Turley Associates....Walk Away

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

What do you mean HBOS use more rooms per month than the festival ?

If you mean the bank have more corporate room lets than fringe performers and tattoo staff then so what. Most performers I know stay in digs and Edinburgh's 37,000 bed spaces are full in August due to tourists, not bank clients or fringe performers.

 

Of course the hotel industry isn't immune from the credit crunch but off the top of my head I can think of five new hotels in the city ploughing ahead at present (excluding Vlads) plus at least one ?10M major refurb.

 

This wouldn't be happening if occupancy rates were due to fall to a level that would make these developmenyts non-viable. You don't need 100% occupancy to make money - Edinburgh runs at 77% average - this is due to drop in the forthcoming years, but not to a level that's putting developpers off; yet.

 

Ever heard of videoconferencing? It's going to get very popular as a method of further controlling costs.

[WeeToonJambo]

Got confirmation on Saturday that the Chatham story was utter mince. The contract was up for renewal. Hearts felt the deal on offer from Citroen in Glasgow was more attractive and went with that, rather than renewing with Chatham's.

 

Don't know anything about the Turley story. However, you don't need to be an insider to work out that a combination of the construction slump and the credit crunch's impact on UBIG's ability to raise funds means that the development will be put on ice, at best.

 

Vlad's reluctance to pay bills until the last minute is well known. If Turley are due a lot of cash it wouldn't be surprising if they present a winding up petition to force his hand. IIRC a similar petition was the source of the administration rumour earlier this year.

 

Disclaimer - none of this means that I am relaxed or happy about the way the club is being run

 

I thought it might be since the Chatham's boards are still up pitchside.

 

Like many others I'm utterly bored reading about our impending demise. We've been getting these stories now for about 2 years and we're still here. From now on I think I'll just wait for an announcement from the club.

[Italian Lambretta]

I hope they don't phone me to do the gain entry and lock changes:)

 

 

 

 

This is normal business practice for Hearts - wait until the baliffs arrive with the locks and chains before we pay.

 

However I find the way we treat customers a joke, but at the same time I do not read anything into the news someone is threatning legal action against Hearts or that we are going into adminstration next week, next month or even next year....

[Jammy T]

This is normal business practice for Hearts - wait until the baliffs arrive with the locks and chains before we pay.

 

However I find the way we treat customers a joke, but at the same time I do not read anything into the news someone is threatning legal action against Hearts or that we are going into adminstration next week, next month or even next year....

 

But surely if it threatens a relationship that is key to obtaining planning permission its bordering on gross negligence

 

It is not serving the clubs best interests

[4marsbars]

As above, time will tell.

 

Not sure what we need a new stand for anyway. In the first flush of Romanomania, Tynie was filled every game and we needed a new stand to accommodate the expected multitudes.

 

Now, there is an alternative strategy for creating spare capacity in the stadium and, so far this season, it has worked a treat.

[CBjambo]

Got this info direct from an architect of said firm (not an employee of their Edinburgh branch.)

 

Turley Assoc, who worked on the planning application for us, are in the process of commencing legal action to recover unpaid monies and are trying to serve a winding-up order at the beginning of the week.

 

It's got so serious, Turley have taken down the Tynecastle development from their website.

 

http://www.turleyassociates.co.uk/content/Home2.aspx

 

Please be respectful that I'm not in a position to reveal exactly who told me, for obvious reasons.

 

I actually work for a very successful architectural firm in Edinburgh and let me tell you this is not surprising in the least. Practices all over the country are letting staff go due to unpaid monies from their clients or monies not paid in full. It is the effect of the credit crunch and we'll all be hit very hard very soon.

 

It will be another story for the papers to pour more scourn on HMFC and Vlad... but working in the industry i've seen it happen every week for months to lots of companies.

 

These are dark times.

[Heartbeat]

A certain Wallace Mercer ran Hearts in a similar manner by withholding payments and horse trading to get a reduction on the bill but didnt get anywhere near the bad publicity this regime gets.

 

It was the norm at tynecastle to trade off bills for hospitality and match tickets etc etc at that time,much to the detrement of the hospitality side. He was after all a businessman and the majority of businesses at this level use any methods they can to withhold payments for as long as possible.

