MAN U

[Denny Crane]

Certainly when Fergie retires it will be very difficult to keep this up,things can be taken for granted and whoever takes over will have have a job doing so.

Yes the Pool dominated back then but not for as long as this current spell under Fergie,

Plus! it aint over yet.

 

I refer to a number of texts on English/European football which will put you straight on a few matters. Come back when your beloved Glams surpass both Liverpool's domestic title and European Cup count.

 

Also you gravely under-estimate Rafa's capability of setting up his own little dynasty. Given that he won the European Cup in 2005 and got to the final of another in 2007 with squads that are in the shadow of their predecessors (Gerrad, Carragher and Hamann aside could you have see the likes of Garcia, Traore, Dudek and Cisse be chosen ahead the likes of Souness, Hansen, Clemence and Dalglish had they all been around at the same time?), I wouldn't put in past him to break the title drought this season and have a very good European Cup run. Yes I know they lost yesterday but even their great sides of the past would lose the odd game. A 4-0 loss at Coventry in season 83/84 springs to mind when they eventually won the title by a big margin.

[Debut 4]

Wouldn`t do to much shouting just now Matt74. I can see Man U surpassing Liverpool`s league title haul quite easily in years to come.

 

The CL wil be a harder task but say Man U where to go 4, 5 titles ahead in years to come would that make them a more succesful club than Liverpool even if the CL wins count was still 5-3 to Liverpool?

 

In fact, domestically Man U have won the big two trophies more than Liverpool.

[Denny Crane]

Wouldn`t do to much shouting just now Matt74. I can see Man U surpassing Liverpool`s league title haul quite easily in years to come.

 

The CL wil be a harder task but say Man U where to go 4, 5 titles ahead in years to come would that make them a more succesful club than Liverpool even if the CL wins count was still 5-3 to Liverpool?

 

In fact, domestically Man U have won the big two trophies more than Liverpool.

 

 

League titles

 

Liverpool 18 Man Utd 17

 

FA Cups

 

Liverpool 7 Man Utd 11

 

League Cups

 

Liverpool 7 Man Utd 2

 

Second Division titles

 

Liverpool 4 Man Utd 2

 

FA Charity Shield

 

Liverpool 15 Man Utd 17

 

Lancashire League

 

Liverpool 1 Man Utd 0

 

European Cups

 

Liverpool 5 Man Utd 3

 

European cup-winners Cups

 

Liverpool 0 Man Utd 1

 

UEFA Cups

 

Liverpool 3 Man Utd 0

 

UEFA Super Cups

 

Liverpool 3 Man Utd 1

 

Inter-continental Cups

 

Liverpool 0 Man Utd 1

 

Total

 

Liverpool 62 Man Utd 55

[bigis semiauskas]

I refer to a number of texts on English/European football which will put you straight on a few matters. Come back when your beloved Glams surpass both Liverpool's domestic title and European Cup count.

 

Also you gravely under-estimate Rafa's capability of setting up his own little dynasty. Given that he won the European Cup in 2005 and got to the final of another in 2007 with squads that are in the shadow of their predecessors (Gerrad, Carragher and Hamann aside could you have see the likes of Garcia, Traore, Dudek and Cisse be chosen ahead the likes of Souness, Hansen, Clemence and Dalglish had they all been around at the same time?), I wouldn't put in past him to break the title drought this season and have a very good European Cup run. Yes I know they lost yesterday but even their great sides of the past would lose the odd game. A 4-0 loss at Coventry in season 83/84 springs to mind when they eventually won the title by a big margin.

 

30 to 40thou crowds against 76thou.

 

Wee Team,Big Team again.

[bigis semiauskas]

League titles

 

Liverpool 18 Man Utd 17

 

FA Cups

 

Liverpool 7 Man Utd 11

 

League Cups

 

Liverpool 7 Man Utd 2

 

Second Division titles

 

Liverpool 4 Man Utd 2

 

FA Charity Shield

 

Liverpool 15 Man Utd 17

 

Lancashire League

 

Liverpool 1 Man Utd 0

 

European Cups

 

Liverpool 5 Man Utd 3

 

European cup-winners Cups

 

Liverpool 0 Man Utd 1

 

UEFA Cups

 

Liverpool 3 Man Utd 0

 

UEFA Super Cups

 

Liverpool 3 Man Utd 1

 

Inter-continental Cups

 

Liverpool 0 Man Utd 1

 

Total

 

Liverpool 62 Man Utd 55

 

You have just verified D4's arguement,2 biggest trophys? Man U ahead.

