Credit (Suisse) where it is due

[Jammy T]

Being a realist I've got to put my hands together and applaud the run of 3 wins last week.

 

None of it was pretty by all accounts, none particularly enthralling, but sadly "3 wins on the trot" in the league has become a rarity under Romanov, so credit where it is due. 3 wins, 3 clean sheets suggests that discipline, organisation and determination has wandered back down Gorgie Road into the players physche.

 

I think we have achieved this only another twice since Burley. Valdas did it in Autumn 06, Frail did it after Xmas last year. (as an aside Frail STILL has a better league record than Csaba - Frail was 2 points further ahead after 14 games. Whether people like that stat or not it remains a fact)

 

So a win-able game at the weekend would see Csaba have the best run of results since Burley.

 

Zaliukas has proven he can play in a Hearts team that can keep clean sheets

 

So has Robbie Neilson for that matter. Indeed I'd go as far as to say that some of those traits I mentioned above have become more evident since his return.

 

I'm usually a believer that a run of wins ground out such as last week should be the precursor to better confidence leading to better football and a general sustenance of that run of form. So the next 3 or 4 games are key to establish whether this was just a blip of being due a couple of results or whether things are genuinely improving.

 

I still do not think the formation gives us our best chance of achieving this run of form and I still think our total lack of flexibility allows other teams plenty opportunity to out tactic us, but the stats do not lie that we are currently in a run of results we have only had another twice in 3 years.

 

That may say something of itself of course but one step at a time

[JamboAl]

Being a realist I've got to put my hands together and applaud the run of 3 wins last week.

 

None of it was pretty by all accounts, none particularly enthralling, but sadly "3 wins on the trot" in the league has become a rarity under Romanov, so credit where it is due. 3 wins, 3 clean sheets suggests that discipline, organisation and determination has wandered back down Gorgie Road into the players physche.

 

I think we have achieved this only another twice since Burley. Valdas did it in Autumn 06, Frail did it after Xmas last year. (as an aside Frail STILL has a better league record than Csaba - Frail was 2 points further ahead after 14 games. Whether people like that stat or not it remains a fact)

 

So a win-able game at the weekend would see Csaba have the best run of results since Burley.

 

Zaliukas has proven he can play in a Hearts team that can keep clean sheets

 

So has Robbie Neilson for that matter. Indeed I'd go as far as to say that some of those traits I mentioned above have become more evident since his return.

 

I'm usually a believer that a run of wins ground out such as last week should be the precursor to better confidence leading to better football and a general sustenance of that run of form. So the next 3 or 4 games are key to establish whether this was just a blip of being due a couple of results or whether things are genuinely improving.

 

I still do not think the formation gives us our best chance of achieving this run of form and I still think our total lack of flexibility allows other teams plenty opportunity to out tactic us, but the stats do not lie that we are currently in a run of results we have only had another twice in 3 years.

 

That may say something of itself of course but one step at a time

 

Post should be deleted - it talks too much common sense.

It is a good run and from Csaba's point it suggests he is very lucky or he is a master tactician at using the resources available to him bearing in mind that Obua and Neilson have just come back and that Kingston,Tullberg, Chesney, Mrowiec and Miko are out injured.

It must also be remembered that Csaba himself is also learning about the SPL and it may be significant, or maybe not, that the teams we have beaten recently are all teams we have played before, so possibly he has learned from our first encounter with these teams.

[The Old Tolbooth]

I agree with most of your post mate, apart from Zaliukas, I still feel we should have him as cover and put someone else in there as he's an accident waiting to happen, that aside (as I don't wish to turn this into a player bashing thread) I reckon your on the money.

 

Whilst the style of football we're playing is very sore on the eyes, it appears that we're trying to pick up points "ugly style" for the time being until Csaba can hopefully bring in some players of his own, although if anyone expects "world beaters" to be brought in in January, then they can think again because theres no budget.

 

I liked the Hamilton left back against us (cant remember his name), he looked pretty solid and could bolster the defence.

 

As for our 3 game winning run, a run like that in this league is bound to propel you right up there because no one else is any good, it's probably the worst standard I've seen for years from all teams. I also think it would be harder to take right now if Hibs were any good, but thankfully they're actually worse than us!

[Jammy T]

Post should be deleted - it talks too much common sense.

It is a good run and from Csaba's point it suggests he is very lucky or he is a master tactician at using the resources available to him bearing in mind that Obua and Neilson have just come back and that Kingston,Tullberg, Chesney, Mrowiec and Miko are out injured.

It must also be remembered that Csaba himself is also learning about the SPL and it may be significant, or maybe not, that the teams we have beaten recently are all teams we have played before, so possibly he has learned from our first encounter with these teams.