 

There may be something in this but my guess (and it is just that) is that Hearts have cooled for the time being on this development and I would be more concerned if we were pressing ahead regardless. Net result is this company probably aint as important at this minute in time that they have been and this allows Hearts to string them along. The council stalling a bit is probably good news to hearts currently so long as they do eventually succeed.

 

Turley in turn have to make a move and threatening winding up orders is possibly the next move if they have exhausted all else.

 

May make business sense but the further bad press it brings to the club is not good and gives all those looking for negative stories more ammo.

 

I would like Hearts to work hard for a period on good PR just to bring a halt to the negative stories but alas I think under this regime it will just go on and on.

[Francis Albert]

But surely if it threatens a relationship that is key to obtaining planning permission its bordering on gross negligence

 

It is not serving the clubs best interests

 

I agree. People wheeling eagerly like vultures over every bit of tittle tattle ("I've had an email"), rumour and imagined crisis is not serving the clubs best interests.

[Footballfirst]

I know that Heriot-Watt received a request, last week, under data protection rules for disclosure of Hearts outstanding debts to HWU, so it would seem that some court action is currently in progress.

 

As it happens Hearts debts to HWU is relatively low at this time i.e. 16-17k.

[walton1983]

I know that Heriot-Watt received a request, last week, under data protection rules for disclosure of Hearts outstanding debts to HWU, so it would seem that some court action is currently in progress.

 

As it happens Hearts debts to HWU is relatively low at this time i.e. 16-17k.

 

How much do Hearts pay for use of Heriot Watt? ?16k or ?17k seems quite a lot for a uni to be owed.

[Footballfirst]

How much do Hearts pay for use of Heriot Watt? ?16k or ?17k seems quite a lot for a uni to be owed.

Hearts pay around ?72K a quarter. As far as I know this covers rates, heating and lighting etc. I'm not sure about groundsman duties.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I agree. People wheeling eagerly like vultures over every bit of tittle tattle ("I've had an email"), rumour and imagined crisis is not serving the clubs best interests.

 

Excellent point. Clearly people saying things on an internet message board is the big issue here - that is what really damages the clubs reputation, whilst less important things like the real relationships HMFC has with its partners, are not really worth bothering about.

[Charlie-Brown]

I remember going to a supporters meeting with MacDonald and Jardine around about the time the 'Back from the Brink' video was released and Alex MacDonald reminisced about how in his early days as player manager several times it happened that Wallace Mercer would phone him up at night saying make sure you get the players away out early, make sure you take all the training kit with you and don't train at tynecastle cos we're expecting the sheriff officers in the morning....

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I remember going to a supporters meeting with MacDonald and Jardine around about the time the 'Back from the Brink' video was released and Alex MacDonald reminisced about how in his early days as player manager several times it happened that Wallace Mercer would phone him up at night saying make sure you get the players away out early, make sure you take all the training kit with you and don't train at tynecastle cos we're expecting the sheriff officers in the morning....

 

Oh well, in that case, it's nothing to worry about. Bring on the sherriffs officers.

 

Now, back to real problems. If we can just get Robbie Neilson out the door, everything will be perfect at HMFC.

[Charlie-Brown]

Oh well, in that case, it's nothing to worry about. Bring on the sherriffs officers.

 

Now, back to real problems. If we can just get Robbie Neilson out the door, everything will be perfect at HMFC.

 

I see your back then. I missed you!

 

[Jammy T]

I agree. People wheeling eagerly like vultures over every bit of tittle tattle ("I've had an email"), rumour and imagined crisis is not serving the clubs best interests.

 

What - "cartoon" internet personas on a messageboard? Yeah, people on JKB really are bringing the club to the brink.

 

IF it is true, and IF Turley are a key part of the process for planning, and IF they are properly due the monies it is negligent of a company to risk that relationship so that money stays in its bank for longer than its contractors.

 

Surely even a muppet like Romanov is aware that the extra interest costs and potential legal expenses of such incidents means he isnt actually saving anything in any event?