[Denny Crane]

30 to 40thou crowds against 76thou.

 

Wee Team,Big Team again.

 

 

Capacity of Old Trafford: 76,212

Capacity of Anfield: 45,632

 

Of course the Glams get bigger crowds! Besides, this type of argument Newcastle fans resort to when questioned on their trophy count when they claim "big club" status.

 

Again, come back when your beloved Glams surpass Liverpool's trophy success.

[Denny Crane]

You have just verified D4's arguement,2 biggest trophys? Man U ahead.

 

Read again. League titles? No. FA Cup? Yes. European Cups? No. Unless you are considering the Charity Shield to be bigger than the league title?

[Debut 4]

You have just verified D4's arguement,2 biggest trophys? Man U ahead.

 

And while Liverpool were winning the Uefa Cup a few years ago Man U were probs playing in the CL.

 

I think you have to narrow it down to the biggest tournaments and when both played in the same European comp.

 

So you`d probably discount the Uefa Cup, cup winners cup wins.

 

So, Man U 28 top 2 domestic comps to Liverpools 25 and 5 -3 to the Scouse in European cups, that`s 31-30 to the Man U!

[bigis semiauskas]

Read again. League titles? No. FA Cup? Yes. European Cups? No. Unless you are considering the Charity Shield to be bigger than the league title?

 

This is a very different era in Football even compared to the 80's,the League is so much harder to win.

 

PREMSHIP TITLES-MAN U 10 LIVERPOOL ZERO

CHAMPSLEAGUE MAN U 2 LIVERPOOL 1

[Denny Crane]

This is a very different era in Football even compared to the 80's,the League is so much harder to win.

 

PREMSHIP TITLES-MAN U 10 LIVERPOOL ZERO

CHAMPSLEAGUE MAN U 2 LIVERPOOL 1

 

 

As stated before, same title(s), different name(s). If the league title before it was renamed the Premiership was so easy to win, how come the Glams didn't win it for a period of 26 years which also included one relegation?

 

 

@Debut4

 

Nice spin but, while Liverpool won their first four European Cups, United had to hack it in one of UEFA's 'lesser' competitions, so your argument does cut both ways.

[this_is_my_story]

Three times actually. 1968, 1999 & 2008. With regard to your black and white photos remark, there are plenty in that format with the Glams' 1968 triumph.

 

@this_is_my_story

 

What reasons are those?

 

 

Matt74, I don't think anybody's arguing that Liverpool aren't one of the most illustrious names in football. If you're going to base your arguments solely on Liverpool being 'bigger' than Manchester United due to their superior haul of trophies, fair enough.

 

But when it comes down to the sheer size of a club, you surely have to take other factors into account, such as the size of the club's support, the instant recognition their name receives from any football fan anywhere in the world, etc.

 

For instance, lets put it this way - Queens Park have won the scottish cup 10 times to Hearts' 7. Would I class Queens park as a bigger club than Hearts?

 

No.

 

AFC Ajax have won the European Cup/CL 4 times to FC Barcelona's 2. Would I class AFC Ajax as a bigger club than FC Barcelona?

 

No!

[Mr Austin]

As stated before, same title(s), different name(s). If the league title before it was renamed the Premiership was so easy to win, how come the Glams didn't win it for a period of 26 years which also included one relegation?

 

 

@Debut4

 

Nice spin but, while Liverpool won their first four European Cups, United had to hack it in one of UEFA's 'lesser' competitions, so your argument does cut both ways.

Get with the times!

 

Liverpool have NEVER won the Premiership. There are adults old enough to drink who have never seen Liverpool win a title. Anyone under 25 is probably too young to remember Liverpool being any good, so for you to claim you are the biggest team in England and the World is frankly laughable.

 

I think being top of the league briefly has gone to your head.

