Arsene Wenger (DHC)

[Drylaw Hearts]

Takeovers threaten Managers Role

 

Arsene Wenger today admitted he fears the authority of managers in the Premier League could disappear after the wave of foreign takeovers in England.

 

With Manchester City becoming the eighth English top-flight club to come under foreign ownership, the Arsenal manager claims European structures are transforming the traditional dominant role of domestic bosses.

 

Clubs are increasingly employing a director of football or a sporting director with overall responsibility for negotiating transfers and deciding the make-up of playing squads.

 

Such shift in power and its knock-on effects for managers contributed to Alan Curbishley and Kevin Keegan resigning at West Ham and Newcastle respectively.

 

Wenger said: "I am scared not that clubs are becoming more like those on the continent but even less. On the continent, at least you are informed on what players you buy. It looks like some are not even informed any more.

 

"It looks to be going a very worrying way. Managers face responsibilities and we stand up for it, but at least you want to feel you are responsible for the decisions you are judged on."

 

City's owner-elect Dr Sulaiman Al-Fahim, of the Abu Dhabi United Group for Development and Investment (ADUG), has talked of bidding ?135million for Cristiano Ronaldo and has suggested he will bring in as many as 18 new players in January.

 

But Wenger believes such talk is counter-productive for football's future.

 

He said: "Clubs should live within their natural resources. If you push that too far, there are no rules any more and there is too much destabilisation.

 

 

Sounds familiar.

[Ogi fae Gorgie]

Unfortunately DH seems to be the way now. Money talks. Its the way football seems to be evolving. It will be the norm in next 10-15 years. I remember as a 16 year old at work getting told by older guy that 'the job is fecked son' 37 years later it still is but now I am saying it.

[Charlie-Brown]

The amount of money that football requires now also means that the only people who have that kind of money are the super-wealthy many of whom have made their wealth by following their own decisions and have enough power that they seldom have to defer to anyone else.

 

People often cite Randy Lerner as the model 'foreign' owner but I often wonder is that simply because both he & Martin O'Neill agree on the same strategy? It would be interesting to see how Lerner would respond if he had a football manager who was at odds with him? Mike Ashley is British but he shares many of the same traits attributed to foreign owners.

[Uberjambo]

Another one he didn't see (Coming)

[The Vulture]

The guy is jealous, if he had that sort of budget (that Manchester City appear to have) he wouldn't be complaining.

 

He says clubs should live within their natural resources, yet which Premiership clubs have bank balances in the black ?

 

But then money always hasn't bought success, lets remember that Man Utd went 20 years + without winning the premiership, this despite having bigger gates and other resources than championship winning clubs.

[bigwull22]

Would you hand over 500 mill to an ex footballer that basically left school at 14? Of course you wouldn't, their job is to coach and scout players as thats where their expertise lies. Leave the money descisions to the owner/accountants to sort out.

[Drylaw Hearts]

The amount of money that football requires now also means that the only people who have that kind of money are the super-wealthy many of whom have made their wealth by following their own decisions and have enough power that they seldom have to defer to anyone else.

 

People often cite Randy Lerner as the model 'foreign' owner but I often wonder is that simply because both he & Martin O'Neill agree on the same strategy? It would be interesting to see how Lerner would respond if he had a football manager who was at odds with him? Mike Ashley is British but he shares many of the same traits attributed to foreign owners.

 

The same strategy being that Martin O'Neill is the man best qualified to make decision on who he buys, picks etc ?

[Drylaw Hearts]

Would you hand over 500 mill to an ex footballer that basically left school at 14? Of course you wouldn't, their job is to coach and scout players as thats where their expertise lies. Leave the money descisions to the owner/accountants to sort out.

 

Are you saying that Wenger and Ferguson should only coach and scout players ?

 

Are you suggesting that Man U and Arsenal have been getting it wrong all these years ?

[bigwull22]

Are you saying that Wenger and Ferguson should only coach and scout players ?

 

Are you suggesting that Man U and Arsenal have been getting it wrong all these years ?