 

Unless of course he CANT pay it, which means we are actually in some form of trouble

[Francis Albert]

Excellent point. Clearly people saying things on an internet message board is the big issue here - that is what really damages the clubs reputation, whilst less important things like the real relationships HMFC has with its partners, are not really worth bothering about.

 

That as you know is not what I said.

 

Look, I have no idea what the chances are of Vlad failing to continue to provide cash and Hearts going belly up. I do know that this has been talked about as imminent for two years. Neither I think does anyone else know. But if a general perception gets around that Hearts are not credit-worthy and are dangerous to do business with then it doesn't help, IMO. And you know that even the "quality" papers let alone the red-tops pay some attention to forums like this. That's all I said. Over-reacting to every unsubstantiated bit of rumour and hearsay (like the story that Chathams had pulled out because they didn't want to be associated with the club) doesn't help. IMO. That's all I said.

 

Now I recognise that there may be some on here who don't care that it doesn't help and indeed positively want to help in whatever way they can to get Hearts into administration as soon as possible. Fine, they have their say. I'll have mine.

[Only a Game]

 

What do you mean HBOS use more rooms per month than the festival ?

If you mean the bank have more corporate room lets than fringe performers and tattoo staff then so what. Most performers I know stay in digs and Edinburgh's 37' date='000 bed spaces are full in August due to tourists, not bank clients or fringe performers.

 

Of course the hotel industry isn't immune from the credit crunch but off the top of my head I can think of [b']five [/b]new hotels in the city ploughing ahead at present (excluding Vlads) plus at least one ?10M major refurb.

 

This wouldn't be happening if occupancy rates were due to fall to a level that would make these developmenyts non-viable. You don't need 100% occupancy to make money - Edinburgh runs at 77% average - this is due to drop in the forthcoming years, but not to a level that's putting developpers off; yet.

 

Edinburgh doesnt have 37,000 bed spaces. Nothing like it

 

HBOS are THEY KEY corporate client for several large Edinburgh hotels. That business is currently under serious threat. Wont disappear altogether but is expected to reduce by something like 70% in the next year, depending on what HBOS do with their HQ's and call centres.

 

Yes the festival is the golden egg for Edinburgh Hotels but its only 3 weeks a year and it was down 8% in occuopancy this year.

 

If Edinburgh runs at 77% occupancy (which it does incidentally) that means it runs with 23% of its beds empty. The obvious conclusion to draw from that is that we dont currently need more beds /hotels.

 

Edinburgh has just seen occupancy drop by 5.9% this year and expects it to be drop a further 7.9% next year.

 

The latest major hotel to be built in Edinburgh is about to make 30% of its staff redundant

[coppercrutch]

Of course the hotel industry isn't immune from the credit crunch but off the top of my head I can think of five new hotels in the city ploughing ahead at present (excluding Vlads) plus at least one ?10M major refurb.

 

This wouldn't be happening if occupancy rates were due to fall to a level that would make these developmenyts non-viable. You don't need 100% occupancy to make money - Edinburgh runs at 77% average - this is due to drop in the forthcoming years, but not to a level that's putting developpers off; yet.

 

Just like builders wouldn't be shooting up 2 bed 'apartments' last year..........

 

The vast majority of people running these companies know very little about the bigger picture. They know a lot about building and their individual sectors of course. However that is getting less and less important by the day.

 

The fact hotels are still being built today means little.

[scott herbertson]

 

Edinburgh doesnt have 37' date='000 bed spaces. Nothing like it

 

HBOS are THEY KEY corporate client for several large Edinburgh hotels. That business is currently under serious threat. Wont disappear altogether but is expected to reduce by something like 70% in the next year, depending on what HBOS do with their HQ's and call centres.

 

Yes the festival is the golden egg for Edinburgh Hotels but its only 3 weeks a year and it was down 8% in occuopancy this year.

 

If Edinburgh runs at 77% occupancy (which it does incidentally) that means it runs with 23% of its beds empty. The obvious conclusion to draw from that is that we dont currently need more beds /hotels.

 

Edinburgh has just seen occupancy drop by 5.9% this year and expects it to be drop a further 7.9% next year.

 

The latest major hotel to be built in Edinburgh is about to make 30% of its staff redundant[/quote']

 

Outside London most cities run below 75% occupancy rates - the non London rate is 73% nationally.

