Atheists' bus ads on the way

[rustyboy]

I'm not looking for people to believe that God did it, I'm a Christian because I believe that God not only exists but loves me enough to want a relationship with me. God has revealed Himself to me in various ways, generally through creation and through the moral law, but this isn't enough for mankind to believe because our sin hides God from us. There needs to be a specific revelation through the bible, the person of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

 

God needs to reveal Himself to us, because He is so holy and 'above' man that we could never find Him by our own efforts, our sin gets in the way, even of admitting His existence.

 

I know that this will be anathema to most of you (at least the vocal majority), but it's Christian theology, it's what Christians believe. I also understand that it's a circular argument, you can't accept that there's a God because your sin gets in the way and you're sinful so you can't see God.

 

But God says, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me". Revelation 3:20

 

(I was going to post a picture of William Holman Hunt's painting depicting this image, but it's a bit religious!)

 

 

Hey Doc, i always find this stuff interesting and i must admit i am not very clued up on the ins and outs of the church. I am just wondering though, why is it that people pray through Jesus and Christianity? What happened before that? Why do people not pray straight to God instead of through this man or his mother who were alive only 2000 years ago? I just can't get my head round that. Also is it true that to enter heaven you must follow the one true god, through Christianity? What about the people that were alive before Christianity, did they get their chance? As i say i don't know much about that side of things and am genuinely interested! And i am sober on a Friday night and on kickback, God help me!!!!!

 

 

p.s i realise in the bible Moses etc who were alive thousands of years ago went to heaven through God, just wondered why the format changed from God to Jesus. If that even makes sense.

[BigC]

So you accept that god can just appear. He can just be, He just is - despite no physical evidence.

 

No, that suggests that there was a time when God wasn't, God has always been and will always be. Physical evidence? The universe, all of it.

 

I can't take this part of the argument any further. It would be like arguing over the length of Santa's beard.

 

But you cannot accept that that is the case for humans? We just are. Despite mountains of physical evidence that that is the case.

 

I've never said that, evolution doesn't preclude a creator.

 

By saying that the only explanation for complex beings is an even more complex one, then it is you who created the need for the question of who created God?

 

I never said that, I'm not a creationist, these are two different arguments.

 

You are not a young earth creationist certainly and you believe in evolution, but you believe god created the universe and started the process of evolution, (feel free to correct me but that's how I interpret it). That still makes you a creationist in my book. More importantly, you believe that god interferes in our daily lives, changes things, preforms miracles etc. (Again correct me if I'm wrong). That makes you more than just a Deist, but most of your arguments come over as if you are arguing from a deists perspective.

 

And if the only answer you can offer up is "He just is" then you need to rationally explain how you can ignore the evidence for that being the case for humans, therefore negating the need for a God.

 

Ultimately it all comes back to the initial spark - how did the first single cell organism appear?

 

The answer is, we don't know.

I thought there was mountains of physical evidence?

 

There is mountains of evidence in favour of evolution. We just don't know how it started.

 

Imagine you wandered along Easter Road and as you passed where the San Giro used to be, all you saw was a big pile of burning embers. Smoke was still in the sky and from the pattern of damage, the fire investigation unit could tell you exactly where the fire started.

 

If you asked them how the fire started and they said, "Well, it came from here, accelerant was certainly used and it spread because lots of rubbish was left lying around".

 

If you said, "Yes but was it a match or a lighter, or did someone do it with a magnifying glass" and they said "Well we don't know that yet, we're still trying to figure it out", you would accept that we will either never know, or eventually the experts will get there and we'll have an answer.

 

If Uri Geller then turned up and said it wasn't a match that started the fire, it was the collective will of everyone on Kickback that caused the spark, then you would want some pretty decent evidence to back that up.

 

If he found a post from the archives of the old old version of hibs.net from 1999 saying that the Yams all hoped that Easter Road would burn down, and also Mixu was born of a virgin and Rob Jones was a talking donkey.... then a few nutters from the American Fundamentalists Hibs Supporters Club in for Hicksville Alabama chipped in that they doubted there even was a fire and Mad Vlad had fired a misslie from his submarine because that's how they interpreted a later post from late 2005....

 

You'd start to think... Where the **** did all this come from.

 

Then if every Hibby in the town told their kids from age one that "That nasty man Romanov did it"... What would they all think in 10, 20, 50 years time....

 

Welcome to our world. This is what we're up against.

 

You admit that your argument is circular. That's all I need to hear.

[The Doctor]

I think that's quite brilliant BigC.