 

Earlier, you stated you used European success as a yardstick - interesting considering the Premiership is the harder and more illustrious trophy to win. The fact Liverpool, Monaco, Porto and Bayern Leverkusen all either won it or made it to the final in recent years proves that point.

 

As someone mentioned before, football is a changed game since the 80's, and it is extremely difficult to win the league and European trophy at the same time, due to the extra number of games. The big clubs always want to win both, but the league is always the priority. When yourselves won it, you were crowned Champions of Europe, but you were not even the best team in Liverpool - 5th in the Premiership. Milan finished 4th when they won it.

 

Therefore, Man United's treble and the double last year are far superior to anything Liverpool have achieved in two decades. In fact, each individual Premiership title Man Utd have won is superior to anything Liverpool have done in 20 years.

[Denny Crane]

Matt74, I don't think anybody's arguing that Liverpool aren't one of the most illustrious names in football. If you're going to base your arguments solely on Liverpool being 'bigger' than Manchester United due to their superior haul of trophies, fair enough.

 

But when it comes down to the sheer size of a club, you surely have to take other factors into account, such as the size of the club's support, the instant recognition their name receives from any football fan anywhere in the world, etc.

 

For instance, lets put it this way - Queens Park have won the scottish cup 10 times to Hearts' 7. Would I class Queens park as a bigger club than Hearts?

 

No.

 

AFC Ajax have won the European Cup/CL 4 times to FC Barcelona's 2. Would I class AFC Ajax as a bigger club than FC Barcelona?

 

No!

 

But I do know that we would love to have 10 Scottish Cups in our cabinet and Barca would equally love to match Ajax's Euro Cup haul - though I suspect the fact they are so far behind Real Madrid would rankle more.

 

@Mr Austin

 

Nothing like a personal attack eh?

 

Nevertheless, as stated before, if the league title and European Cups were so easy to win before the respective name (and format in the case of the latter) changes of the two competitions, how come United struggled to win them? The Euro Cup one is easy to answer, they didn't do enough in their own league (ie. win the thing) to gain entry into that competition. If the league championship - pre-name change - was so easy to win, how come United couldn't do that for a period of 26 years? Season 1974/75 was beyond United's reach as they were in the Second Division, but what about the other years?

[Mr Austin]

But I do know that we would love to have 10 Scottish Cups in our cabinet and Barca would equally love to match Ajax's Euro Cup haul - though I suspect the fact they are so far behind Real Madrid would rankle more.

 

@Mr Austin

 

Nothing like a personal attack eh?

 

Nevertheless, as stated before, if the league title and European Cups were so easy to win before the respective name (and format in the case of the latter) changes of the two competitions, how come United struggled to win them? The Euro Cup one is easy to answer, they didn't do enough in their own league (ie. win the thing) to gain entry into that competition. If the league championship - pre-name change - was so easy to win, how come United couldn't do that for a period of 26 years? Season 1974/75 was beyond United's reach as they were in the Second Division, but what about the other years?

Firstly, my post was aimed at your argument and was hardly 'personal, and if you think that was an 'attack' then you must be rather sensitive - either that or you have interpreted it wrongly.

 

Your 'as stated before' argument is the whole problem here - you keep going on about the 70s and 80s, completely ignoring the fact you've been rubbish for years! I'm not arguing with Liverpool's success - but there has hardly been any in the last two decades - not the form of a club who claim to be the biggest in the country, or even the world.

[Denny Crane]

Firstly, my post was aimed at your argument and was hardly 'personal, and if you think that was an 'attack' then you must be rather sensitive - either that or you have interpreted it wrongly.

 

Your 'as stated before' argument is the whole problem here - you keep going on about the 70s and 80s, completely ignoring the fact you've been rubbish for years! I'm not arguing with Liverpool's success - but there has hardly been any in the last two decades - not the form of a club who claim to be the biggest in the country, or even the world.

 

 

You didn't answer the point I'd made on United's 26 year famine in a competition you deemed to be easier then it is today.

 

There's only one tangible way for this to be settled towards your favour and that is if your beloved Glams surpass Liverpool's domestic and Euro success. Should this happen, you will have a much stronger argument than the one you are putting forward and I will readily concur with it. Until then, save the powder-puff spin for your United constituency. Cheerio la!