 

There are various observations which could be made of the games (our lowest regular percentage of Kaunas players per game for a long time for example), but it risks over analysing what essentially were games against limited but stuffy teams.

 

We're coming up against a slightly higher basic standard of footballing team over the next few games so I think this will help provide a clear picture of where we stand

 

I am personally a little more comfortable that we will not be bottom 4 than I was a week ago - but we've still got what will no doubt be another traumatic transfer window to go through in 6 weeks. The more points we get before then the better.

[Jammy T]

I agree with most of your post mate, apart from Zaliukas, I still feel we should have him as cover and put someone else in there as he's an accident waiting to happen, that aside (as I don't wish to turn this into a player bashing thread) I reckon your on the money.

 

 

Oh no - we dont differ on that at all.

 

But one of my concerns and arguments over the majority of this season is that we dont keep clean sheets with him in the team. We have done now twice in a row now so its only fair that I re-assess part of my argument against him

 

I think another observation I would have is that he tends to do better when he has been out the team and comes back in - his concentration seems better. Then 3 or 4 games in the arrogance and over confidence comes back and he starts trying things he cant do, and doing things which put us into trouble

[Victor Meldrew]

The OP speaks a lot of sense.

 

I think it's worth remembering that it's not merely 3 wins on the trot, but 1 defeat in 6 games, that defeat being the Celtic game.

 

I'm a great believer that you need to start buildingnthe team from the defence: stop conceding goals and you make your team hard to beat. When those foundations have been laid, you can concentrate on going out to win games.

 

I think it is noteworthy that Csaba hsn't really had much of an opportunity to bring in his own players, and that we have been unlucky with injuries to the ones he has brought in (Tulberg, Obua, Mrowiec).

 

There has been a big difference since Bruno came back (the start of the run of 6 games with one defeat) and the return of Robbie Neilson (3 clean sheets in a row). Hopefully we are entering a phase where we can have a settled team that is difficult to break down and beat.

 

I know it isn't very pretty to watch, but I frimly believe that if we can make it through to January and still be in with a shout, Csaba can strengthen the team and we can have a good second half of the season. Who knows, with a kind draw in the Cup, we could do OK.

[Jammy T]

 

I think it's worth remembering that it's not merely 3 wins on the trot, but 1 defeat in 6 games, that defeat being the Celtic game.

 

I'm a great believer that you need to start buildingnthe team from the defence: stop conceding goals and you make your team hard to beat.

 

I agree with both separate points here. Yes - we've gone from one win in 7 to 1 defeat in 6.

 

But the defence part.

 

Totally agree and this is what frustrated me most about the first 11 games.

 

We were playing a pretty defensive formation with a defender in midfield yet we were still losing more goals more regularly than I can remember recently.

 

I still am not convinced that all of a sudden we have sorted the defence out, but this set up has proven it can keep clean sheets.

 

We now have something going that confidence should be built upon

 

BUT the margins we are playing to are very narrow, and I think we remain a couple of decisions / mistakes away from another run of games with not many wins

[davieholt]

Agree entirely with the OP.

 

Sure, we are winning ugly (in fact ugly is too good for what we are playing) but let's remember that Csaba doesn't do this deliberately. In the midweek game we played 4 up in the first half most of the time. If a couple of the chances made had been taken there would have been no need for the nervy backs-to-the-wall last 20 minutes.

 

Comes back to the lack of a decent striker and Csaba can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear !

 

Here is hoping for January

[Ben Dover]

Credit to the boys for grinding them out but it will be a different test on Saturday in many ways, especially if the Bairns try and have a go at us ?

Three wins, in any normal period ought to provide the spring board for us play with a bit confidence and flair.

However I thought that was actually appearing, after fine displays against two of the better clubs, Hobos and Aberdeen.

However we just collapsed against the Tic, but to be honest I've seen much better Hearts sides than this fail to 'turn up' against them, so - disappointing as it was - I was quite willing to write that off as a blip.

The Hamilton performance was dire though and I personally, like Vlad, am only willing to write off so much

We have to translate points on the board into self belief and to play more positively. We showed we can do it in the two games I mentioned so come on lads .........."lets be avvin you" on Saturday

 

As regards Csaba's learning process though ..........does it really take a round of games to realise that a particular 45 mins was crap and something should be changed to alter the course of events in the next 45 ?

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Sure, we are winning ugly (in fact ugly is too good for what we are playing) but let's remember that Csaba doesn't do this deliberately.

 

He does, according to Csaba.

