foremost we must keep up our results against the bottom six and second we must take more points against the non-OF teams in the top six. A win or even draw on Saturday would be a very welcome bonus. the headline was for dramatic effect. although I do think it's important that we start taking points from these games in order that we maintain our current position throughout the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackney Hearts Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Is this based on the opposition's position now, or when we played them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h-e-a-r-t-s Posted November 25, 2008 Author Share Posted November 25, 2008 Is this based on the opposition's position now, or when we played them? that is a very good question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewis2006 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 that is a very good question. That's why stats like these are pretty useless. You can only beat what's put in front of you and seeing were 3rd we must be the 3rd best in the league at doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackney Hearts Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 that is a very good question. Cos for instance - when we played Hamilton away, they were 4th and both sides had the chance to go top, so long as Kilmarnock didn't win away at Tannadice (which they did). When we beat Motherwell 3-2 - what position were they?? I know they were tipped to be Top 4 material........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 The players should go out with the confidence that they can beat Rangers The fans should go / watch the game with the expectation that we wont. This would most likely lead to a scenario where we are factually more likely to get a result and less likely to be too upset if we dont As I said when we went to Ibrox, the performance is more important than the result IMO - to the extent that if we lose as long as it is not in the same manner that we lost against Celtic and we actually take the game to them and play on the front foot this it what counts. If we give the ball to them and play a sit back and counter attack game we'll be 2-0 down before the games 30 minutes old IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 As I said when we went to Ibrox, the performance is more important than the result IMO - to the extent that if we lose as long as it is not in the same manner that we lost against Celtic and we actually take the game to them and play on the front foot this it what counts. Agree with that. Csaba should find a recording of our first home game against Rangers last season, to show the attitude with which we should approach the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Given we've only played 5 games against top half opposition while Hamilton/Motherwell/St Mirren/Aberdeen & Inverness have played 9, United and Falkirk 7, and Hibs 6. The stats are misleading to say the least... Even the OF have played more. Well Spotted It must be said that our form in those five games hasn't been sparkling: Two Old Firm Defeats, A Creditable draw in Lochend, a defeat by Killie and a right gubbing at Tannadice. Still that's only five games There's also the question of whether the teams on 19 points (Hibs and Killie) are really a sufficiently different class from those on 17 & 18 (Motherwell, Inverness & Aberdeen ) to make the arbitrary distinction between them meaningfull. If results elsewhere change the occupants of 5th and 6th we could lose to Rangers and still see our 'performance against the top 6' show as having improved. After all; if the analysis is being used to suggest that Hearts' 3rd place is a false representation of their merit then presumably other teams are in false postions as well and the bottom six may not be the "real" bottom six. It also exposes a circularity in the logic. The assumption seems to be is that the causality is running one way only. Teams being in the bottom half means we do better than them. Actually it works the other way round. Most of them are in whichever half they're in because of how we've done against them (or how they've done against us). If Motherwell had won on Opening day they'd be 5th If Kilmarnock hadn't won at Tynecastle They'd be 10th. If Falkirk had they'd be 5th, If Hibs had conceded a late winner in the derby they'd be 8th. If Aberdeen had scored one at Tynecastle us they'd be 5th. If Inverness had beatun us twice they'd be 4th, 3rd if they'd done it by heavy margins That's not to say that the analysis is entirely meaningless merely that it exagerates what is going on There are two valid points Firstly our position is a bit flattering because we've had easier fixtures we've yet to play the Old Firm or Dundee United. We're doing better against slightly poorer teams and not so well against slightly better ones (No really) and possibly a bit more than one would normally expect. But it's easy to exagerate these points What is more striking is the reasoning that draws the original poster to conclude that the Rangers game is one we particularly "must win" Even if we accept the implication that we're currently good against the bottom teams and rotten against the middling and top teams surely the next objective would be efficiently taking out the middling teams. If there's a "must win" game coming up I'd say it's the one on the 20th against Dundee United. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 i think it might be possible to have paralysis of analysis here. you will get a fully evened out insight into how the team has performed against certain sides at the 22 game stage when everyone has played each other home and away. all that really matters at the end of the day is that the team gets the best possible result in each game as they come along. once it's over it's on to the next one. a tad obvious to say the least but valid nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Stinkfinger Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 So we are playing in two different leagues this season are we. Gosh what twaddle. I will pay most attention to the one we are currently lying third in and my free advice for the day we be for others to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 So we are playing in two different leagues this season are we.Gosh what twaddle. I will pay most attention to the one we are currently lying third in and my free advice for the day we be for others to do the same. of course we are auld boy, the real SPL and vlad's loony tunes notional league table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therapist Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Well