 

I'm not a deist, I believe that God intervenes, I don't know why He apparently picks and chooses what He intervenes in. I have as many questions, perhaps more, than you.

 

Your whole brilliantly written metaphor falls down because the God I know is personal and relational, not distant and not rumour or hearsay.

 

I'm sorry that you feel you're up against anything, I wouldn't want to do anything that threatened anyone's liberty and yet your penultimate paragraph reads like it's the Christians against the world. The way I see it is that Jesus is the hope of the world, so it kind of saddens me that the response is so defensive.

 

Anyway it's always a pleasure to discuss these things with you, I know we'll never agree, but I'm proud that we can engage with a modicum of respect and dignity.

[The Doctor]

Hey Doc, i always find this stuff interesting and i must admit i am not very clued up on the ins and outs of the church. I am just wondering though, why is it that people pray through Jesus and Christianity? What happened before that? Why do people not pray straight to God instead of through this man or his mother who were alive only 2000 years ago? I just can't get my head round that. Also is it true that to enter heaven you must follow the one true god, through Christianity? What about the people that were alive before Christianity, did they get their chance? As i say i don't know much about that side of things and am genuinely interested! And i am sober on a Friday night and on kickback, God help me!!!!!

 

 

p.s i realise in the bible Moses etc who were alive thousands of years ago went to heaven through God, just wondered why the format changed from God to Jesus. If that even makes sense.

 

Okay lots of questions, I'll try my best...

 

Sometimes people pray directly to God, in fact I usually do, but I can only do that through Jesus. Jesus is God's son and is also fully God, part of the trinity. I don't know how, that's a mystery, but God's nature is relational and the persons of the trinity relate in different ways to humankind. Father God, creator, almighty, Jesus, saviour, mediator, Holy Spirit, power of God, counsellor. One God in three persons.

 

The reason that Christians would say that they pray through Jesus is that Jesus death allows us to be forgiven and so we can approach God, before we accept that God is hidden and remote from us, our sin creates a barrier between us and Him. Jesus death removes that barrier, our sin and makes a way for us to come into relationship with God. Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". (John 14:6)

 

Jesus is fully man and fully God. This is important because Jesus has a foot in both camps and can therefore mediate between us and God. (This gets tricky to get your head round, again because of the trinity) As I said it all comes back to the relational nature of God. In fact it can get even more complex, The Holy Spirit (God) convicts us of our sin, Jesus (God) dies for our sin and Father (God) forgives our sin.

 

Catholics might pray to Mary, I tend to think of that as almost a superstitious thing. The belief, I think, is that Jesus can't refuse his mother anything, so if you ask Mary and she asks Jesus, you'll definitely get your prayer answered. I don't think it's necessary, God answers my prayers, Mary is a dead woman, important she may have been, but unlike her son, she's dead and buried!

 

To enter heaven, you must live a perfect, sinless, life. No one has, so we need forgiveness, our sins must be atoned for and God's holy anger must be assuaged, e.g. justice must be done. Jesus' death achieved these things, he died instead of us, he became sin for us, he took our punishment. He redeemed the debt of sin we owe. You could think of it as though Jesus paid your fine and so you didn't have to go to jail for the crime you committed. The fine is paid, so justice is served and you are free to go about your business without worrying about the burden of your guilt.

 

Before Jesus, people were saved by the faith they had, by their response to God. Jews sacrificed birds, goats, bulls and lambs to God, sometimes ceremonially and symbolically placing their sins on the animal and killing it. (This is where the word scapegoat comes from, or why Jesus is sometimes called The Lamb of God)

 

I believe that if people who don't know Jesus, or don't have the opportunity to respond to Jesus are genuinely repentant, genuinely seek forgiveness then God would not deny them heaven. I have a good friend who's a muslim and who is genuinely repentant, relies on God's grace (Allah's grace, but I see this as the same thing in this context) and seeks forgiveness. I see very little between our faiths, except that he has no assurance. I have assurance.

 

We will all be judged, but for Christians their sins are already forgiven, because they asked. For those who reject Jesus, I believe that judgement awaits you too, but not hell, at least not this idea of eternal suffering and damnation. I don't see that in the bible and I don't see a forgiving and loving God damning people to hell to be tortured for eternity. That's abhorrent and I want no part in it. So the best I can come up with is perhaps annihilation, nothingness. I have a pretty weak doctrine of hell, but there's not a whole lot in the bible about it even the names are varied Hades/Ghenna.

 

So heaven for me, nothing for the rest of you, probably. I'll take heaven, it sounds cool.