[Mr Austin]

You didn't answer the point I'd made on United's 26 year famine in a competition you deemed to be easier then it is today.

 

There's only one tangible way for this to be settled towards your favour and that is if your beloved Glams surpass Liverpool's domestic and Euro success. Should this happen, you will have a much stronger argument than the one you are putting forward and I will readily concur with it. Until then, save the powder-puff spin for your United constituency. Cheerio la!

Since the Premiership began, Liverpool have finished the season behind:

 

Manchester United x 16

Aston Villa x 2

Norwich City

Blackburn Rovers x 4

Queens Park Rangers

Newcastle United x 5

Arsenal x 12

Leeds United x 4

Wimbledon x 2

Sheffield Wednesday x 2

Nottingham Forest

Everton

West Ham

Chelsea x 7

 

In fact, less than 10 years ago, Liverpool finished 7th, a grand 2 points ahead of Derby County in 8th place.

 

Now I'm sure you could come back with a list of teams Man United have finished below, and you could of course use that example from well over quarter of a century ago when United were in the 2nd division but it wouldn't be anywhere near as weighted as my examples. Or you could just accept that your successful era was a long time ago, and in modern football, Liverpool have a record more in common with the Everton's and Tottenham's than they do with Europe's elite.

 

I'm not suggesting the league was easier to win before it was the Premiership, but I use the Premiership and Champions League examples because they are much more recent examples, and count for a lot more when arguing who the bigger club is nowadays.

 

I'm nearing 22 and I can't remember Liverpool mounting a title challenge, let alone win it. The idea of you telling me Liverpool are bigger than Manchester United, or even Arsenal for that matter is absurd - I've seen nothing to back it up. I assume you remember Liverpool's dominance fondly, but so do the Aberdeen and Dundee United fans of the same era. How long ago do you need to go back before you accept you are no longer up there?

[artfuldodger]

Since the Premiership began, Liverpool have finished the season behind:

 

Manchester United x 16

Aston Villa x 2

Norwich City

Blackburn Rovers x 4

Queens Park Rangers

Newcastle United x 5

Arsenal x 12

Leeds United x 4

Wimbledon x 2

Sheffield Wednesday x 2

Nottingham Forest

Everton

West Ham

Chelsea x 7

 

In fact, less than 10 years ago, Liverpool finished 7th, a grand 2 points ahead of Derby County in 8th place.

 

Now I'm sure you could come back with a list of teams Man United have finished below, and you could of course use that example from well over quarter of a century ago when United were in the 2nd division but it wouldn't be anywhere near as weighted as my examples. Or you could just accept that your successful era was a long time ago, and in modern football, Liverpool have a record more in common with the Everton's and Tottenham's than they do with Europe's elite.

 

I'm not suggesting the league was easier to win before it was the Premiership, but I use the Premiership and Champions League examples because they are much more recent examples, and count for a lot more when arguing who the bigger club is nowadays.

 

I'm nearing 22 and I can't remember Liverpool mounting a title challenge, let alone win it. The idea of you telling me Liverpool are bigger than Manchester United, or even Arsenal for that matter is absurd - I've seen nothing to back it up. I assume you remember Liverpool's dominance fondly, but so do the Aberdeen and Dundee United fans of the same era. How long ago do you need to go back before you accept you are no longer up there?

 

arsenal you having a laugh

[Mr Austin]

arsenal you having a laugh

The Arsenal comment was based solely on what I have seen in my lifetime. I'm not arguing that Liverpool were a bigger club, but they haven't been anywhere near them for nearly two decades. They have finished above Liverpool 12 out of 17 Premiership seasons.

[artfuldodger]

The Arsenal comment was based solely on what I have seen in my lifetime. I'm not arguing that Liverpool were a bigger club, but they haven't been anywhere near them for nearly two decades. They have finished above Liverpool 12 out of 17 Premiership seasons.

 

why not mention chelsea and blackbur4n they have both won the prem

[HMFCjamieHMFC]

Since the Premiership began, Liverpool have finished the season behind:

 

Manchester United x 16

Aston Villa x 2

Norwich City

Blackburn Rovers x 4

Queens Park Rangers

Newcastle United x 5

Arsenal x 12

Leeds United x 4

Wimbledon x 2

Sheffield Wednesday x 2

Nottingham Forest

Everton

West Ham

Chelsea x 7

 

In fact, less than 10 years ago, Liverpool finished 7th, a grand 2 points ahead of Derby County in 8th place.

