Guest Roop Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Not had the chance to get this confirmed yet, but I was told something interesting today about our current scouting process for under 10s. There is (apparently) an odd twist if a coach is actually interested. The lad gets to sent to some clinic where they take an x-ray of his wrist. From some small bone in the child's wrist (don't laugh) they can quite accurately predict his eventual adult height. If he's going to grow to about the same height as, say, Paul Hartley or our world class ksanavicius, he's binned in favour of some prospective 6ft 2 eyes of blue type. I asked a youth player and he said he wasn't sure and couldn't remember. Can anyone shed some light who has any knowledge of this? I do hope there's a little more to this story than I've gleaned so far, or it is in fact bull****. Edit - found something that might be it. "They usually look at the humerus or femur to see the epiphysial plate (disk of cartilage in an immature long bone permitting growth). It's pretty common practice in America for young basketball players and finicky parents who want to know how tall their kid will be." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosanostra Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I'm a radiographer and i've never heard anything like that. It's pretty easy to establish the developmental age and the actual age of a child by a wrist x-ray as the carpal bones develop over time. There's no way of predicting a child's height or weight from a wrist x-ray though that I've ever heard of. It's also illegal for a doctor to refer anyone for an x-ray that cannot be medically justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 would be a bizarre thing to do if true. Though I think we shouldn't look at future height if true, under the same process we would reject Messi, he benefited from being small. Its more about teaching better ball skills with small players. They can be more nippy and able to get past. Messi himself said that it was because he was small that he learnt how to use the ball well on the ground. Also something else to bear in mind, if argentina played a 4-3-3 formation with Messi, Tevez and Kun Aguerro than it would have a front three who size ranges from 5ft 6 1/2 to 5 ft 8 1/2. But you would still love a front three like that in most teams. Thanks pringle though for passing info you heard like this on, even if it is not true it is still hear things that the youth coaches may do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Sounds pretty dodgy to me. My wife is 5'7" and has the thinnest wrists and ankles I have ever seen. Apparently it is an actual know condition. The rest of her is however normal size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Buaben Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 My cousin was under 9's at hearts for a while and never had anything like that done although maybe go through under 10's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midlothian P Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 As previously mentioned this would not happen on ethical grounds, you have to justify passing radiation through someone (x-ray) clinically and guessing their future height is not good enough. The development of the carpal bones being an indicator for future height is also a new one on me i have to say, could possibly understand growth plate development in weight bearing bones (femur,tibia etc) but not the carpals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosanostra Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 As previously mentioned this would not happen on ethical grounds, you have to justify passing radiation through someone (x-ray) clinically and guessing their future height is not good enough. The development of the carpal bones being an indicator for future height is also a new one on me i have to say, could possibly understand growth plate development in weight bearing bones (femur,tibia etc) but not the carpals. My thoughts also. I guess it may be possible to assess how much potential for development a child's long bones may have by x-raying, for example, a femoral epiphysis, but even then, I've no idea how accurate that would be. Growth happens in spurts so while it would be possible to see that growth might still happen, how much is another matter entirely. This does sound like a very American thing to do. It's hardly surprising that this might happen in such a competetitive environment and it's also true that in many American states, you can pretty much buy yourself all of the x-rays or tomographs you want, regardless of the clinical need or the needless dose of radiation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jambo poet Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 ethical grounds?.....not if they were going private...which I suspect they would be as I couldn't see the Royal Infirmiary taking a few lads for a "team x-ray" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosanostra Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 ethical grounds?.....not if they were going private...which I suspect they would be as I couldn't see the Royal Infirmiary taking a few lads for a "team x-ray" The UK radiation laws cover private practice as well. However, some less scrupulous doctors may be willing to think up a justification if they were going to be handsomely paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 What's a tomograph and where can I get one? It sounds quite cool getting a graph of your tomo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jambo poet Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 The UK radiation laws cover private practice as well. However, some less scrupulous doctors may be willing to think up a justification if they were going to be handsomely paid. yeah in a year or two !