And you're telling me they carry out all the transfer negotiations. They identify playes they want(scout) inform the board/accountants and they decide if they can afford to go for them so Ferguson and Wenger are just coaches and scouts.

[Drylaw Hearts]

And you're telling me they carry out all the transfer negotiations. They identify playes they want(scout) inform the board/accountants and they decide if they can afford to go for them so Ferguson and Wenger are just coaches and scouts.

 

 

They are both Managers.

 

Do Scouts decide which players a Club should buy ?

 

Or do they make recommendations to a Manager or DOF ?

[Charlie-Brown]

The same strategy being that Martin O'Neill is the man best qualified to make decision on who he buys, picks etc ?

 

There isn't a conflict at Villa over the cost & profile over the kind of players the club should be signing where as at Newcastle & elsewhere there was - not all club owners trust solely the managers judgement and want a DOF as second opinion. Of course managers should have a major input into transfer policy as they have to produce results with the squad they have however managers should not be the sole arbiter of who is bought & sold.

[redm]

Where's the sense of achievement if everything is simply down to money and who has it available to spend? I totally agree with Wenger's comments about living within natural limits and means, or at least trying to do so.... Not that many SPL clubs are managing that but at least the excesses are vaguely proportional to the size of the club with most except Hearts.

 

Fans moan about debt and overspending but really, they want these owners to spend vast sums of their own cash from their own pockets, and without complaint. But if their owner has less cash than the next club, they'll moan about it being unfair and excessive.

 

Football is becoming uglier by the day.

[adayinmay]

Sounds familiar.

 

Some of it does.

The bit that doesn't is the foreign owner coming in and spending millions of pounds. VR hasn't spent a penny of his own money.

 

VR does the control thing without paying for the privilege.

 

Generally its the way things are going and the way its been on the Continent for some time.

[bigwull22]

They are both Managers.

 

Do Scouts decide which players a Club should buy ?

 

Or do they make recommendations to a Manager or DOF ?

 

Its a matter of opinion. They do not carry out the financial dealings and therfore basically just coaches. They make recommendations to the board on players and the board decides whether to go for the player or not, not Ferguson or Wenger.

[Charlie-Brown]

Where's the sense of achievement if everything is simply down to money and who has it available to spend? I totally agree with Wenger's comments about living within natural limits and means, or at least trying to do so.... Not that many SPL clubs are managing that but at least the excesses are vaguely proportional to the size of the club with most except Hearts.

 

Fans moan about debt and overspending but really, they want these owners to spend vast sums of their own cash from their own pockets, and without complaint. But if their owner has less cash than the next club, they'll moan about it being unfair and excessive.

 

Football is becoming uglier by the day.

 

I agree that clubs should be run in a financially responsible manner redm - that is only logical & common sense BUT the logical conclusion of that is that it would be very difficult for smaller clubs to close the gap & compete with bigger clubs - Iam not advocating clubs should continually overspend and in the long term if they don't balance the books they will go bust or sink under a mountain of debt but there has to be a period of investment or spending to help grow the club, note this could be spending on infrastructure, stadium & facilities etc that can earn additional revenue it doesn't just have to be spending on (hopefully) better players.

[redm]

I agree that clubs should be run in a financially responsible manner redm - that is only logical & common sense BUT the logical conclusion of that is that it would be very difficult for smaller clubs to close the gap & compete with bigger clubs - Iam not advocating clubs should continually overspend and in the long term if they don't they will go bust or sink under a mountain of debt but there has to be a period of investment or spending to help grow the club, note this could be spending on infrastructure, stadium & facilities etc that can earn additional revenue it doesn't just have to be spending on (hopefully) better players.

 

Oh yes, of course. I was just referring to excessive spending such as that mentioned by the new Man City owners over the last few days. The idea that they'll pay well over market value (already vastly inflated imho for some players) just to get the names that they want is a bit frightening. The reality of the situation could be very different, granted, but it just suggests that top tier football could be heading in a very ugly direction.

 

There will always be a gap between the top and the bottom, or even the top and the middle....but when there's a huge, almighty gulf between the top 4 or 5 and everyone else, then it becomes pointless and artificial.