 

Now I'm sure you could come back with a list of teams Man United have finished below, and you could of course use that example from well over quarter of a century ago when United were in the 2nd division but it wouldn't be anywhere near as weighted as my examples. Or you could just accept that your successful era was a long time ago, and in modern football, Liverpool have a record more in common with the Everton's and Tottenham's than they do with Europe's elite.

 

I'm not suggesting the league was easier to win before it was the Premiership, but I use the Premiership and Champions League examples because they are much more recent examples, and count for a lot more when arguing who the bigger club is nowadays.

 

I'm nearing 22 and I can't remember Liverpool mounting a title challenge, let alone win it. The idea of you telling me Liverpool are bigger than Manchester United, or even Arsenal for that matter is absurd - I've seen nothing to back it up. I assume you remember Liverpool's dominance fondly, but so do the Aberdeen and Dundee United fans of the same era. How long ago do you need to go back before you accept you are no longer up there?

 

2001-02 we only finished 7 points behind the winners Arsenal

[Denny Crane]

Since the Premiership began, Liverpool have finished the season behind:

 

Manchester United x 16

Aston Villa x 2

Norwich City

Blackburn Rovers x 4

Queens Park Rangers

Newcastle United x 5

Arsenal x 12

Leeds United x 4

Wimbledon x 2

Sheffield Wednesday x 2

Nottingham Forest

Everton

West Ham

Chelsea x 7

 

In fact, less than 10 years ago, Liverpool finished 7th, a grand 2 points ahead of Derby County in 8th place.

 

Now I'm sure you could come back with a list of teams Man United have finished below,(so could many people) and you could of course use that example from well over quarter of a century ago when United were in the 2nd division (ah great days - how ironic it was one of your legends who sent you there) but it wouldn't be anywhere near as weighted as my examples (lest it destroy your pithy argument but hey, I've had a whole lifetime of sad Glams spewing out this type of drivel - mind it was funnier when your ilk tried to do it before Fergie finally got things to click. Funniest one I can remember being 'the FA Cup is more improtant than the European Cup' - still makes me smile that one). Or you could just accept that your successful era was a long time ago (could have sworn we won Europe's biggest prize three years ago - hardly that long a time), and in modern football, Liverpool have a record more in common with the Everton's and Tottenham's (it gets better - you really should do stand up. You're funnier than Jerzy Dudek putting off Shevchenko to win the European Cup - something the Toffees or Spurs have never done, which in turn makes a right dog's mess of your hillarious comparisson) than they do with Europe's elite.

 

I'm not suggesting the league was easier to win before it was the Premiership (you insinuated it pal), but I use the Premiership and Champions League examples because they are much more recent examples, and count for a lot more when arguing who the bigger club is nowadays. (Of course I should have realised. History starts when Man Utd started to get good again. Let's sweep everyone else's achievements that happened beforehand under the carpet eh!? )

I'm nearing 22 (ah - should have guessed) and I can't remember Liverpool mounting a title challenge (they were in serious contention in:1995/96, 96/97 & 2001/02), let alone win it. The idea of you telling me Liverpool are bigger than Manchester United, or even Arsenal (get me an ambulance - my sides have split with all this laughing) for that matter is absurd (Zinoviev would be proud of you my blinkered Glam) - I've seen nothing to back it up (that's it - keep telling yourself Istanbul never happened and don't forget to take those tablets or Nurse Ratchett will be cross). I assume you remember Liverpool's dominance fondly, but so do the Aberdeen and Dundee United fans of the same era. How long ago do you need to go back before you accept you are no longer up there?

 

We accept that our glories are in the past and that Liverpool Football Club should be contending for the prizes offered domestically and in Europe on a regular basis. However, when some tiresome little Glam tries to besmirch the Reds' past, a retort must be delivered. Should your beloved team surpass Liverpool's success, then hats off to you and we'll give you your due. But until that day, give the comedy a rest.