 

"That is a new situation in the next two games. I hope in those games the team can also win 1-0' date=' that is my intention, no more!"

[/quote']

 

http://www.heartsfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/HeartsNewsDetail/0,,10289~1455976,00.html

[davieholt]

He does, according to Csaba.

 

 

 

http://www.heartsfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/HeartsNewsDetail/0,,10289~1455976,00.html

 

OK JR, point taken, but why then did he keep 4 up (in the first half) AFTER Nade scored ?

[Seymour M Hersh]

He does, according to Csaba.

 

 

 

http://www.heartsfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/HeartsNewsDetail/0,,10289~1455976,00.html

 

I suppose most other managers will tell the press I want to win 3-0 or 4-0 that is my intention, no less?

[Jammy T]

 

As regards Csaba's learning process though ..........does it really take a round of games to realise that a particular 45 mins was crap and something should be changed to alter the course of events in the next 45 ?

 

My view is that Csaba's learning process is relatively slow. I am also concerned about how effectively he gets his message across.

 

Having started well at the beginning of the season and, by all accounts, moved the ball about better than we have for a couple of seasons this seems to have fallen away - surely the pass and move stuff should get better as it beds in, not worse?

 

I agree that Csaba appears to be revelling just a little too much in winning ugly.

 

But what I dont understand is - why tightening up defensively means that we lose the ability to pass the ball and control a game in midfield. By all means play with only one guy anywhere near the box but try and at least knock the ball about a bit and retain possession.

 

We are coming up against some better teams than we played last week. As I said it will be interesting to see if we can handle them. This appears to be the way things are moving. Not if they can handle us, but if we can handle them

 

As I said, though, it has worked for 3 games, and it is difficult to argue against if it continues to be a success

 

Small margins though. Small margins

[Charlie-Brown]

Good posts jammy and very little to disagree with ..... regards the small margins, small margins applies not only to us but for virtually every team from 3rd-12th win or lose - for instance even the Old Firm only scraped by St Mirren & Hamilton by the odd goal at the weekend - and for the rest of the teams it's as tight as i can remember in terms of there not being very much of a gulf in quality between the teams although some teams are better than others but not by very much and even then their form is fluctuating.

[Jammy T]

Good posts jammy and very little to disagree with ..... regards the small margins, small margins applies not only to us but for virtually every team from 3rd-12th win or lose - for instance even the Old Firm only scraped by St Mirren & Hamilton by the odd goal at the weekend - and for the rest of the teams it's as tight as i can remember in terms of there not being very much of a gulf in quality between the teams although some teams are better than others but not by very much and even then their form is fluctuating.

 

Yes - but those small margins when adding everything together about Hearts, and our general standing should come out in our favour more often than not.

 

We have no devine right to anything, but with our resources and foundation of talent (the basics of which i believe we have - Berra, Driver, Aguiar, Jonsson, Nade) we should not be far behind the old firm, or certainly we should be ahead of most other teams, in ensuring that the margin favours us week in week out - especially at home.

 

If the last 3 games are evidence we are turning the corner, fair dues. If the previous 6 games are the norm, the margins have not yet turned

[Charlie-Brown]

In 6 SPL games at the weekend we had 4 games won by 1 goal, a draw and a 2 goal victory for Kilmarnock over the Arabs and it's been like that most weeks of the season although the Old Firm have dished out a fair few drubbings and our 2 goal defeats to them don't look so bad however dispiriting they were at the time - regards our games they have all been very very close with small margins either way as you say - the wins over the bottom teams could easily have been drawn or lost with a little bit less luck - the draws & defeats against Hibs,Aberdeen, Killie & Falkirk could have been won or drawn with a little bit more luck - so it has kinda evened itself out and we sit third having won more games than anybody else below the Old Firm and prior to the 2nd round of fixtures Dundee Utd and Kilmarnock were only above us courtesy of having won 3 points in their head to head with us, they took less points from all the other teams than we did so are they actually doing much if any better than we are?

[Jammy T]

In 6 SPL games at the weekend we had 4 games won by 1 goal, a draw and a 2 goal victory for Kilmarnock over the Arabs and it's been like that most weeks of the season although the Old Firm have dished out a fair few drubbings and our 2 goal defeats to them don't look so bad however dispiriting they were at the time - regards our games they have all been very very close with small margins either way as you say - the wins over the bottom teams could easily have been drawn or lost with a little bit less luck - the draws & defeats against Hibs,Aberdeen, Killie & Falkirk could have been won or drawn with a little bit more luck - so it has kinda evened itself out and we sit third having won more games than anybody else below the Old Firm and prior to the 2nd round of fixtures Dundee Utd and Kilmarnock were only above us courtesy of having won 3 points in their head to head with us, they took less points from all the other teams than we did so are they actually doing much if any better than we are?