[gorgie rd eh11]

Don't see what he's got to moan about. He seemed quite happy for europes big clubs to stitch up the champions league so that the same faces can pocket all the cash from that every year. This sort of stuff only bothers him because the likes of City might make his life a bit harder. It's the competition he's scared of, not the way other clubs are run.

[Charlie-Brown]

When Liverpool dominated english football in the seventies and eighties it was still possible for Leeds, Forest, Derby to win the league a couple of times each, it was possible for clubs like West Brom, Ipswich & Watford to finish in the top four - yes Liverpool were a big club and generated good money however Aston Villa, Manchester Utd etc were just as big with good crowds in that period .... since the inception of the premier league the same few clubs have been utterly dominant - Manchester United have never been as successful as they are now and whilst Ferguson is a great manager the bigger part of their dominance comes from the fact that economically since the Premier League & Champions League began they have dwarfed other clubs in the amount of money / power they now generate - other big clubs like Arsenal & Liverpool have managed to hang onto their coat tails and have had some success however only Chelsea when they started to spend ridiculous & hitherto unimaginable amounts managed to break Man Utd's stranglehold for a couple of years.

 

It's not a good situation - the EPL clubs generate vastly more amounts of money than any other league in the world yet almost all of them are running at a loss and racking up huge debts - what should be a very profitable business given the huge sums of money coming in is actually losing money at a staggering pace and most of the money is being sucked out of the game by players & agents - it's a gravy train and people are earning vast amounts as long as tv & sponsors throw huge sums at it - however it has ruined the competitiveness of english, british & european football and it is devalueing football as a sport of merit.

[CraigSN1]

Some of it does.

The bit that doesn't is the foreign owner coming in and spending millions of pounds. VR hasn't spent a penny of his own money.

 

VR does the control thing without paying for the privilege.

 

Generally its the way things are going and the way its been on the Continent for some time.

 

 

How anyone can say that i sha'll never know.

[1874robbo]

How anyone can say that i sha'll never know.

 

Agreed.

[rudi]

How anyone can say that i sha'll never know.

 

Because he hasn't,all the money he spent went straight on to our debt,which was up to ?38m at one point.

 

Vald has used other peoples money to buy HMFC.

 

If he has used his own personal wealth,how on earth are we in such debt.

[JamboSean]

The Premiership is now a billionaires play thing.

 

Who ever has the most money is more likely to win. Very little to do with the talent of your manager.

 

Look at Chelsea for example. Ranieri was given a blank cheque book to get Chelsea close to the title. What manager couldn't do that? Hughes will be given a blank cheque book. Wenger and Ferguson 99% of the time will always get the player they want. The challenge is gone.

 

The real talented managers are down the lower leagues who are set a budget and have to do the best they can with it. They've not got the 40 odd million to splash out each season on Europe's top talent. They have to do endless work searching for obscure finds in lower leagues or in their own leagues to enhance their team. Now that's something more admirable.

[Drylaw Hearts]

The real talented managers are down the lower leagues who are set a budget and have to do the best they can with it. They've not got the 40 odd million to splash out each season on Europe's top talent. They have to do endless work searching for obscure finds in lower leagues or in their own leagues to enhance their team. Now that's something more admirable.

 

Agreed.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Arsenal is just about the best run club in the English Premiership. It would be a shame if somebody was to come in and ruin that. They seem to have everybody pulling in the same direction, a brilliant manager with full autonomy, even an understanding support who aren't baying for unachievable success.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Arsenal is just about the best run club in the English Premiership. It would be a shame if somebody was to come in and ruin that. They seem to have everybody pulling in the same direction, a brilliant manager with full autonomy, even an understanding support who aren't baying for unachievable success.

 

They struck gold with Arsene Wenger.

[JamboSean]

Arsenal is just about the best run club in the English Premiership. It would be a shame if somebody was to come in and ruin that. They seem to have everybody pulling in the same direction, a brilliant manager with full autonomy, even an understanding support who aren't baying for unachievable success.

 

Wenger is Arsenal. He has a say over almost everything to do with the club. Transfers, team selection, youth policy, the stadium development, any major decisions on the board.

