It seems that for years, teams like Falkirk and Airdrie have...

[Buffalo Bill]

...always been well up for a scrap against Hearts.

 

 

Add to that list Dundee, Dunfermline, Motherwell and Livingston.

 

 

They are all smaller teams than Hearts.

 

They are all within a reasonable proximity of Edinburgh.

 

They usually have some recent player or manager connection to Hearts.

 

And they somehow try and wangle some sort of derby-style grudge against us.

 

 

Examples of this include Motherwell's hatred of us which stems back to the early 90s when we went about 20 games unbeaten against us and there was a lot of stuff said by their players through the papers.

 

The Airdrie thing is more apparent. Packed full of ex-Hearts men, they've been a serious pain in the but about 17 years now. I don't think we've beaten them in over 10 games.

 

Dunfermline, with their army of replica strip wearing angst-ridden teenagers treat a game at Tynecastle like a derby.

 

And ditto that for Falkirk.

 

All this has cost us serious amounts of league points and potential cup success. I?m not what we can do to improve our record against these annoying little brothers of football teams because each new era of Hearts team goes into these games hopelessly under-prepared for both the mental and physical fight.

 

And it?s not just a Csaba and Vlad who?ve fallen foul to this. Add John Robertson, Sandy Clark, Henry Smith etc to this long list of woe.

 

Well organised, well up-for-it, in-your-face football goes a long way in this country.

 

Especially, it seems, if your opponents are Hearts. We?re like a red rag to a bull.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Charlie-Brown]

Dunfermline, Motherwell, Dundee & Livingston have all been an annoyance and we've lost games or dropped points to them from time to time but we've also beaten them fairly regularly in the same period as well.

 

But Falkirk away and Airdrie anywhere are serious long term bogey b'stards.

[jambonian]

That's the problem though, those teams know we are bigger than them so they go at us righjt from the start, the only people to blame for losing these games are the Hearts teams themselves. They go into them thinking we only have to turn up and we'll win, more often than not, they have managers who tell them how to play Hearts, if i was a manager of these types of teams, i'd tell them to keep it tight,for the first 20/25 minutes and try catching them on the break, the Hearts fans will get on their backs which will effect the confidence of the players and then bookings are inevitible.

Hearts need to change their attitude to these teams, treat them as if they were Rangers,Celtic,Aberdeen or Hibs, that way, you'll find we'd win more of these types of matches.

[Coco]

One thing we have suffered from is underestimating the physical flooded midfields that these teams play against us.

 

Because of our manager rotation/committee system we regularly field lightweight teams and never learn from previous problems.

[maroonlegions]

...always been well up for a scrap against Hearts.

 

 

Add to that list Dundee, Dunfermline, Motherwell and Livingston.

 

 

They are all smaller teams than Hearts.

 

They are all within a reasonable proximity of Edinburgh.

 

They usually have some recent player or manager connection to Hearts.

 

And they somehow try and wangle some sort of derby-style grudge against us.

 

 

Examples of this include Motherwell's hatred of us which stems back to the early 90s when we went about 20 games unbeaten against us and there was a lot of stuff said by their players through the papers.

 

The Airdrie thing is more apparent. Packed full of ex-Hearts men, they've been a serious pain in the but about 17 years now. I don't think we've beaten them in over 10 games.

 

Dunfermline, with their army of replica strip wearing angst-ridden teenagers treat a game at Tynecastle like a derby.

 

And ditto that for Falkirk.

 

All this has cost us serious amounts of league points and potential cup success. I?m not what we can do to improve our record against these annoying little brothers of football teams because each new era of Hearts team goes into these games hopelessly under-prepared for both the mental and physical fight.

 

And it?s not just a Csaba and Vlad who?ve fallen foul to this. Add John Robertson, Sandy Clark, Henry Smith etc to this long list of woe.

 

Well organised, well up-for-it, in-your-face football goes a long way in this country.

 

Especially, it seems, if your opponents are Hearts. We?re like a red rag to a bull.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

 

 

 

Totally agree with the above,they are like a bad smell hanging around which you just cannot put your finger on , the first half display was a sound example of not being mentally prepared enough for their in your faces type of game, the players must have knew that they would be right up for it, too many times we have been the team that is first to hand these teams their first points of the season, raging so i was but lets take that out on another of these annoying bad smells, ICT come calling next week so lets hope the player are right up for it.

[topcat]

For Falkirk, and particularly Dunfermline, this only really holds true when they're at Home. The last time Dunfermline won at Tynecastle was 10/Feb/1990.

 

The following day Nelson Mandela got released from Prison.

[Seymour M Hersh]

One thing we have suffered from is underestimating the physical flooded midfields that these teams play against us.

 

Because of our manager rotation/committee system we regularly field lightweight teams and never learn from previous problems.

 

So how do you account for the same results happening to us time after time for the 20/30 years pre-Romanov?

[Gabriel]

One thing we have suffered from is underestimating the physical flooded midfields that these teams play against us.

 

Because of our manager rotation/committee system we regularly field lightweight teams and never learn from previous problems.

 

Fully agree with the first point, but the problem predates our present incumbents. We sometimes need to accept that a combative midfield, consisting of perhaps three solid enforcers instead of a 'balanced' midfield, is more beneficial away from home. Too many points are allowed to slip, when closing out for a draw would have sufficed.

[Coco]

So how do you account for the same results happening to us time after time for the 20/30 years pre-Romanov?

 

For most of that 20-30 years we had a financial advantage which was less marked than in the past 10 years (that is financial advantage in being able to pay more than we could afford of course) compared to these so called lesser teams. Was a pretty level playing field in the 70s and early 80s.

 

Aberdeen in the early 80s didn't have a huge cash advantage over other teams but had Fergie taking them to trophies. Same at Dundee United. Doddy/Sandy were close to that for us. Exceptional management but that doesn't happen often.

 

Levein and Burley had most success for us in the last 10 years. But they had wage bills well higher than the 'best of the rest'.

 

The last 2 years have seen this procession of managers all falling into the same traps.

[magicTs]

So how do you account for the same results happening to us time after time for the 20/30 years pre-Romanov?