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosanostra Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 What's a tomograph and where can I get one? It sounds quite cool getting a graph of your tomo. CT scan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 CT scan. Damn, I thought it was something new and exciting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosanostra Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Damn, I thought it was something new and exciting. CT is exciting. Well I think it is any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wibble Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 FIFA have been using MRI for this purpose since 2006 when it was trialled in 4 countries (not Scotland), so you'd imagine a lot of clubs use MRI themselves to make sure a player is the age he says he is. http://bjsm.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/41/1/45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpship Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Talking about Hearts youth- I work beside a lady who's son is a fantastic player . Can't remember what age group he is in but Hearts got the boy to come and play for them . After a short time hearts told the lad' He was not needed . Then the mother got a phone call from hibs asking for the boy to attend hibs training . Think she said its in Currie . She told me the boy loved it . Hibs actively encourage the boys to have fun when training. At the end of the night they all tell jokes and sh*t Couple of days later Hearts are back on the phone' Telling his mother they have made a mistake and want the boy back . He doesn't want to go back . He doesn't like the hearts youth set up . His mother said in his words . "Everyone is sad. I don't want to go back." His mother agreed and told Hearts where to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wibble Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Talking about Hearts youth- I work beside a lady who's son is a fantastic player . Can't remember what age group he is in but Hearts got the boy to come and play for them . After a short time hearts told the lad' He was not needed . Then the mother got a phone call from hibs asking for the boy to attend hibs training . Think she said its in Currie . She told me the boy loved it . Hibs actively encourage the boys to have fun when training. At the end of the night they all tell jokes and sh*t Couple of days later Hearts are back on the phone' Telling his mother they have made a mistake and want the boy back . He doesn't want to go back . He doesn't like the hearts youth set up . His mother said in his words . "Everyone is sad. I don't want to go back." His mother agreed and told Hearts where to go. Tell diddums to Harden The F@KK UP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Winstone Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I have heard of using x-rays of the wrist to determine the eventual development of someone. Infact I am sure a couple of guys who were pretty short at my school had to go through this process before the doctors decided to give them growth enhancing hormones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshallschunkychicken Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Tell diddums to Harden The F@KK UP. Agreed. It's not the Scouts FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 can we not have ksanavicius sent for a wrist x-ray to determine that he's not going to get any bigger, and what is more, any better at football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Talking about Hearts youth- I work beside a lady who's son is a fantastic player . Can't remember what age group he is in but Hearts got the boy to come and play for them . After a short time hearts told the lad' He was not needed . Then the mother got a phone call from hibs asking for the boy to attend hibs training . Think she said its in Currie . She told me the boy loved it . Hibs actively encourage the boys to have fun when training. At the end of the night they all tell jokes and sh*t Couple of days later Hearts are back on the phone' Telling his mother they have made a mistake and want the boy back . He doesn't want to go back . He doesn't like the hearts youth set up . His mother said in his words . "Everyone is sad. I don't want to go back." His mother agreed and told Hearts where to go. to be honest, some places suit some people more than others. I still think we have the best youth academy and system in the whole of Scotland and will lose some players through the odd bad experence, but doesn't mean that it is like that for all. Hopefully someone with a child in the Hearts youth system could back this up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 That's disgusting. Thanks for that Borthers. Now, how am I going to get that coffee off my keyboard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makween Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 They're actually just trying to determine the boys' moral fibre. Don't want players who'll be blind at 21. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devries4 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 That's disgusting. Heh heh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Gosling Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Hearts have the best youth setup in Scotland from U17 downwards so if a wee boy doesn't like it he's probably not cut out for football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Hearts have the best youth setup in Scotland from U17 downwards so if a wee boy doesn't like it he's probably not cut out for football. Any basis at all for this statement? Have you seen any of the other set ups to compare? Can you clarify what we do that the other clubs don't, which results in us having the the best youth setup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makween Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Any basis for this statement? Have you seen any of the other set ups? Have you any idea what they do or how much they invest? You forgot to mention Romanov. I'm disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 