 

To answer your final bit I don't think the format changed from God to Jesus. I think that Jesus was around from the start, Jesus is fully God so has always been. (That'll upset BigC) In Genesis 1 you have God saying "Let us make man in our image".

In John 1 the fourth gospel starts "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

Jesus is 'the Word'.

Jesus doesn't become incarnate until 2,000 years ago, that's why I'll refer to Jesus' birth as the incarnation, but Jesus was around before.

 

If you've got questions, genuinely, go to an Alpha Course, they won't try to convert you (at least they shouldn't) and they will give you an opportunity to explore these things for yourself.

[269miles]

Now Uly, you're not going to expect me to agree with that are you?

 

I suspect that you and I and Mr Dawkins would agree entirely about how the universe came into being, I note with interest that you have referred to it as created twice, surely that infers a Creator? However I don't believe in a young earth and don't believe that evolutionary theory contradicts anything of the creation story in the first two chapters of Genesis, providing that story is interpreted as a metaphor (as much of the bible is intended to be).

 

I'm perfectly happy to test my belief against empirical evidence, because my faith does not stand or fall on whether Man came into existence through creation or through an evolutionary process, that's just not the central tenet of my faith.

 

You may say that it's convenient for me to interpret some bible passages as metaphor and some as literal truth, but I'd say that's rather inconvenient. It would be far easier for me to have God reveal Himself in an overt and obvious way to all, explaining clearly how and why He did it! But then where would that leave free will, or reasoned debate?

 

For me the literal truth is less important than the truth garnered from interpretation. For example, the point of the story of Adam and Eve, the Fall, the Garden of Eden, is not whether or not it happened, but that it happens. People sin, turn from God, act selfishly, without regard for consequences. This is what I mean by metaphor, interpretation and truth and it's certainly not something that doesn't require thought or understanding.

 

I'm not offering an alternative view as to how the universe and humanity came into being, I don't have one, so I accept that the universe is some 4 billion years old, that it probably began with a big bang and that we have evolved from complex strings of protein.

 

My conviction moves beyond that to ask why. I cannot accept that who I am, how I feel, that I love and hate and hurt and have joy and peace and all of those beautiful emotions are only the result of chemical and biological processes. I have a soul, I have a spirit. Can I prove it? No, but it's there, in my love for my kids, or my compassion for the needy, or my mourning for the dead, or my passion for my wife.

 

My faith makes sense of the why. It assuages the guilt, it provides hope for the future, it reflects who I am, it gives me value and purpose.

 

I think that Dawkins' little soundbite that thinking is anathema to religion is naughty and worthless. The college of which he is a fellow only exists because the church established it, surely then it follows that Dawkins' thinking, coming out of that college is equally detestable!

 

The first part just makes makes me chuckle : simply , don't let the facts get in the way of a good story. Christianity pirated beliefs from Egypt and the Jewish faith but Christians still adhere blindly to the ideal that Jesus etc, etc is the saviour of mankind.

 

As for the second part : well , actually how you feel is ALL about your bodys chemicals. I don't see many tribal groups in the Amazonian rainforest who are suffering in any way because they haven't heard of or been exposed to Jesus (or any other 'god' for that matter).

 

How do you explain 'missionaries' ? Isn't that that offensive and patronising to indigenous peoples all over the world who have quite happily existed for millennia without any form of Christianity in their lives ?

 

Don't worry about us atheists : we can't possibly do as much damage as Christianity has to the world.

[BigC]

I think that's quite brilliant BigC.

 

I'm not a deist, I believe that God intervenes, I don't know why He apparently picks and chooses what He intervenes in. I have as many questions, perhaps more, than you.

 

Your whole brilliantly written metaphor falls down because the God I know is personal and relational, not distant and not rumour or hearsay.

 

I'm sorry that you feel you're up against anything, I wouldn't want to do anything that threatened anyone's liberty and yet your penultimate paragraph reads like it's the Christians against the world. The way I see it is that Jesus is the hope of the world, so it kind of saddens me that the response is so defensive.

 

Anyway it's always a pleasure to discuss these things with you, I know we'll never agree, but I'm proud that we can engage with a modicum of respect and dignity.

 

What do you mean by personal and relational? Do you actually hear god speaking or is it just feelings you get? What makes you sure the words you hear or the feelings you get aren't just you telling yourself what to do?

 

I don't mean that we are up against Christians an any sense other than intellectual argument. (Except when the likes of Sarah Palin try to try and tell rape victims what to do with their bodies - in that sense it's a very real fight).

 

I just find the circular logic frustrating because you can't rationalise with Christians because they see the world so differently.