 

The fact we are generally nothing better than mediocre.

[Robbo27_22]

The way I see it, we're not ruthless enough as a club. Never have been, probably never will be.

 

We've had some great teams down the years but never had the backbone to deal with clubs like Airdrie, Falkirk, Livi etc.

 

The OF invariably beat them - whether by 1 goal or 10, it doesn't really matter. Winning is all that counts.

 

Had we done this down the years - OF dominance aside - our trophy haul would have been way out in the lead for 3rd place.

 

I'm thinking the league a couple of more times and probably 2 or 3 more scottish cups at least with possibly another couple of league cups - St Mirren in semi defeat still ranks as one of my most bitter disappointments.

[Seymour M Hersh]

For most of that 20-30 years we had a financial advantage which was less marked than in the past 10 years (that is financial advantage in being able to pay more than we could afford of course) compared to these so called lesser teams. Was a pretty level playing field in the 70s and early 80s.

 

Aberdeen in the early 80s didn't have a huge cash advantage over other teams but had Fergie taking them to trophies. Same at Dundee United. Doddy/Sandy were close to that for us. Exceptional management but that doesn't happen often.

 

Levein and Burley had most success for us in the last 10 years. But they had wage bills well higher than the 'best of the rest'.

 

The last 2 years have seen this procession of managers all falling into the same traps.

 

Sorry but that's no explanation at all as to why in my life time we have continually blown it against teams we just should not lose to. Has been happening since well before Vlad sold his first Beatles bootleg. So why?

[Coco]

Sorry but that's no explanation at all as to why in my life time we have continually blown it against teams we just should not lose to. Has been happening since well before Vlad sold his first Beatles bootleg. So why?

 

Why have we won games against clearly superior old firm teams? Just the other side of the same coin for one off games.

 

In general across seasons and trophies teams get what they deserve. Teams with more cash are generally towards the top of the league. Or teams with great management can sometimes buck the trend. And the same on the other side. Teams with little cash go to the bottom as do teams with rotten managers. Currently we have dwindling cash and a poor management system so we are trending downward.

[Seymour M Hersh]

The fact we are generally nothing better than mediocre.

 

That doesn't explain it either unless you are saying that these things just happen in football so we should all get over it.

 

If as you suggest we have never been better than mediocre as a club (I don't agree by the way) then the other teams, what were they? Worse than us better than us or also mediocre?

[Gigolo-Aunt]

Dont know if its Hearts are a sclap and the "smaller team" players get right up for it - in the same way that Hearts (usually) are up for OF games.

 

Its bloody annoying though.

[magicTs]

That doesn't explain it either unless you are saying that these things just happen in football so we should all get over it.

 

If as you suggest we have never been better than mediocre as a club (I don't agree by the way) then the other teams, what were they? Worse than us better than us or also mediocre?

 

I used the word 'generally' as of course there is the odd season (it seems to be around every ten) when we are clearly much better than mediocre and manage some sort of sustained assault on the SPL sometimes until decisions or luck starts to go against us but more realistically becasue we don't or can't add the required quality to the squad at the vital time.

 

More often though there is not a great deal between many of the 'best of the rest' SPL sides and I actually believe it's never been more evident than this season. Although I expect ourselves, Hibs, Aberdeen and Utd to end up the top six if you take out Rantic then anyone can pretty much beat anybody else on a given day. Of course we should be striving to avoid losing points to the perceived bottom six as much as possible and I believe we will have a much much better home record this season and hopefully not drop many points at all at Tynecastle. However away from home with the soft underbelly the team still has I would never be coinfident of a win.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Why have we won games against clearly superior old firm teams? Just the other side of the same coin for one off games.

 

In general across seasons and trophies teams get what they deserve. Teams with more cash are generally towards the top of the league. Or teams with great management can sometimes buck the trend. And the same on the other side. Teams with little cash go to the bottom as do teams with rotten managers. Currently we have dwindling cash and a poor management system so we are trending downward.

 

So you subscribe to the theory I put to MagicT's that it's football get over it?

[Coco]

So you subscribe to the theory I put to MagicT's that it's football get over it?

 

I think we should be the best we can be.

 

Try to bring in as much capital and revenue as possible and sensible, try to get the best manager and squad recruitment process we can, maintain the discipline of the players and officials, work as best we can on the fitness of the players, pick the best players available for any one game though with an eye to the challenges of the season and long term development etc.

 

The same as any other sensible team. Most sensible teams don't handicap themselves.

 

You will continue to get one off results. But over the course of seasons and competitions for the most part you will get what you deserve.

[gowestjambo]

...always been well up for a scrap against Hearts.

 

 

Add to that list Dundee, Dunfermline, Motherwell and Livingston.

 

 

They are all smaller teams than Hearts.

 

They are all within a reasonable proximity of Edinburgh.

 

They usually have some recent player or manager connection to Hearts.

 

And they somehow try and wangle some sort of derby-style grudge against us.

 

 

Examples of this include Motherwell's hatred of us which stems back to the early 90s when we went about 20 games unbeaten against us and there was a lot of stuff said by their players through the papers.

 

The Airdrie thing is more apparent. Packed full of ex-Hearts men, they've been a serious pain in the but about 17 years now. I don't think we've beaten them in over 10 games.

 

Dunfermline, with their army of replica strip wearing angst-ridden teenagers treat a game at Tynecastle like a derby.

 

And ditto that for Falkirk.

 

All this has cost us serious amounts of league points and potential cup success. I?m not what we can do to improve our record against these annoying little brothers of football teams because each new era of Hearts team goes into these games hopelessly under-prepared for both the mental and physical fight.

 

And it?s not just a Csaba and Vlad who?ve fallen foul to this. Add John Robertson, Sandy Clark, Henry Smith etc to this long list of woe.

 

Well organised, well up-for-it, in-your-face football goes a long way in this country.

 

Especially, it seems, if your opponents are Hearts. We?re like a red rag to a bull.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

I think we all echo these sentements, but why if these teams annoy us so much, can we not copy their mentality and do the same to the o/f?