 

When he packs it in, Arsenal will have to find 3 or 4 men to replace him, he does that much.

 

Saying all that, they've won nothing in how long now?

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Wenger is Arsenal. He has a say over almost everything to do with the club. Transfers, team selection, youth policy, the stadium development, any major decisions on the board.

 

When he packs it in, Arsenal will have to find 3 or 4 men to replace him, he does that much.

 

Saying all that, they've won nothing in how long now?

 

But...

 

That's the beauty of that club and that man. They haven't won anything in more than two years, they frequently sell their best players when they're still at their peak, but still they turn a profit, keep the fans happy and compete. They should be studied by the owners of every British club.

[siegementality]

The guy is jealous, if he had that sort of budget (that Manchester City appear to have) he wouldn't be complaining.

 

He says clubs should live within their natural resources, yet which Premiership clubs have bank balances in the black ?

 

But then money always hasn't bought success, lets remember that Man Utd went 20 years + without winning the premiership, this despite having bigger gates and other resources than championship winning clubs.

 

I would doubt Arsene Wenger is jealous of anybody. Arsenal do just nicely at the moment.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7624733.stm

[JamboSean]

But...

 

That's the beauty of that club and that man. They haven't won anything in more than two years, they frequently sell their best players when they're still at their peak, but still they turn a profit, keep the fans happy and compete. They should be studied by the owners of every British club.

 

In any other league that would be correct. Not in the Permiership any more. If Man City spend like they've promised, Chelsea and Man U carry on spenging the way they have, where does that leave Arsenal?

 

The bank balance and pretty football will only sway the fans for so long. I don't think Arsenal fans will still be delighted to see great young players coming through and sold at a profit when they've been trophyless for X ammount of years.

 

Realisticly, all it would take is another club to be taken over and made scarily rich and Arsenal and Liverpool would be out of the Champions League places. That is if Man City do live up to the hype.

 

Tremedous respect for the way Arsenal have managed themselves and I wish Hearts would do the same, but it won't cut it when it comes to success in England.

[siegementality]

In any other league that would be correct. Not in the Permiership any more. If Man City spend like they've promised, Chelsea and Man U carry on spenging the way they have, where does that leave Arsenal?

 

The bank balance and pretty football will only sway the fans for so long. I don't think Arsenal fans will still be delighted to see great young players coming through and sold at a profit when they've been trophyless for X ammount of years.

 

Realisticly, all it would take is another club to be taken over and made scarily rich and Arsenal and Liverpool would be out of the Champions League places. That is if Man City do live up to the hype.

 

Tremedous respect for the way Arsenal have managed themselves and I wish Hearts would do the same, but it won't cut it when it comes to success in England.

 

What did Chelseas millions win them last year?

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

In any other league that would be correct. Not in the Permiership any more. If Man City spend like they've promised, Chelsea and Man U carry on spenging the way they have, where does that leave Arsenal?

 

The bank balance and pretty football will only sway the fans for so long. I don't think Arsenal fans will still be delighted to see great young players coming through and sold at a profit when they've been trophyless for X ammount of years.

 

Realisticly, all it would take is another club to be taken over and made scarily rich and Arsenal and Liverpool would be out of the Champions League places. That is if Man City do live up to the hype.

 

Tremedous respect for the way Arsenal have managed themselves and I wish Hearts would do the same, but it won't cut it when it comes to success in England.

 

It's a very good point. If Man City do start to encroach on the top four then things could change rapidly.

[JamboSean]

What did Chelseas millions win them last year?

 

Nothing. What about the previous two years though?

 

Last year Chelsea's millions did get them to a Carling Cup Final, losing the league on the last day and losing the Champions League on penalties.

 

That's not my point though. My point was that money is everything in the Premiership now. If you don't have it, you'll do nothing.

[JamboSean]

It's a very good point. If Man City do start to encroach on the top four then things could change rapidly.

 

It would indeed. If they brought in enough quality to guarentee themselves a top 4 finish each season, and they have the money to do so. That would leave Liverpool or Arsenal missing out on Champions League football every year. That is a lot of money to be losing out on.