 

There are still plenty of plans for new hotels which are unlikely to be shelved, but I guess there are also quite a few developers not sleeping well.

 

I would think any developer who has not started a scheme will be calling for a review of theproject, not necessarily scrapping yet. If the economy turns around there will be money to be made, though the market may be different

[Only a Game]

 

Outside London most cities run below 75% occupancy rates - the non London rate is 73% nationally.

 

There are still plenty of plans for new hotels which are unlikely to be shelved' date=' but I guess there are also quite a few developers not sleeping well.

 

I would think any developer who has not started a scheme will be calling for a review of theproject, not necessarily scrapping yet. If the economy turns around there will be money to be made, though the market may be different[/quote']

 

The plans to build all these extra hotels are on the back of a report which everyone in the Edinburgh hotel industry knows is seriously flawed. Numbers for growth in occupancy were plucked out of the air and given credence they didnt warrant. No evidence was presented to identify where all this extra demand is coming from. The report is nothing more than wishful thinking.

 

When the economy turns around, at least 3 years will be spent just getting back to where we were a year ago in terms of occupancy.

 

Extra hotels will simply make an already highly competitive market all the more competitive. This means lower rates and lower profits and the same size cake merely being cut into more pieces.

[jlo2]

Just like builders wouldn't be shooting up 2 bed 'apartments' last year..........

 

The vast majority of people running these companies know very little about the bigger picture. They know a lot about building and their individual sectors of course. However that is getting less and less important by the day.

 

The fact hotels are still being built today means little.

All that it means is that at the time the projects were commissioned (two or three years ago?) the clients believed there was a market.

[scott herbertson]

 

The plans to build all these extra hotels are on the back of a report which everyone in the Edinburgh hotel industry knows is seriously flawed. Numbers for growth in occupancy were plucked out of the air and given credence they didnt warrant. No evidence was presented to identify where all this extra demand is coming from. The report is nothing more than wishful thinking.

 

When the economy turns around' date=' at least 3 years will be spent just getting back to where we were a year ago in terms of occupancy.

 

Extra hotels will simply make an already highly competitive market all the more competitive. This means lower rates and lower profits and the same size cake merely being cut into more pieces.[/quote']

 

I was referring to plans across Britain.

 

Until very recently new hotels were being planned. This month, I'd guess there's some sweaty executives poring over financing packages and checking their e mails constantly.

 

What I am saying is that I think there was a general belief that the hotel market was bouyant until very recently

 

These are the kind of industry stats that encouraged this belief:

 

http://www.caterersearch.com/Articles/2008/06/05/320168/tri-hotstats-annual-uk-hotel-figures-industry-data.html

 

As long as the credit crunch was possibly a short term phenomenon then hotel building for the other side of the blip could have been seen as smart. With the benefit of hindsight it won't be looking so smart now. In London it is still probably seen as smart simply because the hotels wil come on tap just before the Olympics. The problem will be the current cost of money.

[felix]

Edinburgh doesnt have 37,000 bed spaces. Nothing like it

Edinburgh Tourist Board disagree..http://www.edinburgh-inspiringcapital.com/pdf.aspx?page=565.

HBOS are THEY KEY corporate client for several large Edinburgh hotels. That business is currently under serious threat

How many bed spaces do HBOS rent per month in Edinburgh ? I'll wager it's a tiny proportion of the available rooms. The industry's right to be wary of a banking downturn, but not for the reasons you hint at.

If Edinburgh runs at 77% occupancy (which it does incidentally) that means it runs with 23% of its beds empty. The obvious conclusion to draw from that is that we dont currently need more beds /hotels.

. Whether we need them or not is a different argument but running a hotel at 75% occupancy will still make you bucketloads. Fact. Even Vlad knows this.

Just like builders wouldn't be shooting up 2 bed 'apartments' last year..........

There's lots of builders shooting up right now; in sheer desperation. However apartments finished last year were most likely planned in their infancy 3 or 4 years ago, when the market was buoyant.

The latest major hotel to be built in Edinburgh is about to make 30% of its staff redundant

Which one ?