 

This has always been a mystery to me why we should send the points by post when playing in glasgow, yet on the other hand allow the smaller teams to raise their game! We seem to be stuck in no mans land........

[Guest JamboRobbo]

So you subscribe to the theory I put to MagicT's that it's football get over it?

 

Nope, we should strive to do all we can to win each game. Have the best possible team available on the park to try and win the game. Maximise the chances, every week.

 

That is what infuriates me with the current set up at HMFC - that we frequently CHOOSE not to put the best team available on the park to try and win the game, but to instead put the best team on in order to give players a chance, or to develop youngsters, or to put players in the shop window etc etc.

 

Some individual games you get away with it, others you might play your best team and lose anyway. But over the course of the season, CHOOSING NOT TO PUT OUR BEST POSSIBLE TEAM ON THE PARK TO TRY AND WIN THAT WEEKS GAME, costs us points.

[WalterEgo]

Dont know if its Hearts are a sclap and the "smaller team" players get right up for it - in the same way that Hearts (usually) are up for OF games.

 

Its bloody annoying though.

I think it is aided by the fact that we seem to be so bloody easy to play against. These smaller teams with physical, if limited, players pack the midfield and they have us nailed. Surely a decent footballing side could nullify that, but we don't seem to be able to. 'Smaller' teams dictate the game to us -should be the other way round.

[Charlie-Brown]

Of course any SPL team is capable of beating most of the other teams but whilst we have had good to mixed results against the other teams WHY specifically do Falkirk at Falkirk and Airdrie at any venue cause us much more trouble over a prolonged period than other teams like Hibs, Aberdeen & Dundee Utd etc who are bigger clubs with more resources than Airdrie & Falkirk and who should cause us more bother...except they don't - we have worse records against the 2 smaller teams.

[Hearts Heritage]

I think we all echo these sentements, but why if these teams annoy us so much, can we not copy their mentality and do the same to the o/f?

 

This has always been a mystery to me why we should send the points by post when playing in glasgow, yet on the other hand allow the smaller teams to raise their game! We seem to be stuck in no mans land........

 

If only the facts backed you up.

 

Hearts have the best record vs the OF Home and Away since the SPL was formed. Admitedly not wonderful but the best of a bad bunch.

 

Away in SPL

 

rank team g w d l f a

 

1 Heart Of Midlothian 41 4 5 32 24 83

 

2 Hibernian 32 3 6 23 27 74

3 Dundee United 34 3 5 26 25 81

4 Dundee 25 3 1 21 21 73

 

5 Kilmarnock 36 2 3 31 20 97

6 Motherwell 35 2 2 31 14 81

6 Aberdeen 37 2 2 33 17 101

8 Dunfermline Athletic 28 2 1 25 12 87

 

9 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 12 1 3 8 7 23

10 St Johnstone 14 1 1 12 6 35

 

11 St Mirren 10 0 2 8 4 26

12 Livingston 16 0 1 15 12 48

12 Falkirk 10 0 1 9 7 30

14 Gretna 3 0 0 3 2 11

14 Partick Thistle 6 0 0 6 2 17

 

Overall

 

1 Heart Of Midlothian 79 12 11 56 63 160

 

2 Hibernian 66 9 14 43 59 135

 

3 Aberdeen 75 8 12 55 57 181

4 Motherwell 70 8 11 51 54 156

 

5 Dundee United 69 7 14 48 57 161

 

6 St Johnstone 28 5 3 20 18 60

 

7 Kilmarnock 72 4 10 58 48 170

 

8 Dundee 50 3 8 39 35 129

9 Dunfermline Athletic 56 3 7 46 35 162

10 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 24 3 6 15 19 44

 

11 Falkirk 20 2 2 16 13 46

 

12 Livingston 32 1 5 26 22 84

 

13 St Mirren 19 0 2 17 10 50

14 Partick Thistle 12 0 0 12 5 29

14 Gretna 6 0 0 6 4 18

[gowestjambo]

If only the facts backed you up.

 

Hearts have the best record vs the OF Home and Away since the SPL was formed. Admitedly not wonderful but the best of a bad bunch.

 

Away in SPL

 

rank team g w d l f a

 

1 Heart Of Midlothian 41 4 5 32 24 83

 

2 Hibernian 32 3 6 23 27 74

3 Dundee United 34 3 5 26 25 81

4 Dundee 25 3 1 21 21 73

 

5 Kilmarnock 36 2 3 31 20 97

6 Motherwell 35 2 2 31 14 81

6 Aberdeen 37 2 2 33 17 101

8 Dunfermline Athletic 28 2 1 25 12 87

 

9 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 12 1 3 8 7 23

10 St Johnstone 14 1 1 12 6 35

 

11 St Mirren 10 0 2 8 4 26

12 Livingston 16 0 1 15 12 48

12 Falkirk 10 0 1 9 7 30

14 Gretna 3 0 0 3 2 11

14 Partick Thistle 6 0 0 6 2 17

 

Overall

 

1 Heart Of Midlothian 79 12 11 56 63 160

 

2 Hibernian 66 9 14 43 59 135

 

3 Aberdeen 75 8 12 55 57 181

4 Motherwell 70 8 11 51 54 156

 

5 Dundee United 69 7 14 48 57 161

 

6 St Johnstone 28 5 3 20 18 60

 

7 Kilmarnock 72 4 10 58 48 170

 

8 Dundee 50 3 8 39 35 129

9 Dunfermline Athletic 56 3 7 46 35 162

10 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 24 3 6 15 19 44

 

11 Falkirk 20 2 2 16 13 46

 

12 Livingston 32 1 5 26 22 84

 

13 St Mirren 19 0 2 17 10 50

14 Partick Thistle 12 0 0 12 5 29

14 Gretna 6 0 0 6 4 18

 

I appreciate all the hard work you have put into this, however sorry to rain on your parade, but a measly 10% win ratio against the o/f is as we know pathetic! Now if we only lost to 10% of the diddy teams I would be quite happy.......

 

Without having hours to devote I would be pretty confident that we have the worst record as a percentage against other Premier teams when facing lowly opponents! (Gretna, Montrose, Ross County, Livingston, Airdrie, Falkirk etc (By the way I would also hazard a bet no other team of our stature lost 6-0 to Falkirk!)