Spotted It must be said that our form in those five games hasn't been sparkling: Two Old Firm Defeats, A Creditable draw in Lochend, a defeat by Killie and a right gubbing at Tannadice. Still that's only five games There's also the question of whether the teams on 19 points (Hibs and Killie) are really a sufficiently different class from those on 17 & 18 (Motherwell, Inverness & Aberdeen ) to make the arbitrary distinction between them meaningfull. If results elsewhere change the occupants of 5th and 6th we could lose to Rangers and still see our 'performance against the top 6' show as having improved. After all; if the analysis is being used to suggest that Hearts' 3rd place is a false representation of their merit then presumably other teams are in false postions as well and the bottom six may not be the "real" bottom six. It also exposes a circularity in the logic. The assumption seems to be is that the causality is running one way only. Teams being in the bottom half means we do better than them. Actually it works the other way round. Most of them are in whichever half they're in because of how we've done against them (or how they've done against us). If Motherwell had won on Opening day they'd be 5th If Kilmarnock hadn't won at Tynecastle They'd be 10th. If Falkirk had they'd be 5th, If Hibs had conceded a late winner in the derby they'd be 8th. If Aberdeen had scored one at Tynecastle us they'd be 5th. If Inverness had beatun us twice they'd be 4th, 3rd if they'd done it by heavy margins That's not to say that the analysis is entirely meaningless merely that it exagerates what is going on There are two valid points Firstly our position is a bit flattering because we've had easier fixtures we've yet to play the Old Firm or Dundee United. We're doing better against slightly poorer teams and not so well against slightly better ones (No really) and possibly a bit more than one would normally expect. But it's easy to exagerate these points What is more striking is the reasoning that draws the original poster to conclude that the Rangers game is one we particularly "must win" Even if we accept the implication that we're currently good against the bottom teams and rotten against the middling and top teams surely the next objective would be efficiently taking out the middling teams. If there's a "must win" game coming up I'd say it's the one on the 20th against Dundee United. Would I be right in thinking that you don't have much in your life other than football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Would I be right in thinking that you don't have much in your life other than football? No need to be embarrassed just because you find it complex. If you ask him nicely, I'm sure he'd be happy to talk you through it at a slower pace.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 It`s all mumbo jumbo, no offence to OP though. Hearts had a tremendous record against non OF teams in season 1997-98 but not that great against the OF. I think we got a draw and a defeat off both at home and away but we sustained a good season. I always believe the OF treat Hearts as a big game at Tynie therefore they actually raise their game that little bit more than normal. The key is to try and take points at crucial times in the season. After 4 wins on the trot the rest of the SPL will be thinking Hearts are going to drop points this week and see it as a chance to close on us. Getting a win this week would stick two fingers up at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davjambo Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Stats as usual can be used to prove or disprove any argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Would I be right in thinking that you don't have much in your life other than football? Surely there must be only one pressing question on your mind - which end to sit in on Saturday! Let's DO the Govan filth on Saturday and mess up those stats - and therapist - in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearts00 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Yep we were discussing this at the weekend. Despite the fact we are third we have not beaten a decent team this season yet - it is hard to include Motherwell as we beat them in the first game of the season and they defended abysmally. Not only that we have only scored three goals against top six teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Yep we were discussing this at the weekend. Despite the fact we are third we have not beaten a decent team this season yet - it is hard to include Motherwell as we beat them in the first game of the season and they defended abysmally. Not only that we have only scored three goals against top six teams. Last season after 15 games we were 7th with 20 points but had scored 4 against the huns in one game and 25 in total. We couldn't beat Gretna at home. Which do you prefer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeraNT Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 The forces of darkness have mostly whipped everyone else in the top league from the beginning of last century. Then they slug it out between themselves. To make an impression a team has to show consistency in crushing all non OF teams and believe they can take points of the OF as well. Today - at this moment in time - Hearts are poised with the chance to go on and do that. A win against the Huns, whether Celtic win or not, will simply change the dynamics of the SPL and the run into the New Year. We have to go into this match, confident that we are going to turn the Huns over. Players and supporters alike should be thinking that. This is a bit of a six pointer that could pull us into a cushion between fourth and second place. Its one of these "tests" to see if the Jambo revival is rea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 The forces of darkness have mostly whipped everyone else in the top league from the beginning of last century. Then they slug it out between themselves. To make an impression a team has to show consistency in crushing all non OF teams and believe they can take points of the OF as well. Today - at this moment in time - Hearts are poised with the chance to go on and do that. A win against the Huns, whether Celtic win or not, will simply change the dynamics of the SPL and the run into the New Year. We have to go into this match, confident that we are going to turn the Huns over. Players and supporters alike should be thinking that. This is a bit of a six pointer that could pull us into a cushion between fourth and second place. Its one of these "tests" to see if the Jambo revival is rea. What you are saying is of course correct Vera although it would be more realistic to hope/expect a draw given the fragile nature of our form thus far this season - still we have to 'believe' in our own improvement and we certainly cannot let ourselves fear them or we're already losing.....c'mon Hearts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Would I be right in thinking that you don't have much in your life other than football? I'd guess he doesn't feel compelled to leave at half time when we have played some nice stuff and pulled back from going behind to 1-1 with a "world class goal". But I suppose we can't all be blessed with your over-full life. Congrats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Would I be right in thinking that you don't have much in your life other than football? Poor response to a very good post by TC. Maybe his intelligence makes you feel jealous, Mr T? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 The assumption seems to be is that the causality is running one way only. You appear to be talking gibberish. Your sentence makes no sense at all. Did you mean "The assumption seems to be that the causality is running one way only"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBjambo Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 I'll take another ugly 1 nil win... Nade to score! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 You appear to be talking gibberish. Your sentence makes no sense at all. Did you mean "The assumption seems to be that the causality is running one way only"? Now that's a put down! Take note Therapist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 The 'easier games' like the arabs 1pt from 6 v hamilton, killies home defeat to inverness, hibs 1pt from 6 v st mirren & inverness recently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 The 'easier games' like the arabs 1pt from 6 v hamilton, killies home defeat to inverness, hibs 1pt from 6 v st mirren & inverness recently Yep, easier because they have a better chance of points. Unlike when they play the OF or better sides.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Maybe easier for us but not for those below us it would seem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Quite an amusing set of issues to fall out about. First - We have put a run together which involves beating gash teams. This is good. This is something we havent done for 4 years. 1. put a run together, and 2. consistently beat gash teams. Second - of course we need to raise our level to start beating the mid-tier teams - Dundee Utd, Aberdeen, Hibs. But we havent yet had a run of games against them when we have been grinding out winning performances as we have in the last 4. I'll pop my head back in here in 5 weeks or so to see if there remains anything to discuss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 We have to bicker about something jammy or what's the point? anyway to kill the easier games myth the arabs have taken more points from the OF than Accies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 We have to bicker about something jammy or what's the point? anyway to kill the easier games myth the arabs have taken more points from the OF than Accies We dont have to bicker about EVERYTHING though, surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 No we don't have to bicker about everything but having dissected the minutae of spl pts won people can now rake over 2-3 year old events Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 By the way if you're using the league table to determine which teams present the stiffest opposition you should presumably rank them in order of how many points their opponents have earned rather than how many they have earned. Kilmarnock(W8, D1, L6) sit 3 points clear of Falkirk(W7, D4, L4) but their opponents have dropped 20 points against each of them. Table based on Points gained Celtic W13, D1, L1, Pts 40 Rangers W11, D3, L1, Pts 36 Hearts W8, D2, L5, Pts 26 Dundee Utd W6, D5, L4, Pts 23 Hibernian W5, D4, L6, Pts 19 Kilmarnock W6, D1, L8, Pts 19 Aberdeen W5, D3, L7, Pts 18 Inverness CT W5, D2, L8, Pts 17 Motherwell W5, D2, L8, Pts 17 Falkirk W4, D4, L7, Pts 16 St Mirren W3, D3, L9, Pts 12 Hamilton W3, D2, L10, Pts 11 Table based on Points gained by opponents Celtic W1, D1, L13, Pts 4 Rangers W1, D3, L11, Pts 6 Hearts W5, D2, L8, Pts 17 Dundee Utd W4, D5, L6, Pts 17 Hibernian W6, D4, L5, Pts 22 Aberdeen W7, D3, L5, Pts 24 Kilmarnock W8, D1, L6, Pts 25 Falkirk W7, D4, L4, Pts 25 Motherwell W8, D2, L5, Pts 26 Inverness CT W8, D2, L5, Pts 26 St Mirren W9, D3, L3, Pts 30 Hamilton W10, D2, L3, Pts 32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 We have to bicker about something jammy or what's the point? anyway to kill the easier games myth the arabs have taken more points from the OF than Accies AYe, your right. Based on two matches between Dundee United and Hamilton, it is now a myth that matches against the OF are harder than matches against the other teams. The hundred years of circumstancial evidence which shows the OF win significantly more matches than any other team is probably just a freak occurance, and because United failed to win twice against Hamilton, clearly playing Hamilton is no more difficult than playing the OF. Your wild application of logic to try and justify your viewpoints staggers me at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Utd also struggled against gretna last season as well, the other teams are carving each other up, there are no easy games for anyone from 3rd down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Utd also struggled against gretna last season as well, the other teams are carving each other up, there are no easy games for anyone from 3rd down. To be fair Dundee Utd nearly always find it easy against us.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Utd & Killie have done well against us in recent games however dropped points in the 'easier' games is the reason they're below us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 We have to bicker about something jammy or what's the point? anyway to kill the easier games myth the arabs have taken more points from the OF than Accies Utd also struggled against gretna last season as well, the other teams are carving each other up, there are no easy games for anyone from 3rd down. Saying that there are "No easy games" is reasonable enough (if somewhat cliched) Exagerating that to the point where you deny that there are 'easier games' is blatantly counterfactual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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