 

I still dont particularly care just how desperately poor the other teams are.

 

We should take no pleasure or satisfaction in being less of a failure than 9 poor footballing teams.

 

It may allow you to justify certain things in your own head but it is no measure of anything positive.

 

It actually backs the argument that we have been decimated by Romanov because we are now worse than we were before he arrived

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Dundee Utd and Kilmarnock were only above us courtesy of having won 3 points in their head to head with us, they took less points from all the other teams than we did so are they actually doing much if any better than we are?

 

 

Yes, because they are spending about a fifth of the budget to acheive the same results. Just as the OF are doing ****e if they are NOT way ahead of us - because they spend a lot more than we do.

 

I'm sure you'll have an excuse for that too though.

[Walter Kidd]

Yes, because they are spending about a fifth of the budget to acheive the same results. Just as the OF are doing ****e if they are NOT way ahead of us - because they spend a lot more than we do.

 

I'm sure you'll have an excuse for that too though.

 

JR

 

I'd be surprised if our wage bill is any where near where it was with the figures you keep trotting out.

 

Just an observation and not critical of your point of view.

[Cut The Crap]

My view is that Csaba's learning process is relatively slow. I am also concerned about how effectively he gets his message across.

 

Having started well at the beginning of the season and, by all accounts, moved the ball about better than we have for a couple of seasons this seems to have fallen away - surely the pass and move stuff should get better as it beds in, not worse?

 

I agree that Csaba appears to be revelling just a little too much in winning ugly.

 

But what I dont understand is - why tightening up defensively means that we lose the ability to pass the ball and control a game in midfield. By all means play with only one guy anywhere near the box but try and at least knock the ball about a bit and retain possession.

 

We are coming up against some better teams than we played last week. As I said it will be interesting to see if we can handle them. This appears to be the way things are moving. Not if they can handle us, but if we can handle them

 

As I said, though, it has worked for 3 games, and it is difficult to argue against if it continues to be a success

 

Small margins though. Small margins

 

Whether deliberately or not, the passing and movement we saw at the start of the season appears to have been abandoned. As soon the ball is with Balogh, the defence - almost as one - turn their backs on the goalkeeper and start jogging towards half-way to await the hoof.

 

However, maybe that's all it takes to be best of the rest in this league. Falkirk by all accounts delight their fans with some neat passing and yet languish seven points behind us in the table. I guess we'll get the chance to compare the effectiveness of the two styles soon enough.

[topcat]

Dundee Utd and Kilmarnock were only above us courtesy of having won 3 points in their head to head with us, they took less points from all the other teams than we did so are they actually doing much if any better than we are?

 

I don't understand this thought process where you keep trying to ignore the Head to Head results when comparing our performances

 

After all there were half a dozen teams who got between 14 and 16 points from their first round of 11 games. If we ignore the 15 "head to head" games between them we've ignored half their results.

 

The other confusion is you switch from past tense (referring to the position after eleven games) to the present (the current position after 14).

[Guest JamboRobbo]

JR

 

I'd be surprised if our wage bill is any where near where it was with the figures you keep trotting out.

 

Just an observation and not critical of your point of view.

 

What do you think our wage bill is mate?

 

Last accounts showed it was 12.49M.

 

I'm figuring it's down a bit since then, I'm estimating somewhere between 8-10M for us, with Utd somewhere about 2-3M, and Killie about 1.5-2M.

 

Vlad said when he arrived, he was aiming at a 10M wage bill per year for the club.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

To put things in perspective, here's that wage bills from 2 years ago from PWC report.

 

Aberdeen 4.3M

Celtic 32.5M

Falkirk 1.65M

Dundee Utd 2.8M

Dunfermline 1.7M

Hearts 10M

Hibs 3.6M

Inverness 1.3M

Killie 3.3M

Livi 1.2M

Motherwell 2.5M

Rangers 28M

 

 

Pretty clear looking at those why merely competing with the other also rans is, IMO, underacheiving. We should be well clear in third given the relative amounts of money we spend on wages.

 

The ratio of financial advantage the OF have over us, is about the same ratio that we have over the non-OF teams (approx 3 or 4-1).

[Jammy T]

I don't understand this thought process where you keep trying to ignore......

 

Welcome to my world

 

I could reply to many of NMHs posts with those precise words quoted above

 

What he appears to be saying is, apart from when we play the other teams closest to us in the league we are better than them, but when we play them we are worse than them...and this is a good thing for Hearts

 

I think this is a fairly standard NMH logic to be honest

 

That aside, I'm trying very hard to avoid getting drawn into a debate that I see as entirely irrelevant to much in any event...