 

I look forward to your response when you find your calculator.......

[topcat]

I appreciate all the hard work you have put into this, however sorry to rain on your parade, but a measly 10% win ratio against the o/f is as we know pathetic! Now if we only lost to 10% of the diddy teams I would be quite happy.......

 

Without having hours to devote I would be pretty confident that we have the worst record as a percentage against other Premier teams when facing lowly opponents! (Gretna, Montrose, Ross County, Livingston, Airdrie, Falkirk etc (By the way I would also hazard a bet no other team of our stature lost 6-0 to Falkirk!)

 

I look forward to your response when you find your calculator.......

According to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Premier_League

We're about 22 wins better over 11 seasons than the next team (Kilmarnock)

Hearts: 378 156 92 128

Kilmarnock: 378 134 92 150

Aberdeen: 378 133 87 156

etc..

Subtracting the Old Firm Results from those figures gives us this table

(Sorted by Points Per Game)

Team                           Pld   W   D   L   F   A  GD Pts PPG
Hearts                         299 144  81  72 483 290 193 432 1.44
Inverness CT                   102  47  33  22 150  66  84 141 1.38
Hibernian                      274 117  69  88 425 345  80 351 1.28
Kilmarnock                     306 130  82  92 421 373  48 390 1.27
Aberdeen                       303 125  75 101 401 366  35 375 1.24
Motherwell                     308 112  74 120 400 423 -23 336 1.09
Falkirk                         94  34  22  38 116 122  -6 102 1.09
St. Johnstone                  116  38  38  40 117 116   1 114 0.98
Dundee                         234  75  58 101 290 352 -62 225 0.96
Dunfermline                    246  75  72  99 260 321 -61 225 0.91
Dundee United                  309  92  87 128 347 425 -78 276 0.89
St. Mirren                      95  26  27  42  79 127 -48  78 0.82
Livingston                     166  45  40  82 186 262 -76 135 0.81
Partick Thistle                 64  14  19  31  71  96 -25  42 0.66
Gretna                          32   5   8  19  28  65 -37  15 0.47

 

The Table based on Points per game against the Old Firm Shows that if anyone is good against the Old Firm but ****h against the rest it's Hibs and

Dundee : 0.64

Livingston : 0.63

Hibernian : 0.62

Hearts : 0.59

Dundee United : 0.51

Motherwell : 0.50

Aberdeen : 0.48

Falkirk : 0.40

Inverness CT : 0.34

Kilmarnock : 0.31

Dunfermline : 0.29

St. Johnstone : 0.25

St. Mirren : 0.11

Partick Thistle : 0.00

Gretna : 0.00

[topcat]

I should add that the above figures aren't 100% reliable as the Wikipedia table contains some minor errors where the games Played doesn't exactly match the total of Won, Drawn and Lost.

 

The point remains though that Our record against the rest is pretty strong and infact it's the Verdant Warrior poets of our Dockside suburb whose relatively good record against the Old Firm is out of all proportion to their inability to pick up the easier points against the rest. From memory I think they even picked up some results against the OF on their way to relegation in '98.

 

As for the statement that "I would also hazard a bet no other team of our stature lost 6-0 to Falkirk!" That is of course in a way accurate in that none of those teams will have suffered a similar humiation against that specific opponent by that specific scoreline.

 

However a trawl through the history of any team will dredge up a few shockers, especially if you're willing to go back two decades; Hibs losing to Stranraer at Home and Aberdeen losing to Queens Park spring to mind. It's just that they're not so fresh in our memory.

 

In fact this availability bias explains a lot.

 

Defeats against lowly teams and wins against lofty opposition stick in your mind more by their very nature

 

This means that unless you look at the cold statistics it's natural to form the impression that there have been more of them than is in fact the case.

 

There was a good article about this in the New Scientist a couple of weeks ago. Although that tended to use example like Air Travel being seen as more dangerous than Road Travel because Air Crash fatalities make the news.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

The bottom line is that generally smaller teams see Hearts as a "scalp" and raise their game. If Hearts want to continue to be the biggest club outside the old firm then we should get used to it.

 

Saturday's game against Falkirk was not really any different to any Celtic or Rangers game v Falkirk I have seen on TV, the difference is that the old firm tend to have forwards who can take advantage of half-chances to win the points or the old firm get the benefit of a dodgy call to take the game. It has ever been thus!

[topcat]

However a trawl through the history of any team will dredge up a few shockers, especially if you're willing to go back two decades; Hibs losing to Stranraer at Home and Aberdeen losing to Queens Park spring to mind. It's just that they're not so fresh in our memory.

 

According to Soccerbase:

Aberdeen lost 5-0 away to Saint Johnstone in 1990/91

[Hearts Heritage]

 

1

 

I should add that the above figures aren't 100% reliable as the Wikipedia table contains some minor errors where the games .....

...

 

2

 

 

There was a good article about this in the New Scientist a couple of weeks ago. Although that tended to use example like Air Travel being seen as more dangerous than Road Travel because Air Crash fatalities make the news.

 

1

I have the 'exact' data I'll calculate the correct figures.

 

2

Totally correct People remember us losing to Forfar at home in the Cup but then forgot we went unbeaten for 20 years after that at home.

 

A wee quiz question. Statistically what is Hearts 'worst' defeat ever in the Scottish Cup based on differences in league position? A wee clue Hibs lost at home the same day to Edinburgh City.

[gowestjambo]

1

I have the 'exact' data I'll calculate the correct figures.

 

2

Totally correct People remember us losing to Forfar at home in the Cup but then forgot we went unbeaten for 20 years after that at home.

 

A wee quiz question. Statistically what is Hearts 'worst' defeat ever in the Scottish Cup based on differences in league position? A wee clue Hibs lost at home the same day to Edinburgh City.

 

Don't know the answer to the quiz but chanks for the info in advance....

 

ps I still think we lose to smaller clubs too often.........