You forgot to mention Romanov. I'm disappointed. And you forgot to make an irrelevent and pointless post. Oh no, my mistake, you didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makween Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 And you forgot to make an irrelevent and pointless post. Oh no, my mistake, you didn't. Irrelevant and pointless? Steady on, that's a bit harsh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondejamtart Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 They're actually just trying to determine the boys' moral fibre. Don't want players who'll be blind at 21. Good job they're not applying the same sort of screening process for JKB posters then, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makween Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Good job they're not applying the same sort of screening process for JKB posters then, isn't it? How is your daughter, anyway? x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Hearts have the best youth setup in Scotland from U17 downwards so if a wee boy doesn't like it he's probably not cut out for football. I would agree with that, I think the closet to hearts is rangers set up. In my eyes the way to judge it is to look at the level of people who have come through the system since they were 10 at least. That way they get the full use of riccarton through their development. However those people are only 14at the moment. Even the level of our U19s at the moment is a much higher standard than of recent years. This is continuly improving. Also it is not wise to look at the international call ups as way of judging whether a system is useful as there are usually much more rangers and celtic players than should probably be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Gosling Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Any basis at all for this statement? Have you seen any of the other set ups to compare? Can you clarify what we do that the other clubs don't, which results in us having the the best youth setup? I lied, we're actually going into administration because we've been sued by a parent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighusref Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Tell diddums to Harden The F@KK UP. Agreed. It's not the Scouts FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedygonzales Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Another poster touched on it, but there is definitely a recognised practice in the UK to x-ray the wrist to determine possible full grown height. They measure 'bone age' against actual age and factor in some other stuff to give a predicted height range, max-min. This can be done privately or via the NHS, but usually happens after a GP referral. Off course whether the radiograph experts on this forum have heard about such things doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And as for ethics, is it ethical to inject an injured player just so they can push out 90 more minutes, at the risk of crippling them for life? I know the bone age thing because I was one such short arse that went through this process, then had to endure two years of bi-weekly injections in my derrier. I think the drug was either genotropin or gerotropin, a form of artificial growth hormone. It was pretty pricey too, each injection cost ?180. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosanostra Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Another poster touched on it, but there is definitely a recognised practice in the UK to x-ray the wrist to determine possible full grown height.They measure 'bone age' against actual age and factor in some other stuff to give a predicted height range, max-min. This can be done privately or via the NHS, but usually happens after a GP referral. Off course whether the radiograph experts on this forum have heard about such things doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And as for ethics, is it ethical to inject an injured player just so they can push out 90 more minutes, at the risk of crippling them for life? I know the bone age thing because I was one such short arse that went through this process, then had to endure two years of bi-weekly injections in my derrier. I think the drug was either genotropin or gerotropin, a form of artificial growth hormone. It was pretty pricey too, each injection cost ?180. I know what measuring bone age is, but like I said already, that only shows the developmental age of the bones in comparison to the norm or average and does not give a prediction about height or weight, only how much more development is likely to happen. If you are under-weight or under-height for your age, that would obviously be an ethical reason for performing the examination. However, if a football club or your parents just wanted to know how tall you'd be, that would not, at least not in the UK. I found this:- Bone-age evaluation Your doctor may obtain an x-ray of your child's left hand and wrist – called a bone age x-ray – to evaluate the maturity of his or her bones. The x-ray is compared with a series of standard x-rays of children at different ages to determine your child's bone maturity. Using this x-ray, a child's growth potential can also be determined – that is, how much remaining growth he or she has left. As with all growth measurements, there is a wide range of normal development. Having a bone age that is somewhat younger or older than a child's chronological age (or "calendar age" – the actual age since birth) is not unusual. However, if the bone age is extremely advanced or delayed, this may suggest an underlying growth problem. The bone-age evaluation is generally used along with the physical examination and growth charts to obtain a comprehensive picture of a child's growth and maturity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polwarthjambo Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Interesting that anyone with any medical background might think that the blanket subjection of 10 year old kids to unnecessary radiation would be appropriate in any circumstances. surely only the most desperate of pushy parents would surely agree to it. Can't think why it would be essential to know either in a sport like football, as we all know - for every gordan petric there's a john robertson, and every hans eskillson a colin cameron! Remember speaking with a paediatric orthopaedic surgeon in edinburgh a good few years ago and he reckoned that generally a kid is half their adult height at the age of 2 - John Murray might have to start scouting nurseries in edinburgh to get the tall ones in early. link below has a height predictor calculator but god knows how reliable it is or whether it is evidence based, but probably a bit safer than x-rays! http://www.csgnetwork.com/heightpredictcalc.