 

I don't mind coming across as defensive though, because I feel that I'm defending the truth, which is a worthy cause. (And I'm sure you feel the same).

 

Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed my metaphor and our chat. I did too, even although I can't always get a straight answer out of you.

 

Let us know if you get any more of your own questions answered.

 

[BigC]

We will all be judged, but for Christians their sins are already forgiven, because they asked. For those who reject Jesus, I believe that judgement awaits you too, but not hell, at least not this idea of eternal suffering and damnation. I don't see that in the bible and I don't see a forgiving and loving God damning people to hell to be tortured for eternity. That's abhorrent and I want no part in it. So the best I can come up with is perhaps annihilation, nothingness. I have a pretty weak doctrine of hell, but there's not a whole lot in the bible about it even the names are varied Hades/Ghenna.

 

So heaven for me, nothing for the rest of you, probably. I'll take heaven, it sounds cool.

 

If you've got questions, genuinely, go to an Alpha Course, they won't try to convert you (at least they shouldn't) and they will give you an opportunity to explore these things for yourself.

 

I have to say I'm very encouraged about your feelings on hell.

 

Unfortunately my Mum didn't go on one of your Alpha Courses and now thinks that my Brother and I are all set for an eternity in a pit of fire because we won't accept Jesus as our saviour, and she keeps saying "But what if you knew you were about to die, would you repent then?"

 

Needless to say my response doesn't encourage her.

[Debut 4]

It's such a shame that the bible never mentions the number or sex of the Magi (not wise) that bore gifts.

 

So what we have is

 

Three - who knows?

Wise - who knows?

Men - who knows?

 

bore gifts - wow, nobody ever gives gifts to a newly born child.

 

I bet you think that Jesus was born in a stable surrounded by animals too.

He wasn`t then??? oh, that`s really burst my bubble then!

 

Really, whatever makes people happy in life i`m happy. Religion gives people comfort and to some it doesn`t.

 

I find the mystique about the bible and christmas fascinating and it`s what shaped my view when growing up.

 

Growing up waiting for the snow, my Dad puting the Chritsmas LP on on xmas eve to build the excitement, the school events running up to the holidays(with a message in there about jesus and what it`s all about), it was all part of growing up and it has a great power of making families feel more together.

[Sheriff Fatman]

He wasn`t then??? oh, that`s really burst my bubble then!

 

Really, whatever makes people happy in life i`m happy. Religion gives people comfort and to some it doesn`t.

 

I find the mystique about the bible and christmas fascinating and it`s what shaped my view when growing up.

 

Growing up waiting for the snow, my Dad puting the Chritsmas LP on on xmas eve to build the excitement, the school events running up to the holidays(with a message in there about jesus and what it`s all about), it was all part of growing up and it has a great power of making families feel more together.

 

If religion makes you happy then great, I really am pleased for you. I just wish people who try and use christian mythology in discussions would actually read the bible and find out which bits are actually in it and which bits are much later additions and really have nothing to do with the actual religion.

[Debut 4]

If religion makes you happy then great, I really am pleased for you. I just wish people who try and use christian mythology in discussions would actually read the bible and find out which bits are actually in it and which bits are much later additions and really have nothing to do with the actual religion.

 

Cheers pal.

[irontart]

If God created everything.......and it was good.......how the hell does Leith exist?

[BlackJAC?]

Well we all know there can't be a heaven without a hell.

[ADAM]

Atheists' bus ads on the way

 

 

 

Published Date: 22 October 2008

ATHEISTS want to buy advertising space on Edinburgh buses to tell people: "There's probably no God".

Controversial author Professor Richard Dawkins has pledged cash for the venture and more than ?20,000 has been raised in individual donations to the British Humanist Association.

 

The idea came from comedy writer Ariane Sherine, who objected to a series of Christian adverts running on London buses.

 

Now the atheists plan to hit back with their own adverts and the message. : "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.":107years:

 

The ads are due to run in London in January, and organisers then hope to extend them to other UK cities, including Edinburgh.

 

 

Quality, like it and why not, after all its a free country and people should have the right to air their views.

 

 

 

Good news - Ads will be on Edinburgh & Glasgow buses in January, possibly Aberdeen later in year. Fund now stands at over ?150,000.

[Mark_Mywords]

Good news - Ads will be on Edinburgh & Glasgow buses in January, possibly Aberdeen later in year. Fund now stands at over ?150,000.

 

How is Eve doing?

 

 

[Nelly Terraces]

How is Eve doing?

 

 

 

Arf!

[Ulysses]

How is Eve doing?

 

 

 

She's still the apple of his eye.