[Guest jambomickey]

i was gutted on saturday losing to falkirk but we got to forget it and move on! as far as i'm concerned i'm just looking forward to winning against inverness on saturday

[Hearts Heritage]

SPL excluding OF ordered by points ratio

 

 

rank team g w d l f a points_ratio

1 Hamilton Accies 5 3 0 2 7 5 18000

2 Heart Of Midlothian 334 151 84 99 488 370 16077

3 Kilmarnock 338 136 89 113 448 436 14704

4 Hibernian 301 121 78 102 446 396 14651

5 Aberdeen 336 129 79 128 424 456 13869

6 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 133 49 36 48 172 156 13759

7 Falkirk 99 35 22 42 121 124 12828

8 Motherwell 338 117 78 143 428 497 12692

9 Dundee 242 80 58 104 295 360 12314

10 Dunfermline Athletic 268 75 76 117 272 386 11231

11 Livingston 166 48 42 76 189 239 11204

12 Dundee United 340 95 92 153 371 498 11088

13 St Johnstone 148 39 43 66 139 200 10810

14 St Mirren 106 27 28 51 85 150 10283

15 Partick Thistle 64 14 19 31 71 96 9531

16 Gretna 32 5 8 19 28 65 7187

[Hearts Heritage]

Excluding this season

 

rank team g w d l f a points_ratio

1 Heart Of Midlothian 330 148 84 98 480 364 16000

2 Hibernian 296 119 77 100 440 390 14662

3 Kilmarnock 334 133 88 113 444 436 14580

4 Aberdeen 332 127 79 126 421 452 13855

5 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 128 47 35 46 166 151 13750

6 Falkirk 96 34 22 40 116 118 12916

7 Motherwell 334 116 77 141 424 492 12724

8 Dundee 242 80 58 104 295 360 12314

9 Dunfermline Athletic 268 75 76 117 272 386 11231

10 Livingston 166 48 42 76 189 239 11204

11 Dundee United 336 95 91 150 368 490 11190

12 St Johnstone 148 39 43 66 139 200 10810

13 St Mirren 102 26 27 49 82 146 10294

14 Partick Thistle 64 14 19 31 71 96 9531

15 Gretna 32 5 8 19 28 65 7187

[topcat]

So what was the Quiz answer?

[Gibbo]

My recollection from the MacDonald and Jordan eras is that, apart from Cup Semi Finals, we mostly beat the smaller clubs but had an appalling record against the Old Firm and a mediocre one versus Aberdeen. Obviously there were some exceptions, such as Dens in 86, but overall it was the poor results against the other leading clubs that stopped us winning trophies in that period. Unlike others above, however, I've not come up with figures to support my view.

[Hearts Heritage]

So what was the Quiz answer?

 

Surprisingly enough it was a 3-1 defeat at Dundee United.

 

There were 32 places between Hearts who finished runners up and DU 34th.

 

 

Read reports here

[Charlie-Brown]

Statistically are our records versus Falkirk away and against Airdrie anywhere significantly worse than say trips to Pittodrie, Easter Road or Tannadice?

[Hearts Heritage]

All away games in top division excluding OF

 

rank team g w d l f a points_ratio

1 Heart Of Midlothian 1871 651 447 773 2925 3142 12827

2 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 64 20 20 24 77 79 12500

3 Aberdeen 1697 538 427 732 2320 2752 12027

4 Dundee United 930 293 210 427 1182 1534 11709

5 Hibernian 1826 533 411 882 2485 3245 11007

6 Motherwell 1705 471 406 828 2219 3024 10668

7 Alloa Athletic 33 9 6 18 35 57 10000

8 Dundee 1542 389 373 780 1950 2868 9987

9 Third Lanark 983 261 194 528 1432 2215 9938

10 Partick Thistle 1451 362 315 774 1851 2859 9655

11 Kilmarnock 1395 338 332 725 1686 2760 9648

12 East Fife 240 60 51 129 322 551 9625

13 Clyde 1121 284 221 616 1541 2503 9571

14 Livingston 84 20 19 45 89 139 9404

15 Airdrieonians 1125 271 238 616 1407 2401 9342

16 St Johnstone 710 161 174 375 859 1453 9253

17 Falkirk 1266 290 270 706 1588 2676 9004

18 Dunfermline Athletic 666 151 143 372 783 1338 8948

19 St Mirren 1560 348 323 889 1863 3325 8762

20 Morton 1006 217 216 573 1201 2153 8618

21 Dumbarton 363 82 65 216 469 852 8567

22 St Bernards 78 19 8 51 121 237 8333

23 Cowdenbeath 215 48 35 132 306 583 8325

24 Ayr United 644 130 131 383 773 1559 8090

25 Kings Park 15 4 0 11 25 52 8000

25 Cambuslang 20 4 4 12 27 47 8000

27 Queen of the South 349 68 67 214 415 905 7765

28 Raith Rovers 673 132 118 423 776 1547 7637

29 Queens Park 809 157 133 519 1027 2025 7466

30 Hamilton Accies 780 151 121 508 931 1916 7358

31 Clydebank(1) 135 24 24 87 148 302 7111

32 Albion Rovers 238 37 47 154 293 657 6638

33 Renton 29 3 8 18 47 88 5862

34 Arbroath 175 22 34 119 179 488 5714

35 Port Glasgow 120 16 19 85 104 314 5583

36 Leith Athletic 76 11 9 56 99 247 5526

37 Clydebank 58 6 11 41 34 129 5000

38 Boness 19 3 0 16 21 59 4736

39 Gretna 17 1 5 11 12 38 4705

40 Stirling Albion 179 18 29 132 171 535 4636

41 Abercorn 38 4 3 31 55 149 3947

42 Stenhousemuir 14 1 1 12 23 69 2857

43 Cowlairs 9 0 2 7 5 23 2222

44 East Stirlingshire 36 2 0 34 43 126 1666

45 Vale Of Leven 20 0 1 19 21 120 500

[Hearts Heritage]

Statistically are our records versus Falkirk away and against Airdrie anywhere significantly worse than say trips to Pittodrie, Easter Road or Tannadice?