The plans to build all these extra hotels are on the back of a report which everyone in the Edinburgh hotel industry knows is seriously flawed.

All the major operators still want a slice of the pie in Edinburgh - they know the market and would be pulling out of the developments I touched on earlier even at the slightest hint of a tourism downturn. Fact is - they're not.

[david mcgee]

Holey moley, the financial sector is bust, the tourist industry is kapoot, any sad tourist that comes to visit our roadworks will have numerous hotels to choose from, not to mention plenty of flats to let at rock bottom prices.

[jlo2]

How many bed spaces do HBOS rent per month in Edinburgh ? I'll wager it's a tiny proportion of the available rooms. The industry's right to be wary of a banking downturn, but not for the reasons you hint at.

It's not really just about bed spaces but hire of function suites and corporate catering. It is a major money spinner for the hotel sector. It beats letting out budget hotel rooms anyway.

 

HBOS are cutting down on spending in this area. My daughter manages a west end hotel restaurant. Her hotel is actually gaining business from HBOS because they are scaling down from four and five star hotels to three stars to save money.

 

Things are tight in the Edinburgh hotel sector at the moment.

[LSS]

I know that Heriot-Watt received a request, last week, under data protection rules for disclosure of Hearts outstanding debts to HWU, so it would seem that some court action is currently in progress.

 

As it happens Hearts debts to HWU is relatively low at this time i.e. 16-17k.

 

Court business iis freely available on the net.

Just go to

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/

 

and trawl throught the dialy lists if you can be ersed.

 

Personally imo life is too short.

[coppercrutch]

All that it means is that at the time the projects were commissioned (two or three years ago?) the clients believed there was a market.

 

I totally agree. However most of these people are not very forward looking. I am not an expert on the hotel trade by any means.

 

However I think I can safely say it relies massively on finance and tourism in this City ?

 

The outlook for both in the next 3-5 years is bleak to put it mildly.

 

Therefore any plans to build a hotel in this city will have to be made on extremely revised expectations. If the people in charge have any sense.

 

Just look at the housing market as the perfect example. Apparently there was a massive 'shortage' of housing this time last year. Now they have stopped building as there are plenty of houses and nobody is interested in buying them....

 

I can see the hotel trade going exactly the same way. I see no reason for it not to.

 

A shortage of something can turn into a surplus almost overnight.

[scott herbertson]

I totally agree. However most of these people are not very forward looking. I am not an expert on the hotel trade by any means.

 

However I think I can safely say it relies massively on finance and tourism in this City ?

 

The outlook for both in the next 3-5 years is bleak to put it mildly.

 

Therefore any plans to build a hotel in this city will have to be made on extremely revised expectations. If the people in charge have any sense.

 

Just look at the housing market as the perfect example. Apparently there was a massive 'shortage' of housing this time last year. Now they have stopped building as there are plenty of houses and nobody is interested in buying them....

 

I can see the hotel trade going exactly the same way. I see no reason for it not to.

 

A shortage of something can turn into a surplus almost overnight.

 

I agree

 

Hence i would guess there is no chance of the stadium plans proceeding at present

 

 

So Romanov will likely be trying to stop any further expenditure and pay any bills as late as possible

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...like architects bills......

[Jammy T]

Is there actually some debate as to whether this "project" should still go ahead?

[felix]

It's not really just about bed spaces but hire of function suites and corporate catering. It is a major money spinner for the hotel sector. It beats letting out budget hotel rooms anyway.

 

HBOS are cutting down on spending in this area. My daughter manages a west end hotel restaurant. Her hotel is actually gaining business from HBOS because they are scaling down from four and five star hotels to three stars to save money.

 

Things are tight in the Edinburgh hotel sector at the moment.

 

Fair point and you're right - the conference market is a huge money spinner for Edinburgh's 4* + hotels and the banks contribute to that income however comments were directed to OAG's assertion that :-

HBOS are (currently) the Edinburgh Hotel industry's number one corporate client and that they use more bedrooms EVERY month in Edinburgh than are used by the Edinburgh festival, Fringe and Tattoo....

[Only a Game]

Edinburgh Tourist Board disagree..http://www.edinburgh-inspiringcapital.com/pdf.aspx?page=565.