[Walter Kidd]

What do you think our wage bill is mate?

 

Last accounts showed it was 12.49M.

 

I'm figuring it's down a bit since then, I'm estimating somewhere between 8-10M for us, with Utd somewhere about 2-3M, and Killie about 1.5-2M.

 

Vlad said when he arrived, he was aiming at a 10M wage bill per year for the club.

 

I am sure (or more than willing to accept I am wrong) but those figures included Jankauskas, Bednar, Pressley, Hartley, Gordon etc and new figures will be nowhere near that 12million.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I am sure (or more than willing to accept I am wrong) but those figures included Jankauskas, Bednar, Pressley, Hartley, Gordon etc and new figures will be nowhere near that 12million.

 

The problem being, we replaced them with the likes of Nade, Tullberg, Kingston, Palazuelos etc......we'll see what the figures are in the next accounts, but I'll be surprised if we've reduced it by much more than 2.5M (which would take us back down to 10M again).

 

Oh, and Bednar wasn't on Hearts wage bill at the time of the quoted accounts (although he was later).

[Walter Kidd]

The problem being, we replaced them with the likes of Nade, Tullberg, Kingston, Palazuelos etc......we'll see what the figures are in the next accounts, but I'll be surprised if we've reduced it by much more than 2.5M (which would take us back down to 10M again).

 

Oh, and Bednar wasn't on Hearts wage bill at the time of the quoted accounts (although he was later).

 

I'd be surprised if any with the exception of Kingston possibly would be close to what we were paying that lot.

 

Wasn't Gordon on something ridiculous like ?18k a week?

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I'd be surprised if any with the exception of Kingston possibly would be close to what we were paying that lot.

 

Wasn't Gordon on something ridiculous like ?18k a week?

 

12k basic plus 6k win bonus allegedly.

 

Nade and Tullberg came from premiership and Serie A. I'd be surprised if we're not paying them a decent whack, at least in the same ballpark as the other players you listed.

[JamboAl]

The problem being, we replaced them with the likes of Nade, Tullberg, Kingston, Palazuelos etc......we'll see what the figures are in the next accounts, but I'll be surprised if we've reduced it by much more than 2.5M (which would take us back down to 10M again).

 

Oh, and Bednar wasn't on Hearts wage bill at the time of the quoted accounts (although he was later).

 

Jankauskas at the end was lazy, Pressley was slower than an old horse, Hartley only had eyes for Celtic, Bednar too had thrown in the towel while Gordon was always going to be going - in fact he would have been gone if VR had not upped his wages and we would not have got anywhere near ?9m.

The accounts you talk about are 16 months out of date since when the Gordon and Bednar fees came in as did the debt for equity but like everything else you are guessing at the wage bill from a biased viewpoint and I doubt if you have any knowledge of what other clubs are currently paying. BTW Bednar's salary was in the last published accounts.

Anyhow to get back to the subject of the post, 9 points are 9 points and I say well done to Csaba because he would carry the can if we lost 9 out of 9.

[Walter Kidd]

12k basic plus 6k win bonus allegedly.

 

Nade and Tullberg came from premiership and Serie A. I'd be surprised if we're not paying them a decent whack, at least in the same ballpark as the other players you listed.

 

 

Having said that Pedro Lopez was doing the contracts.

[K1874M]

Gotta be happy...

 

We're having trouble scoring goals and guess thats why we've been so defensive, ship none and you only need one rather than ship 2 and need 3.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Jankauskas at the end was lazy, Pressley was slower than an old horse, Hartley only had eyes for Celtic, Bednar too had thrown in the towel while Gordon was always going to be going - in fact he would have been gone if VR had not upped his wages and we would not have got anywhere near ?9m.

 

All well and good, but makes no differece to what I was discussing in my post, so I don't see why you're telling me that?

 

The accounts you talk about are 16 months out of date since when the Gordon and Bednar fees came in as did the debt for equity but like everything else you are guessing at the wage bill from a biased viewpoint and I doubt if you have any knowledge of what other clubs are currently paying.

 

Fees coming in and debt for equity make no difference to the wage bill.

 

I'm just looking at the facts as we have them. Last accounts were 12.49M. I reckon our wage bill will have come down a bit in the next accounts published, to somewhere around 10M I don't think thats biased, just an estimate of where it's likely to be at in the next accounts.

 

The figures I listed for other teams is taken from independent PWC report from 2 years ago. I doubt it's changed significantly since then, but feel free to list any evidence that it has.