 

10 GAMES OR MORE IN LEAGUE

 

rank OPP_team g w d l f a points_ratio

1 Stirling Albion 14 11 2 1 39 14 25000

2 Arbroath 13 9 2 2 35 19 22307

3 Cowdenbeath 12 8 2 2 24 12 21666

4 Albion Rovers 14 9 2 3 29 21 20714

5 Queen of the South 25 15 6 4 63 32 20400

6 East Fife 17 9 3 5 31 23 17647

7 St Johnstone 56 26 14 16 101 72 16428

8 Dunfermline Athletic 54 25 12 17 93 72 16111

9 Raith Rovers 46 21 11 14 92 59 16086

10 Motherwell 123 54 23 46 211 198 15040

11 Hibernian 130 50 40 40 206 177 14615

12 Clyde 72 28 20 24 142 136 14444

13 Airdrieonians 71 28 18 25 128 123 14366

14 Ayr United 40 15 11 14 57 48 14000

15 Morton 62 23 17 22 94 103 13870

16 Queens Park 51 18 16 17 92 92 13725

17 Dumbarton 31 11 9 11 61 55 13548

18 Third Lanark 64 25 8 31 117 124 12968

19 Hamilton Accies 51 20 5 26 93 97 12745

20 Falkirk 84 27 24 33 138 151 12500

21 St Mirren 104 33 27 44 147 175 12115

22 Dundee 105 33 27 45 152 169 12000

23 Aberdeen 119 39 24 56 144 195 11848

24 Dundee United 72 21 21 30 88 108 11666

25 Partick Thistle 93 25 27 41 134 166 10967

26 Kilmarnock 98 24 28 46 131 166 10204

27 Rangers 142 25 21 96 147 301 6760

28 Celtic 142 20 35 87 148 303 6690

[leginten]

26 Kilmarnock 98 24 28 46 131 166 10204

 

That record against Killie is astonishingly honking. I'd never have picked Rugby Park out as our third worst away venue.

[Hearts Heritage]

That record against Killie is astonishingly honking. I'd never have picked Rugby Park out as our third worst away venue.

 

Including Cup games

 

rank OPP_team g w d l f a points_ratio

1 Stirling Albion 19 16 2 1 52 18 26315

2 St Bernards 13 10 0 2 36 12 23076

3 Queen of the South 33 22 6 4 83 39 21818

4 Arbroath 15 10 2 3 40 21 21333

5 Albion Rovers 14 9 2 3 29 21 20714

6 Cowdenbeath 15 9 2 3 26 13 19333

7 Livingston 11 6 2 3 19 13 18181

8 East Fife 24 13 3 8 46 37 17500

9 Raith Rovers 57 28 11 18 107 72 16666

10 St Johnstone 63 30 14 19 115 80 16507

11 Dunfermline Athletic 61 28 12 21 103 80 15737

12 Clydebank 10 4 3 2 19 8 15000

13 Motherwell 139 60 25 53 238 227 14748

14 Airdrieonians 86 36 18 31 157 149 14651

15 Clyde 88 36 20 31 172 158 14545

16 Hibernian 146 57 40 47 230 202 14452

17 Ayr United 44 17 12 15 66 56 14318

18 Morton 71 28 17 24 110 112 14225

19 Queens Park 58 21 18 19 100 100 13965

20 Third Lanark 71 29 8 33 135 140 13380

21 Dumbarton 37 13 10 13 68 59 13243

22 Hamilton Accies 59 24 6 29 104 110 13220

23 Falkirk 95 33 26 36 165 167 13157

24 Dundee 124 40 29 53 182 204 12016

25 Aberdeen 135 44 25 66 162 226 11629

26 St Mirren 121 36 32 50 168 199 11570

27 Partick Thistle 106 30 31 44 155 183 11415

28 Dundee United 82 24 21 36 106 131 11341

29 Kilmarnock 117 31 30 54 159 192 10512

30 Celtic 160 25 35 98 171 343 6875

31 Rangers 160 26 21 111 160 347 6187

[Hearts Heritage]

Here is Hibs record

 

rank OPP_team g w d l f a points_ratio

1 Stirling Albion 17 12 1 4 41 23 21764

2 Albion Rovers 21 15 0 6 53 25 21428

3 Port Glasgow 10 5 4 1 17 12 19000

4 East Fife 21 12 3 6 52 32 18571

5 Clydebank 14 7 4 3 26 13 17857

6 Queen of the South 30 15 5 10 63 43 16666

7 Arbroath 13 6 3 3 30 23 16153

8 St Johnstone 59 25 15 19 84 76 15254

9 Ayr United 46 18 12 16 71 77 14347

10 Queens Park 53 23 6 24 91 109 14150

11 Third Lanark 69 29 10 29 117 99 14057

12 Raith Rovers 55 22 11 19 87 75 14000

13 Falkirk 94 34 26 34 145 142 13617

14 Hamilton Accies 56 21 12 21 92 91 13392

15 Airdrieonians 82 31 10 41 164 162 12560

16 Clyde 77 27 15 35 136 144 12467

17 Morton 73 24 18 30 122 121 12328

18 Dunfermline Athletic 63 19 20 21 101 96 12222

19 St Mirren 115 36 30 47 158 176 12000

20 Dundee United 90 26 24 38 104 127 11333

21 Dumbarton 29 9 5 13 45 49 11034

22 Kilmarnock 105 31 21 53 139 179 10857

23 Motherwell 133 38 30 63 182 235 10827

24 Partick Thistle 110 32 18 56 170 194 10363

25 Heart of Midlothian 146 36 36 69 188 260 9863

26 Aberdeen 138 34 29 72 141 265 9492

27 Dundee 117 29 23 63 142 202 9401

28 Cowdenbeath 12 3 2 6 16 19 9166

29 Celtic 151 20 32 96 139 338 6092

30 Rangers 163 23 27 111 134 373 5889

[shaun.lawson]

To answer the OP's point: I think it's because all other non-OF clubs tend to view us as having delusions of grandeur. We're the only club that consistently believes we can challenge the OF; and are quite fond of the 'third force' tag too. Heck, whenever Hearts are 3rd in the league (assuming it's behind the uglies), I tend to feel warm and fuzzy and that all is right with the world.