 

I was referring to hotel beds. They are counting B&B's, guest houses, apartments and other lodgings. Proper hotel beds in Edinburgh number around 10,500

 

How many bed spaces do HBOS rent per month in Edinburgh ? I'll wager it's a tiny proportion of the available rooms. The industry's right to be wary of a banking downturn, but not for the reasons you hint at.

. Whether we need them or not is a different argument but running a hotel at 75% occupancy will still make you bucketloads. Fact. Even Vlad knows this.

 

HBOS use 97,000 room nights per annum at the last count. Thats more per month that can be directly attributed to the festivals. Tourists come here from May to October and the festival is only for 3 weeks. Presumably they would still come in August if there was no festival, just as they come in July when there is no festival.

 

There's lots of builders shooting up right now; in sheer desperation. However apartments finished last year were most likely planned in their infancy 3 or 4 years ago, when the market was buoyant.

 

Which one ?

I cant tell you that, as its not in the public domain yet

All the major operators still want a slice of the pie in Edinburgh - they know the market and would be pulling out of the developments I touched on earlier even at the slightest hint of a tourism downturn. Fact is - they're not.

 

Which 5 new hotels are CURRENTLY being built as you said earlier. I know which one was refurbished and they HAD to do it as their reputation was in the dirt ?

[felix]

HBOS use 97,000 room nights per annum at the last count.

 

That's 265 lets PER DAY -

So HBOS essentially fill the equivalent of the Sheraton every day of the year

 

The five new hotels I was thinking of were Quartermile, Caltongate, Hotel du Vin and the two at Haymarket.

[david mcgee]

That's 265 lets PER DAY -

So HBOS essentially fill the equivalent of the Sheraton every day of the year

 

The five new hotels I was thinking of were Quartermile, Caltongate, Hotel du Vin and the two at Haymarket.

 

Theres a new hotel at the Gyle.

[Coco]

That's 265 lets PER DAY -

So HBOS essentially fill the equivalent of the Sheraton every day of the year

 

The five new hotels I was thinking of were Quartermile, Caltongate, Hotel du Vin and the two at Haymarket.

 

There is a Missoni Hotel in the horrific new development at George IV Bridge/Royal Mile.

[Charlie-Brown]

There is also a big new Apex Hotel in what was the former City Council housing dept. offices in Waterloo Place.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Theres a new hotel at the Gyle.

 

4 star Novotel I believe.

[Seymour M Hersh]

That's 265 lets PER DAY -

So HBOS essentially fill the equivalent of the Sheraton every day of the year

 

The five new hotels I was thinking of were Quartermile, Caltongate, Hotel du Vin and the two at Haymarket.

 

That's surely for the whole of the UK and not just Edinburgh. However my wife's company book anywhere up to 20 rooms a week in Edinburgh so who knows.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

Bump!

 

All quiet on the winding-up front!

[Makween]

These stories have been going on forever.

 

And people kep beleiveing them.

 

 

maybe one will eventually be true.

 

I dunno.

 

But im bored of them.

 

They are always started by someone with about 20 posts. Who then disappears and says nothing more.

 

I call that stirring,

 

yes one story may have fact. But the 500 before it might also...but didnt.

 

Ill worry when soemthing like this is confirmed in public. Not by someone ive never heard off on KB.

 

Okay.

 

Edit : I was at Novotel at the Gyle for a course with my work the other week. It was very nice. The hotel that is, not the course. The course was boring, but the food was nice.

[adayinmay]

Bump!

 

All quiet on the winding-up front!

 

Was thinking that too.

 

Today's story is about Driver being fit for next weekend, so it must be tomorrow that we go into administration and the world starts to melt.

[Groot]

Was thinking that too.

 

Today's story is about Driver being fit for next weekend, so it must be tomorrow that we go into administration and the world starts to melt.

 

Out of interest did anybody notice that the OP EH32 9FP is now Banned, for Hobo related activities by chance?

[Mysterion]

Theres a new hotel at the Gyle.

 

it's more on the periphery of the Sighthill Industrial Estate (my office is a min away from it)

[grumpyjambo]

Have I missed Turleys announcement today?