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Hearts have the best youth setup in Scotland from U17 downwards so if a wee boy doesn't like it he's probably not cut out for football. My nephew plays for the U12's and has been there for 2 years. He loves it, training and all a great coach who encourages the boys really well. He's not built like a brick house but quite small but with terrific skill. Boys get dropped for various reasons and yes sometimes good ones slip through the net. The previous poster who was trying to infer the dropping of quality players is common place with us is making it up imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj-noisy Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Ha ha ha Thats the best one i have heard yet! Wait till i tell my mate who coaches the under 13's lol lol lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy McNulty Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Sounds pretty dodgy to me. My wife is 5'7" and has the thinnest wrists and ankles I have ever seen. Apparently it is an actual know condition. The rest of her is however normal size. I can back that up. He's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambojim52 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 CT is exciting. Well I think it is any way. There is more than one way to scan a cat. So the sign in the old RIE used to state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Roop Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Ha ha ha Thats the best one i have heard yet! Wait till i tell my mate who coaches the under 13's lol lol lol It's not that far-fetched. I think the Bolton academy do this regularly (as confirmed on another forum). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therapist Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I was told something interesting today about our current scouting process for under 10s. There is (apparently) an odd twist if a coach is actually interested. The lad gets to sent to some clinic where they take an x-ray of his wrist. From some small bone in the child's wrist (don't laugh) they can quite accurately predict his eventual adult height. This is better than the Pinilla thread's OP in terms of most ridiculous post of the season. Football clubs randomly irradiating 10-year-old kids. I was going to say you couldn't make it up, but clearly you could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 This is better than the Pinilla thread's OP in terms of most ridiculous post of the season. Football clubs randomly irradiating 10-year-old kids. I was going to say you couldn't make it up, but clearly you could. You could've made up Rima's golden stick and the black box too. But both were real! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Roop Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 This is better than the Pinilla thread's OP in terms of most ridiculous post of the season. Football clubs randomly irradiating 10-year-old kids. I was going to say you couldn't make it up, but clearly you could. Taken from another forum: "said he had it done when at Bolton he was around 10. They estimate your size, weight and general body build. Apparently they said he would be 5ft 10" he is actually 6ft 1 now and still growing at the moment so they aren't exactly accurate." "It is infact true, my girlfriends brother was at City from 8-14 and they predicted he would end up 6ft 1" from an x-ray of his wrist. He's not far off, but he's left City now." EDIT - they were both Goalkeepers, too. Probably explains why not many have heard of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makween Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 You could've made up Rima's golden stick and the black box too. But both were real! I'm going to be honest here, I think that it'd be a struggle to make up you. Nevertheless, you apparently exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I'm a radiographer and i've never heard anything like that. It's pretty easy to establish the developmental age and the actual age of a child by a wrist x-ray as the carpal bones develop over time. There's no way of predicting a child's height or weight from a wrist x-ray though that I've ever heard of. It's also illegal for a doctor to refer anyone for an x-ray that cannot be medically justified. Hmmn I wonder if it was you who gave me a chest Xray at the Royal last Monday! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makween Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Hmmn I wonder if it was you who gave me a chest Xray at the Royal last Monday! LOL LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I'm going to be honest here, I think that it'd be a struggle to make up you. Nevertheless, you apparently exist. Don't need an Xray to see that there is plenty of unintentional irony in your diet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makween Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Don't need an Xray to see that there is plenty of unintentional irony in your diet! LOL LMAO TEEHEE PMSL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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