 

BTW Bednar's salary was in the last published accounts.

 

But NOT in the figures I listed above, which were for the year before, when Bednar was being paid by Kaunus. With Bednars salary in there, our wage bill was up at 12.49M.

 

Anyhow to get back to the subject of the post, 9 points are 9 points and I say well done to Csaba because he would carry the can if we lost 9 out of 9.

 

Apologies for having a discussion with a fellow poster, as opposed to sticking to JamboAl's strictly chosen subject matter which must not be deviated from in any way.

[Jarhead]

Gotta be happy...

 

We're having trouble scoring goals and guess thats why we've been so defensive, ship none and you only need one rather than ship 2 and need 3.

 

That's kind of how it looks to me.

I also agree with the POV that says this leaves us with a slim margin of error with the hibs and Aberdeen games being good examples of this.

I've got to say though, even coming under a lot of pressure in the 2nd half of the last two games I've never felt seriously worried that we were going to lose a goal. It seems like a long time since I have felt that way.

The question is, what has changed? Neilsons return, Wallace cutting out the mistakes or Kingston being injured (or is it dropped)?

[topcat]

Fees coming in and debt for equity make no difference to the wage bill.

 

Apart from allowing it to actually be paid

(usually on time)

[Jammy T]

 

Yup which was the point - and well done to the players, and the committee

[Jammy T]

Neilsons return, Wallace cutting out the mistakes or Kingston being injured (or is it dropped)?

 

Some of all of those?

 

The lack of passengers.

 

I guess we cant put the mediocrity of the opposition out of the picture altogether though

 

Have there been any passengers in the last 3 games - I dont mean in respect of lack of skill, but attitude and application?

 

Nade busting a...ahem...gut, defence all putting in a shift etc

[Charlie-Brown]

I don't understand this thought process where you keep trying to ignore the Head to Head results when comparing our performances

 

After all there were half a dozen teams who got between 14 and 16 points from their first round of 11 games. If we ignore the 15 "head to head" games between them we've ignored half their results.

 

The other confusion is you switch from past tense (referring to the position after eleven games) to the present (the current position after 14).

 

Okay I got my tense's incorrect TC - the main point i was making was not that you can or should ignore the head to head games - of course not - the point I was making was people have said we only beat the bottom teams and we now have harder games to play which is true and that Utd & Killie have easier games to play which is also true however the point is they didn't do any better than we did against those other teams than we did - we actually did better against the rest than they did given we shipped 3 points to both of them yet only ended up marginally behind them and have since overtaken them.

[JamboAl]

All well and good, but makes no differece to what I was discussing in my post, so I don't see why you're telling me that?

 

It is hard to tell what you were discussing at post #26.

 

Fees coming in and debt for equity make no difference to the wage bill.

 

It is all relative but as with debt, wages could also reduce dramatically and the fact is you don't have a bloody clue what the wages are aside from bitter biased guesses.

 

I'm just looking at the facts as we have them. Last accounts were 12.49M. I reckon our wage bill will have come down a bit in the next accounts published, to somewhere around 10M I don't think thats biased, just an estimate of where it's likely to be at in the next accounts.

 

You reckon but you don't know. You're trying to put a negative slant on Jammy T's post which is that we won 9 points out of 9.

 

The figures I listed for other teams is taken from independent PWC report from 2 years ago. I doubt it's changed significantly since then, but feel free to list any evidence that it has.

 

But you don't know.

 

But NOT in the figures I listed above, which were for the year before, when Bednar was being paid by Kaunus. With Bednars salary in there, our wage bill was up at 12.49M.

 

I cannot argue with you as regards Bednar's salary being paid by HMFC or Kaunus but you are naive in the extreme if you think Bednar's salary was paid for us by Kaunus. The charge for loanees will be somewhere else in the accounts if not in salaries etc.

 

 

Apologies for having a discussion with a fellow poster, as opposed to sticking to JamboAl's strictly chosen subject matter which must not be deviated from in any way.

 

 

It was not JamboAl's chosen subject matter, smart arse - look again at the OP which was about winning games not negative repetitive drivel about who pays salaries and which club pays the highest wages. We won 3 games on the trot and although the fare on offer was not particularly good it gets us up the league and that's what I think is niggling you - you want us to fail to prove you right.

[Genghis Khan]

It was not JamboAl's chosen subject matter, smart arse - look again at the OP which was about winning games not negative repetitive drivel about who pays salaries and which club pays the highest wages. We won 3 games on the trot and although the fare on offer was not particularly good it gets us up the league and that's what I think is niggling you - you want us to fail to prove you right.