 

So the others tend to give up the ghost against the OF before a ball is kicked. Meanwhile, because we talk ourselves up and tend to be their only possible threat, the gruesomes raise their game and are more focused against us than against the Caley Thistles of this world. But sorry folks: while we are the third biggest club in Scotland, the margin we have over Aberdeen and Hibs in this is tiny compared with the enormous gap the OF have over us; and while we may have something of a financial and fanbase advantage over the others, there's no logical reason why this should translate into constant, routine wins home and away against them.

 

We should certainly beat them more often than they do us, and finish above them in the league a lot more often too. This, indeed, is precisely what we do. But finish way ahead of them? Put together OF-style records against the 'other nine'? It just ain't gonna happen.

[Bruno]

Including Cup games

 

rank OPP_team g w d l f a points_ratio

1 Stirling Albion 19 16 2 1 52 18 26315

2 St Bernards 13 10 0 2 36 12 23076

3 Queen of the South 33 22 6 4 83 39 21818

4 Arbroath 15 10 2 3 40 21 21333

5 Albion Rovers 14 9 2 3 29 21 20714

6 Cowdenbeath 15 9 2 3 26 13 19333

7 Livingston 11 6 2 3 19 13 18181

8 East Fife 24 13 3 8 46 37 17500

9 Raith Rovers 57 28 11 18 107 72 16666

10 St Johnstone 63 30 14 19 115 80 16507

11 Dunfermline Athletic 61 28 12 21 103 80 15737

12 Clydebank 10 4 3 2 19 8 15000

13 Motherwell 139 60 25 53 238 227 14748

14 Airdrieonians 86 36 18 31 157 149 14651

15 Clyde 88 36 20 31 172 158 14545

16 Hibernian 146 57 40 47 230 202 14452

17 Ayr United 44 17 12 15 66 56 14318

18 Morton 71 28 17 24 110 112 14225

19 Queens Park 58 21 18 19 100 100 13965

20 Third Lanark 71 29 8 33 135 140 13380

21 Dumbarton 37 13 10 13 68 59 13243

22 Hamilton Accies 59 24 6 29 104 110 13220

23 Falkirk 95 33 26 36 165 167 13157

24 Dundee 124 40 29 53 182 204 12016

25 Aberdeen 135 44 25 66 162 226 11629

26 St Mirren 121 36 32 50 168 199 11570

27 Partick Thistle 106 30 31 44 155 183 11415

28 Dundee United 82 24 21 36 106 131 11341

29 Kilmarnock 117 31 30 54 159 192 10512

30 Celtic 160 25 35 98 171 343 6875

31 Rangers 160 26 21 111 160 347 6187

 

Some really interesting stuff there, its great to be able to say that a trip to Dumbarton or Queen's Park is statistically more risky for us than a trip to Easter Road!

 

To be honest I don't think theres much in this subject at all. Every team has bad runs against certain other teams that last a wee while. Hibs record at Cowdenbeath, Rangers struggling with Dundee Utd for a good few seasons, Arsenal going almost a decade unbeaten against Chelsea through the late 90's and early 00's, our own 22 in a row etc etc.

 

People seem to have forgotten that in 2006 in our Champions League run-in we got a crucial 3 points at the Falkirk Stadium with a jammy winning goal from Jankauskas, having thrashed them 5-0 earlier at home. The 6-0 game was a fluke result, signifying a great amount of disharmony in the playing staff. Other than that, our record at Falkirk is pretty much the same as our record everywhere else.

 

In the grand scheme of Scottish football we're much closer to the likes of Falkirk than we are to Rangers and Celtic, and yet from the jist of this thread we ought to be winning at least 10 away games every season. Given that in a good year Celtic or Rangers will win 15 and in an average year they'll win about 12 away games, for me its a pretty big ask for us to be getting close to championship form every season, especially since we haven't managed 10 away wins since 91-92, and only very rarely before that all the way back to the glory era. We have no right to just turn up and win at the Falkirks and Kilmarnocks of this world.

 

I do really wonder where these expectations come from, we've only won 2 trophies in the last 50 years.

[Hearts Heritage]

hOME rECORDS

rank OPP_team g w d l f a points_ratio

1 Clydebank 16 13 3 0 36 11 26250

2 Arbroath 14 11 3 0 39 13 25714

3 Queens Park 57 45 7 4 180 61 24912

4 Hamilton Accies 57 45 5 7 157 61 24561

5 Stirling Albion 21 16 3 2 64 22 24285

6 Raith Rovers 55 41 8 5 129 48 23818

7 Albion Rovers 16 11 5 0 47 14 23750

8 Third Lanark 70 51 10 9 194 85 23285

9 Cowdenbeath 16 11 4 1 47 26 23125

10 Dunfermline Athletic 61 42 13 6 139 48 22786

11 St Bernards 14 10 1 1 41 15 22142

12 Falkirk 98 65 15 18 250 109 21428

13 Queen of the South 26 17 4 5 54 30 21153

14 Morton 73 46 12 14 174 70 20547

15 Dumbarton 37 24 4 8 92 44 20540

16 Clyde 90 55 15 17 231 96 20000

17 Dundee 122 73 24 22 242 134 19918

18 Airdrieonians 85 51 15 17 208 105 19764

19 Partick Thistle 107 64 17 25 215 122 19532

20 Ayr United 48 29 6 12 116 58 19375

21 St Johnstone 65 36 17 11 132 73 19230

22 St Mirren 121 67 30 21 254 107 19090

23 Kilmarnock 114 63 27 21 212 106 18947

24 Motherwell 138 75 33 28 277 158 18695

25 East Fife 24 13 5 5 72 33 18333

26 Dundee United 83 45 17 18 136 84 18313

27 Aberdeen 129 61 38 28 210 142 17131

28 Hibernian 146 69 36 36 260 188 16643

29 Celtic 160 57 32 69 212 256 12687

30 Rangers 157 42 37 78 192 264 10382

 