 

Tell you what Al - the lack of people talking about forming protest movements etc kind of backs up your point. It's amazing what 9/9 does for morale, eh?

 

After the 'Tic game, you would have thought that the world was about to implode.

[Charlie-Brown]

To put things in perspective, here's that wage bills from 2 years ago from PWC report.

 

Aberdeen 4.3M

Celtic 32.5M

Falkirk 1.65M

Dundee Utd 2.8M

Dunfermline 1.7M

Hearts 10M

Hibs 3.6M

Inverness 1.3M

Killie 3.3M

Livi 1.2M

Motherwell 2.5M

Rangers 28M

 

 

Pretty clear looking at those why merely competing with the other also rans is, IMO, underacheiving. We should be well clear in third given the relative amounts of money we spend on wages.

 

The ratio of financial advantage the OF have over us, is about the same ratio that we have over the non-OF teams (approx 3 or 4-1).

 

There are more up to date figures available for many of these teams JR - what we don't have is up to date figures for Hearts and we don't know by how much the wage bill was reduced in 2007-08 and what it is now in 2008-09 - I think Hearts total wage bill has come down considerably from it's peak in 2006-07 and will reduce still further but that is just my opinion - I have no more facts or speculations to back up these claims than you or anyone else.

[Charlie-Brown]

To put things in perspective, here's that wage bills from 2 years ago from PWC report.

 

Aberdeen 4.3M

Celtic 32.5M

Falkirk 1.65M

Dundee Utd 2.8M

Dunfermline 1.7M

Hearts 10M

Hibs 3.6M

Inverness 1.3M

Killie 3.3M

Livi 1.2M

Motherwell 2.5M

Rangers 28M

 

 

Pretty clear looking at those why merely competing with the other also rans is, IMO, underacheiving. We should be well clear in third given the relative amounts of money we spend on wages.

 

The ratio of financial advantage the OF have over us, is about the same ratio that we have over the non-OF teams (approx 3 or 4-1).

 

When these figures were current only the Old Firm & Aberdeen finished higher than Hearts in the SPL as we finished 4th - so we did worse than Aberdeen but better than the rest - it was also Aberdeen's best season in approx a decade.

[Captain Lithuania]

Being a realist I've got to put my hands together and applaud the run of 3 wins last week.

 

None of it was pretty by all accounts, none particularly enthralling, but sadly "3 wins on the trot" in the league has become a rarity under Romanov, so credit where it is due. 3 wins, 3 clean sheets suggests that discipline, organisation and determination has wandered back down Gorgie Road into the players physche.

 

I think we have achieved this only another twice since Burley. Valdas did it in Autumn 06, Frail did it after Xmas last year. (as an aside Frail STILL has a better league record than Csaba - Frail was 2 points further ahead after 14 games. Whether people like that stat or not it remains a fact)

 

So a win-able game at the weekend would see Csaba have the best run of results since Burley.

 

Zaliukas has proven he can play in a Hearts team that can keep clean sheets

 

So has Robbie Neilson for that matter. Indeed I'd go as far as to say that some of those traits I mentioned above have become more evident since his return.

 

I'm usually a believer that a run of wins ground out such as last week should be the precursor to better confidence leading to better football and a general sustenance of that run of form. So the next 3 or 4 games are key to establish whether this was just a blip of being due a couple of results or whether things are genuinely improving.

 

I still do not think the formation gives us our best chance of achieving this run of form and I still think our total lack of flexibility allows other teams plenty opportunity to out tactic us, but the stats do not lie that we are currently in a run of results we have only had another twice in 3 years.

 

That may say something of itself of course but one step at a time

 

Csaba Laszlo:

 

"If you win every game 1 - 0 you can be champions, If you lose every game 1 - 0 you can be relegated."

[Genghis Khan]

Csaba Laszlo:

 

"If you win every game 1 - 0 you can be champions, If you lose every game 1 - 0 you can be relegated."

 

He does have a tendency to "state the bleedin' obvious". Another one of his was "we must pass the ball faster and put in the net more". No ****, sherlock!

[Guest JamboRobbo]

When these figures were current only the Old Firm & Aberdeen finished higher than Hearts in the SPL as we finished 4th - so we did worse than Aberdeen but better than the rest - it was also Aberdeen's best season in approx a decade.

 

The point being they haven't changed all that dramatically. Yes, Hearts went up to 12.49M, and has probably come back down again to around 10M. Yes, maybe the OF wage bill changed by a million or two. And yes, maybe another team is spending another 500k or something.

 

But the wage figures will be in a similar ballpark, which shows why anything less than third for the money we are spending, is poor value for money.

[Charlie-Brown]

I think Hearts wage bill THIS season will be a fair bit less than ?10M & will continue to reduce as more higher earners leave / contracts end

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I think Hearts wage bill THIS season will be a fair bit less than ?10M & will continue to reduce as more higher earners leave / contracts end

 

I think you're living in fantasy land, as per usual.

 

Bes (contract paid up). Makela - will need paid up. Nade. Kingston. Karapidas. Berra. Neilson. Tullberg. All big earners. I can't see that we've lowered the wage bill much below 10M, if at all.

 

And even if our wage bill is below 10M this year - many of the teams we're competing with have a wage bill between 1 and 2M!

[JamboAl]

I think you're living in fantasy land, as per usual.

 

Bes (contract paid up). Makela - will need paid up. Nade. Kingston. Karapidas. Berra. Neilson. Tullberg. All big earners. I can't see that we've lowered the wage bill much below 10M, if at all.

 

And even if our wage bill is below 10M this year - many of the teams we're competing with have a wage bill between 1 and 2M!

 

9 points out of 9 is good going, isn't it? Rangers were beaten by St Mirren and also scraped through 2-1, Celtic beat Hamilton with a late winner AND a non penalty, so you still have to beat these teams - they are not going to lie down. WELL DONE, CSABA. He gets hammered when we lose so let's give him credit for 9 points

As regards Bes, can you provide concrete proof that his contract was paid up or are you surmising? They may have agreed to tear up the contract to free us of each other and maybe that will will happen with Makela in January.

Neilson and Berra have been there for ages and I doubt if they will have earned much more than inflationary rises. I also doubt if Kari will be on spectacular wages leaving Kingston and Nade from your list. When you add the best guesses of their salaries, it will come nowhere near the aggregate of those who have left since 31/07/07. Finally on this point when did salaries relate to league position? Ask Newcastle fans. But don't let me divert you from negative, worst case scenario, thinking.

Oh and BTW we got 9 points out of 9. great, eh?

[Guest JamboRobbo]

9 points out of 9 is good going, isn't it? Rangers were beaten by St Mirren and also scraped through 2-1, Celtic beat Hamilton with a late winner AND a non penalty, so you still have to beat these teams - they are not going to lie down. WELL DONE, CSABA. He gets hammered when we lose so let's give him credit for 9 points

 

I've never said otherwise.

 

As regards Bes, can you provide concrete proof that his contract was paid up or are you surmising? They may have agreed to tear up the contract to free us of each other and maybe that will will happen with Makela in January.

 

Just surmising based on info available. Bes said at start of the year he was on a good contract and was happy just to see it out. Both are coming towards the end of their deal.

 

If you're suggesting both have agreed to give up large payments out of the goodness of their heart, then it's possible but highly unlikely IMO.

 

Neilson and Berra have been there for ages and I doubt if they will have earned much more than inflationary rises. I also doubt if Kari will be on spectacular wages leaving Kingston and Nade from your list. When you add the best guesses of their salaries, it will come nowhere near the aggregate of those who have left since 31/07/07.

 

Do you actually know the salaries of any of those players, or the players who've left sine 31/07/07, or are you just surmising?

 

#Finally on this point when did salaries relate to league position?

 

It doesn't, thats my point.

 

Money available, plus ability of management and coaching staff to sign good players, train existing players, bring through youth etc etc etc, translates into what is acheive on the field.

 

My point being, if you put in less money, and acheive more, it points towards better management/coaching/scouting etc etc.

 

Conversly, if you spend a lot, and don't achieve as much as others spending less, it points towards poor management/coaching/scouting etc etc.

 

Ask Newcastle fans. But don't let me divert you from negative, worst case scenario, thinking.

 

You just couldn't resist another dig could you?

 

Oh and BTW we got 9 points out of 9. great, eh?

 

feel free to show where I've said otherwise.

[Cut The Crap]

It doesn't, thats my point.

 

Money available, plus ability of management and coaching staff to sign good players, train existing players, bring through youth etc etc etc, translates into what is acheive on the field.

 

My point being, if you put in less money, and acheive more, it points towards better management/coaching/scouting etc etc.

 

Conversly, if you spend a lot, and don't achieve as much as others spending less, it points towards poor management/coaching/scouting etc etc.

 

Hats off to you for having the patience to explain it yet again, JR. But if it hasn't sunk in with some people by now, I'm afraid it never will.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Hats off to you for having the patience to explain it yet again, JR. But if it hasn't sunk in with some people by now, I'm afraid it never will.

 

I won't give up trying mate. Fully expecting more stick in return.