Hibs

 

rank OPP_team g w d l f a points_ratio

1 Alloa Athletic 15 13 1 0 49 7 26666

2 Port Glasgow 10 7 3 0 32 11 24000

3 East Fife 25 19 1 4 57 26 23200

4 Stirling Albion 16 12 1 2 52 13 23125

5 Queens Park 52 38 5 9 134 54 22884

6 Clydebank 14 10 2 1 33 10 22857

7 Clyde 77 53 11 13 196 92 22077

8 Ayr United 44 30 5 9 98 47 21590

9 Dunfermline Athletic 64 40 15 8 154 63 21093

10 Raith Rovers 57 38 6 10 127 57 21052

11 Cowdenbeath 11 7 2 2 28 9 20909

12 St Mirren 119 75 23 20 260 136 20840

13 Morton 79 50 14 15 191 87 20759

14 Dumbarton 32 20 6 6 79 47 20625

15 Third Lanark 68 43 11 13 192 86 20588

16 Partick Thistle 113 70 20 18 262 106 20353

17 Falkirk 95 59 16 19 209 107 20315

18 Arbroath 16 10 2 4 43 18 20000

18 Airdrieonians 83 50 16 17 216 103 20000

20 Queen of the South 30 18 5 7 81 36 19666

21 Hamilton Accies 52 32 6 14 127 71 19615

22 Dundee 119 69 25 22 232 130 19495

23 Albion Rovers 18 10 5 3 45 23 19444

24 Kilmarnock 106 60 24 22 217 116 19245

25 Motherwell 135 68 35 30 244 153 17703

26 St Johnstone 57 28 13 16 137 81 17017

27 Dundee United 87 40 23 22 135 91 16436

28 Aberdeen 150 61 38 47 242 201 14733

29 Heart of Midlothian 146 47 40 57 202 230 12397

30 Celtic 156 41 39 74 189 282 10384

31 Rangers 157 39 43 74 181 239 10191

[topcat]

Any chance of doing these breakdowns on a slightly more modern timescale as opposed to all time.

I'd suggest since our return to the top flight

[Hearts Heritage]

Any chance of doing these breakdowns on a slightly more modern timescale as opposed to all time.

I'd suggest since our return to the top flight

 

I'll split them up by 'Era' when I'm back home.

[Hearts Heritage]

What is interesting is that Hearts and Hibs 'worst' home records after the OF are each other. Not really surprising but is shows how 'up' they are for it.

[Charlie-Brown]

What is interesting is that Hearts and Hibs 'worst' home records after the OF are each other. Not really surprising but is shows how 'up' they are for it.

 

Any chance of re-posting some of the various stats you kindly posted above but using 1983-84 season as the base date? I'd like to see how well or otherwise we've in the modern era since we regained & cemented our SPL status 25 years ago.

[Hearts Heritage]

Since 1983, 6 games or more

 

Away

 

rank OPP_team g w d l f a points_ratio

1 Hamilton Academical 6 6 0 0 14 2 30000

2 St Johnstone 21 12 6 3 36 20 20000

3 Livingston 11 6 2 3 19 13 18181

4 Motherwell 48 25 10 13 71 51 17708

5 Raith Rovers 7 3 3 1 11 8 17142

6 Dunfermline Athletic 31 16 5 10 44 30 17096

7 St Mirren 25 10 11 4 37 31 16400

8 Partick Thistle 14 5 6 3 14 12 15000

8 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 6 2 3 1 6 3 15000

8 Clydebank 6 2 3 1 9 4 15000

11 Hibernian 48 16 19 13 62 55 13958

12 Dundee 34 11 12 11 34 38 13235

13 Kilmarnock 34 11 10 13 41 40 12647

14 Dundee United 46 14 14 18 50 51 12173

15 Aberdeen 53 16 13 24 55 86 11509

16 Falkirk 21 7 3 11 28 37 11428

17 Celtic 53 7 15 31 44 101 6792

18 Rangers 55 4 9 42 32 107 3818

 

Home

 

rank OPP_team g w d l f a points_ratio

1 Clydebank 9 8 1 0 19 4 27777

2 Dunfermline Athletic 29 23 4 2 64 18 25172

3 Partick Thistle 15 12 1 2 26 11 24666

4 Falkirk 22 16 4 2 45 13 23636

5 Raith Rovers 7 5 1 1 14 7 22857

6 Motherwell 49 28 16 5 92 37 20408

7 Kilmarnock 33 19 10 4 60 30 20303

8 Dundee United 47 27 12 8 75 39 19787

9 Hibernian 46 25 16 5 72 39 19782

10 Livingston 9 5 2 2 16 12 18888

11 Dundee 33 17 8 8 61 38 17878

12 St Mirren 28 14 8 6 41 18 17857

13 Aberdeen 50 24 12 14 66 48 16800

14 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 8 4 1 3 10 9 16250

15 St Johnstone 21 8 8 5 34 27 15238

16 Rangers 53 15 12 26 65 94 10754

17 Celtic 55 15 11 29 56 91 10181

 

All games NB includes Neutral venues

 

rank OPP_team g w d l f a points_ratio

1 Hamilton Academical 10 10 0 0 27 4 30000

2 Morton 9 7 1 1 15 5 24444

3 Clydebank 15 10 4 1 28 8 22666

4 Dunfermline Athletic 60 39 9 12 108 48 21000

5 Partick Thistle 29 17 7 5 40 23 20000

5 Raith Rovers 14 8 4 2 25 15 20000

7 Motherwell 98 53 26 19 165 91 18877

8 Livingston 20 11 4 5 35 25 18500

9 Falkirk 44 24 7 13 76 51 17954

10 St Johnstone 43 20 14 9 70 50 17209

11 Hibernian 95 42 35 18 138 94 16947

12 St Mirren 54 24 19 11 79 51 16851

13 Kilmarnock 67 30 20 17 101 70 16417

14 Dundee United 96 42 26 28 128 95 15833

15 Dundee 68 29 20 19 98 77 15735

16 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 14 6 4 4 16 12 15714

17 Aberdeen 105 41 25 39 123 138 14095

18 Celtic 110 22 26 62 102 196 8363

19 Airdrieonians 12 2 4 6 11 15 8333

20 Rangers 115 20 21 74 104 219 7043